Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Jooles15 on September 17, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
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I’ve created separate songs within a show all with subtley differing EQ settings. Due to room acoustics, I am expecting to want to EQ the master out channel feeding L and R during sound check for each song. Is there a very quick way of applying such a change to multiple songs? We can play 30 to 40 songs in a long set. Thanks.
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Welcome to the forum!
you can make and recall your own EQ presets...
(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/presets.jpg)
but why in the world would you want the mains EQ to change just because you are playing a different song? :facepalm:
You are making things way more complicated for yourself
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Thanks for that, that’s useful to know. The reason I want different EQ for each song is that there are just 2 of us, I play all Guitar parts and my partner sings. We play to bass and drum backing tracks and the EQ of the backing tracks varies significantly. Having an EQ setting for each song allows me to carefully EQ the backing track and has made world of difference to the sound and balance of sound between each song.
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My two cents. I really like a PA to be flat response across the audio spectrum. Take pink noise into a channel and out to your speakers, then take a reference microphone and input into a different channel that is only going out to a separate AUX channel and RTA that channel. Use that to EQ your output until the pink noise is coming back late then save the EQ settings with a name that tells you what it is. While this doesn't work perfectly, it works well enough for nearly all rooms to get a good sound. You can always use the PEQ to tailor a room to taste.
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Thanks for that, that’s useful to know. The reason I want different EQ for each song is that there are just 2 of us, I play all Guitar parts and my partner sings. We play to bass and drum backing tracks and the EQ of the backing tracks varies significantly. Having an EQ setting for each song allows me to carefully EQ the backing track and has made world of difference to the sound and balance of sound between each song.
Then you need to change the EQ to your tracks channel, not the mains. When you change the mains, it will be affecting your vocal and guitar mics.
The EQ on the mains is for room acoustics. As Wynnd posted, you want the PA to be linear (or flat) across the sound spectrum.
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I was going to say what Steve already did...
change the EQ on the tracks channel/s, not the mains.
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That’s what I’ve done, I’ve changed the EQ on the backing track channel for each song, what I want to do is identify an easy solution for changing the main L and R out track EQ on all songs to suit room acoustics. 😁👍
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That’s what I’ve done, I’ve changed the EQ on the backing track channel for each song, what I want to do is identify an easy solution for changing the main L and R out track EQ on all songs to suit room acoustics. 😁👍
I think you are confusing the role of L&R and any other speakers which would present your sound to the audience in a venue (room acoustics) with individual sound sources (Backing tracks and Voice and Guitar) a totally separate issue. As I perceive it you need to re-record your backing tracks to your liking without room acoustics interfering with quality headphones and then adjust your room acoustics as a separate step. Songs will have different frequency content and will affect room acoustics hence the recommendation to use pink noise for room acoustic correction. If you can't find a third party to evaluate yourself live then record yourself s and do soundcheck live in the audience area. Most of us don't get that time luxury so a lot is done on the fly using your ears, a hard thing to do as one of two performers. The goal is to be consistent. You do however need a functional DL1608.
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My approach has been similar, adjusting each backing track not through headphones but in my rehearsal space, my intention being to then adjust for venue room acoustics using a global EQ if such a process exists. Not come across the term ‘pink noise’ before, is this an audio equivalent of a screen Test card (apologies if you’re not uk based and do not recognise this term!)
I am almost entirely new to sound engineering, only really having guessed my way through with reasonable results. I really want to learn in order to exploit the DL and maximise the quality of our sound.
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Re-reading my answer it was probably not clear (corrected in post) as to the reason for headphone listening. It was to avoid more room acoustics such as the rehearsal space from affecting your evaluation. Pink noise like Video Screen Test Card is to provide a full (or not) frequency range (20 -20K) steady signal so you can adjust the audio. Used mostly in conjunction with a RTA or good ears. You have a noble goal but remember it's good not to adopt bad habits since they're hard to change. A good book or some of the U-tube tutorials from Pro's may be a good start. Plenty of practice won't hurt either. Also keep in mind that the mixer is not a fix-all for a poor performance. The saying in audio is that "less is more" applies here. Lastly is your DL1608 charging problem solved? There are a few UK folks on this board that may be of help. Yes there are mathematical ways to define room acoustics but they are not used in live performances AFAIK.
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Charging problem unresolved so have arranged to exchange the unit with the retailer.
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My approach has been similar, adjusting each backing track not through headphones but in my rehearsal space, my intention being to then adjust for venue room acoustics using a global EQ if such a process exists. Not come across the term ‘pink noise’ before, is this an audio equivalent of a screen Test card (apologies if you’re not uk based and do not recognise this term!)
I am almost entirely new to sound engineering, only really having guessed my way through with reasonable results. I really want to learn in order to exploit the DL and maximise the quality of our sound.
If I understand correctly, you want to use the Main EQ (which is global, as it comes after everything else), and then save it for each venue? You can save each show and give it a name. I typically save my shows under the band's name, but sometimes I also use the venue name. Is that what you're asking?
Pink noise is a sound that can be generated through your PA - basically all frequencies, so it's a huge "hissing" sound. This is used in conjunction with a special mic and measuring device to help determine the room acoustics.
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Yes that’s it. I have created different shows for different venues and the idea is to set the main EQ for those venues. It appears though, that you can’t EQ a show, only individual songs within that show. Probably be easier and quicker to simply tweek the EQ controls on my PA speakers if time is not on my side which it rarely is when you’re the guitar player and sound guy. Thinking about training up our singer’s husband on the DL so he can sit in the audience, adjust and save.
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Yes that’s it. I have created different shows for different venues and the idea is to set the main EQ for those venues. It appears though, that you can’t EQ a show, only individual songs within that show. Probably be easier and quicker to simply tweek the EQ controls on my PA speakers if time is not on my side which it rarely is when you’re the guitar player and sound guy. Thinking about training up our singer’s husband on the DL so he can sit in the audience, adjust and save.
The main EQ is exactly that, an EQ for your show. This is the EQ that is located directly above the master volume fader. There is a 31 band, and a parametric EQ. Both can be used simultaneously. I suggest you use the parametric, which looks exactly like the channel EQ's.
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We play 30 songs in a show, this means adjusting the EQ over the main volume slider 30 times per venue.
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We play 30 songs in a show, this means adjusting the EQ over the main volume slider 30 times per venue.
This is what you said 2 posts ago:
"Yes that’s it. I have created different shows for different venues and the idea is to set the main EQ for those venues. It appears though, that you can’t EQ a show.
I think we are all still confused on what you are trying to accomplish.
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Okay, it’s pretty straightforward. I use rhythm section backing tracks when I play, the sources of these is varied and therefore some are very bassy, others ice pick high. To ensure a balance from one track to the next during our show, I have created separate songs within a show through which each track can be eq’d in a way that deals with the issues inherent to the source material. So, our set list (show in Mackie speak) may consist of 30 songs and I have thereforecreated 30 different songs within that show, each with different settings to suit the characteristics of each backing g track. Having a separate setting for each song within a show also enables me to EQ other sources differently to suit the mix of the song, for example, a song that uses a backing track that is predominantly bass may require a lift on the rhythm guitar and vocal to ensure balance. I have done this with success and am happy with the outcome. The final requirement for me is an ability to apply a final venue specific EQ to all songs in a show to suit the acoustics of that venue. Some venues will naturally emphasise bass sounds, given this I would want to reduce the bass content if all 30 songs. I am looking for an easy / quick way to do this but can’t find one on the DL. I’m therefore tuning EQ for the venue by adjusting my speakers through their own dedicated EQ control on the back of each (powered) speaker.
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in my opinion and if I were you,
I would fix your issues by having all of your songs "mastered" so that from track to track they will not need any EQing or level adjustment.
I completely understand your desire, and I would master them for you for "FREE"
you can contact me through my website if you like.
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I'm fully with Dan on this - if you're already creating EQ settings for each of these songs, why not simply apply them to the backing audio file and save them as new files in any simple audio editor?
You COULD work your way around the issue by creating mixer snapshots for every song and set the LR main output to channel safe in the Show page. Then set your room EQ on the main output; since you've activated channel safe, your EQ settings for the LR channel will not be affected by the snapshot/scene changes.
But really, why go through all that trouble when you can simply re-save the backing files with your EQ settings inprinted?
Cheers,
Torsten
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Thanks both, that makes sense but I don’t have any software that would be adequate to do that, happy to invest in it but my ability would take much longer to acquire. That’s a great offer Dan, what is your website? Thank you.
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Hi Jooles,
https://www.kurysound.com
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Thanks both, that makes sense but I don’t have any software that would be adequate to do that, happy to invest in it but my ability would take much longer to acquire. That’s a great offer Dan, what is your website? Thank you.
Jooles you already have everything to do the job it's a DL1608. Since you are already playing the backing tracks through the DL all you need is another iPad, iPhone or other recorder to record the results, and yes those quality headphones I mentioned earlier. If you want to polish the results somewhat then use Audacity, a free sound editor, very easy to use. The process will give you the much needed practice with the DL. In the future if you want more specific answers then much more detail is required. We only know that you have a DL1608 and powered speakers of unknown make. No idea of your guitar setup or for that matter what type of guitar. The source of those infamous backing tracks for sure. Since you are new at this let me help you with a general list.
Genre, typical Venue (Pub etc.), Mics, mixer, amp, speakers and any other relevant gear make and model and any other specifics regarding your problem. You're focused on Eq but it's only the tip of the iceberg to achieve good sound.
Dan, a Very Very generous offer or a senior moment. We know you would do a great job but would it be the groups signature sound? Something they should participate in creating first.
That ancient proverb "You can feed a man for a day or you can teach him how to fish for life" comes to mind. Where is that choir when you need them :)
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a senior moment,,,, I can relate :lol:
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I really think you should go with the re-EQing of the backing tracks. Doing the "homework" will make the gig go better and let you consentrate on playing. Depending on the source of the backing tracks, the EQ and volumes can really differ. This would be similar to "mastering" a recording in the studio. Audacity is a good free PC program and there are other DAW's that you could accomplish this with.
You could do this a few songs at a time and see how it works out at a gig.
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In closing I think your aforementioned idea of "Thinking about training up our singer’s husband on the DL so he can sit in the audience, adjust and save. " is the best idea yet since the laws of Physics prevent you from mixing and playing at the same time.
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Thanks to you all for your help on this, much appreciated. We’re playing a gig Saturday night, we’ve EQ’d the first half set during rehearsals (trained up my guy on the DL and he sat in the hall where we rehearse adjusting levels and EQ). We have the second half set somewhere pretty close (levels about right) and he will adjust these songs live Saturday night sat in the audience.
One further question if I could - with the iPad flat / disconnected the DL still processes sound, is it only processing the raw sound via the gain knob settings or does it use some other default?
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The DL1608 will use all settings to process the sound until you change it with the iPad. The iPad never processes any sound. The DL will retain all those settings if you loose connection or power. It will use the last settings when powering back on. Glad we could help.
Cheers and let us know how it went.
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Okay, the day after the night before. FOH sound pretty good, the room was a bit of a nightmare reflecting all over the place but we managed. The issue was stage sound, awful. We have a Matrix FR12 (FRFR) cab through which all sound passes pointing at the audience to complement our pair of 15 inch PA speakers and a 10 inch Laney monitor on the floor. The Matrix sounds amazing but is very focussed, you stand slightly to one side and it’s like a low pass filter has been added, all you get is the bass part of the spectrum. The Laney wedge is deliberately trebly to cut through. Our sound guy was happy with the FOH sound (ish, vocal could have been higher but feedback threatened so he dropped all other channels but everything was then too quiet). The biggest issue was stage sound, it sounded terrible to us and we want to enjoy the gig too. One easy fix is monitor levels, I have this controlled separately through the DL and this needs sorting for each song, some we could barely hear, others were blowing us off the stage with high volume treble 😬. This I can fix. I’m thinking about using the matrix as an additional monitor so we get a rich sound that closely resembles that heard by our audience.
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Great at least your audience got good sound. I wouldn't turn that Matrix on you (feedback city) instead I would look at IEM's (there's only two of you) especially since your FOH guy is new at this. You need to fix that backing track. Did you fix any of it? Your setup is bass heavy all around and your Vocal (female) can't go below 120Hz unless she's grown a beard. Remember that list I gave you it will come in handy for sound (pun intended) :) advice. Do you have anything wireless (besides the iPad)?
Cheers
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Hello again, can’t work this one out.....
I have my main PA speakers connected to Main Outs L and R and a monitor connected to Aux 1. When I change the volume slider setting on a given channel, I want the the volume of that channel to change on both the Main Outs 1 and 2 (what the audience hear) and my monitor (what I hear). I’ve played around with VCA’s and feel I fully understand what they do but it strikes me that they are not the answer anyway.
Help!
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Got it. Post fader 👍😁
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understanding a VCA...
imagine an analog soundboard in a church with four choir mics...
every time the choir sings, we bring up all four choir mic faders...
use scotch tape to attach a pencil to all four faders...
we have now "assigned" all four choir faders to the pencil (VCA)...
when we grab the pencil and raise and lower the faders, all four faders move in tandem.
That is how a VCA works.
Audio signals of the choir microphones never pass through the VCA (pencil)...
The pencil is simply a remote control that remotely controls faders that are (taped) assigned to it.
Instead of assigning all the drum mics to a group which is so common, try assigning them to a VCA instead, that way, as you raise and lower the DRUMS VCA,
the reverb of the drums will also change accordingly, provided the reverb sends are "post fader" as they should be.
That's it......... 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wf02zpVb30
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Thanks.
Okay, got another. Got my PA running off L and R main and Stage monitors off Aux 1 and 2. I’ve set Aux 1 and 2 to Post Fader. I’ve now found that when I EQ a channel in either Main, Aux 1 or Aux 2, it also alters the EQ in the same channel in the other 2. How do I change this so I can EQ each independently?
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I’ve now found that when I EQ a channel in either Main, Aux 1 or Aux 2, it also alters the EQ in the same channel in the other 2. How do I change this so I can EQ each independently?
No straightforward way to do this - there's only one EQ per channel, not multiple instances (which you'd need if you wanted to have independent EQ settings per output).
There are two ways around this:
1. One typical approach is to make your monitor outputs pre-eq and pre-fader - this means that any changes a sound man makes to tune the sound for the audience doesn't affect your monitor channels. This also means that you don't have any EQ on the individual signals you use for your monitor and that you need to set your levels independently - something a lot of artists like, because they don't want the soundman lowering their levels for the audience affect their monitor signal. But that seems to be contrary to what you wanted to achieve with setting auxes to post-fader
2. if you have enough channels, you can use multiple copies of the same input signal (simply patch the same input to multiple channels) so you have e.g. "Vocals P.A.", "Vocals monitor" on separate channels on your mixer. This means that you can eq (and compress!) them differently between audience and monitor, but it also means that you won't get the corresponding fader volumes between P.A. and monitor that you want to have.
Cheers,
Torsten
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Okay, thank you. It was a ‘nice to do if possible’ so no worries.