Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Keggles on October 09, 2013, 08:55:42 PM
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just an observation....
The new Quick Access panel has a lot of free space, room for future new functions...hopefully fader groups !
Another thing I would like to see is with the new view groups ... to be able to view the output masters as a view group
If we could do that it would make control of feedback so much easier
Keggles
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It does seem a bit sensitive to feedback near the limit. Sometimes there are band members who insist on being right on the edge. (Extremely stupid.) I don't like being anywhere near that level. I'm running DriveRack PX and PAs on the monitors and FOH. That gives you about an extra 6+ db, so stupid bandmates make things much worse when it's so unnecessary. I don't know of anyone walking out on a band that was just 6 db's quieter. I've personally walked out on National acts and semi-pro acts that were ridiculously loud. (Kool and the Gang, Brainchild.)
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Another thing I would like to see is with the new view groups ... to be able to view the output masters as a view group
If we could do that it would make control of feedback so much easier
+1 - this would really help in the heat of battle.
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I like the inputs and outputs overview in StageMix (Yamaha LS9 app) that shows fader positions and levels, whilst also allowing you access to the outputs master page.
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I suspect that one thing we'll have to accept is that any good analog mixer, MixWiz for example, will run rings around the DL1608 in a rush. I don't consider it a step down for me, but just about any change on the MixWiz was a single move of my arm and nearly everything on the ipad involves at least a swipe to get to the right channel or page before moving the control that needs to be moved. It's a bit clumsy at times. This is one place where the StudioLive mixers are a cross between the two and an improvement over the DL1608. (Even without the ipad.) I really prefer having the musicians make most of the changes in volume. (Set and forget.) If the monitors are set well, that becomes easy.
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+1 to musos being in charge of their own personal dynamics. If guitar and keyboard players pads/rhythm patches are at the same level as each other and solos have a suitable boost the sound guy at the venue has a much better chance of achieving a consistent balance with an unfamiliar band.
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I don't know of anyone walking out on a band that was just 6 db's quieter. I've personally walked out on National acts and semi-pro acts that were ridiculously loud. (Kool and the Gang, Brainchild.)
An addition of 6 dB is about twice as loud. When you say "walked out", do you mean as a patron or do you mean you decided not to do the gig?
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I was in the audience. Kool and the Gang was the third act at the newly finished and opened Pepsi Center. We were 8 rows from the back. First act was BS&T and the sound was close to perfect. (And way better than I expected in that place.) Little Richard was second and the volume increase about 6 db. (Guessing here being that it was quite a while ago.) Too loud, but not loud enough to chase us off. Then Kool and the Gang. Sound was crystal clear and unbearable. We left shortly into the second song. Now with Brainchild, they were playing at the Garage. Bowling ally shaped room with the stage at the end. Bunch of Kustom speakers at the time. B3 with a mic'd Leslie buried under a bunch of cargo blankets. It was absolutely painful. (Like ice picks in the ears.) I stayed about 5 minutes. (Again totally crystal clear.) The ironic thing about Brainchild was that I attended their last performance at the Castle in Morgantown. They had about 40 - 60 watt amps, each driving a separate speaker in a tri-amp system. The Castle was notoriously difficult to cover. They were perfect there. Even coverage, great concert volume. (Read that not loud but you could hear everything. Maybe the sound engineer got good.)
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So would a quick view as well as a quick access panel help to see what all the ins and outs are doing at a glance?
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From the Mackie video, it helps, but it isn't as good as a good analog board. (Lived with a MixWiz for the last 5 years.) I'm not complaining here. The DL1608 does a lot, but the sub menus are where all that stuff is. There isn't enough real estate on an ipad to put all of it up on top and still leave the buttons large enough to use. Even my dock's monitor doesn't have the space of the top of a MixWiz. So for the lighter weight and smaller footprint, we had to give up something. I consider it a good tradeoff. On the other hand, this does show that the DL1608 isn't a viable board for pro shows. (When working with a new group, you need speed.) Anyone who hasn't made the move yet and is comparing it to the ever increasing list of available analog boards, should be seriously considering analog if they have the space available. For this mixer, space, size and weight are the largest advantages over a MixWiz. The MixWiz has seriously better Aux switching available. (And totally customizable.) The individual outs of every input channel makes the MixWiz a more flexible tool. (Maybe it's not time to sell my MixWiz. But I don't see myself using it over the next year. I am trying to streamline my equipment and shrink the larger stuff down to better sizes for a 60 year old.)
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An addition of 6 dB is about twice as loud.
Actually a 10dB change (or 1 Bel) is consider 2x louder or half as loud. 6dB is substantial, but not twice the perceived volume at most frequencies. The exceptions are very low frequencies and very high frequencies where smaller changes in SPL are perceived as larger.
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There isn't enough real estate on an ipad to put all of it up on top and still leave the buttons large enough to use. Even my dock's monitor doesn't have the space of the top of a MixWiz. So for the lighter weight and smaller footprint, we had to give up something.
You've basically summed up the major downside of mixing on digital consoles in a general sense - the inability to access all functions and view the status of many things simultaneously. Of course, the footprint and weight is of modern digital desks is very small compared to trying to get similar functionality on an all analog setup. But I do miss being able to see all my compressors, gates, FX, and channels all at once and being able to grab a knob to make quick changes without digging through layers and menus. I'd never expect this of Mackie, but I am surprised that the higher end desks don't have options to add more touch screens with encoders to like "virtual outboard" gear so you can put up things full time that you'd like to always have access to without digging around. Now wouldn't that be special?
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At just over 7 lbs the DL does a lot more than a ton of analogue desks. The x32 rack weighs around 15 and does even more. I'll take a great iPad controlled digital mixer over an analogue mixer, and all the outboard gear it needs, any day of the week. Especially with them being 15lbs and under.
In regards to the mixwiz it has no compressors, no graphic eqs, no limiters and gates. 1 effect? Yes and analogue mixer is faster, but how much more does it need to contain all the built in processing? The set up, and breakdown, is definitely no where near as fast. Or compact.
That also brings us to digital mixers with faders. The x32 (all fadered models), presonus, and more have faders and touch controls which make them faster. Add in an iPad and now you have more control surfaces which speed things up more.
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That would be 2 effects channels on the MixWiz. (If you wanted more than one at a time.) The MixWiz effects had a larger range then the DL1608, but then again, I only ever used the reverb and delay. More if you don't use it, isn't really more. I used the DL for a League of Women Voter's forum on Natural Gas production and the effects of released Methane on Global Warming last Monday. Mixing from the audience was fine, but I would have liked to have a stand to put the ipad on. (I do a lot of General PA work. Rallies, Candidate forums.....) I'm also afraid of accidentally brushing against the screen and changing something in ways that I wouldn't want to. Maybe those gloves that only have index finger sensitivity would help.
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At just over 7 lbs the DL does a lot more than a ton of analogue desks. The x32 rack weighs around 15 and does even more. I'll take a great iPad controlled digital mixer over an analogue mixer, and all the outboard gear it needs, any day of the week. Especially with them being 15lbs and under.
In regards to the mixwiz it has no compressors, no graphic eqs, no limiters and gates. 1 effect? Yes and analogue mixer is faster, but how much more does it need to contain all the built in processing? The set up, and breakdown, is definitely no where near as fast. Or compact.
That also brings us to digital mixers with faders. The x32 (all fadered models), presonus, and more have faders and touch controls which make them faster. Add in an iPad and now you have more control surfaces which speed things up more.
Yeah, I'm not debating the upsides of digital. There's a lot of convenience & great stuff there. I'm not complaining. I just think, say on my Avid Venue, it would be awesome to have some lightweight flat racks with 1 RU and/or 2RU touch screens surround by encoders. You could buy as many as you wanted and they'd be linked to the console w/ CAT5. You could assign any channel or bus processing to them, FX, graphics, plugins, etc. so they were up full time regardless of the layer or screen you were on with the main surface. And of course, since it's digital, you could even had those virtual outboard racks change on a scene by scene basis to whatever processing you needed for a particular band or even song by song. I'd like to have my verb and delays up full time on set. Then select compressors and such on others. I'd have my group bus comps up on another. You could have as many or as few as you wanted. Big touring acts could have a boat load. Or you could have one or two to keep things compact.
I find it surprising that companies like Midas, Digico, Avid, Soundcraft, etc. haven't thought of that since it's a #1 complaint of some of the big wallet A list engineers, some of who haven't gone digital yet just for that reason. If the option were currently available on the Avid Venues, I'd be all over it. There's a lot you can't see going on in the heat of the moment. The other day I was doing a show and noticed something wasn't right with the vocals on a particularly powerful funk band with strong vocalists. Everything looked ok on the channels & the group bus levels. Turns out the Smack! plugin inserted on the vocal group was clipping. There was no way to tell without navigating to the plugins page on the Venue and then calling up that plugin. If I could have had that plugin on virtual outboard, it would have been spotted instantly. In festival style situations where bands often don't get sound checks so you can store that scene, it would be great to be able to see everything going on like the "old days." ;)
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There isn't enough real estate on an ipad to put all of it up on top and still leave the buttons large enough to use. Even my dock's monitor doesn't have the space of the top of a MixWiz. So for the lighter weight and smaller footprint, we had to give up something. I consider it a good tradeoff.
In any analog mixer you have the first layer as the control surface and yes this is far larger than most displays. I consider the second layer the outboard gear required to match the feature set of a digital mixer, even more real-estate. The question is what do you need for a live venue for speed and control and what is used mostly for setup? In the analog world there is a lot of unnecessary clutter that can be intelligently separated with a digital mixer with layers thus reducing the display/control space required for a "live show mixer". The problem with the DL1608 is that utilization of the real-estate is poor at best. I have many times stated that it is a poor attempt to meet that goal. The DL is a form over function design. Yes sex sells and Mackie is all about sales and not about music or functionality. The UI (user interface) needs a major overhaul. Let's look at the MF layout and point out the big space wasters. The faders take up 50% of the screen to display and control loudness. The need for such a space waste for meters and a scale that doesn't even show accurate levels is beyond me. If you need more than your ears to find the right balance then don't quit your day job. Moving faders requires far less real-estate than 50% as demonstrated by other iPad apps from the competitors. Next there are the channel labels or scribble strips. They serve no live control value and in my opinion are in the wrong location for information. Your eyes have to focus on the bottom edge of the display for information required in the middle of the screen. Let's go to the top. Right below the title bar is normally a place for major functions or drop down menus even in the fruit computers. This area is half empty and of little control value at present. This area should be for second level access not some value display. Then there is the cute little pic for eq's which again serve no purpose other than access to a second level which should have been in the prior area. I forgot it provides an annoyance for the use of mute. I could go on but at this point I've already freed up a significant part of screen area for useful control and display necessary for live operation. You'll need to go elsewhere for functionality over form.
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On the iPad big faders rule, I use the A&H iLiveo software at work and it's a real PITA with the important bits (the faders) being far too small for accurate use. For me at least, the reduced feature set of Master Fader (which allows decent sized faders) is what makes it useable.
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They use an 1/1/4" as opposed to 3" on the MF somewhere in between would be a good compromise. Fader button size is also to small on the iLive leading to response problems (PITA) as you stated. UPDATE: the fader button is not the target as in MF but the whole fader area. I like it better than "slow and grow" from Mackie and the fader value is at the top. I had less of a problem getting fader movement from that approach. Two extremes to compare. Soundcraft use 2" but leaves a lot of dead space that could be removed. X32mix is 2.5" made for lefties (meter on right side) but better layout. Presonus is 2" and has a better layout for live although I don't know what the faders move since their not motorized.
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I just think, say on my Avid Venue, it would be awesome to have some lightweight flat racks with 1 RU and/or 2RU touch screens surround by encoders. You could buy as many as you wanted and they'd be linked to the console w/ CAT5.
You sort of can with the DL1608 if you are prepared to buy more iPads and have them laid out on a desk or a surface, afterall it supports 10 devices ;D
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They use an 1/1/4" as opposed to 3" on the MF somewhere in between would be a good compromise. Fader button size is also to small on the iLive leading to response problems (PITA) as you stated. UPDATE: the fader button is not the target as in MF but the whole fader area. I like it better than "slow and grow" from Mackie and the fader value is at the top. I had less of a problem getting fader movement from that approach. Two extremes to compare. Soundcraft use 2" but leaves a lot of dead space that could be removed. X32mix is 2.5" made for lefties (meter on right side) but better layout. Presonus is 2" and has a better layout for live although I don't know what the faders move since their not motorized.
You know I'd never realised that (in my defence I usually use the Mac version if I'm mixing in software, while the boss has the iPad), It would be an improvement to MF if it worked the same way. :o
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Don't suppose that there's a mac version for the DL1608. It would be nice to be able to use keyboard shortcuts.
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Since development for iOS is done under OsX there is of course a version on the Mac. The problem of course is the lock-down on the development platform and the possibility that Mackie is outsourcing the development and don't own the rights to that version. There are also development platforms on Windows and Linux but Apple is down-right hostile to them and eventually you need to recompile under Mac OsX to publish on the iStore. Welcome to the poison fruit development environment.
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There is no OsX version available for public consumption sadly though, as WD says, there must be development versions running under OsX. I did wonder if ther was an iOS emulator which would run Master Fader on my MacBook.
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Under development http://iemu.org/index.php/Main_Page . Wouldn't be surprised if Apple used a variant of Qemu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU Jobs and Co. are the biggest IP thieves on the planet.
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Hmm, wonder how the heaven / hell re-branding is going LOL ::)
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Hmm, wonder how the heaven / hell re-branding is going LOL ::)
God only knows ;D
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When you see angels eating apples or skewered apples on the horns you'll know. You never had to deal with him, I did.