Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Greg C. on January 23, 2014, 06:16:04 PM
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http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X18.aspx
Says "Buy Now" on the page. Wonder if it's really ready to ship though the link doesn't really take you anywhere yet...
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Note: There is still no mention of any ability to connect the iPad wired.
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http://www.behringer.com/assets/X18_PID.pdf
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Note: There is still no mention of any ability to connect the iPad wired.
It has a USB B type connector which implies that the X18 will be the traditional slave in a USB environment. I would expect control from the tablet/laptop master. I hope they have 5GB frequency capability in their build-in WiFi. Then there is also the Ethernet connector another wired path which pretty well covers all bases. As always the devil is in the details as we all have found out with the DL.
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And what be these X-Touch (Mixers ?):
http://www.behringer.com/NAMM/index.aspx
Finally a replacement for their BCF2000's control surface for DAW's and possible other uses. Can you say x32 rack etc. for those that want physical faders.
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All the new 'ringer crap:
http://www.behringer.com/landing/beh_namm_landing.html
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Someone on SoundForums.net posted a map of $799 for the X18. If that's in fact the price that Mackie will have to respond to once their sales are impacted. My prediction is quite simple and I've stated this before the Dl1608 should be $699 and the DL806 should be at $499. The follow on in the present price range should be the DL1608/806 Pro with the following very real possibilities with the current hardware. 24/96-192 processing with 16/8+ channel recording but only using the new Thunderbolt connection (upgradeable). That by the way would be playing catchup with an 11yr. old product known to some of you as the Yamaha O1V96. That's a real technology improvement :) at a new price point. Of course the software would still have to catch up with the rest of their competition as best they can. They can also choose to go the way they've done with the last 3 digital mixers and call it a day. ;D
I'm selling mine before the price drop so I won't get hit to bad.
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http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X18.aspx
Says "Buy Now" on the page. Wonder if it's really ready to ship though the link doesn't really take you anywhere yet...
I think by now we know that any of the announced product won't see shipment until his new factory in China is up and running and that at best is August 2014. That means most of this stuff won't be here until shortly before Christmas 2014.
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Let's stop using the term DL killer. I plan to use mine until I stop doing this stuff. (I'm 60 and 15 years looks about as far out as I would consider likely.) The X18 looks interesting, but I'm not buying one. I still don't trust anything with that brand on it. Maybe someday, but not now or anytime soon. (And my DL1608 has been working just fine.) I also can't afford to be cavalier about upgrades. Someday this stuff will be easily affordable. It was a pretty large expenditure for me. (With retirement looming and two cars that are more than 15 years old and have more than 400,000 miles between them. At least the house is paid off now.)
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The X18 looks interesting, but I'm not buying one. I still don't trust anything with that brand on it.
Yet you trust Mackie???
I'm guessing thousands of X32 owners might disagree with you....
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Trusting Mackie? Yea that was a bit of a hurdle for me before I decided to purchase it. I had had a CFX-12 that Aux 2 went out on. Inconvenient, but not a show killer. The MixWiz has never been anything except perfect. (Had that for nearly 6 years.) This is part of my problem with items made in China. The Apple products have been great. The MixWiz great. My trailer, not so much. Its better than my first experience with Japanese products. Japan has really gotten their act together and I haven't had anything less than great from them in a couple of decades. Every car I've purchased new built in the USA has had something wrong with it. (Even my Toyota built in Kentucky. Fixed under warranty, but it's inconvenient.) Every car I've purchased built in Japan has been perfect well through it's warranty. (And then some.)
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Mackie's powered speakers have a bad rep with the guys in repair shops. "Much worse than Behringer's powered speakers" was the 'whispered' statement I was given by the guy who does all warranty work for the two brands in my state. I had a Behringer 812NEO which needed a minor warranty repair.
Lately I've been using Turbosound Milan M15s as mains for the DL1608 gigs. I like them a lot - great for music where sound quality is the goal, rather than raw SPL. Nothing like Nexo or other high end systems of course, but amazing value and (therefore) easier to quote competitively and easier to trade profitably.
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Here is an overview of the x18 and a source of the pricing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFavQZYvB9g
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Here is an overview of the x18 and a source of the pricing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFavQZYvB9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFavQZYvB9g)
Notice the interviewer asks if there is any way to power the ipad from the mixer and the guy gets all squirrely and says "no, not as of now, we just have it sitting right here".... then doesn't take a breath before moving on to "additional features".
So can't power the ipad, can't dock the ipad (if you could they'd be sure to mention it). So super, they have built in wi-fi, but you have to drag along a PC and connect via ethernet to be sure you can mix. And I will bet money it's 2.4 Ghz only. Again, they'd mention it if it did 5 Ghz.
So no, not a Mackie killer in my eyes. .... I just wish the DL could multi-track. (and didn't have the bugs it does).
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...no Greg, it hasn't arrived and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it either!
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Here is an overview of the x18 and a source of the pricing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFavQZYvB9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFavQZYvB9g)
Notice the interviewer asks if there is any way to power the ipad from the mixer and the guy gets all squirrely and says "no, not as of now, we just have it sitting right here".... then doesn't take a breath before moving on to "additional features".
So can't power the ipad, can't dock the ipad (if you could they'd be sure to mention it). So super, they have built in wi-fi, but you have to drag along a PC and connect via ethernet to be sure you can mix. And I will bet money it's 2.4 Ghz only. Again, they'd mention it if it did 5 Ghz.
So no, not a Mackie killer in my eyes. .... I just wish the DL could multi-track. (and didn't have the bugs it does).
As I've mentioned before the devil is in the details which we don't have yet. Making ass-u-me-pitons is silly at best. The features that are important to you may be irrelevant to others. Where is the plug for the Airport express or some other AP on the DL? I guess that's a tradeoff then. What is however significant is that this is the second mixer in the under $800 price range something Mackie will have to address once the units ship. This will of course be a while but it will happen. You will have to admit that it has more features than the DL some of which will be deal-makers for others. As to the "Killer" aspect Mackie doesn't need any help in that department their doing just fine by themselves with their service responses.
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Meh, that's what forums are for when discussing vaporware :) .
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In chatting about the iX16 on another forum where Uli participates I brought up the point that the MixWiz has an additional stereo input for break music that I'd sorely miss - dunno if I get credit for that change or not LOL.
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In chatting about the iX16 on another forum where Uli participates I brought up the point that the MixWiz has an additional stereo input for break music that I'd sorely miss - dunno if I get credit for that change or not LOL.
No that was JL as well lolz
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In any case hopefully Mackie is watching these new products and doing what they can to compete. Adding PEQs to the outputs is a big step up IMO :) .
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In any case hopefully Mackie is watching these new products and doing what they can to compete. Adding PEQs to the outputs is a big step up IMO :) .
It's all going the right way that's for sure.
You would know better than me, but I'm hoping there's plenty of horsepower still left under the DL's hood!
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In any case hopefully Mackie is watching these new products and doing what they can to compete. Adding PEQs to the outputs is a big step up IMO :) .
It's all going the right way that's for sure.
You would know better than me, but I'm hoping there's plenty of horsepower still left under the DL's hood!
You might want to read this regarding horsepower.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=595.0
The X32 is pushing 90% utilization compared to Mackie's 25% according to their respective techies. Time will tell what's under the hood of the x18.
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In any case hopefully Mackie is watching these new products and doing what they can to compete. Adding PEQs to the outputs is a big step up IMO :) .
I wonder if the LPF made it to the input channels or did the required mod to the UI stop them? I think they also need to add a few more PEQ's if your substituting it for the graphic Eq for feedback control.
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I took the video to mean that the aux PEQs were in addition to the 31 band EQ. (Would hate to lose that. It's great for feedback control.)
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I suspect it'll be either/or with the PEQ/GEQ on the outputs.
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I think they also need to add a few more PEQ's if your substituting it for the graphic Eq for feedback control.
Four notch filters ought to be enough, no?
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I wonder if the LPF made it to the input channels or did the required mod to the UI stop them?
Should be some simple cut&paste so I hope they do :) .
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They flat out say in the video you'll have both graphic and PEQ
"In addition to the graphic EQ you now have 4 bands and a high pass filter and a low pass filter"
Note too the HPF and LPF now have selectable slopes of 6, 12, 18, 24 db per octave.
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Also the addition of the HPF means you can better use the mixer as a crossover when running aux fed subs. It would be nice though if they added a feature that allowed one main output to be lows and the other highs and you swipe a crossover point. Sure it would mean mono PA, but many are anyway and would allow yet another piece of rack gear to disappear from some rigs.
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Also the addition of the HPF means you can better use the mixer as a crossover when running aux fed subs. It would be nice though if they added a feature that allowed one main output to be lows and the other highs and you swipe a crossover point. Sure it would mean mono PA, but many are anyway and would allow yet another piece of rack gear to disappear from some rigs.
If they were able to implement HPFs on the outputs, it should have been trivial to add LPFs on the outputs as well. Another misstep. That said, the general consensus in the pro world as that the speaker processing shouldn't be in the mixer. But logistically, there no reason to not put that functionality in there these days. It could certainly come in handy.
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Also the addition of the HPF means you can better use the mixer as a crossover when running aux fed subs. It would be nice though if they added a feature that allowed one main output to be lows and the other highs and you swipe a crossover point. Sure it would mean mono PA, but many are anyway and would allow yet another piece of rack gear to disappear from some rigs.
If they were able to implement HPFs on the outputs, it should have been trivial to add LPFs on the outputs as well. Another misstep. That said, the general consensus in the pro world as that the speaker processing shouldn't be in the mixer. But logistically, there no reason to not put that functionality in there these days. It could certainly come in handy.
I'm not following. They DID add LPF to the outputs (auxes and mains) and also added variable slopes.
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Ah, my mistake. So you can do a full crossover. High pass the main outputs for the tops at 24dB per octave, low pass the aux send to the subs the same.
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I think they also need to add a few more PEQ's if your substituting it for the graphic Eq for feedback control.
Four notch filters ought to be enough, no?
Even the lowly DSP110 Sharc from B has 12 filters. I would go for 8 min. It depends on how hard you want to push it and of course the room acoustics as to how many filters you will need.
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Closer scrutiny of the video shows that the LPF didn't make it into the input channels. Yes Ben states that the new feature is in addition to what you already have but that doesn't mean you can use it simultaneously. V2.1 will clear all this up and I hope it's concurrent usage. I just hope it won't be a replay of "we're thoroughly testing it before release" for another month or so. Somebody hold his hands down. He'll still be able to talk he's not Italian. :)
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I just hope it won't be a replay of "we're thoroughly testing it before release" for another month or so.
Are you seriously expecting anything else? They had nothing good to bring to Namm. This is all they could put together for it. It's just a dummy 2.1 program. They really should just stay home. It's like the old saying, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". For Mackie it should be "if you don't have anything nice to show, don't show anything at all".
They'll never learn their lesson.
And I know someone here will quote me. FYI, I do have plenty of nice things to say. I just can't think of any that apply to mackies marketing decisions.
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Ah, my mistake. So you can do a full crossover. High pass the main outputs for the tops at 24dB per octave, low pass the aux send to the subs the same.
Be aware you may have to set the frequencies differently to get them to sum flat. I've eyeballed it to 110 Hz on the tops and 95 Hz on the subs for 24dB/octave BW filters to put both at -6dB @ 100 Hz so that they sum properly - The typical LR filters used in crossovers are spec'd at the -6dB points so this is automatic but other filters are usually spec'd at the -3dB point.
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You're preaching to the choir. I've been aligning systems for over 20 years. That said, unless your tops are sitting right on your subs the tops and subs will never sum flat except in one spot in a given room. If your tops are flown or your subs center clustered, They're gonna comb somewhat.
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Regarding the release date. Although this doesn't seem like as big a release as the last one, I would expect a considerable lag. The only reason they released the video now is because it's NAMM week. Without that specific event they could release it more on their time table, which still would typically be well ahead of actually releasing.
Personally I say stop adding features and get the damn thing stable.
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Personally I say stop adding features and get the damn thing stable.
+1 I hate selling something to anyone when I know it's broken.
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I'm looking for a backup for cheap ;D .
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I am new here, so please bare with me? I have been looking at the Behringer pix of the x18 and didn't notice any facility for 48V phantom power anywhere on the unit. Did I miss it? 'Cause if there is no phantom for condenser mics, this is a big fail. Hope I'm wrong, because this one looks like it has potential. Of course this all depends on if it will be released in a reasonable amount of time, or released at all. Fingers crossed!!!
Thanks for reading! 8)
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I am new here, so please bare with me? I have been looking at the Behringer pix of the x18 and didn't notice any facility for 48V phantom power anywhere on the unit. Did I miss it? 'Cause if there is no phantom for condenser mics, this is a big fail. Hope I'm wrong,
Yup, you are ;) - phantom is switched in the app and is per-channel.
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Thank you Road Ranger!!
That's excellent to know. It actually makes good sense to control phantom through the app and individual phantom on each channel. How cool is that? Someone else (M....e) should take note!
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Feature wise, the X18 is everything the DL should have been. I wonder when they're going to ship that thing. Technically it's already 2 years behind schedule since it was originally the X16 and then the iX16. Tick tock...
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Feature wise, the X18 is everything the DL should have been. I wonder when they're going to ship that thing. Technically it's already 2 years behind schedule since it was originally the X16 and then the iX16. Tick tock...
Don't pass out holding your breath ;) . And everyone should realize how fast technology is evolving - the DL1608 was the best they could do at the time to have a product they could actually ship. It's easy to outdo it with a vaporware product LOL - and I'd certainly expect a product that starts shipping this summer/fall two long years after the DL1608 to be more advanced. OTOH Mackie has a lot they can do to the DL1608 to keep it competitive with 2-4 firmware updates a year :) .
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There was a BoobTube posting at NAMM of the Midinger rep from Germany saying it would be available "later this year." We shall see...
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I posted the link here where he says September/October.
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Feature wise, the X18 is everything the DL should have been. I wonder when they're going to ship that thing. Technically it's already 2 years behind schedule since it was originally the X16 and then the iX16. Tick tock...
Don't pass out holding your breath ;) . And everyone should realize how fast technology is evolving - the DL1608 was the best they could do at the time to have a product they could actually ship. It's easy to outdo it with a vaporware product LOL - and I'd certainly expect a product that starts shipping this summer/fall two long years after the DL1608 to be more advanced. OTOH Mackie has a lot they can do to the DL1608 to keep it competitive with 2-4 firmware updates a year :) .
What exactly can Mackie do to keep competitive with the x18? Can they add programable mic pre's? No. Can they add a USB 18/18 interface? No. Can they add built in wifi? No. Can they add ultranet? No. Add two channels? No. Built in power supply? No. MIDI I/O. No. 2 more effects engines and 100 band rta? Probably not. Etc...
They will have to drop the price. That's being competitive. For the lack in features it will have to drop below the $799 price point of behringer.
I am not knocking Mackie for this. It's simply an issue of the evolving digital world. The digital boards are computers. When a computer comes out they are state of the art and possibly revolutionary. But they are constantly being replaced by new technology. When you walk out of a store with a computer it is already being outdated. The smart companies make their products upgradable but hardware has it's limitations.
Think about this. The dl was revolutionary in my opinion. But even during the development process it was already outdated. They developed the dock based on 30 pin and before multi tracking to the iPad was possible. This changed long before the dl was released. This was a big mistake.
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What exactly can Mackie do to keep competitive with the x18? Can they add programable mic pre's? No.
No :(Can they add a USB 18/18 interface? No.
If they can get multichannel recording working to the iPad that would make them competitive IMO Can they add built in wifi? No.
The competition doesn't have it either ;)Can they add ultranet? No. Add two channels? No. Built in power supply? No. MIDI I/O. No.
I think all that is relatively unimportant, YMMV. 2 more effects engines and 100 band rta? Probably not.
I'm actually pretty sure they could, or at least 31 band RTA to show you which band to pull down when you have feedback. At the very least I hope they soon allow the delay FX to be switched to a second 'verb.
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Midinger announced that the X18 has a built in WiFi router. So no external device needed to add that functionality.
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Midinger announced that the X18 has a built in WiFi router. So no external device needed to add that functionality.
We'll see when it finally ships in Junetember ;) .
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I'm thinking they have to have it because at this point they've shown no direct connection to the iPad, unless i've missed something (which is likely).
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Behringer did say that the USB in will offer direct control. They also added wifi for a very simple reason. No need for an external router. And you plug in one standard iec cord and you're good to go. Of course they also left in the option to add an external one if you want.
Here's another one for you RR. Can the dl be controlled by devices other than an iPad? No. All behringers can use an iPad, PC, and soon android.
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Thanks for the additional info Jerrylee. Good to know.
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We'll see - so far the iX16/X18 are a nice smoke show ;) .
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And how long was the dl1608 a smoke show?
I think your jealous of the x18. Mackie is probably jealous too. Behringer did a smart thing by pulling the iX16 and redesigning it. They were probably reading these forums, mackies own uservoice, and listening to all the complaints about the dl1608.
Rr you seem like a smart guy and probably pretty tech savvy. I can almost guarantee you will be out of your dl soon. I know for some it is all they really need and want. So what's the point in changing? But you don't strike me as one of those people.
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Behringer did say that the USB in will offer direct control. They also added wifi for a very simple reason. No need for an external router. And you plug in one standard iec cord and you're good to go. Of course they also left in the option to add an external one if you want.
Here's another one for you RR. Can the dl be controlled by devices other than an iPad? No. All behringers can use an iPad, PC, and soon android.
Hey Jerry you need to be more current the Android app been around since last year.
http://www.andreaskormann.at/xmonitor/
And the DL can be controlled by anything as soon as Mackie publishes their "secret sauce" communications protocol or somebody else decodes it. What is puzzling is the three position switch to select WiFi, Ethernet or AP wired. Most network chips have auto-sensed polarity for at least a decade already.
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Slightly off topic but was just checking out the x32 rack here in the UK (£1178)
Going by the pictures it doesn't seem to have any jack inputs apart from aux inputs - surprised at that.
Being offered with a 3 year warranty but expensive compared to your $ price.
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Slightly off topic but was just checking out the x32 rack here in the UK (£1178)
Going by the pictures it doesn't seem to have any jack inputs apart from aux inputs - surprised at that.
Being offered with a 3 year warranty but expensive compared to your $ price.
It would be nice if they had the combo jacks. But there are still six 1/4 ins.
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No product will be killing the DL1608. (Hate the thread title.) Replacing? probably for some people. (Not me anytime soon. I don't change things that quickly and I'm happy with the DL.) Namm always has stuff shown that never comes out and some stuff that doesn't work as well as it looked like it did. It's also a place where we can all find out where the industry is generally headed.
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Wynnd, if (when) a consumer is standing in a music store looking at the mackie dl1608 and the x18, and is deciding which one to buy, do you really think they are going for the dl? Do you think anyone will send them in that direction? 90% plus of even the most basic consumer would go for the x18. It will KILL the dl1608 sales. Mackie would have to seriously reduce its price to compete and that would then KILL their profit margin. They would also have to replace the current dl with a new model and KILL off the current one. Get my point? It will, as the tittle implies, be a dl1608 killer.
Yeah, I know, you love your dl. But it's what you have now. If you didn't have the dl1608, and you were the consumer standing in front of both mixers, which one would you buy?
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^ We'll see where the DL1608 is feature-wise when the X18 ships. You may very well be right, although there are a LOT of people that like Mackie over Behringer. I suspect V2.1 within a month and that leaves time for V3 shipping when the X18 does :) .
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RR I still believe you will move on from the dl1608. How many mixers have you owned in your life? The dl will not be the last. And you know it.
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RR I still believe you will move on from the dl1608. How many mixers have you owned in your life? The dl will not be the last. And you know it.
Probably, although I'm getting up there in years :-\ . I still have my Phonic Summit (with the 16 channel USB I/F) and even my old Mackie 1604VLZ-PRO when I'm feeling nostalgic ;D .
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I know there are already better mixers out there, to some degree or other, than the DL.
I was chomping at the bit to get my hands on a QU-16 but now the urgency has eased for me. The DL is doing what I need right now just fine.
People (musicians & interested audience members) are usually amazed at what the DL can do, and I'm often complimented on my sound.
When I get to the stage that I have to offer something the DL can't do, I'll buy the tools I need.
I won't buy a Midas if an A&H will do the job or a QSC for that matter. I won't spend 5000 if I can do the job by spending 1500.
There will be lots of "DL killers" to come in the foreseeable future, that's for sure.
For me the DL has been a "Killer" too...
I sold off two (less than 3yr old) Presonus desks, a MixWiz, a PA20, an old Soundcraft desk, a few ropey B'ringer spares and a stack of outboard gear not long after buying the DL.
Reason why? They weren't getting used any more.
Initially I wasn't that enamoured with the DL and the iPad interface but it has improved, I've adapted and it has grown on me.
I've NEVER turned around mixers as fast as I've done over the last 3-4 years. My mixers were usually changed when they became unreliable or unrepairable.
Buying a new mixer because it's new usually won't yield a quantum leap in what I can offer sound-wise. I'll still do a good job with a MixWiz if that's what's in front of me.
All this tech is great - I love it - but the man at the console is much more important and harder to upgrade!!
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About 2 years ago after using a Presonus Studio Live 24.4.2, my Wife asked me if I wanted one. It's a nice mixer that I'm comfortable using, but it's not rack mountable, I don't need 24 channels and the price was more than I wanted to spend. When I saw the DL1608 last August, I immediately saw the advantages in my life and it has been the first mixer to give me G.A.S. (And I didn't own an ipad so that became part of the price.) I will admit that if I needed a 4 channel mixer for keyboards, I wouldn't hesitate to consider a Behringer. But for a primary mixer? I'm not there yet. I hope their quality improves without raising their price much. But that's my thought on any product that has gotten a bad reputation due to their own behavior. It's my intention to bypass the Studiolive mixer at my senior's variety show this year and only use the DL1608.
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^ We'll see where the DL1608 is feature-wise when the X18 ships. You may very well be right, although there are a LOT of people that like Mackie over Behringer. I suspect V2.1 within a month and that leaves time for V3 shipping when the X18 does :) .
+1 I think Ron hits the nail on the head. All this discussion is interesting but fairly pointless as only one of the products exists at the moment.
If the X16 was available when I purchased my DL I certainly would have considered them both but it wasn't and my decision was an easy one.
Cheers
Art
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^ We'll see where the DL1608 is feature-wise when the X18 ships. You may very well be right, although there are a LOT of people that like Mackie over Behringer. I suspect V2.1 within a month and that leaves time for V3 shipping when the X18 does :) .
+1 I think Ron hits the nail on the head. All this discussion is interesting but fairly pointless as only one of the products exists at the moment.
If the X16 was available when I purchased my DL I certainly would have considered them both but it wasn't and my decision was an easy one.
Cheers
Art
That may be true for impulse buyers but those of us doing a little planning and following the MI developments and the mfg. treatment of their customers certainly makes this quite relevant and certainly not pointless. You do need to weed out the fan-boy garbage from the real thing and that can be a challenge.
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^ We'll see where the DL1608 is feature-wise when the X18 ships. You may very well be right, although there are a LOT of people that like Mackie over Behringer. I suspect V2.1 within a month and that leaves time for V3 shipping when the X18 does :) .
+1 I think Ron hits the nail on the head. All this discussion is interesting but fairly pointless as only one of the products exists at the moment.
If the X16 was available when I purchased my DL I certainly would have considered them both but it wasn't and my decision was an easy one.
Cheers
Art
That may be true for impulse buyers but those of us doing a little planning and following the MI developments and the mfg. treatment of their customers certainly makes this quite relevant and certainly not pointless. You do need to weed out the fan-boy garbage from the real thing and that can be a challenge.
Its proved a little difficult to impusle buy the X16 - there's certainly been lots of time for planning. I'd imagine by the time X18 is released there will be some better products in the pipeline. When do you buy?
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That was the point you don't impulse buy you plan for when you need something new and make sure all you requirements are met and then you don't look back. That would be the ideal but Murphy sometimes gets in the way. Broken equipment, good deal etc.
I wish I had a concrete answer but I don't.