Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: mr.happy on October 15, 2013, 11:55:49 PM
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Hey all, very new to the makie1608 but impressed.Tried recording last night,just pushed the botton and that was it. I thought.I found the file and listened to it ,could hardly hear it .Is there a level slider or something? Thank you for any helpo you can give me.
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Somewhere in the forum, they said that the recording wasn't controlled by the master LR at all. If you're not using most of the gain in the trim and channel outs, it might result in a very low volume output. I've experienced the same thing, but have enough gain available to bring it up to a viable level to listen to.
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You can do a few things to make this better.
1) keep as is and normalize the file.
2) get you input and mix levels to a higher level.
3) my favorite way. Use an aux or two as your mains and create a separate recording mix with the mains. This way you can get levels high without affecting output. And you can create a better sounding recording mix.
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Sounds to me like a gain structure problem. Nothing wrong with the LR bus levels unless you have the afore mentioned problem. The lame Mackie record function takes the signal off the main LR bus after the mains compressor and GEQ and records it (0 on the strip gets you -16dB FS or about 4-6 dBu on this mixer in the file). The vague diagram for recording on pg 136 of the manual. It would have been nice to at least display the LR bus loudness in the iPad meter when recording. The only level control that you have is from the channel strips compressor and GEQ. The main LR fader has nothing to do with recording. The biggest problem is the round about way of playback. Apple handed Mackie the code on a silver platter since iOS 2 but it must have been a rush job just to say that you can record. If you need to play immediately after recording use one of the many free apps that allow this. What I don't understand is that a company that relies on the iPad as a necessary part of the equipment to function ignores the most basic features provided by the iPad and that is core audio. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel when a company that knows it's own product better than Mackie ever will provides you with the code to deal with audio. It also opens up access to many other uses for the DL in the audio world. Even if you're not a programmer here is the link to Apples overview of their audio concept most of it available since iOS2. https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/AudioUnitHostingGuide_iOS/AudioUnitHostingFundamentals/AudioUnitHostingFundamentals.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009492-CH3-SW11
or the more general:
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/AudioUnitHostingGuide_iOS/Introduction/Introduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009492
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This may be a really noob question, but aren't the recording levels tapped off the same preamps as the main output? There really shouldn't be such a big difference between the two. Usually on an analog mixer the line outs (and RCA stereo outs) should receive the same signal levels as the main outputs? Yes, there is usually, but not always a physical level control on the RCA (record) and line outs.
It's not a big deal for me particularly, since if I need to do a quick recording session I can use the main outs to an external USB recording device to my laptop, running my DAW etc. etc. etc. ???
If I am totally out in left field with my assumptions, I stand (or sit) corrected and would really appreciate being educated on this particular issue with the DL. :)
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Forget Mackie's record app and use VoiceRecord Pro free at the app store then you can also play back immediately without having to standing on your head with iTunes.
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KM, there is a ton of useful information here in these forums. You can find information on almost every aspect of the dl including recording questions.
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Thank you all for your replies. :)
Yes I will give VoiceRecord Pro an in depth look and also do some more digging on the site for more excellent tips and information. I've been playing around with the Focusrite Tape app too. Any opinions on this one?
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Bill,
Doesn't matter whether you use MF record or VoiceRecord Pro (even tried ver. 7). My gain structure is optimal. Output is still too low. Just purchased a 16 channel splitter-snake and going to run 16 into my DL and 16 into my Focusrite 18i20 and be done with it.
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Gio you should have bought a different board and been done with it. An X would have been cheaper, easier and a major upgrade to what you have set up. What the heck is wrong with normalizing a file or using the aux for mains route? Some people are making this way to difficult.
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Gio,
Simple test to verify recording levels. You do need a good RMS meter and a stable signal source. I used a 1k sine wave simulating your Focusrite line level output to the Mackie mic/line in using the old analog standard of +4 dBu that's 1.23V rms for the input signal. Turn all faders to 0 and mute all non test channels. Also disable all EQ etc. on input and output. We just want the input signal unmodified. Bring the test signal on the channel to 0 on meter and you should have a output signal of -1.5 dB or so less than input. You could adjust channel fader to give you a 1.23 rms value on the L&R output to keep it simple like I did. You can now record using VoiceRecord pro and the VU meter should be around -2.3 VU. Record about a minute, stop and turn mute off on iPad channel and mute test channel for playback. Play back recording using VoiceRecord pro and your rms meter will give you the same value that you recorded in my case 1.23V rms. MF meter should be the same as when you recorded. Based on this test I would say something is not correct in you gain structure causing the low output. Again you should be using the Focusrite preamps for all of your amplification and the Mackie around unity gain. Faders will function with the normal use, minor adjustments to levels. You can still use L&R for speakers since the iPad insert is pre-fader. Time for a setup session.
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Jerry,
That is true. The X32 still isn't out of the picture, but I'd probably go with the 3U rackmount. Just sold my Behringer X3200 32-channel analog board for $600. Over 1/2 way there ;D. I'm probably going to hold out for a while and see what new technology emerges. I know a few people using aux's as the main outs. What major advantage do you have using the aux's versus mains? In general, I've had no issues running the conventional method have had good success with recording off the DL for duo and trio formats. I have had to normalize as well. I bring the .wav into my DAW (Sonar X3 Producer) and just boost the gain on the channel strip.
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Gio,
Simple test to verify recording levels. You do need a good RMS meter and a stable signal source. I used a 1k sine wave simulating your Focusrite line level output to the Mackie mic/line in using the old analog standard of +4 dBu that's 1.23V rms for the input signal. Turn all faders to 0 and mute all non test channels. Also disable all EQ etc. on input and output. We just want the input signal unmodified. Bring the test signal on the channel to 0 on meter and you should have a output signal of -1.5 dB or so less than input. You could adjust channel fader to give you a 1.23 rms value on the L&R output to keep it simple like I did. You can now record using VoiceRecord pro and the VU meter should be around -2.3 VU. Record about a minute, stop and turn mute off on iPad channel and mute test channel for playback. Play back recording using VoiceRecord pro and your rms meter will give you the same value that you recorded in my case 1.23V rms. MF meter should be the same as when you recorded. Based on this test I would say something is not correct in you gain structure causing the low output. Again you should be using the Focusrite preamps for all of your amplification and the Mackie around unity gain. Faders will function with the normal use, minor adjustments to levels. You can still use L&R for speakers since the iPad insert is pre-fader. Time for a setup session.
I always set my source desk to unity gain and leave the destination desk turned down. Working with 2 desks with pre's adjusted on both introduces a lot of artifacts to the equation. We should get together soon. Been so busy with my IT business leaving no time to play :(. Heading to Vegas next week for a convention. Maybe in the next few weeks, I can find some time to get together.
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Got rid of the in-laws clearing my schedule just let me know when. The unity gain on the Focusrite is definitely a bad idea it combines all the Focusrite preamp noise at unity gain with the low level signal (Mic) and then you feed it to the Mackie for amplification. Definitely noisy. Unless your description is not what you do. It reads both desk turned down?
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Gio I thought you knew the advantages of the aux as mains options. You use the auxes to run your mains, then you can use the mains to create a separate recording mix. Yes it's only a stereo mix. The x32 can do this without having to do,the aux as mains. You can assign multiple different options to the USB recording. The dl is limited to,recording the mains.
Also with the X you can use it as a daw interface. I like to record with both. I can make a quick 2 channel recording with the front USB and also multi track using the back. And yes I am refering to the rack.
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Yah, just normalize the file afterwards - make sure you record at 24 bits so you don't end up with quantization noise when you "shave off" the upper bits thereby.
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Took a quick look at the specs on the 18i20 and here is a definite source of low level. The max output of the 18i20 is +16 dBu (0 dBFS) while the DL max input is +21 dBu (0 dBFS) a 5 dB difference which unfortunately must be compensated for in input gain of the DL. So instead of unity gain you need to increase to 5 dB gain on the DL. Fortunately it won't affect the S/N in any meaningful way. This is a gain structure issue easily dealt with via trim pots on the DL. Try this with the above recording test and you should get satisfactory recording levels. Make sure that the line level selection on the 18i20 is set to max (grey buttons on 1-8 for recording).
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Thank you one and all for all of the excellent recording tips and ideas :thu:
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Gio I thought you knew the advantages of the aux as mains options. You use the auxes to run your mains, then you can use the mains to create a separate recording mix. Yes it's only a stereo mix. The x32 can do this without having to do,the aux as mains. You can assign multiple different options to the USB recording. The dl is limited to,recording the mains.
Also with the X you can use it as a daw interface. I like to record with both. I can make a quick 2 channel recording with the front USB and also multi track using the back. And yes I am refering to the rack.
Jerry, I can see the advantage of running the mains thru the aux and having a little more control over the recording in the mains, however it's still a stereo mix which is the limitation. I would rather do multi-track and adjust levels, etc post-production. I will probably wait towards the end of the year and look at the x32 again. I have another sound engineer buddy that bought the x32 but had an issue with a dropped connection in which he had to run to the board to make an adjustment. Good thing that he has the ability to adjust faders. BTW, I'm still using Louder Logic for my break music and loving it. That was your GOOD recommendation.
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Took a quick look at the specs on the 18i20 and here is a definite source of low level. The max output of the 18i20 is +16 dBu (0 dBFS) while the DL max input is +21 dBu (0 dBFS) a 5 dB difference which unfortunately must be compensated for in input gain of the DL. So instead of unity gain you need to increase to 5 dB gain on the DL. Fortunately it won't affect the S/N in any meaningful way. This is a gain structure issue easily dealt with via trim pots on the DL. Try this with the above recording test and you should get satisfactory recording levels. Make sure that the line level selection on the 18i20 is set to max (grey buttons on 1-8 for recording).
Bill, I have no issues with low level on my 18i20's. I have a lot more headroom on my 18i20's and never have to never have to compensate with the input gain on my DL. Also, the gray buttons are only on ch 1 and 2. 3-8 is controlled thru Scarlett MixControl software.
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I don't think we are on the same page. I am not talking about low levels on the 18i20 but the gain structure mismatch between it and the DL. The DL needs to add 5 dB of input gain so that the signals from the 18i20 will have similar dynamic range going thru the DL. Low levels fall were they may and depend on the individual gear. Peak is what were concerned with here before clip. I was talking about MixControl and the monitor section of 10 buttons. The output should pass full signal out of the 18i20 outputs and not be controlled by MixControl soft control. I'm well aware of the reason for getting the 18i20's in the first place and that was to record individual tracks via a USB recorder (PC or Mac) and of course is still your option without DL assistance. Draw a diagram with the Y axis from +30 dBu to - 90 dBu and map each gear in signal path order. Take max input and output values and noise floor and you will see what I mean (picture is worth a thousand words). The lowest max and the highest noise floor will determine your SYSTEM dynamic range and the only one that counts. Adjusting for peak levels between gear will get you the max dynamic range. Noise floor is secondary to this and falls were it may. The weakest link in the chain defines your System dynamic range. 5 dB is almost 100% increase (6 dB). Normalization is frowned upon in mastering circles especially a large amount. The noise floor in gear used in live sound is usually well below ambient levels and therefore irrelevant. All the more reason to squeeze the max out of gear at near max loudness allowed as ambient increases reducing your house S/N.
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Multi-track recording would be nice, but there are better tools and more expensive ones from all sorts of places. I don't plan to use anything else than my Alesis Multimix16 firewire for recording. Think I've had it since shortly after they started making them. Never had a problem and it provides a backup mixer that I can also use if I needed more channels too. (Don't think you can buy them new anymore.) If there's a sad part for all of this, it's the short time that a product is available and how soon it's obsolete. (And how willing we are to just toss the old stuff away.) And how unwilling we are to just use stuff that someone else has declared obsolete. The people I know using computers that are 10 years old is pretty amazing. My Son moves his gaming computer onto TV support when he builds a newer faster machine. (He's in IT and the gaming machine is just for fun at home.) At least he's slow to toss old machines away. Think he's still using one of his earliest gaming machines as a server at his home. (He's got fiber to the trunk and a server rack, fast Wifi and the whole house is wired Cat 5. Did that before moving in. He's a pretty serious geek.)
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This is only an observation, I am not bashing the DL in the least.
8)
Even though I don’t have my DL yet, I get the impression that the built in 2 track to ipad recording feature was included because it came with the current technology already available. It appears they didn’t put much forethought into any one really wanting to do any half serious audio recording with the board. If they had, at least there would have been a recording level feature in Master Fader and possibly even multi track capabilities included. I guess they weighed price versus features? I don’t think the current hardware can support multi track though. And I’m probably way out in left field with that statement. The recording level issue may just be addressed in the next update of Master Fader. Lets' hope Mackie listens?
When I do get my DL I’m going to try the recording feature just the same so that I can have a more realistic idea how audio levels really sound and how easy or difficult it is to bring the levels up without compromising the overall audio quality of the mix down. Theoretically since everything is done in the digital realm, the sound quality should not be too bad. Fingers crossed. In the real world if I want to do better recordings, then I can record from the main L&R or AUX L&R so that the overall levels can be brought up considerably into whatever DAW I want to use.
This in no way changed my decision to buy a DL1608, I'm still looking forward to it and am more than willing to work around any little issues that may occur. Software updates = more features!
I didn't buy it for the recording feature at all. I bought it to use as a good quality mixer with wireless capabilities. 8)
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KM save yourself time and frustration and simply use VoiceRecord or some other 3rd party recording and playback software it's free. MF recording feature IMHO is broken for now and has no playback. When Mackie finally decides to use the other 75% of the DL capabilities a lot more features can be included. There is no recording level problem that I can find but there are certainly a lot of users that don't understand gain structure. The unfortunate limitation that L&R are the only channels that can be used on the wired iPad hookup for recording makes it problematic hence the aux workarounds for those that want a separate mix for recording and FOH. The DL is useless as a DAW input device and was never intended to be one. The Focusrite 18i20 is meant for DAW's. Sound quality has little to do with being digital. Lots more information on this forum, just keep reading and you'll be way ahead of most DL users.
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WK154;
You're 100 percent right on!!! Plus my music and sound gigs I do semi professional remastering of LPs and audio cassettes part time at home and have learned by trial and error some of the recording pitfalls one can get into very easily. The DL isn't a DAW and never will be. For home recording/remastering I use an Alesis Multimix 8 USB 2.0 mixer. It can record separately on all 8 channels in my DAW if needed. My DAW is Adobe Auditon CC.
I have the Focusrite Tape app on my ipad. It's kinda hokey looking (a reel to reel recorder and the reels turn when recording.) There are even level meters, sort of! I've tried it using the ipad's internal mic and it's pretty clean sounding. TAPE can be used in stereo which is good. It doesn't have a recording level adjustment, but the levels can be controlled through the MF front end. If that doesn't work I'm seriously going to try your suggestion.
Like I mentioned in my last post, audio recording is not a big priority for me with the DL, but just for an occasional use for a quick 1 shot stereo mixdown. If I have to do a serious onsite live recording session I'm going to use my Alesis. I am more interested in using the DL for live sound mixing. And yes, reading all that you can on the DL in particular can be very helpful indeed!
Thank you for your reply and excellent information. It is very helpful indeed! :thu:
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I don't think we are on the same page. I am not talking about low levels on the 18i20 but the gain structure mismatch between it and the DL. The DL needs to add 5 dB of input gain so that the signals from the 18i20 will have similar dynamic range going thru the DL. Low levels fall were they may and depend on the individual gear. Peak is what were concerned with here before clip. I was talking about MixControl and the monitor section of 10 buttons. The output should pass full signal out of the 18i20 outputs and not be controlled by MixControl soft control. I'm well aware of the reason for getting the 18i20's in the first place and that was to record individual tracks via a USB recorder (PC or Mac) and of course is still your option without DL assistance. Draw a diagram with the Y axis from +30 dBu to - 90 dBu and map each gear in signal path order. Take max input and output values and noise floor and you will see what I mean (picture is worth a thousand words). The lowest max and the highest noise floor will determine your SYSTEM dynamic range and the only one that counts. Adjusting for peak levels between gear will get you the max dynamic range. Noise floor is secondary to this and falls were it may. The weakest link in the chain defines your System dynamic range. 5 dB is almost 100% increase (6 dB). Normalization is frowned upon in mastering circles especially a large amount. The noise floor in gear used in live sound is usually well below ambient levels and therefore irrelevant. All the more reason to squeeze the max out of gear at near max loudness allowed as ambient increases reducing your house S/N.
Bill, per my other post on another thread, That's why I'm using the 16-channel splitter snake. Don't have to worry about any of this. Keeping the 18i20's and DL totally separate.
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So just for an educational experiment, I tried out the DL built in recording feature at home. I set the recording bit rate to 16 bits first. I played a track from my other iPad connected to channels 15/16 (combined into stereo on the DL) I set stereo level on 15/16 and the master levels to zero. I hit record etc. etc. blah, blah, blah. Oh yes the gains were set at the middle range (5?)
Once the track was finished I dumped the wav file to my laptop via iToons and loaded the file into my DAW. The level was lower than the playback in my studio headphones while recording. I knew that! I loaded Ozone 5 (FX software) loaded the highest volume boosting preset. The volume was much louder, but not enough. So I boosted the volume level sliders within that particular preset and pushed the VU meters to just below clipping. This actually made the recorded track almost as loud as the original track levels. Not too bad.
The original track was an MP3 and the final was recorded as a wav file (we all know that the DL creates wav files when recording. No condescension intended :)) It sounded pretty good considering the source and the recording medium. I know that it’s not meant to do serious recording, but in a pinch and if you have a lot of spare time on your hands you can make a half decent 2 track stereo recording with your DL. Only if you want to, if you must, I guess. :facepalm: You won’t go platinum with it though. ;D Over all recording a basic stereo mix down on the DL is not too shabby!
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The low levels on Master Fader recordings are well documented but if you record at 24bit resolution the results can be normalised very successfully. There will usually be no loss of quality after dithering down to 16bit. As you say it's not a sophisticated recording facility but the quality is very good and the success of the final recordings is more dependent on how good a mix you can achieve (same as with any direct to stereo recording).
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The low levels on Master Fader recordings are well documented but if you record at 24bit resolution the results can be normalized very successfully. There will usually be no loss of quality after dithering down to 16bit. As you say it's not a sophisticated recording facility but the quality is very good and the success of the final recordings is more dependent on how good a mix you can achieve (same as with any direct to stereo recording).
Sam the only thing that's been documented is the fact that what you put in you get out. Let's not chastise Mackie for one of the few things they did get right, recording levels. If you have low levels check your gain structure it's probably in need of adjustment. 24 bit recording only does you good if you use all 24 bits, you can't recover what is lost by normalizing. KM the wave file is also a good thing even if it takes more space at least you don't loose data or modify the tonality of what you record. You can always mutilate it in post.
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Wk I was thinking about making a similar post. If you can get all your levels set to a good gain, mix your channels as close to zero db as possible, and keep you mains also turned up you will get a decent recording. Problem is, especially in a live situation, you will have to lower your amps. They would be getting a good level as well. And you do risk the issue of driving some channels to hard. Some would think you might be driving you output gains to high but the dl doesn't have that high of an output to begin with.
In simpler terms, get you board running as high as it can, then use the amps to control the level.
Keep in mind like wk said. What you put in you get out. If you lower the master because it's too loud you are really cutting into the recording mix volume. A 10db reduction, which is not much on a fader, will cut the recording volume in half. If you need to turn down, and you are recording, use the amps/powered speaker level.
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Wk I was thinking about making a similar post. If you can get all your levels set to a good gain, mix your channels as close to zero db as possible, and keep you mains also turned up you will get a decent recording. Problem is, especially in a live situation, you will have to lower your amps. They would be getting a good level as well. And you do risk the issue of driving some channels to hard. Some would think you might be driving you output gains to high but the dl doesn't have that high of an output to begin with.
In simpler terms, get you board running as high as it can, then use the amps to control the level.
Keep in mind like wk said. What you put in you get out. If you lower the master because it's too loud you are really cutting into the recording mix volume. A 10db reduction, which is not much on a fader, will cut the recording volume in half. If you need to turn down, and you are recording, use the amps/powered speaker level.
I agree totally with what your saying JL, but you will get some old school sound guys that have been taught to max out their power amps. I've fought this with them for years!! My solution is very similar to yours and Bill's:
1. Peak the source (i.e. inputs). As close to unity gain (0) as you can
2. Try to also set the channel faders as close to unity gain as you can (i.e. within -5db)
3. Set the master fader as close to unity gain as possible (also within -5db)
4. Adjust the power amps gains to appropriate house level.
The only issues I deal with is when you have instrument amplification on stage (i.e. guitar amp). I tend to lower the channel fader to keep the for guitar for example from being too overwhelming. It's almost impossible to get a guitarist or bassist to turn down their amps on stage ;). That's one of the main reasons I've gone for the separate mix for recording and not recording the main mix.
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Gio seperate mix or multitrack recording is always better. You can have the loud guitar amp problem with any live sound gig recording the mains. No matter what gear you use. That's not the point here. The point is how to bring the level of recoding volume up with the dl1608.
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JL, I understand the point of the thread.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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I've been away for a few days. WK, I wasn't chastising Mackie, quite the opposite. With 24bit headroom you can still achieve decent recordings even if source levels are low (and what could Mackie do except provide a digital gain control for the overall recording level) their method keeps things simple and the MF recording function is what it is, for many things works just fine.