Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: WK154 on September 26, 2013, 09:45:09 PM
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According to a poster on Mackies Facebook site with all fx, eq, compressor, etc. processing in full use the DSP (400Mhz dual core Sharc) is utilizing about 25% of it's processing power. That should leave lots for a real-time FFT for setup etc.
"I just found an interview with Dimitri Metzeltin from Mackie's Loud Technologies Inc.. He said, if all DSP features, EQs, COMPs., REV., DELs are ON, only 25% of the DSP - power is used and there is enough power for big upgrates . HOPE IS RAISING !"
He also stated in the interview that fader groups are possible or at least high on the list for implementation.
My translation
bonedo: Aber die schon angekündigte Fadergruppierung wird auch für mehr als zwei Fader gleichzeitig möglich sein?
bonedo: Is it possible that the just announced fader grouping can handle more than two faders simultaneously?
Dimitri Metzeltin: Genau. Neben dem reinen Stereo-Pairing wird man auch Fadergruppen bilden können, und Mutegruppen natürlich genauso. Auch das steht ganz oben auf der Liste.
Dimitri Metzeltin: Exactly. Aside from the pure stereo pairing one can construct fader groups as well as mute groups. These are high on our list.
What you can't read German?
In case you can here's the interview.
http://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/mackie-dl1608-ein-blick-hinter-die-kulissen/2.html
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That's pretty interesting if it is accurate. I wonder if that was a deliberate ploy such that they could add additional features or whether they were going to use the hardware platform for a bigger device, i.e. a replacement of the 824 Live?
Either way we can hopefully influence them to improve the Efx and implement some real-time FFT for feedback identification.
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He is the product manager for Mackie, Ampeg, Crate and runs Loud Germany. Top of the food chain and former techie for them. The interview was done in Feb. of this year. It also makes sense from my evaluation of the DL hardware capability.
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WK, with your understanding of the DSP, how far could they push the DL? More elaborate effects / greater number of effects / more analysis tools and automation?
Or perhaps look at it from the other side and what are the limitations of the hardware?
Thanks!
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All of the above. As I stated before the current DSP cycle is 1.5 milliseconds in which it has to do it's work. This is clock controlled and the amount of idle time is unknown to me. If this is considered 100% utilization and it's at 25% then there is plenty of reserve power. It is generally accepted that 3 milliseconds is the limit before the human ear/brain notices any difference (time). This gives another 100% of processing time to the DSP. However I believe that the first limitation would be the code space. I have no way of knowing how close they are to their 32MB limit at present and Mackie certainly won't release that info so it's a WAG (WildA--Guess).
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Just ran into some info on the DSP's in the X32. They are 266Mhz that's slower than the DL's 400Mhz. Two DSP 21371 which makes sense since there are 32 channels in the X32. That should put DL capability into more of a perspective including more recording channels. Haven't taken my X32 apart to see the logic processor used. Probably wait for the rack for that.
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The question of what could it do has been around for a while and this was not meant to be even remotely useful for someone trying to program it. Strictly for growth potential which of course depends solely on Mackie since they chose to be so secretive about this product. Got to do something to keep the blood flowing.
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Just FYI my Phonic Summit mixer has 9 DSP's...
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So does my XDM along with 2 other cpu's and a FPLA. It has a delay of 150 microseconds compared to the DL's 1500 microseconds and these are only 150 - 160Mhz units. So it's hard to tell performance from just specs.
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The X32 internals are not quite laid out yet but here an interesting article that unveils some of the mystery. The OS is a home brewed real time OS geared specifically to this product. This is more efficient since you can concentrate on the specific audio tasks instead of general purpose multitasking. They also state that the DSP's are at 90% utilization but they can add more. I think they can also upgrade to higher performance units like Mackie did without incurring a major board layout. How's your German?
http://www.xound.com/profi-statements-zum-x32/christian-stahl-und-thomas-zint-von-behringer.html
This should put to rest the speculation on what's running the X32. Still need more of the key chips inside besides the DSP's.
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Another piece of the puzzle came into view and it's now known what the brains behind the X32 is. It is a Feescale Mc253 a 400 Mhz ARM 9 based cpu with lots of capability along the lines of the AD Blackfin. So once again ask yourself why the DL with more capable hardware is lagging behind? Maybe it's time to give Graham Jordan "Circuit Whisperer" a call and have him explain things. He's the digital design engineer at Mackie.
The specs for this CPU is here:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX253&fsrch=1&sr=4&pageNum=3
enjoy.
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Can I suggest that because overly optimistic hardware specs are the norm, that Mackie decided not to push any of the chips they picked. That sure leaves a lot of options to improve Master Fader with. If they abandon MF, I want them to open it up to volunteer development. On the other hand, if they keep improving it, they will have me as a friend for a very long time.
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Wynnd I not sure what you mean by overly optimistic specs they are what they are. The reason Mackie is not mentioning what the DL is made from is their paranoid concern that someone will copy them. :lol: That's why I had to take mine apart to find out what they were using. I first tried to get that from Mackie without success. It's all about a companies attitude toward it's customers and in Mackie's case that's not pretty. Just read how they're currently treating D8B customers with a price tag once 10x the DL.
http://www.d8bforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=928&start=210
You'll never see them open up code.
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Wynnd I not sure what you mean by overly optimistic specs they are what they are. The reason Mackie is not mentioning what the DL is made from is their paranoid concern that someone will copy them. :lol: That's why I had to take mine apart to find out what they were using. I first tried to get that from Mackie without success. It's all about a companies attitude toward it's customers and in Mackie's case that's not pretty. Just read how they're currently treating D8B customers with a price tag once 10x the DL.
http://www.d8bforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=928&start=210
You'll never see them open up code.
I followed that link WK, that's an hour I'll never get back lol!
I would hope (for my own sake) that the DL hardware has this redundancy of power built in to allow for new feature sets for a few years. I'm hoping it's deliberate rather than an "accidental" over speccing of the processors.
The time and money Mackie has invested in bringing the DL to manufacture, surely they would see major feature changes/updates as a way of keeping the DL current?
I'm not a tech like some of you guys, but isn't there more flexibility/longevity with current DL type components, modular architecture and the iPad interface, than there ever could be with a console like the D8B?
Having said that, this is a relatively cheap product for a digital mixer. Who would expect to get 10 years from it (or customer support for that matter) in any revision considering the current pace of technology?
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Yep, both points are valid. The ability to add "more stuff" is great, but being bound so tightly to Apple, the timeline for future development and overall viability is an unknown.
Hardware wise, we've already seen a new connector, the "mini" and the "air". In software we've seen IOS7 cause problems. Every time Apple makes a move Mackie is forced to drop what their doing and engineer a fix. This costs time and money that could otherwise be spent on development of the firmware, Masterfader and Myfader.
I still contend that the concept is the best blend of capability and simplicity. I just wish the connectivity and IOS bugs could be fixed. It's tough to know who to even point the finger at as you have multiple hardware and software vendors developing completely independently.
As for competition, there's really only 1 that's in the exact same space and it's not yet available (Behringer X18). I have a feeling the Behringer X18 isn't fully baked and is still several months away from release, which is good and bad. Good because Mackie has time to improve their product. Bad because if Behringer ends up making the ipad "dockable", the inclusion of multi-track recording capability at more less the same price point as the DL1608 is a pretty serious blow. In fact, everything else being equal, it would be hard to justify purchasing the Mackie at that point.
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There are a lot of complaints about only using the ipad, but I think I understand why it is the preferred tablet. Apple is much more consistent with their products than any other OS. Sure there are some changes, but compared to the amazing variety of tablets that run Android from various manufacturers, Apple is nearly a single point of light. I've long thought that this was one of the problems Microsoft had. Attempting to make a single OS to run on thousands of different types of hardware. It's really amazing that they've managed as well as they did, but today, it seems that Windows runs better on Apple hardware than it generally runs on other manufacturers.
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There are a lot of complaints about only using the ipad, but I think I understand why it is the preferred tablet. Apple is much more consistent with their products than any other OS. Sure there are some changes, but compared to the amazing variety of tablets that run Android from various manufacturers, Apple is nearly a single point of light. I've long thought that this was one of the problems Microsoft had. Attempting to make a single OS to run on thousands of different types of hardware. It's really amazing that they've managed as well as they did, but today, it seems that Windows runs better on Apple hardware than it generally runs on other manufacturers.
I'm perfectly fine with the ipad concept... obviously as I own the DL1608. It doesn't come without obstacles though. Before the digital mixer revolution, manufacturers had complete control of the entire process. Analog doesn't have the bells and whistles, but it's also void of the baggage that comes with multiple 3rd parties and technologies all needing to play nice to make a reliable product. There are now so many points of possible failure along the way. Beyond the hardware and software of the mixer and ipad there's also router performance and wireless interference to contend with. This year at NAMM another batch of 2.4 Ghz wireless mics came out from Alesis and Behringer. I suspect in 5 yrs the 5 Ghz space will be equally as dodgy.
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Very good points. Maybe some of the higher priced manufacturers will build their own tablet. NAWWW. They'll take existing products off the shelf. We're going to be looking at ipads for a very long time. By the way, I don't have any of the problems listed. ios 7 has been fine. Now I don't use the ipad as a music source very often, so maybe I just haven't run into the white noise issue yet. (And I don't use it for music during gig breaks. Might try using air-play and my iphone, but most of the clubs we play in want the juke box running during breaks.)
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No white noise issues for me and I use the docked iPad for BGM every time the DL is used.
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Back on topic I feel that Mackie is sitting in a Ferrari in the middle of the freeway out of gas. They're just about to get rear-ended by a bunch of other company cars. Unfortunately Mackie has a long history of outsourcing their software or not keeping their talent at home. The last casualty being Traction. So what's the point of producing a Ferrari if you can't afford the gas. By their own admission they are using 25% of the DL's resources so wouldn't it be nice if they just bumped that up to 50%.
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Ferrari? Really? Lol.
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Well a Ferrari engine in an El Camino body. A big engine is great, but they can't do anything about lack of inputs/outputs routing, hardware expansion options. If I needed those things though I would have looked elsewhere.
I'd like to see some of the processing that the StageScape M20d has. Specifically, multi-band compression is pretty sweet. I got audition that mixer and the processing DSP is top notch. It just had enough quirks and lack of auxes that I ultimately chose the Mackie.
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Well a Ferrari engine in an El Camino body. A big engine is great, but they can't do anything about lack of inputs/outputs routing, hardware expansion options. If I needed those things though I would have looked elsewhere.
Agreed that there is a lack of I/O considering the engine capability but there is soooo much more that can be done with the existing I/O. Internally adding more effects, cleaning up their UI etc. They could also have made it compatible with their own MCU pro control interface via the 30 pin/N connector via USB or made a more compact version. There certainly was a lack of vision on where this mixer could go.
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Robbo to answer your previous question:
I'm not a tech like some of you guys, but isn't there more flexibility/longevity with current DL type components, modular architecture and the iPad interface, than there ever could be with a console like the D8B?
The D8 series is far more flexible than the DL will ever be. The reason is simple the D8 was based on a PC mobo and Mackies efforts would be centered around preamp's and A/D D/A converters and communication to other control surfaces and of course the software. The PC industry is better at producing motherboards than other industries (lower cost). New products come on a weekly basis. Many mixers such as Midas, Digico, Avid etc. have proven the viability of this approach as have many other industries. The only reasons I can think of for not continuing that line is that their software talent left them or not enough sales volume. They are currently selling the V5.1 D8B software upgrade but can't deliver because of authorization issues. This would take a competent software engineer that knew the system all of a day to fix. None exist at Mackie willing to do the job.