Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: yigba on January 29, 2014, 03:06:19 PM
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Maybe I'm missing something.
Just do your mix on an aux and send that to an outside recorder. A 16 channel mix - done.
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The issue is with 16 channel multitrack recording not just 16 channels down to stereo (which the DL does just fine with a minor workaround). All the competitors (Presonus, Behringer X32, X18, etc,) have this feature.
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What Sam said.
To elaborate: when mixing live, you are dealing with the room as well as the basic balance of the tracks. Mixing through aux is a decent workaround, but even then you have bleed-through on your headphones that affects the quality of the mix. If you can multi-track record the show, you can re-mix it later for a better balanced final mix - something you might even be able to release as an album.
I tell bands I'll give them a board-mix recording of the show (this weekend I got it working right again, yay!) - most of them understand what that means.
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Understood.
But I would think a little trial and error would get your mix where you want/need it to be.
BTW - my first digital mixer and I love it, warts and all.
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Even in million dollar recording studios the tracks are mixed after the actual recording. So I doubt a little trial and error would get you what you want. Even the ability to mix multitrack recordings in live shows may not give you exactly what you want. But, it sure would be closer.
Yigba, the only place I kind of side with you here is that the dl1608 has no, and will never have, multitrack capabilities. So anyone here asking for it, or complaining about it, has the wrong mixer.
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It's a geezer bar band playing classic rock. Not playing Madison Square Garden. So a decent mix is all I need or would ever want.
I agree - why complain if you knew going in what it was capable of. Buy once, cry once.
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The early adopters amongst us, by and large, don't complain about the lack of multitrack recording, as you say we bought with our eyes open. Some will comment that it was an omission that Mackie may regret but so it goes :-[
You can get reasonable stereo desk recordings if you run a reasonably quiet stage and use an aux or two for FOH (or as you say an aux to an external recorder), they're never going to be as useful as a full multitrack would be but for post mortem duties they are fine (as long as the band aren't going to complain the vox were too loud and they couldn't hear the lead guitar >:(
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Yigba. Maybe you have an old geezer band playing classic rock. And maybe you don't care about multitrack recording. That's fine for you. But others want and need it. And are not old classic rock geezers like you.
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I've been able to multi-track 16 channels from my mixer since about 2008. (Alesis Multimix 16 firewire) Looks like they are available used in a lot of places. So if that's the only thing bugging you about the DL1608, spend a little money. But make sure you have a Mac with firewire, cause I've rarely had any success with PCs and firewire with an external firewire drive. (a necessity on a notebook. USB 2 isn't fast enough. USB 3 probably is.)
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One more point about using aux for mains, and main for recording VS multitracking. Although the aux method gets you abetted mix you still have to spend time setting it up. Sometimes this takes a ton if time. More than the live mix. With multitrack you don't have to do anything. You can mix at your own leisure.
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I've been able to multi-track 16 channels from my mixer since about 2008. (Alesis Multimix 16 firewire) Looks like they are available used in a lot of places. So if that's the only thing bugging you about the DL1608, spend a little money. But make sure you have a Mac with firewire, cause I've rarely had any success with PCs and firewire with an external firewire drive. (a necessity on a notebook. USB 2 isn't fast enough. USB 3 probably is.)
Wynnd, I hope this want directed at me. I have never said it's bugging me. I knew exactly what I was getting into. And FYI I now have the x32 rack. It can do multitrack recording just fine. But I'll almost never use it live. My main reason for multitrack recording is for virtual sound checks. But even when I had my presonus in never really did that.
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But others want and need it.
Again, understood. But then buy the correct product.
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I can see the virtual sound checks. I don't see them in my life, but then again, I like to set my system up with the vocal mics at nearly even intensity through the trims so that I can run the channels at 0 db on the faders for a starting point. (Easy when always doing the same band.) That was a pretty neat trick that Presonus introduced us to. (Wonder if it was out there on a prior mixer I would never consider because the price was too high to look at?) I find the DL's recording to be useful for analyzing a show afterwards. (If only I had a lot of time for that.)
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I can see the virtual sound checks. I don't see them in my life, but then again, I like to set my system up with the vocal mics at nearly even intensity through the trims so that I can run the channels at 0 db on the faders for a starting point. (Easy when always doing the same band.) That was a pretty neat trick that Presonus introduced us to. (Wonder if it was out there on a prior mixer I would never consider because the price was too high to look at?)
The Avid Venues have had virtual soundcheck for some time now using either their HDx or FWx cards and ProTools. The "old skool" method is to use a multitrack recorder through the line inputs on the desk. Not quite the same though. But some tours had been doing it as far back as the ADAT and Tascam DA88 era, the first truly portable high quality 8 track machines.
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Wynnd please don't propagate the fables regarding multichannel recording. There are a multitude of products in the market today doing just that with a lot less capable equipment including the one you own. To get technical again the DSP in the DL has 8 channels of serial lines each capable of 33Mbps of data transfer. AFAIK these are being used to communicate with the iPad. Let me do the math real quick that anyone can understand. Sixteen input channels times data rate (48K) times (24) bits times overhead of 20% (1.2) equals ~ 22Mbps a reasonable margin left for 33 Mbps. This can be handled by USB 2.0 in in normal or the high speed mode of 480 Mbps. Going to 96K which brings it to 44 Mbps still is no problem for 2 channels. This of course is proven by lots of product out there. To argue against something like this is sheer stupidity. The DL could possibly challenge a Yamaha standard (24/96) since 2003 that is getting long in the tooth called the O1V96i a market that has been dominated by Yamaha for a long time. Of course Mackie's service needs to go up a couple of notches to compete. :) Oh yeah and the software needs to be rock solid.
Math corrected. No-one caught it. Finally correct I think.
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There you go WK154, trying to confuse folks with facts again :facepalm: .
;D
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There you go WK154, trying to confuse folks with facts again :facepalm: .
;D
Yeah I know a bad habit of mine, but I can't help myself.
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If I understand you correctly, you think that the DL has the horse power to handle 16 channel recording. That's nice to know. I'm pretty sure some headroom needs to be maintained to keep it from spitting up and stable software is always a good thing. Still if they were able to even go to 6 channel recording like taking all the Aux's and sending them recording, that would be a serious improvement in function. I have found many times when 16 channels weren't quite enough. On the other hand, I don't know how to incorporate this into Cubase while live. That was the great thing about the Alesis mixer. My only issue was deciding how to hook it all up. (Just used the Alesis for recording about two days ago to my 4 year old MacBook Pro.) Thanks for the researched info on the DL. I may never be able to use it, but it doesn't hurt to know about it either.
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Wynnd: The example I gave above was for the simple way to record by transferring PCM data for 16 channels which most do. However with all that spare processing power in the DL it would be possible to generate the AAC-LC format for 16 channels to the iPad. Here are some of the advantages over MP3 since it's the successor to MP3.
- More sample frequencies (from 8 to 96 kHz) than MP3 (16 to 48 kHz)
- Up to 48 channels (MP3 supports up to two channels in MPEG-1 mode and up to 5.1 channels in MPEG-2 mode)
- Arbitrary bit-rates and variable frame length. Standardized constant bit rate with bit reservoir.
and other features not too relevant here. Include an AAC codec (this is the only thing Mackie would have to license and it wouldn't break the bank) for recording and playback. This would be a simple file transfer to the iPad and not involve core audio. This would result in about a 7 to 10 fold decrease in data transfer due to compression. The software is already available if Mackie doesn't have the manpower. Progress seems to be slow at Mackie.
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Let me connect the dots now that 22 Mbps (for 16 channels) can be reduced let's say by 7 that puts it slightly above 3Mbps. The current limit to the DL is the 10/100 Mbps Ethernet since WiFi 802.11n can saturate it (150Mbps). Worst case the network at 50% (50 Mbps) and there's more than ample bandwidth to transmit 16 channels of AAC. Just another way in and out of the DL with the existing hardware. :)