Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Fluddman on January 19, 2015, 06:32:28 AM
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Had an interesting gig on Saturday using a Shure SLX24 UHF wireless microphone.
While holding a wireless-connected iPad, I couldn't get anywhere near the wireless microphone without master fader chucking a wobbly. At around six feet MF becomes very erratic and slow to respond. Inside six feet the sync with the DL starts dropping out and eventually it won't reconnect.
I move well away from the microphone and try to reconnect MF. No luck. I try quitting MF, deleting it from the iPads memory and relaunching it. It reconnects but is a little erratic but working. Over the next ten minutes it gets worse and becomes un-usable about 10 seconds into the opening song. Lucky for me I had a rough mix dialled in - it would have been exciting if there was a massive burst of feedback.
Out of desperation I shutdown the ipad and reboot it. Not sure how long this took, enough time to think that the next step would be to try rebooting the mixer and router. After seemingly an eternity it reboots before the first song finishes. Fortunately this did the trick and it was back to normal - phew!
My airport express is mounted in the same rack as the DL and the wireless receiver for the microphone. So I guess I'll try separating them and see how it goes but I doubt this is the problem as it works fine as long as I stay away from the wireless microphone itself. I can't sound check that microphone while holding the iPad.
What I don't really understand is why it continued to effect the iPad/MasterFader after I'd moved well away from the microphone. It's like it somehow corrupted the app or wifi connection and only a complete shutdown and reboot gets it to work. After this experience I am really nervous about using this particular wireless microphone.
Any ideas?
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Used a SLX H5 band for over a year with the DL not a single problem as described. What band are you using in Sydney? Possible defective Shure transmitter putting out additional frequency. Moving away would mean about 100ft (30meters) at 30mW of power. Can you try replacing either iPad or Shure mic to narrow down problem? I also used a bunch of EW100 Sennheisers along with the Shure at all shows without problems. One other question is the iPad a WiFi only?
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Thanks WK.
Its operating in the L4 band.
I can't try a different mic (i bought one to try and am planning on getting another three) but I can try a different iPad.
The iPad is both wifi and cellular.
I am just setting it up now at home to see if I can replicate the problem.
Cheers
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Ok - this is really weird.
Just set up at home and its working perfectly. Could it somehow be venue specific??
I hate inconsistent problems :(
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I ran into a venue where my AirPlay didn't work consistently. And if it were a busier place, I would have attributed it to the audience, but there weren't very many people there. Old building, maybe bad wiring? Don't expect to be there again, so I won't worry about it. I also normally have a docked ipad on the mixer and one for remote. Those both worked perfectly the entire gig.
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Ok - this is really weird.
Just set up at home and its working perfectly. Could it somehow be venue specific??
I hate inconsistent problems :(
This is where a frequency analyzer comes in handy. My recommendation for anyone using wireless mics is to get one unless they're already part of the wireless setup (high end products). I suspect that since your iPad is cellular that you had it on (easy to test for) and with a bunch of other phones at the venue plus possible TV and other transmitters in the area you didn't stand a chance. Cell receiver overload can have interesting effects on them say nothing of the iPad software trying to service it, yes they have some protection but it's not unlimited. The frequencies involved may be IMD products which requires software to help you stay clear of problems.
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Is moving up to the 5Mhz band an option? Just a thought.
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Is moving up to the 5Mhz band an option? Just a thought.
Thanks but already using 5Mhz to avoid problems with the digital wireless microphones such as the Line 6 gear.
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Ok - this is really weird.
Just set up at home and its working perfectly. Could it somehow be venue specific??
I hate inconsistent problems :(
This is where a frequency analyzer comes in handy. My recommendation for anyone using wireless mics is to get one unless they're already part of the wireless setup (high end products). I suspect that since your iPad is cellular that you had it on (easy to test for) and with a bunch of other phones at the venue plus possible TV and other transmitters in the area you didn't stand a chance. Cell receiver overload can have interesting effects on them say nothing of the iPad software trying to service it, yes they have some protection but it's not unlimited. The frequencies involved may be IMD products which requires software to help you stay clear of problems.
Thanks WK. So I'll turn the cellular off next time.
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My real concern is for the future as I am considering a DL32R.
As with Wynn I also keep a docked iPad in the DL1608 but that's not possible with the DL32R and either is going for the trim pots. So if it were to happen with the DL32R it would be a a real show stopper!
If its a cell problem I don't understand why the UHF microphone set it off.
Cheers to all
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What frequency is the SLX running on? I realize it's in the UHF band. I'm curious as to it's transmitting freq, being close to the Ipad's recieving and it overloading it?
Edit:
OOPS... Missed the part of your getting it set up at home and it working. Sorry
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My real concern is for the future as I am considering a DL32R.
As with Wynn I also keep a docked iPad in the DL1608 but that's not possible with the DL32R and either is going for the trim pots. So if it were to happen with the DL32R it would be a a real show stopper!
If its a cell problem I don't understand why the UHF microphone set it off.
Cheers to all
In the US what used to be TV and Mic frequencies are now cell phone territory. Soon 500mHz to 600Mhz will be the only remaining frequency band. I don't know the situation in Aussie land, probably similar. :o Smog and cloud layers can also ruin your day. I did some work with Shure on their Wireless Workbench V5.0 and an outfit in Melbourne a while back on an analyzer. Don't recommend them. Signal Hound is my current unit. The FCC may have to wake up and set aside a band just for Wireless Audio like EU.
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I tried again today and couldn't get it to play up - bugger!
I guess when (if) it happens again I'll just switch to another iPad straight away.
If its somehow related to the cellular network I guess rebooting the iPad somehow fixes the problem. I know every now again I need to reboot my iPhone because its loses its cell connection.
I'll keep cellular turned off at gigs.
Cheers
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More problems at a gig yesterday, though not as severe as the previous week.
Everything is working ok until I start to sound check the wireless mic. Talking in to the mic while holding the iPad causes MF to freeze, moving away from the microphone makes it returns to normal.
I had cellular turned off on the iPad and (by accident) I had the wireless receiver for the microphone also turned off.
So it does appear that the wireless microphone's transmitter is interfering with my wifi connection when I get within arms reach of it. I didn't have time for problem solving but had zero issues for the rest of the day (as I avoided going near the wireless microphone).
Odd, that I had no problem when I tested at home - the only significant difference I can think of is that at the gig I would have been a little further away from the airpot express.
I guess of some note, this gig was a private function in the backyard of a fairly well to-do leafy residential area. So probably nothing much else to cause a problem other than my own equipment.
Cheers
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Your mic seems to be the source of your problems, as suggested you should get it's rf output analysed.
Over the summer I ran seven radio mics and wireless iems on two different bands and never had a glitch with the iPad. I was using frequencies in the 606mhz and 860mhz bands. I wouldn't have thought anything other than digital mics on 2.4ghz would have messed with an iPad. Is this problem just a recent development or has it always been like this?
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If you're not using Bluetooth shut it off so it doesn't try to find other devices. This could slow it down to were it may look like it froze up.
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Your mic seems to be the source of your problems, as suggested you should get it's rf output analysed.
Over the summer I ran seven radio mics and wireless iems on two different bands and never had a glitch with the iPad. I was using frequencies in the 606mhz and 860mhz bands. I wouldn't have thought anything other than digital mics on 2.4ghz would have messed with an iPad. Is this problem just a recent development or has it always been like this?
Hi Robbocurry
The SLX system is fairly new - I bought one to try it out and want to get another 3 but obviously that might not be going to happen unless I can solve this little problem. I am not sure how to get its rf output analysed but I'll start by talking with the local agent. I should add that the microphone itself works exceptionally well.
I do lots of work with multiple line 6 mics. No problem whatsoever as long as I use a 5gHz wireless router (first gig I only had a 2.4 and that was a problem). The irony is I went for the UHF over the digital because I was told they had better range, weren't as fussy about line of sight, and worked better with multiple mic setups (which is where I want to be).
If there was a problem with the microphone I should be able to replicate it at home - I'll keep trying! I'll feel much better knowing I can demonstrate the problem if necessary.
Thanks
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If you're not using Bluetooth shut it off so it doesn't try to find other devices. This could slow it down to were it may look like it froze up.
Yeah I definitely had Bluetooth on. I'll shut it down next time.
Ta!
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I thought I'd provide an update on the wireless issue I am still having. I finally had the time to do a bit of experimenting at a gig last night and had an interesting result.
The issue i have is that my iPad Air doesn't like being with 6 feet of my Shure wireless microphone. Outside of 6 feet it works perfectly - though its really on a pain when I sound check the wireless mic.
Last night I used a garden variety iPad 2 (non cellular) and it worked perfectly while the Ipad Air and master fader froze anytime i got close to the microphone. The guys in the band were using older iPads too and they had not problem either.
I had cellular and bluetooth off on the Air but it made no difference.
Seems like the Air is more effected by the rf from the microphone than is the Ipad 2.
I guess the next step is to try another air and if see if that works, If so I might take mine back to apple for a replacement.
Fingers crossed.
Cheers
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This is doing my head in.
I realised that my daughter has an iPad air. So I set up at home to do some testing.
Unfortunately I couldn't replicate the problem at home (this didn't totally surprise me as I had tried to replicate at home before and it worked fine).
I do sound at a lot of different venues and the problem happens at pretty much all of them - but its working fine at home :o
Obviously I am not doing a full set up at home so maybe other equipment is affecting the situation.
Weird!
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Time to include all the gig equipment in your test. There may be an amplifier or other piece of kit generating RF when your near it and the mic and iPad. 6 Ft covers a lot of ground. Isolate the mic and iPad from the rest(50 ft.) to narrow things down first.
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Yep, there's got a be something it doesn't like.
But, the wireless is usually the centre mic well away from most amps etc. and it happens with different bands, different venues and different setups.
The only constant is my PA gear - which I'll try and eliminate at the next gig.
At least I know I can use the old iPad 2 as a work around.
Cheers
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Ok, so here's another installment in my ongoing saga. I am tracking down the problem slowly.
For those that missed all the history, I can't go anywhere near my Shure wireless microphone without MF freezing and loosing sync on an ipad air.
I've just discovered that its not a problem with older ipads (tried several).
So I guess the next step is to try some other ipad airs to determine whether its a unique problem with my ipad air or whether its a problem with ipad air in general.
I assume that the older ipads are better at rejecting rf interference. I guess this kind of makes sense as they are bigger, fatter and heavier.
Will post back when I can test with another ipad air.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers
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Ok, so here's another installment in my ongoing saga. I am tracking down the problem slowly.
For those that missed all the history, I can't go anywhere near my Shure wireless microphone without MF freezing and loosing sync on an ipad air.
I've just discovered that its not a problem with older ipads (tried several).
So I guess the next step is to try some other ipad airs to determine whether its a unique problem with my ipad air or whether its a problem with ipad air in general.
I assume that the older ipads are better at rejecting rf interference. I guess this kind of makes sense as they are bigger, fatter and heavier.
Will post back when I can test with another ipad air.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers
I don't know if this is relevant to your problem, but I seem to remember checking the specs on the new iPad Air and they all have dual wireless antennas with MIMO (multiple in multiple out) tech. The older iPads have only 1 antenna. Could the dual antennas be contributing to the wireless mic issues you are experiencing?
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Yeah could be KM. I'd much rather there was a fault with my ipad air, but I suspect it may be a general issue.
The odd thing is it works fine at home but not at any of the venues I do sound at. At home I can actually sit the micrphone on the ipad and MF still happilly works. But at a gig (even without any of my PA gear turned on) it just won't work. There must be more wireless stuff happening at the venues that at home.
I think I can access another ipad air to try at tonight's gig.
Cheers
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Is moving up to the 5Mhz band an option? Just a thought.
I use a line 6 wireless pack for my bass so I can soundcheck the band from the dance floor. I found it would wreak havoc on master fader if I was close to the iPad at all. I've been operating on 5Ghz for the last few months now and it completely eliminated the problem.
BTW, I found I had to turn off 2.4Ghz on the router completely and transmit/receive only on 5Ghz for this to work properly. Just remember that anything before iPhone 5 or iPad 4th gen isn't capable of 5Ghz Wifi.
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Is moving up to the 5Mhz band an option? Just a thought.
I use a line 6 wireless pack for my bass so I can soundcheck the band from the dance floor. I found it would wreak havoc on master fader if I was close to the iPad at all. I've been operating on 5Ghz for the last few months now and it completely eliminated the problem.
BTW, I found I had to turn off 2.4Ghz on the router completely and transmit/receive only on 5Ghz for this to work properly. Just remember that anything before iPhone 5 or iPad 4th gen isn't capable of 5Ghz Wifi.
Thanks Dan,
I've already been on that journey. I am only using 5Ghz.
thanks and cheers
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My bad, I missed that info. :facepalm: Hopefully you can find a solution.
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Just remember that anything before iPhone 5 or iPad 4th gen isn't capable of 5Ghz Wifi.
Not true, my iPad 2's work just fine on 5GHz and I'm pretty sure the iPad 1 does also.
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Is moving up to the 5Mhz band an option? Just a thought.
I use a line 6 wireless pack for my bass so I can soundcheck the band from the dance floor. I found it would wreak havoc on master fader if I was close to the iPad at all. I've been operating on 5Ghz for the last few months now and it completely eliminated the problem.
BTW, I found I had to turn off 2.4Ghz on the router completely and transmit/receive only on 5Ghz for this to work properly. Just remember that anything before iPhone 5 or iPad 4th gen isn't capable of 5Ghz Wifi.
Please Dan check your facts before making categorical (wrong) statements, it's not helpful.
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Sorry for the major slip up regarding wifi on old iPads. It won't ever happen again. You should now go back through every post I've ever made on this forum to recheck for such accidents before mixing your next show just to be safe.
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Sorry Dan I guess I got out the wrong side of bed this morning...
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No worries. i only try to help out when I can and try to keep my info as accurate as possible though the odd time my brain produces and error lol.
Have a good day :)
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Another way to force your ipad to 5 Ghz without disabling 2.4 Ghz on the WiFi is passwords. (I use passphrases, longer and still easy to remember.) On my airport express, I've setup NoInternetHere and NoInternetHere 5Ghz. for devices that can do the high frequency, I only log them onto the high one. They never get the password for the lower frequency and therefore never look for it. And you can "forget" any WiFi you don't want it to connect to. (Think that's easier on a MacBook.)
Dan will be happy he got the iphones right. I've got a 4S and 5 Ghz isn't an option for it. (Primary reason I keep the 2.4 ghz option available.)
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in my router (dlink AC1200) I was able to log into the setup with my MacBook and turn off the 2.4ghz radio all together. I found I was having issues between master fader and wireless pack with 2.4ghz turned on even though no devices were connected to it.
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Ok so last night I was able to use another iPad air. It was slightly better than my usual one but no where near as good as the older ipads.
So can only conclude that iPad air doesn't reject RF as well as iPad 2 does.
I will go to Apple with this problem but I am not expecting a great response.
It will be a PIA to have to keep using the old iPads - the weight is significant when you hold one for three or four hours.
Cheers
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Ok so last night I was able to use another iPad air. It was slightly better than my usual one but no where near as good as the older ipads.
So can only conclude that iPad air doesn't reject RF as well as iPad 2 does.
I will go to Apple with this problem but I am not expecting a great response.
It will be a PIA to have to keep using the old iPads - the weight is significant when you hold one for three or four hours.
Cheers
This doesn't make much sense if you can use the same iPad without issues at home. Sorry to say but you have another problem.Maybe one of your band mates is bringing it to the table (phone or other electronic gadget).
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Yeah it doesn't make a lot sense.
All I can think of is that I must have very little rf noise around my place compared to venues.
For the last couple of weeks I have been testing before I power any of the pa or lights up. So it's not my gear causing the problem.
If there was another problem why would the older iPads work just fine?
Cheers
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Time for a spectrum analyzer. Software such as https://www.acrylicwifi.com/en/wlan-software/wlan-scanner-acrylic-wifi-free/
for a PC or something equivalent for Mac. Unfortunately iPad locks out such tools. Android has them as well.