Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Kblue on February 02, 2016, 07:51:46 PM
-
Hi, I just joined the forum hoping I get some advice.
My church(200-300 people) has been using mackie VLZ pro 24 for 12 years...but it has some mic inputs don't work... started acting weird...
Having issue with Keyboard sound...
Praise team wanted to buy new key board of course...but I think it is time to change mixer... a few years ago I tried to change to Onyx 24 channel but no approval. Now, they agreed to change mixer... And I don't see Onyx 24 channel any more... and I don't want to buy 2404 VLZ4...
I always wanted to buy mixer with built-in compressor... And i found DL32R...
Anyway, I have been reading manual of master Fader without DL32R... there is limit in understanding it without playing DL32R...
My plan is simply to replace VLZ pro 24 with DL32R and once DL32R is set up, the set up will stay almost permanently...
I would like to hear comments on this...
Also, one question (stupid) is once DL32R set up by iPAD, what will happen if I turned off iPAD and DL32R and turned on only DL32R a few days later?
Will DL32R be loaded up with previous configuration without iPAD? I would like to know if pre-configured DL32R can be operated without iPAD just by turning on the power like analog mixer... Thank You
-
I have a DL1608 and it is a brilliant little mixer but, while it will retain the settings from it's last shut down on the absence of a connected iPad I wouldn't use it or the DL32R for what you want. Without it iPad connected (and then only by wifi on the DL32R) it's only marginally better than a doorstop.
Depending on budget (and input requirements) consider an Allen and Heath Qu16/24 or a Behringer X32 Producer/Compact/Full Console as they all have full control without the need for a tablet/iPad. The iPad is a brilliantly useful adjunct to the mixer but is not an absolute requirement because all those mentioned have a full complement of physical controls.
I have an X32 Compact and Rack and both are superb mid sized mixers. The latter has very limited control onboard and though it is theoretically possible to access all parameters from the physical controls I wouldn't want to try to run a show without the iPad.
I would definitely endorse the move to digital and if maximum ease of use is required the A&H Qu 16/24 is the closest to an analogue mixer paradigm. Otherwise the X32 offer the best bang/buck ratio.
-
Thanks for asking the questions here, at least you will get honest answers from people actually using the product.
No one here has any interest in selling you anything.
The unit most likely will retain the last setting it was left at, but also remember at the end of your
last session, save it on your iPad and you will always have it ready to go. I even save a second copy and just title it back up. That way if I want to play with the program off line at home I can tweak away and never worry about losing the last setup.
If you have an iPad I recommend downloading the app....it's free and you can play around with it all you want and get a feel for how it works.
Most us here have been happy with the product line, except for a few functions we all hope will improve soon.
It's easy to use and learn and offers a lot of bang for the buck. Remember though, there is NO screen on the mixer, so if you forget the iPad, of let the battery die you are in major trouble. Always plan ahead with these units and make sure your back up plan is solid. Maybe keep a spare iPad ( get a used one on ebay) and keep it at the church.
As Sam said a minute ago, you have to have the iPad !
I will respectfully disagree with the notion of the x32. While it's a great little board,(and yes I own one too) unless you want a major learning curve it's not an easy board to use. Lots of screens and settings, routings, input assigns, and overall I think it's kind of a pain in the rear. Plus it's heavy to move . While I know your looking at a more permanent install, your either going to run a lot of wire or use the x32 remote app which again is limited and difficult. Just try to find a master volume control on the app...I still haven't found it on the X-air app !
I'm sure others here will chime in since we have such a active group of people here.
All the best of luck in any choice you make.
-
Kblue you need to find a mixer with wired control or built in control. I would not recommend the DL32R. I would not want to explain to the Church council why the sound system was not controllable. Please come back for next weeks service. :)
The right tool for the job is what I recommend and it's not live mixers especially for untrained operators.
-
I am going to spew my opinion here too...
The Mackie DL32R is an absolutely wonderful product PERIOD!
So is the Allen & Heath Qu line of mixers, I have them both and love and use them both.
By your post Kblue, it sounds to me as though you already know that the church's sound system will be used
without an operator a good part of the time, and perhaps without anyone even there that actually knows anything about it.
To purchase any digital console of any kind and expect it to come on with the master "PA SYSTEM ON/OFF" switch is sometimes possible, along with the lights and thermostat.
I know from experience that an analoge mixer is going to excell at this, mainly because it does not need to be "powered down" properly like most digital mixers require, and like a computer,
you should not just kill the power when you're done.
Here is the answer to one of your questions,...
Will the DL32R be loaded up with previous configuration without iPAD? I would like to know if pre-configured DL32R can be operated without iPAD just by turning on the power like analog mixer... Thank You
YES! But I would not ever recommend a digital mixer without an experienced operator that KNOWS what he/she is doing.
Let me explain a little further, today, most digital consoles are just as stable as the analog variety, but there is way more to the digital mixer, because it is capable of far more than one can imagine at first onlook.
There are people here on this forum that provide their opinion and don't even use the DL32R, I believe you are asking about buying a DL32R for your church.
I have used my DL32R now for close to one hundred events in a year, and it is 1000% reliable along with the iPad and Apple Express and Extreme routers.
And for my last arrogant "opinion" even though it is rather harsh, but completely experience based, I would not take a behringer mixer if it was free.
The right tool for the job is what I recommend and it's not live mixers especially for untrained operators.
Some excellent truth there.
Peace out :)
-
Kblue, DPdan and I rarely agree on much of anything but in this case the reason for untrained operators is the most compelling and we agree. There are companies that specialize in this kind of environment and it's not Behringer or A&H or Mackie. They have been here for decades. Polycom the leader, ClearOne, Biamp all have lots of experience in this kind of installation. Yes, Yamaha, Soundcraft, A&H, Behringer and many other live mixer manufacturers are found in churches but mostly because someone knows how to run them. The companies I mentioned are quite familiar with Corporate and Church installs where on/off, mute, volume are the only controls necessary. My wife's classroom install was one of these. Front panel lock and volume control. A great solution for knob twiddlers and creative students. Check them out.
My favorite for my usage is this.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=355.0
-
Thank You very much for great advice... I really appreciate...
In permanently installed environment, it is good thing if no one can change it...
With my current mixer, when I am not there and Mic has no sound coming out of speaker, people change things until they figure out MIC is not plugged into right port or batter is dead :facepalm:
That's why I am happy when I wasn't able to see control panel on DL32R...
But this seems to invite other problems...there are some events that I am not aware of or not able to attend...
Then I will have the following problem.
I would not want to explain to the Church council why the sound system was not controllable at last night wedding.
Portable device like iPAD doesn't go well either with permanent installation... I am a believer that I will not have iPAD when I actually need to use it.
(I lost three iphones last year. x()
As recommended here, I checked A&H qu-24...This unit appears very promising...(it appears that I don't need iPAD as it has full blown control panel and screen for graphics). I am gonna study their manual and ask some questions
Thank YOU Again
-
I'll "third" the recommendation of Biamp for automixers. They work quite well for what they're intended -- great for speech-based, and conferences. They can be interfaced with various hardware interfaces, such as those from Crestron, for this instances when manual control and "programming" is required.
However ...
If you have "live" situations, such as a praise band or orchestra, then these systems are not what you want, at least not for the entire system. But, I'll also agree with WK (with whom I often disagree :) ) that a digital mixer such as a Mackie DL or a Behringer X32/Midas T32 would not be a good choice if your operators are untrained. I've found that it's easier for inexperienced operators to wrap their heads around analog boards -- even complex boards like the big Allen & Heath, Yamaha, and others.
I'll also mention that Peavey and Crest Audio have lines of mixers that are specially designed with house of worship installations in mind. You won't find them at your local Guitar Center, though. I'd contact Charles Cassell at Audio Associates. Charles has years of experience in working with and designing systems like what you're looking for. He can be reached at 410-964-1212. You can tell him that I referred you.
-
Just FYI
My ultimate goal is a good sounding for live performance by praise team...It has to be noticeably better than mackie VLZ pro 24
if not, I will also have to explain to Church council why.
We had Mackie VLZ pro 24 for 12 years... There are a few folks in our church who think they know how to use it...
Main reason I am interested in DSP mixer is its in-built compressor/gate, 4-band EQ etc...
With my current mackie, I can't even dream to have individual compressor for each of singers, guitar, etc (about 10 inputs) because of space.
I also like dynamic range of new pre-amp compared to my mackie where I have to hit pre fairly hard to make a good sound( i have about 300ft cable runs between mic and mixer)...
-
It's going to take a lot more than a mixer to get better sound and without a LOT more info and a view of the venue, no-one here would claim such a possibility. Don't even have a point of reference. What's with the 300 ft. of cable?
P.S. you might want to update your profile on where you are.
-
"However ...
If you have "live" situations, such as a praise band or orchestra, then these systems are not what you want, at least not for the entire system. But, I'll also agree with WK (with whom I often disagree :) ) that a digital mixer such as a Mackie DL or a Behringer X32/Midas M32 would not be a good choice if your operators are untrained. I've found that it's easier for inexperienced operators to wrap their heads around analog boards -- even complex boards like the big Allen & Heath, Yamaha, and others."
My turn to disagree :) . I would not throw hundreds of knobs at the uninitiated (analog). My experience especially in schools and other places is that it's always a challenge for someone to keep their fingers off the knobs. They may be able to get a sound eventually out of the unit but what a sound? I have used the XAP800 in live performances and with great success. The pre's for example are quite good, no 20 cent op-amps, a lot more linear and faster with $6 op amps and better matched low noise JFets. Try 15 eq's, compressors and delays in addition to the traditional 3. Crossovers etc. Full matrix routing, test signal generator and the list goes on. Setup requires experience, operating very little.
-
The reason I said better sound is to give some reference point about what I need to those who suggesting polycom or biamp... :mrgreen:
I would have to explain church council why I installed mixer made by a company who builds speech-device like phone and video conf...
I found compress was very important for live vocal...specially for female singers whose voice becomes so sharp and loud all of sudden at high tone...
And many times, a guest speaker comes too close to condenser mic with loud voice...
-
You also forgot the thousands of churches. It clearly depends on your level of experience and confidence since it will ultimately rest on your shoulders. Try not to make too many assumptions in your search. ;)
Cheers
-
What's with the 300 ft. of cable?
Straight run of about 15 cables, each shield/twisted pair of AWG 22(don't remember it was solid or stranded wire),
both end terminated by XLR female and male.
XLR male ports plugged directly to mixer XLR ports.
XLR females are mounted on patch bay where 8 mic's, keyboard(s), and guitar(s) are connected via XLR, or XLR/DI/ 1/4".
All of lines carry 48V phantom power while there is only one condenser mic. (VLZ pro has no individual phantom control)
And we are using wireless stage monitor that singers are "hating" because it has only one channel... :mrgreen:
(This single-channel monitor decision is made by Church council...)
-
You also forgot the thousands of churches.
I am wondering what mixer they are using for their praise team...
-
Ah yes, a sound system designed by committee and politics. I think you may want to get some local qualified outside help on this before cobbling more together. With 200-300 members it cant be much of a budget.
Good Luck
-
I think you may want to get some local qualified outside help on this before cobbling more together. With 200-300 members it cant be much of a budget.
Good Luck
Thank You
To replace our old mixer, I think I am OK with qu-24 unless I found something else.
After changing mixer, my next project would be to replace speaker and Amp...
I would need some outside help... My church ceiling is only about 20 ~ 25ft...
-
The pre's for example are quite good, no 20 cent op-amps, a lot more linear and faster with $6 op amps and better matched low noise JFets.
I am a retired engineer (not audio engineer) but very familiar with signal-to-noise ratio stuff...
Just wondering if you know typical noise figure (or noise temp) of those low noise JFETs typically used as 1st stage amp ?
-
If you're not stuck for space, for your environment I suggest you buy a mixer with faders and iPad / Android remote control.
Perhaps a little more expensive than the Beh....er x series, but imho with a whole lot friendlier user interface (amongst it's many attributes) is the Allen Heath QU series.
Well worth a look and a pretty solid and safe investment for your church.
-
"However ...
If you have "live" situations, such as a praise band or orchestra, then these systems are not what you want, at least not for the entire system. But, I'll also agree with WK (with whom I often disagree :) ) that a digital mixer such as a Mackie DL or a Behringer X32/Midas M32 would not be a good choice if your operators are untrained. I've found that it's easier for inexperienced operators to wrap their heads around analog boards -- even complex boards like the big Allen & Heath, Yamaha, and others."
My turn to disagree :) . I would not throw hundreds of knobs at the uninitiated (analog). My experience especially in schools and other places is that it's always a challenge for someone to keep their fingers off the knobs. They may be able to get a sound eventually out of the unit but what a sound? I have used the XAP800 in live performances and with great success. The pre's for example are quite good, no 20 cent op-amps, a lot more linear and faster with $6 op amps and better matched low noise JFets. Try 15 eq's, compressors and delays in addition to the traditional 3. Crossovers etc. Full matrix routing, test signal generator and the list goes on. Setup requires experience, operating very little.
I only made this comment based on the experience of actually doing it. I find that it's far easier for the uninitiated to equate an analog board to something they're familiar with (I tell them it's just like a big stereo setup, which usually puts them at ease pretty quickly). I start with the basics, and add as needed.
I guess it's all in the approach, but I've always found it easier to train people on analog first, then they can pretty easily make the leap to a digital.
-
Ah yes, a sound system designed by committee and politics. I think you may want to get some local qualified outside help on this before cobbling more together. With 200-300 members it cant be much of a budget.
Good Luck
That's why I suggested he talk to Charles.... :)
-
You also forgot the thousands of churches.
I am wondering what mixer they are using for their praise team...
I've seen everything from mid-sized Mackies to huge 64 channel Allen & Heath GL3800s. And some have more than one space, with different systems in each.
-
The reason I said better sound is to give some reference point about what I need to those who suggesting polycom or biamp... :mrgreen:
I would have to explain church council why I installed mixer made by a company who builds speech-device like phone and video conf...
I found compress was very important for live vocal...specially for female singers whose voice becomes so sharp and loud all of sudden at high tone...
And many times, a guest speaker comes too close to condenser mic with loud voice...
Biamp is an audio systems company, first and foremost. Telephony is a relatively recent add for them (and, like audio, they do it quite well).
Polycom is a teleconferencing company first, anything else secondary.
-
It seems to me that you need two systems here. A system which works well for simple speech and recorded music, un-supervised and another for the praise band. The former is never going to be a satisfactory solution for a live music based service/event, the latter will never be suitable for unsupervised operation. I'd have a small simple analogue desk (A&H Zed 10 or similar) on stage and a digital desk at the mix position. If budget will allow a digital stagebox would give you plenty of I/O for extra monitors. If budget is tight the only game in town is the Behringer X32/S16 setup (an X32 Compact and single S16 costs around €3000 an A&H Qu24 is €3800 with stagebox).
-
The pre's for example are quite good, no 20 cent op-amps, a lot more linear and faster with $6 op amps and better matched low noise JFets.
I am a retired engineer (not audio engineer) but very familiar with signal-to-noise ratio stuff...
Just wondering if you know typical noise figure (or noise temp) of those low noise JFETs typically used as 1st stage amp ?
Ultra low noise Jfets and other input transistors are usually classified in this app by 1/f spec in < 1nV/√Hz . I was involved in the late 70's in a far more demanding preamp app for counting electrons. Input transistors at LN temperatures. Here is a current article that covers the various noise sources of the type I'm talking about.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168900215009766
Granted audio app needs nowhere near this low noise since passive components become the major source of noise and Jfets less of a source. Hence quality low noise resistors, caps etc. play a role in good preamp design. Mackie actually used NPN Epitaxial's 2SA1084 for their first stage in the 1604 series. Onyx pre's varied with different input transistors for different models. A good source for preamp info is That Corp and Jensen transformers. Basic preamp design note from That.
http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/dn109.pdf
300 ft of cable isn't helping in your case. Check the impedance of each of the twisted pairs and you'll see what I'm talking about. Bill Whitlock covers that nicely in his app notes on CMRR. What Engineering field did you practice?
P.S. If your background noise is in the 60 - 80 dBSPL range none of the above matters since it is lost in the noise (pun intended). Church app is much quieter hopefully.
-
What Engineering field did you practice?
Thanks for the info...
I was initially Telecom-backbone Eng... I went through so many technology changes... Spent a lot of time on early-day Internet backbone...
I was sick and tired of man-made logic... So I changed it to RF(active and passive) where more law of physics (God-made logic) plays...
Still doing some consulting work as spec writer...
Lowest Frequency I ever dealt with is around 950 MHz...generally, 14 - 30 GHz... all modulated digital signal...
This Audio world has been always amazing...100 Hz to 20,000 Hz(whatever highest)...200 times wavelength difference...
I need to read manual A&H Qu 24...
-
300 ft of cable isn't helping in your case. Check the impedance of each of the twisted pairs and you'll see what I'm talking about. Bill Whitlock covers that nicely in his app notes on CMRR. What Engineering field did you practice?
I read it very briefly by skipping some details (It has been so long I ever dealt with Op AMP...) but very interesting fact about balanced circuit.
In shielded twist pair, I seem to understand potential creation of unequal capacitance between two inner conductors in reference to the shield and this will be amplified by Diff Op-Amp... This is very good...
Maybe the problem we are having with keyboard connection is related to ground terminated both end. I will take a look at it.
I guess I need to isolate GND at DI.
Not familiar with MIC circuitry, but my gut feeling tells me shield can not be removed at receive side for passive mic and pre interface...
What about active mic like phantom? Is ground pin in XLR used for 48V return?
-
I pretty much covered the gamut from X-rays to audio. Just haven't got to subsonic, it's hard to keep a whale for a pet. :) The impedance mismatch gets past the differential input circuit as noise. You definitely have two totally different ground potentials being 300 ft apart. A DI box is a essential audio tool and if it's noise from the KB the Di box will deal with it. Passive at mixer end is my preference. Yes the shield is the 48V return in the XLR.
Bill Whitlocks app notes AN003,004,006,007,009 pretty well cover all those issues.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/application-notes/
P.S. most KB are unbalanced outputs and 300 ft. is going to be a problem.
-
I don't have a good idea of the actual church layout but you said it was a 300 ft straight shot for the cables. That would be a problem for wireless as well at a 100 meters for FOH. Any chance to move closer? Also since you have 15 cables and your typical use is 10 what is the need for a 24 input mixer? Your condenser mic is what brand and model?
-
As WK says pin 1 (ground) is 48V -ve and pins 2 and 3 carry equal potential (48V +ve) so there is no potential between them (which would damage dynamic mics). I would have thought the DI needs to be at the keyboard so that most of that 300' run is balanced?
I guess the 300' run follows a convoluted path and the mix position is somewhat closer to the stage as the dove flies? 300' from stage to mix position might be alright at Woodstock but indoors...... (and would represent a delay of around ⅓ sec).
If you choose to go digital with faders a digital snake would remove all those issues (though 300' is towards the extreme end of what cat6s can handle in that context). Another option might be a side of stage desk position and cover the FOH mix wirelessly from the floor with an iPad (more than adequate for 10 channels). Whether you go for a desk with faders or a rack mount stagebox style like the DL32R (or Berry X32 Rack) I would still consider the small analogue desk as a backup/un-attended solution.
-
As Sam pointed out a 300 ft. run would have to be balanced. The Di needs to be close to the KB but if you still have problems beyond that a receiver DI would be necessary. They are not inexpensive.
-
I pretty much covered the gamut from X-rays to audio. Just haven't got to subsonic, it's hard to keep a whale for a pet.
So what do you think electric signal? wave or particle?
I did test yesterday...trying many different options... It seems KB GND itself has not that good...
Or signal ground is isolated from DC ground. (I doubt it)
When toggle SW at LIFT at DI, I heard some hum sound and when GND, hum is gone.
I tried to isolate pin 1 on XLR at mixer side, noise was still there.
Also, KB generates noise at around 400Hz... I had to use mid-band EQ to kill it.
(They said KB is at least 10 year old and some of key was broken...evidence that it has been dropped hard ).
After changing to another KB, everything seems OK.
But Church Praise team wants to buy another KB...Kurzwell Artis 88-Key Statge Piano (whatever this is)
I want to buy A&H QU-16 as FOH and extension unit at stage for Drum, KB, acoustic guitar, and base guitar.
What extension unit do you recommend for QU-16?
There has been a long history of problem with drum sound... it becomes too loud and can't control it.
Currently, acoustic drum is getting dust...
I am looking for sound shield and mic system so that I can control sound by mixer...
(I would greatly appreciate if someone can recommend )
The order of what I need are
Main FOH MIXER and extension unit at stage
KB
DRUM sound SHIELD and mics
Speakers (Maybe PA)
These have to be done over the time due to lack of budget...
-
I'm gonna go with Albert and those photons that are going to save our collective a..es this century. Lots of free energy hitting this planet just need an efficient way to use it. That's on it's way.
How about a pic of your problem and some model # of what you have. KB sounds like it needs replacement.
P.S. wrong end to lift ground on.
-
I'm gonna go with Albert and those photons that are going to save our collective a..es this century.
I would like you to see this... @ 3:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdoE1vX7k4
Quantum Mechanics is science/engineering field where most money was invested... Observing device is connected to some kind of recording device at another room. If recording sw is on, it becomes particle and if recording sw is off, it becomes wave...
But scientist can not resolve this... Studying wave Vs particle is career-ending field so nobody wants to study this because this is something beyond current science is based.
How about a pic of your problem and some model # of what you have. KB sounds like it needs replacement.
P.S. wrong end to lift ground on.
Will do pic later.
I know it was wrong end to lift gnd... So I hooked up small XLR patch cable with pin 1 disconnected at mixer side...but humming noise was there...
But yes, I think KB is the problem...
-
You'll need an A&H AR2412 or AB168 to accompany a Qu series mixer. Generally you can't mix and match digital desks and stageboxes as most manufacturers use their own protocol. (Berry AES50, A&H dSnake etc). A more expensive/professional solution would be Dante. another expensive add on but it does allow different makes of mixer to converse.
-
You can easily fix the drum problem by getting the drummer to develop some low volume skills. That is the sign of a much better drummer. (And it is so rare.) I have a friend who can play down to cocktail level without resorting to brushes. He's an amazing talent. Matter of fact, I've never seen him use brushes and they are sitting there in his stick bag. I know fixing the drummer is unlikely, but it is cheap and even better than shields. (Way better than shields.)
-
You can easily fix the drum problem by getting the drummer to develop some low volume skills. That is the sign of a much better drummer. (And it is so rare.) I have a friend who can play down to cocktail level without resorting to brushes. He's an amazing talent. Matter of fact, I've never seen him use brushes and they are sitting there in his stick bag. I know fixing the drummer is unlikely, but it is cheap and even better than shields. (Way better than shields.)
Main praise team used to have a good dreamer who could play quietly... he no longer plays...
Sometimes, young adult praise team performs at main chapel...This has always been disastrous...
Their drummer used to play elec drum...when he played acoustic, it is loudest. So hard to hear vocals...
Sometimes, I am surprised young people don't get bothered by this kinda of music... :o
-
Presently the understanding of Quantum Mechanics doesn't scale very well, so I guess we'll have to look for that transitional explanation. In the mean time someone calculated that 3 yrs. collection of energy hitting this planet would supply all the electricity on this planet for the next 36,000 years. Several companies are at the verge of upping the efficiency of conversion to 90+% so sell your oil stock. Your own power source no more power cables.
This is where in your case a few measuring tools would pinpoint the problem, although the KB is part of the problem. Cable could be aggravating the situation.
The drummer problem won't go away until you can control the level, that means no acoustic drum set. Save your budget.
Sam you just broke the budget.
P.S. that brought me back to 1960 when three of us in H.S. were interviewing for a University and we ended up at a eating club (Princeton U's version of Fraternities). The next table was occupied with a rather healthy discussion between Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Robert Oppenheimer and another P.U. professor, something I'll never forget.
-
Well I have been suggesting a X32 Compact at stage side with an iPad for FOH mixing....... t'wasn't me who suggested the A&H Qu route..... :mrgreen:
Get the drummer to invest in some very light sticks (my old, now retired, drummer used to call them his 'knitting needles'). Much cheaper than a e-drum kit (or screens for that matter).