Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Keyboard Magic on June 15, 2014, 01:30:27 PM
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Was given the opportunity to fill in to run sound for a venue that was using a new DL1608, 1 docked iPad, 1 wireless iPad, 3 choir mics and 1 mc wireless mic and playing backing tracks using AirPlay with iPod Touch. Had to do rehearsals all last week resulting in the DL running continuously for 6 hours at a time x 4 days. Not one sync issue at all.
The dress rehearsal is Monday aft, followed by the concert in the evening. Oh Yes it was a 30 pin. I brought my own iPads for backup. The wireless was excellent using AirPort Express. All iOS devices were iOS 7.1.1 and Master Fader was at 2.1.1.
I was quite impressed that the DL ran flawlessly the whole time and I hope that it will do so for the concert. I brought along my backup analog mixer just in case. Is this a fluke or just good luck? Maybe they got a good DL? I should’ve had that DL instead of mine. :P Has Mackie taken advice and made improvements?
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For every DL1608 problem, there are a bunch of people not having any problems. I'm one of those. To some degree, it might have something to do with less than perfect construction or parts. If it were just software, everyone would be experiencing problems. (My view.) There is always that part of me that considers that you are marrying two different products from two different manufacturers built in different parts of the world. The fact that so many work without any problems is close to a miracle. We probably shouldn't have expected things to work as well as they do.
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At the present time the loss of sync has not been fixed by Mackie. When it does get fixed it will be a headliner. By now we all know that YMMV and unless your staring at it for 6+ hrs. it can loose sync and recover without your knowledge. My recommendation for use of the DL is to charge it to 100% offline and reboot the iPad before the gig and use it undocked. KM you also didn't use record/playback thru the docked iPad thus avoiding a known problem.
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Not a fluke at all. I know of 7 or 8 1608's being used in my area with no issues whatsoever. Mine has worked flawlessly.
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WK;
I took a quote from your previous advice and others and have been running the setup wirelessly the whole time.
Even used wireless iPad sitting right next to the DL with it's docked iPad. I find it easier to run MF that way. And I certainly did not nor would have used the iPad channel as you mentioned. That's another can of worms!
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Well its probably no fluke that it works fine if you don't have a docked iPad playing audio. That's the only time I have any trouble.
Cheers
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So, this is the 3rd venue this week at the school that I am subbing for using the DL system. I have to say once more that it has been running at peak efficiency. No sync issues since I am using one iPad wirelessly for all shows. The docked iPad is powered but in standby mode, to be used only if the wireless dies. I am playing audio tracks with AirPlay only. Since the docked iPad display is blanked I wouldn't notice any sync issues, thankfully.
I am quite impressed indeed! To clarify, regarding my above post, that was rehearsal time and this is the actual live venues. I think this DL may actually keep on keepin' on. 8)
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I really have fallen in love with airplay. It's so easy to use when testing during setup. I always have my iphone on me so I don't have to go looking for anything extra. (It's also, so un-Apple in its use.)
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AirPlay is so cool, indeed. I like being able to use it with the windoze laptop too! 8)
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The concerts are over and now back to the search for a digital mixer. I was impressed with the schools DL. Only one tiny frustration though the mixer was located on stage and I was running remote from about 10 feet away. Had to push through parents to get at the mic pre's on the DL quite a few times, even though they were set at optimal, or so I thought.
This was the only time I would've liked software controlled mic pre's. ;) Can you say Behringer? :)
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KM I have said many times that the programable mic pre's are my number one reason for the upgrade. That's just one of many. But still at the top of my list. And it's not just for when you need to get back the pre's. You just plug everything in and walk away. You don't have to be at the board to set the initial gains. I have many times stuck my rack under a stage after I plugged everything in. I never saw the board until everything was over.
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Yep programable mic pre's are high on my list too, but I assume it would add to the price.
If money's tight I reckon the DL is still the best value.
Cheers
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There's frequently music playing in the background and I use that to level out the inputs. Trial and error leads me to understand about what level the VU meters need to be reading. This doesn't help on DIs. This is where working with the same band makes a big difference. Whenever working with a new band, there are teething problems. (I've got a sound job coming up early August where everything in this jazz group will be mic'd. Don't know if all the musicians will be the same as last year, but I did need to add the bassist to the mix.) I will probably start with my ipad docked and run around with my ipad mini.
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Yes, if you're going wireless, theoretically, everything should be wireless, including the mic pre's, theoretically, of course. If I use the school's system again next school year, I will have to keep the DL close and tune the room wirelessly when needed.
Long & McQuade here is already taking pre-orders for the Behringer X18. It might be time to take a long hard look at this one again. They posted a retail price of $999.99 Canadian for it, with a minimum 30 day ship date. It would be nice to play with the software first. I presume the X32 app would fill the bill for learning my way around it until the X18 software app is released.
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The X32 app will not be too useful for X18 workflow. We are talking about a 12 bus mixer vs. a 25 bus one. Significant changes in routing etc. will exist. What little is shown of the X18 screens should give you a hint.
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WK;
That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification. :thu:
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For those of you waiting for the X18 keep in mind that the initial software will be fairly rudimentary. There is no hint of more than a single layer of control, by that I mean no mute groups or DCA's or other fancy linking or routing as in the X32. That may change as competition forces their hand such as the QSC Touchmix or if Mackie finishes groups (DCA). Not unlike their analog mixer series in terms of functionality, just digital. Need more features go for a X32, or go Midas.
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Need more features go for a X32, or go Midas.
.......or an Allen & Heath or a Soundcraft etc........ Might as well mention some of the good guys, "ahem". ;)
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Had to push through parents to get at the mic pre's on the DL quite a few times, even though they were set at optimal, or so I thought.
The main benefit of 24 bits in digital audio is that you really don't have to obsess over your gain structure. Turn them down at the trim, and make up the gain someplace else that you can remotely control, like in the dynamics. When the QSC Touchmix was announced, I was sad they didn't go with recallable head amps. After a few months of mixing shows in a laptop with Focusrite pres onstage, I no longer find it be a concern.
It's the same with multitrack 24 bit recording. I'm perfectly happy to have my channels peaking at -16dB. These systems are so clean and have so much headroom that you can just make it up. There's no reason to ever risk an over.
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I thought you might enjoy this opinion on bit depth. This may also add a twist to the incessant request for digital adjustable preamps as a necessary feature to mix. Most pro's don't mix using preamp adjustments after initial sound check, that's what faders are for.
http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/
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I thought you might enjoy this opinion on bit depth. This may also add a twist to the incessant request for digital adjustable preamps as a necessary feature to mix. Most pro's don't mix using preamp adjustments after initial sound check, that's what faders are for.
http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/
My issue with the analog adjustable pre's is that they get knocked around during setup and tear down. Sometimes you have to adjust the preamps if you don't have enough headroom on the fader, but that should all be pretty close if you've done a good sound check. The reason I would love to have digital is to alleviate the knocked around issue.
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My DL is rack mounted and sits under a lid unless being used. I don't have a trim moving problem. Not even considering the O-ring mod.
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Perhaps it's just me but I for one don't want saved preamps. I always find dependent on the gig that the keyboard player, guitar player (me) or bass player invariably changes their volume during sound check. Saved preamp settings go out the window then.
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Sometimes you have to adjust the preamps if you don't have enough headroom on the fader, but that should all be pretty close if you've done a good sound check. The reason I would love to have digital is to alleviate the knocked around issue.
I find a lot of acts are lazy during sound check and don't play/sing/hit drums as hard as they do when they hit the stage in front of people. I often have to back down trims for vocals, snare drums, even guitar and bass amps because they're hitting the strings harder and sometimes you start clipping inputs. There can be as much as a 10-20dB discrepancy between sound check and the actual performance on some inputs. You just don't know until it's show time. Good thing I use compression so it doesn't kill everyone when those instances pop up ;)
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Let's see a number of thoughts and comments. First a disclaimer I am a bass player first, sound person second. If I haven't said it lately I love the DL. Sure I've looked at the X32 but only because it can be racked up but I haven't gone any further than catalog shopping.
I use the O ring trick and it helps a ton, my gains never move now unless I tell them to :)
As for gain settings, I find I need to run mine a bit hot if you will as the DL doesn't seem to put out as hot a signal to my amps as I'm used to. One time my foh person was at a small gig that we did on our own. I handed him my ipad and asked if he would do the levels for me. After a song he walked over and turned a lot of my gains down and I noticed the fronts dropped terribly as did my IEM. I think he mistook the occasional red line as a note that the gains were to hot.
Anyway just my thoughts and experiences.
All the best to this mixer.
CP
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I handed him my ipad and asked if he would do the levels for me. After a song he walked over and turned a lot of my gains down and I noticed the fronts dropped terribly as did my IEM. I think he mistook the occasional red line as a note that the gains were to hot.
I think that the fact that Mackie chose to use main outputs that max out at +21dBu make the drive level for the amps seem weaker than their other mixers. On their other mixers where they're using active drivers for the hot and cold lines of the balanced outputs, the output levels were inherently 6dB hotter for a given level of input. So if you're comparing to one of those mixers with hotter output, the discrepancy is noticeable. But the aux sends have always been no more than +22dBu since they only use a driver on the hot line on all their mixers. That said, +21dBu should be plenty of drive for most situations. If you're having to drive your preamps to clip to get adequate levels for your IEMs and mains, you probably need to add some more gain after the mixer. The mains amps hopefully have a voltage gain adjustment to increase sensitivity. And I'd imagine the IEM system has a place to add more gain as well.
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Thank you for your reply, I always find your comments very helpful and extremely knowledgeable.
Well before the DL I had a Presonus 16.0.2 and before that would have been Mackie 1604s and A&H Mix Wiz..
I should add that when I mix I run my ears off the headphone output, not the best way to do it but I mostly use it to maintain my perceived impression of vocal balance as well as keys and flute which didn't use a stage amp. But that band is dosolved so I moved on.
I find the aux outs are fine.
Chris
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the DL doesn't seem to put out as hot a signal to my amps as I'm used to.
I started early on running my mains master fader all the way up, instead of at zero, since there wasn't a Mains mute and I wanted a totally repeatable position. Now there is a Mains mute, but that gain structure has held me in good stead. Plenty of output.
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This may be a noob question... I start out running the gains at the 12:00 position for initial set up on the DL and find the mics usually need quite a bit more. Can I safely push the gains up to the 3:00 position in most situations? Why I ask is I have never ever pushed any gains on any mixers past the 1:00 position to avoid distortion/clipping. Or what about "nottooloud's" method of running the Master volume hot?
I guess I could just try various methods if and when I get to run my school's DL again. ;)
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This may be a noob question... I start out running the gains at the 12:00 position for initial set up on the DL and find the mics usually need quite a bit more. Can I safely push the gains up to the 3:00 position in most situations? Why I ask is I have never ever pushed any gains on any mixers past the 1:00 position to avoid distortion/clipping. Or what about "nottooloud's" method of running the Master volume hot?
I guess I could just try various methods if and when I get to run my school's DL again. ;)
You set the gains wherever they need to be to get proper gain structure. Don't get hung up on physical knob positions. Different sources need different amounts of gain. A loud snare or guitar amp will need far less gain than say a vocal mic, which will on average need more gain than most other inputs.
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I thought you might enjoy this opinion on bit depth.
http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/
Oh man. I have a new favorite blog. I thank you, sir, most sincerely.
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Greg C.;
Thank you for that valuable information. I was sort of referring to the DL's gain structure in particular, but as you said, the gain has to be set to match the input, of course. It appears that you can run the DL hotter than some, but always be aware of clipping and distortion. I always rely on my ears and not necessarily, only just the physical mixer settings. :)
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The trim on my wireless mic is usually the whole way down. The one for my piano is usually about the 1 o'clock position. I know there's a lot of available headroom, but don't usually run the system hard at all. Out of force of habit, I run the VU meters at about -40db background noise.
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As Greg stated above don't get hung up on physical knob positions of your gear, you need far more understanding about it's limitations and ranges. One of Rane's classic papers on gain structure is a good explanation of what you need to know about your equipment. Although written for analog equipment most of it holds true for digital as well.
http://www.rane.com/note135.html
Or if you have the tenacity to work your way through the other reference with a lot more detail you'll get the idea.
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/how_do_you_set_system_gain_structure/
None of these however address your first and foremost problem, mic selection and positioning along with the right gain setting, oh yeah training that loose cannon called the talent, at least some. If the mic noise floor is 21 dBSPL, something you'll never hear in the application, and a max of 145 dBSPL, enough to scramble your brains and blow out you eardrums, where do you position the mic in this gain structure (preamp gain)?
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WK154;
Thank you for the references, they will be helpful indeed. Technical info does make a difference in the over all picture. I like to combine the tech with my ears for running sound. They have always helped me avoid the onset of wild feedback, frying rental speakers and my own gear for years.
Of course if the MC decides to walk right in front of a speaker with the mic, even though you've given explicit instructions to avoid that, you can only slam the main volume down, or hit mute with lightning speed to avoid an audience of destroyed eardrums. :facepalm: Loose cannon indeed!!!
Many a time though, my local music store has supposedly tested speakers before renting them to me and once I have them up and running I've heard an intermittent horn speaker cutting in and out. Oh well, I guess it goes with the territory.
And I do appreciate the references once more, they will give me some good reading. Thank you!
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A good eq setting will also help to avoid feedback if a mc walks in front of the main pa
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The end game will always be for ears and most times not your own. Dave Rat of Red Hot Chile Pepper and many other fame mixes with minimal knob twiddling and observes the band and more important the audience's reaction to the sound and mixes to them. A whole other level. If you pay attention in bar and nightclub gigs as you increase your loudness so does your audience since they want to converse. This can literally end up in a shouting match or early departure of audience with less business for the owner. As for the Emcee problem, if you don't know them and you can't confine them to a podium mic then give them the tightest hyper/super cardioid dynamic in your bag. For ten+ years I was spoiled by Chip Esten (Nashville series star) as our emcee who could make a dead mic work for him.
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As for the Emcee problem, if you don't know them and you can't confine them to a podium mic then give them the tightest hyper/super cardioid dynamic in your bag.
That doesn't always work either. Sometimes you get an emcee that won't stay on top of the mic and likes to hold it down nice and low or hold it far away. In those instances, a tight pattern mic can be a liability and you would have been better off with a 58. Too bad a mic technique license isn't required for people that want to speak through a PA.
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Of course if the MC decides to walk right in front of a speaker with the mic, even though you've given explicit instructions to avoid that, you can only slam the main volume down, or hit mute with lightning speed to avoid an audience of destroyed eardrums. :facepalm: Loose cannon indeed!!!
This is a reason to run stereo mains. When I observe a speaker stepping off stage in front of main and there's potential for feedback, I put my fingers on the channel pan for that mic and get ready to pan to the mains channel opposite of the one they're walking in front of. Depending on the venue, mic, and vocalist, you may be fine. Many mics are very stable with loud monitors and the PA is just another monitor - though it's EQ'd differently and may be running at a hotter level.
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As for the Emcee problem, if you don't know them and you can't confine them to a podium mic then give them the tightest hyper/super cardioid dynamic in your bag.
That doesn't always work either. Sometimes you get an emcee that won't stay on top of the mic and likes to hold it down nice and low or hold it far away. In those instances, a tight pattern mic can be a liability and you would have been better off with a 58. Too bad a mic technique license isn't required for people that want to speak through a PA.
I rather like to let themselves look stupid and the embarrassment factor is a good weapon to use against them. No Emcee I know wants to not be heard. Trial by fire my way, I'm not standing up there looking dumb >:D.
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Well, you know how that always goes - no matter who's fault it really is, it's the sound person's fault. You'll still get the blame :o
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Ya got tha lt right Greg. I was doing sound at an event several years ago. I had nothing to do with the band. They were way too loud and I was getting blamed. The event person came and yelled at me to turn it down. I told her I had nothing to do with it. She kept yelling. So I looked at her and said "look at the board, it's off". Yes I turned everything off to prove it had nothing to do with me. Of course there were no vocals anymore. But I had to prove my point. She probably still thought it was my fault.
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Yes, you always get that look, ??? when something glitches, out of your control. Like the MC forgetting to turn the mic back on, even though you had planned to leave it on the whole time and control it with the mute button and many other faux pas that you get dumped on for. Of course we all do make mistakes from time to time :o
For example, just recently attended the Michael Bubble' concert at the Air Canada Centre. Everything went fine until the very last number. Que trumpet solo ( trumpet was fitted with a wireless mic) no sound at all, either the mic died or was not turned on from the board. Or the preprogrammed scene didn't bring up the mic etc. etc. Might have even been a dead battery too. These are top pro's at a higher level than I'll ever be, but stuff happens to everyone and I'm glad I wasn't part of the sound crew for that one too. But I felt bad for them just the same.
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Ya got tha lt right Greg. I was doing sound at an event several years ago. I had nothing to do with the band. They were way too loud and I was getting blamed. The event person came and yelled at me to turn it down. I told her I had nothing to do with it. She kept yelling. So I looked at her and said "look at the board, it's off". Yes I turned everything off to prove it had nothing to do with me. Of course there were no vocals anymore. But I had to prove my point. She probably still thought it was my fault.
I has something similar happen a few years ago with the police. Great band was playing my venue, Howlin' Rain. But they have 3 guitar players turned up to 11, painfully loud. Instead of getting a loudness complaint from the neighborhood for low end, it was guitar. Not even going through the mains at all. So the cops show up during a long guitar solo and I see them coming. I hit the VCA mute for the mains before they even get down to me on the floor. The one in charge starts screaming at me to shut it down. I keep telling him the PA is off. He still screaming at me, getting up in face, spittle and all, threats of jail, etc. I finally scream back, "IT'S OFF, IT'S OFF" and grab all the faders with my arms at once and pull them down to show that it make no difference. He finally got the picture. After the solo was done, I got on the talk back mic and informed the band the show was shut due to police action. When they came back the following year, they turned down noticeably ;) easier to get a better balanced mix.
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Dave Rat of Red Hot Chile Pepper and many other fame mixes with minimal knob twiddling and observes the band and more important the audience's reaction to the sound and mixes to them. A whole other level.
Well, it really is a whole other level with Dave. He has the luxury of mixing the same band night after night with a system tech that handles all the PA fly and tuning at every venue. He doesn't have to do much knob twiddling at all. In fact, the pots on his Heritage 3000 & outboard almost never get touched from venue to venue since he mixes the same band every night in large spaces and there's little need to change things once the system is dialed in. Sometimes I think he might forget it's a little different in club/small venue land mixing bands you've often never mixed before, one right after another. And you're dealing with more stage volume in the mix in smaller rooms. More knob twiddling is often required I find with acts that aren't totally pro and don't have a grasp on volume dynamics during instrument solos and such. I find the more pro a band is in general, the less work it is for me all around ;)
P.S. That's Dave in the red shirt in my avatar
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Few people who don't know Dave would recognize him before the dye job on u-Tube. I missed Coachella this year but leave it to Dav with Google glasses to cover the event. I don't think he mixed any at the event, just played boss and had fun. I agree with you 100% on the more pro the less work aspect.
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In the same vein as hope for the DL, and please forgive me if this has already been discussed/beaten to death...
Have we seen the last of the Master Fader updates currently at v 2.1.1? Or is Mackie taking their time to come up with a fantastic update that will blow everything else out of the water? :lol: Or they really don't care when they come up with the next one, if at all? I know I am probably smoking some funny stuff, if I think the next update is coming anytime soon and going to be revolutionary. Even just a couple of new features?? Right now, Master Fader is pretty good at this version just the same.
Has anyone heard any rumors, even a little tid bit or two? Can't find any info Googling either.
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At this point waiting for iOS 8 to hit the streets would be wise for anyone with an app. Whether a significant update or a minor fix is anyone's guess. They have until the X18 and QSC Touchmix start shipping before any sales impact will be felt. They could get a lot of mileage just fixing bugs, record/playback and adding sub-groups (DCA).
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That would be the smart thing for Mackie to do. I guess it's wise to not hold one's breath waiting. When I was using the school's DL it was quite a pleasant experience and Master Fader at 2.1.1 was adequate and easy to use. Every DL experience should be that good. Oh well.
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Time for a user satisfaction poll methinks.
Km - make it so😉
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Captain Picard I am not ;) I would like to hear (here??) more opinions on this subject, but alas we (significant other and I) are going on a cruise, leaving Saturday our time. Still doing last minute running around (like chickens minus their heads). 8 days Eastern Caribbean. Woo Hoo!!
Maybe when we get back and settled in to the routine. For now, to quote an old Star Trek: " Beam me up Scotty" :P
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Vacation time. I'm departing on a motorcycle trip to Washington state. (And Yellowstone.) Will be checking in with my ipad mini. (Does everything I need while on a trip and takes up the least space.) Might go into Canada. (Got to grab my passport and talk to my insurance agent.)
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Canada Eh? Maybe. Watch out for all the hosers. :P Motorcycle trip sounds excellent! Especially Yellowstone. 8)
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Went to Yellowstone for the first time 4 years ago with my Son and met up with my Brother. This time it's with my Son and his Wife, then going onto Washington to meet up with my Brother. If I come back through Canada, it will be Vancouver to Banff then south to Denver. Really haven't decided. My Wife has a few relatives living in BC that She want's me to meet with. Would be good. (Her Step-Father was from Saskatchewan.)
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Sounds like a great trip Wynn - enjoy!
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I'm taking my ipad mini that I use as a backup DL1608 controller. It will take up the least space and I really only need it for Skype, email and surfing the web on occasion. My Ride is a 1990 Pacific Coast with a Givi trunk on a Givi rack. (My second PC800. First one I ran for 100k miles.)