Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: troy mcclure on August 02, 2015, 07:22:25 PM
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I have been using my DL1608 mostly docked. There is a venue that must have an issue with power as my interface locks and lags if I am docked.
I have no issues when I am using my router and un-dock. Can anyone speculate what the issue might be? Underpowered or something else?
I suspect if the voltage is too low adding a power conditioner would not help me, is that correct?
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Hi Troy! Is this the only venue you've had that issue at?
It could cause an issue, but I believe the power supply is good for global voltages, so it would have had to have been really low to affect the DL and your other equipment would have probably suffered more. Given there is a bit of a reputation for the mixer to have issues docked (believed to be due to the interference on the charging circuit), it could also just be that? Was the iPad low on charge?
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I rather doubt it would help. Most power conditioners will only prevent a surge, and if the power is too low a
conditioner won't "add" voltage to your system.
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Hi Rdmitch,
Good quality UPS units will compensate for under/over voltage:
http://www.surgex.com/products/ups+protection-product-line.html
Furman makes voltage regulators that supply a constant 120V or 240V:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=P-1800AR
But having a mixer with good power isn't particularly helpful if the rest of your system doesn't have a reasonably decent AC power supply.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
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A UPS may work because it has battery power that can "create" power , however most UPS systems I've seen only provide power upon failure of main power. They don't supplement low power by adding a little more when building is a little under powered.
A power conditioner, as the original poster referred to will not create voltage if there is insufficient
building power. I believe most regulators will only catch a spike and bring it down to safe voltage to prevent a burnout.
If the OP is concerned about building power being to low I doubt a power conditioner is the answer.
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This is the only venue I cannot leave the Ipad docked. The 1st time I played there with my DL1608 was my 1st gig with the 1608 and I used my backup analog board as I thought my unit was defective. I also play the outside stage at this venue with no issues on a different circuit. Next time I play there I will try and extension cord to different outlet.
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Hi Troy,
Use a basic outlet tester and voltage meter to test the venue outlet.
Running an extension to another outlet might work, but watch out for ground loop issues.
You may want to consult a local electrician...
Rdmitch,
You are correct that most 'power conditioners' don't boost voltage, but the Furman voltage regulators do.
Also, while many UPS units run only on mains OR battery, some have voltage regulation, like the SurgeX unit noted.
And all of the double-conversion UPS units, that have a charging circuit constantly charging a battery, and
the battery constantly supplying a 120V(or 240V) inverter, provide stable voltage.
Of course these units are bigger, heavier and more expensive.
I use very basic 4# Tripplite InternetOffice300 UPSs on my digital boards, DSP and router.
This is enough to keep everything going if there is a very short term power interruption.
Past that, the amps don't have power and everything stops till power is restored.
Many basic UPS units aren't happy on generator power:
As voltage swings, they go in to battery-supply mode, sit there beeping, and can in fact totally drain the battery.
Here's where a double-conversion UPS, or an inverter-based generator are good solutions.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
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So, just to confirm, the Furman P-1800 AR can boost voltage when needed? How does it do that without a battery? Capacitors, I'm assuming? The reason I ask is because I have another stage device that is prone to problems when the power is dirty or otherwise unstable. I'm hoping that by connecting it to the Furman P-1800 I can have some peace of mind. The failure doesn't occur very often, but often enough that I'd gladly dump seven hundred bucks on the Furman unit if it will solve my problem...
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Totally agree that a devise that supplements power may be the ticket to a unstable house system.
My discrepancy is the Surgex item referenced is not a power conditioner, it, is a UPS and costs more than the DL1608.
So the original post asking if a power conditioner ( as most of us are used to using) would solve the problem is not really an solution.
The Furman I believe only clamps down the power and will not add or increase power if incoming voltage is too low. I could be wrong but according to Furman:
NOTE: Furman’s P-1800 PF R does not compensate for high or low AC line voltage. If you frequently move your rack to different loca- tions, derive power from generators, use excessively long extension cords, travel internationally, or are in an area prone to brownouts, you may benefit from the use of one of Furman’s AC Line Voltage Regulators.
I wish I could buy something like the surgex since I run into crappy power on a regular basis.
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You can easily change voltage without affecting wattage. (Which is voltage x amperage.)
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Rdmitch the X-surge is of course the best solution since it handles brownouts the Furman does control output voltage(124Vac) with a input range of 90-139Vac. The Furman has no battery hence cannot handle brownouts. Both units cost more than the DL1608 ($900-1300). I use a setup ( for a different reason, no external wires) that will easily run the DL and router (requires a 12V input router such as the Netgear 4200 etc.) for 7hrs or more. I use a PowerSonic long life battery (claimed 10 yrs but realistically 5 yrs) for the cost of $85 plus a charger for SLA batteries (a must don't use a car battery charger) at $29 (list $112). The DL is directly powered by the battery (retire the Mackie incorrect power supply, source of the pin one problem). Still run a drain wire from the DL chassis to house ground if possible. The OP may have brownouts or voltage below ~90Vac which is causing the lockups.
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Hi Rdmitch,
From the Furman P1800 AR web page:
"Approximate Input Voltage Capture Range: 97 to 137 VAC
True RMS Voltage Regulation delivers a stable 120 volts of AC power to protect equipment from problems caused by AC lne voltage irregularities."
I have used these and watched the voltmeter bounce between 119 and 121V.
I certainly agree, a Double-Conversion UPS or Furman Voltage Regulator is an expensive solution!
WK154,
This appears to be a very smart solution for any of us; a fairly inexpensive way to have good power to the mixer and router.
Can you please post pictures of your setup?
Exactly what model battery and charger are you using?
How long will this setup run without the charger?
Where are you making the chassis ground connection?
Thanks and good health, Weogo
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But having a mixer with good power isn't particularly helpful if the rest of your system doesn't have a reasonably decent AC power supply.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
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That is true, except the rest of our gear runs flawlessly on the power. I suspect the DL1608 is more picky. I don't run huge amounts of gear.. the board 2 powered tops and bottoms ( class d amps) a class D bass amp, 3 powered monitors and 2 LED light bars.
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So, just to confirm, the Furman P-1800 AR can boost voltage when needed? How does it do that without a battery? Capacitors, I'm assuming?
The Furman AR series use multi-tap auto transformers to step up or step down input voltage relative to the input voltage. Substantial voltage sag on a given circuit usually indicates other problems (inadequate wire gauge, loose connection, etc). But for low draw gear, it can be a helpful solution. If you're plugging in high draw devices that suck current, a regulator can only do so much. You can't squeeze water from a rock ;)
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WK154,
This appears to be a very smart solution for any of us; a fairly inexpensive way to have good power to the mixer and router.
Can you please post pictures of your setup?
Exactly what model battery and charger are you using?
How long will this setup run without the charger?
Where are you making the chassis ground connection?
Thanks and good health, Weogo
I will post the info next week, right now I'm in Phoenix enjoying the 115F heat. :) That's at 6PM. Bet none of the DL or XR's would survive this. Attending the International YWIH Rising Star contest. If any of you ever get here be sure to visit MIM (Musical Instrument Museum) a one of a kind, they have 15,000 different instruments in their inventory and display about 6000 at one time. It takes most of the day to get thru.
Cheers
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Well here is the rehearsal hall equipment with "no cables".
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/viruwv9ar2spzrj/AAC8PwygA2kKuhqj3I2wN18qa
The overview with music stand for 4 up and room for two iPad's or other gear. Detaches and folds up and is stored on the side for transportation (Velcro straps).
Front cover still in place gets removed and stored in back held by magnets.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/3t0fkhgosi9f3ws/AAAB61lhk-sCobuQz5KUDUn3a
Side view showing wireless EV mic, amplifier with Bluetooth and line input, all of 90 Watts @ 4 ohms. That's 22 Watts per channel at 8 ohms. Can't max it in a 33 x 40 ft. room without complaints about being too loud. :)
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/or7hqdt92la4o2g/AAAPHUSzLh62HDDOrnTUpg9ta
Other side showing essential water bottle and Starbucks holder, and the necessary voltmeter. Luggage rack retractable handle for transportation. Mic stand for handheld.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/nujk7l0supd9ftm/AAD1Cx70e79ql3Wi3rz-ipBva
Speaker removed to show battery. JBL CBT-70J speaker makes a significant difference for this application.
Battery used is Powersonics.
http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/sla_batteries/pg_series/PG-12V35_11_Jan_12.pdf
Battery charger used is this (normally $115).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261496834288?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Volt meter is this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180483445095?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
As to how long this will run without a recharge depends on the load off course. The current draw is around 0.8 amps with max I've seen of around 1.2 amps. The continuum of sound going thru the system will make a significant impact. This unit ran without a charge for three days of ~ 8hrs of on time per day at a chorus retreat YMMV. If you're looking to power a DL1608 and WiFi gear it will draw about 2-2.5 amps. I would suggest a 40 or 50 AH battery if you need to run for 8 hrs. This one is 35 AH. I would not discharge the battery below 12V. See the discharge curve from the spec sheet. For grounding see the pin one discussion on this forum.If you need a sub I would put it on it's own battery.
Cheers
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For a previous evaluation of DL1608 on battery see http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=465.0
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Hi WK154,
Thanks so much!
Am going to look in to the possibility of using a small 1# battery that is on a charger all the time.
But gotta have clean power.
The bigger battery, DC-only option looks good for some generator gigs.
Good health, Weogo
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UPDATE:
After a dozen or so gigs in the venue from my original post the problem has been solved. The issue was that the docked board would not react correctly when I tried to change any settings, it just go a bit wonky. The Neon Light bar sign transformers were interfering with the interface on the DL1608 somehow. My last gig this weekend, we unplugged the neon beer signs and the Mackie worked like a charm.
My previous work around was making sure that the I turned on the board and synced to a my go to preset with nothing muted before I go to the gig. Very nerve racking as all my volume adjustments were only input gains and physical speaker volumes on my powered speakers.