Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: c172essna on February 18, 2016, 07:02:50 PM
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I should say in advance that I'm a drummer trying to educate myself and help my band as we move into digital sound. I'm obviously not not an experienced sound technician, but I am studying and trying hard to learn.
My band just purchased the DL32R and I've been hands-on with MasterFader 3.2 working through the manual. I'm happy with the initial band set-up and continue to tweak that.
One area I'm struggling with, however, is how to set-up/patch monitors in Master Fader. At this juncture, we are daisy chaining four unpowered wedge monitors and will only need to control individual's volume level in that overall mix. Secondly I'm not yet seeing how to adjust individual band members volume level in the overall monitor mix (using Master Fader).
Undoubtedly this is all well addressed in the Mackie Manual, but I'm not gleaning what I need to make it happen. I've looked for related videos and searched this forum, so far without success.
If anyone can point me toward any resources or information about monitor set-up and live band mix monitor adjusting using Master Fader I'd be very appreciative.
Thank you! This forum has been extremely helpful to me so far and I'm very happy to be a part of it.
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Hi,
on the right side of Master Fader 4 (I am not referring to any other version)
tap on the LR button, this will take you to a list of all the available mix outputs. We used to call these aux sends.
Click on the mix that you want to control, and all the faders seen will be the levels for that mix.
On traditional analog mixers, the monitors were controlled by a round knob, now they are slide faders.
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Dapper Dan I think I understand. For now I'll just come out of A1 and select the "All Band" mix which is one of my LR configurations.
I'm realizing that as various players can afford to transition to powered monitors (or in-ear as far as that is concerned), with 13 aux outputs to spare we can accommodate those individual additions easily on a one-by-one basis.
The more i get into this mixer the more excited I get.
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Generally, when using wedges, the aux should be set as pre-fader. That way, changes in the L+R output channels shouldn't cause feedback onstage. Few other things, all Aux outputs have a 31 band EQ and a PEQ (6 band?) and compression. All useful things. I would recommend downloading the Master Fader 4.x version. There are some nice additions with it. You can setup a single channel, copy it and propogate it across various channels. I always setup a high pass filter (HPF) of 100 Htz. This way, I can setup the first vocal channel that way and then copy it and apply it to all the other vocal channels. Real time saver. I'm running the DL1608, but it applies to all the DL mixers. You can have both the Master Fader 3.x and Master Fader 4.x on your ipad at the same time. That way if you find the extra toys to be too much, you can easily go back to Master Fader 3.x I haven't used MF 3.x since I loaded MF 4.x and I'm fine with that. Very slick in both ways. It's a very sophisticated tool, but it's a good one too.
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I completely agree with Wynnd, all good advice,
A number of years ago, I provided sound for an outdoor festival and the band that was playing for that job had been around for many years and was really good.
I called the guy in charge of the band ahead of time to ask how many monitor mixes they would like,..... and he responded with the following...,
just one, we usually use four monitors but they all get the same mix and it has just vocals in it.
To which I replied,, WOW! now that makes sense :)
Getting back on topic... in most cases you will want to stay away from gates, unless you know exactly what you are doing with them.
If you use compressors use very litte compression, too much compression can cause feedback.
A decent compression setting for a vocal monitor mix is something like this:
(http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/comp.PNG)
a simple way to remember compressor settings...
Threshold = threshold of pain, how loud do you want this person's voice or guitar to hurt before the compressor begins to lower the volume for everyone?
Raising the threshold to it's max (to the full right position) means there will be no compression, regardless of the ratio, attack and release settings. In other words ... we don't care if this lady takes our heads off occasionally and sometimes blows our speakers. :eek:
Moving the threshold slider to the left will lower the threshold. If the gain of the vocal is loud enough to reach or "hit" the threshold, then the compressor will reduce the volume,... provided a ratio setting is at least higher than 1 to 1 (1:1). A commonly used ratio is 4:1. Meaning, once the vocal has hit the compressor hard enough, the compressor will lower the vocal proportionally. in other words, a lower ratio will produce a smoother more consistent sound, a higher ratio will definitely sound more aggressive, and have a tendancy to cause "pumping" of the sound. Radio stations normally use a tremendous amount of compression because the "ON AIR" person pays no attention to volume from one song to another.
Attack = how fast do you want to compressor to respond to the "out of control" dynamically insane vocal?
Release = once the vocalist has hit the compresor hard enough to compresss, how much time do you want the compressor to spend (ducking) before it releases the vocal back to insasne levels (if the vocalist is still screaming).
Gain = sometimes referred to as "makeup gain".
If our compressor settings are causing the vocalist (or guitar) to almost always be "above the threshold" (compressing), then the overall volume of the vocalist will be lowered so much that we need to make up gain that we lost in our mix from the heavy compression settings / aggressive singing.
All of this is a lot to retain without being confused, but the best thing you can do is make a multi-track recording of your band, then back at home, set up a monitor speaker like you use on the gig and experiment with these settings. Use the multi-track recording to play back into the same channels as were used live,,, then use and trust your ears, and mess with these setting to fully understand what they do.
Most important, never hesitate to come here to ask questions. There are all kinds of users here and their experience/talent is diverse,,, so ask away :)
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Agreed on gates. Don't use them until you actually understand what they do and when to use them. That's one disappointment for me. The DL mixers default to having the Gates turned on. I think it should default to having them turned off. I rarely use more than a couple of gates on any gig. (And frequently none.) It's just a pain to be turning them all off. (Another thing easier on MF 4x)
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Until you have gained a lot of experience do not use gates or compressors at all. Very few sound guys really know how to use them properly. Go very easy on EQ and only cut. Generally a HPF and a couple of cuts is enough, sweep a cut on the parametric EQ to find problem frequencies. Don't feel that because you have a tool you have to use it, less is more!
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Great info and advice everyone. Thank you for helping me move forward.
Should I assume that vocal and instrument DL presets should be avoided as far as compression and gates are concerned? I was going to try factory presets on each channel (VOX 1 for instance on vocals) but will avoid avoid that if it's likely to be cause problems.
Pytchley shared "Go very easy on EQ and only cut. Generally a HPF and a couple of cuts is enough, sweep a cut on the parametric EQ to find problem frequencies".
Can you tell me a little more about how to "sweep a cut"?
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Can you tell me a little more about how to "sweep a cut"?
Play some well recorded music which has the style and sound you are looking for. In the PEQ grab one of the numbered blobs (start with number 2), pull it down to the bottom, pinch it to make it narrow (or use the Q slider) then drag it from side to side listening to the effect it has on the sound. If you are indoors you will probably find a "boomy" area in the bass to low mid area, fine tune from side to side then reduce the cut until it sounds good, you may find widening the Q helps, use your ears. Basically you are looking for frequencies that excite the acoustic of the room. Repeat the process with number 3 a little higher up. Switch in the RTA if you're using MF4 and turn up a vocal mic until it starts to feedback, try and nail that frequency... remember less is more. A lot depends on the style of music and the instruments you are using. I mostly work with acoustic bands with condenser mics on acoustic guitars, violins etc and I set the HPF to around 40 hz then set band 1 to a shelf with a small cut up to around maybe 150hz but it all depends on your environment. Outdoors you shouldn't need very much of anything. Always worth setting the HPF to the lower limit of your speakers though.
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As Wynnd stated above, if your PA has sub's or bass speakers of any sort, go to the EQ of every channel except bass guitar and kick drum, and activate the high-pass filter. The scroll bar should be set to 100-150 Hz. This helps clean up the stage sound and prevent rumble through the PA. It's a very helpful tool and I always start here when EQing.
The compressor settings noted above are probably a very good starting point. I would use them on vocals, keys & bass guitar. I start with a 2.5/1 ratio but rarely go above 4/1 on vocals. Note the red meter (gain reduction) on the channel fader. Too much gain reduction can cause monitor and main feedback which I will explain here:
Compressor is set and reduces the mic volume when loud things are coming through it.
Compressor releases when the loud things get quiet, then the monitor or mains get the full signal, and the feedback occurs.
As for the factory presets i do not use them on vocals, but I have used them on drums and some instruments where I believe they are a pretty good start point.
What do you mean by your "All Band" mix on your LR configuration? For monitor mixing, you should simply go to the Aux 1 page, keep all of the individual faders down, raise the Aux 1 output to the unity mark. Now, very carefully and slowly bring up each channel while talking into the mic's, until the desired monitor level is reached. Don't try to turn them all up at once.
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pytchley advised that you experiment with the parametric EQ, and that is a good thing to do to learn more about what the EQ can do for you, however,
instead of lowering a band and sweeping to listen as he suggested, I recommend that you boost (raise) the band and then sweep from low to high (left to right).
Experienced sound people can hear a problem frequency and instantly know it's frequency, then they dial in the frequency, set the bandwidth, then they cut as much as they see fit.
For people without this knowledge, it is easier (when experimenting) to hear how the different frequencies sound when they are actually boosting as opposed to cutting.
go to the EQ of every channel except bass guitar and kick drum,
I would like to add to Steve's advice, not just kick drum and bass, but also keyboards and floor tom, you don't want to use this filter on anything that has good low frequency content, use the HPF (high pass filter) on everythoing else, he is correct, it really cleans up the sound and protects speakers.
Note: a high pass filter passes highs, but cuts lows,
a low pass filter passes lows but cuts highs
activate the high-pass filter. The scroll bar should be set to 100-150 Hz. This helps clean up the stage sound and prevent rumble through the PA.
my .02 :)
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Steve asked...
What do you mean by your "All Band" mix on your LR configuration? For monitor mixing, you should simply go to the Aux 1 page, keep all of the individual faders down, raise the Aux 1 output to the unity mark. Now, very carefully and slowly bring up each channel while talking into the mic's, until the desired monitor level is reached. Don't try to turn them all up at once.
That title "All Band" is probably misleading. It is simply an LR mix with all vocalists, instruments and drums. The procedure you describe bringing volume up individually and systematically is what we will do. Good advice!
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There are rare instances where compression of 8/1 or even 12/1 is useful. (Not for music.) I do a lot of general PA work and some politicians and most preachers need more compression. The fire and brimstone preachers will go from a whisper to shouting, frequently in the same sentence. Got to bring the floor up on the whispers without blowing your audience or speakers when the shouting starts. Compressors can be very useful in these situations.
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Wynnd,,, YEP!!!!
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[gates] It's just a pain to be turning them all off.
You only have to do it once - first thing anybody should do when they get one of these mixers is save a snapshot of the board set to your liking.
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Just to correct a slight misapprehension regarding compression, using a compresser does not cause or increase the likelihood of feedback unless you apply makeup gain (which does 'cos it raises the level of everything when the wanted signal is low or absent. It's effectively identical to turning the preamp gain up with nobody speaking into the mic).
I use the vocal presets as a starting point but always turn the gates and compression off. Then I usually increase the HPF frequency and reduce the presence peak (PEQ band 3 usually) so actually I'd be probably be quicker starting from scratch :facepalm:
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Just to correct a slight misapprehension regarding compression, using a compresser does not cause or increase the likelihood of feedback unless you apply makeup gain (which does 'cos it raises the level of everything when the wanted signal is low or absent. It's effectively identical to turning the preamp gain up with nobody speaking into the mic).
In theory that's correct but somehow switching it off miraculously allows more volume before feedback, also keep compression out of vocal monitors unless you want to destroy you vocalist (as if anyone would want to!). If you're doing sound off the stage whilst playing don't compress or only use it as an emergency limiter i.e. high ratio, high threshold so it just catches really high peaks.
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In most cases that's what I use compression for, just to control the excesses of an over excited singer :lol:
I would differ regarding switching the compression off and achieving better GBF but I will experiment next time I have the rig set up (I'm always prepared to be proved wrong :-[).
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There are rare instances where compression of 8/1 or even 12/1 is useful. (Not for music.) I do a lot of general PA work and some politicians and most preachers need more compression. The fire and brimstone preachers will go from a whisper to shouting, frequently in the same sentence. Got to bring the floor up on the whispers without blowing your audience or speakers when the shouting starts. Compressors can be very useful in these situations.
Actually, even for bands the very high compression ratios can be useful. A friend here in my town who used to mix Primus and does pretty well known reggae acts uses the highest compression ratios on all his vocal channels and it actually sounds fine. He uses a high threshold so it's not engaging until it needs to limit. I was doing a show with him a while back using my 2-stage compression method (mild compression on the vocal channel, hard compression on the vocal group as a limiter). He said I was wasting my time and to just crank the compression ratio up on my vocal channels all the way (100:1 on the Avid Venue) & shut off the group compression. I gave it a try though I was uncomfortable with it. Worked fine, though my preference is not to crush so hard. That said, the overall behavior in dynamics between the two methods didn't sound all that different in practice and I've never heard him have a bad mix. He always get the vocals out on top.
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Great info here guys. Thanks :o