Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: robbocurry on April 17, 2013, 09:13:09 AM
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I'm pondering the upcoming releases from Behringer but can't stop previous bad experiences with the brand clouding my judgment.
The DL1608 is the first piece of Mackie gear I've owned or even used. It's working fine and looks well built. So far so good. ;)
I have owned some brands that were partners (I believe) with Mackie and shared parts & development - RCF & DB Technologies.
DB Technologies is another brand I won't be rushing out to buy again. Their service department in the UK leaves a lot to be desired in my experience.
Prior to my DL purchase, I was aware of the Mackie brand and knew plenty of people who bought and used it. Reliability was never a topic of discussion.
On the other hand, I've owned quite a few Behringer units over the years due to a very local supplier and low pricing.
When the Behringer kit worked it was great, when it failed it was junk.
Behringer service (in my experience, in the UK) was very poor. Resale value of working units was poor too.
Don't get me wrong, not all of it went wrong but a significant enough amount for me to insist on testing every new purchase before I left the store.
Subsequently the local supplier stopped stocking Behringer because of the amount of returns and the poor service, he didn't want all the hassle for what was a small profit margin.
Now that Behringer own Midas they may well be a different proposition.
The purchase of an iX16, X32 or X32 rack would be a significant chunk of cash here in the UK, I don't know if I could take the risk.
Maybe if they offered a three or five year swap out warranty I might be tempted, perhaps they do already, I don't know?
Any piece of equipment as important as a mixer can never afford to go wrong IMHO. The consequences are obvious.
So the question is: Which product would you be more confident in, Mackie or Behringer?
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I have had a huge amount of success with Behringer products, however, I did purchase a XENYX XL2400 when they first came out and it didn't last a year before it started falling apart. It totally sucked (to use restraint and put it mildly).
I have and have owned several Behringer mixers and rack effects over the years and they have been workhorses. I have a small 4 channel Behringer mixer in an all metal case that was one of the first to come out (before the plastic sides). That mixer has been dropped, stepped on, thrown in a trunk, stored in a damp storage unit, lived under the car seat, had beer spilled on it and has generally been through hell. Still working for over 10 years.
I currently use 2 - ADA8000 in my home studio. I am also using Behringer powered speakers, 1 - B205D, 2 - B812NEO, 2 - B1800D, and 2 - F1320D with my DL and these powered speakers work week after week with no signs of letting up. HOWEVER, like Mackie, Behringer advertised products well over a year ago like the FCA1616 and the upgrade to the ADA8000, the ADA8200. Behringer keeps promising "next quarter" for the relaease. FCA1616 was introduced at NAMM 2012.
Generally I give Behringer high marks for their "bang for the buck" and durability. Every company delivers a clam once in a while. Unfortunately, I have not owned enough Mackie product to draw a useful comparison. I am very happy with my DL so far. I am just very anxious at this point for it's full potential to be realized. This unit has everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack but it seems as if Mackie is holding it back for some reason.
The iPad offers so much flexibility that Mackie is not taking advantage of like 3rd party plugins (in-store purchase). Hopefully the next release of Master Fader will shed a new ray of hope. This new My Fader is nothing more than a demo or proof of design for me. Just another example of something that could have been so much more. Especially with all the time it has taken them of get it into our hands.
Sorry for venting, it's just that the anticipation and disappointments are starting to wear on me.
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I have owned some brands that were partners (I believe) with Mackie and shared parts & development - RCF & DB Technologies.
The early Mackie speakers were made (and mostly designed) by RCF in Italy and where top notch. Mackie then had Chinese copies made and sold those, not-so-good :( . That happened after Greg Mackie sold the company in 2003 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark_Mackie
Uli Behringer still owns Behringer. Before Behringer's acquisition of Midas I'd have rated both companies about equal. Behringer does seem to be making a push to up their game as of late:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer
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Hey Lee,
Thanks for the reply, all venting welcome!
I've only really owned Behringer outboard gear and a few mixers, never tried their speakers or amps.
Maybe if I purchased multiple quantities of other manufacturers I'd have the same reservations about reliability with them too.
I'm sure I must have bought at least 20 of their products over the years. If you buy enough, maybe a lemon is inevitable?
I liked Behringer enough to buy "20" units even though I suspected their reliability, because they were cheap individually.
The thought of spending £1K or £2K on one single Behringer unit would have given me a cold sweat previously.
Maybe they have changed?
You're spot on regarding the DL and it's (currently) stifled use of the iPad interface.
It's good, but I can only hope for more features to come.
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I have owned some brands that were partners (I believe) with Mackie and shared parts & development - RCF & DB Technologies.
The early Mackie speakers were made (and mostly designed) by RCF in Italy and where top notch. Mackie then had Chinese copies made and sold those, not-so-good :( . That happened after Greg Mackie sold the company in 2003 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark_Mackie
Uli Behringer still owns Behringer. Before Behringer's acquisition of Midas I'd have rated both companies about equal. Behringer does seem to be making a push to up their game as of late:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer
Ta for the info RR ;)
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I am very happy with my DL so far. I am just very anxious at this point for it's full potential to be realized. This unit has everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack but it seems as if Mackie is holding it back for some reason.
The iPad offers so much flexibility that Mackie is not taking advantage of like 3rd party plugins (in-store purchase). Hopefully the next release of Master Fader will shed a new ray of hope. This new My Fader is nothing more than a demo or proof of design for me. Just another example of something that could have been so much more. Especially with all the time it has taken them of get it into our hands.
Lee, seriously what are you thinking? How in the world does this unit have "everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack". Have you not realized that the issue is not iPad based, it is hardware based. There is such a lack of hardware in the dl that mackie will never be able to make up for. They are/were only ahead of the pack for a short while. In my opinion they are right now. This is only because there is nothing out that is comparable. But that is going to end rather quickly. Do you really need me to say what is missing? And what will never be? And what all the competition will be releasing that the dl will never be able to do?
In regards to plug ins this will probably never happen. The processing power of the dl is in the hardware. It has a limited amount of space. The plug in would have to be loaded to the dl through the iPad, but not processed in the iPad itself. Yes there is a way to use the iPad to process some things. But with a 2 in 2 out interface this is extremely limited. Remember that only the master or L/R channels are being passed through. This will never change because it is hardware based. If the plug in is in the iPad then all channels will be processed by the plug in. Or left right channels. And then they are all returned to 2 channels.
The iPad is only a control surface. Therefore things like linking channels, subgroups, mute groups, eq resets, etc should all be possible. All this is control based. The master fader app can be redesigned to do all this. But when it comes to plug ins the hardware (non control based) needs to take over, and it cannot.
The unit is missing so many things that it will never have. Here are just a few: no USB connection, no programmable preamps, limited processing power, no midi I/O, limited 2x2 iPad only interface, no channel expandability, 2 effects processors, etc.
So I ask again, how does this unit have everything in needs to be way ahead of the pack?
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Jerry, in true "Jerry" fashion, points out everything that this board was never intended to do. Time will tell if a competitor delivers a board that sounds as good as the DL does, in the same small package, at the same price point, and includes all these "nice to haves" that you list.
1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from.
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics.
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case.
4. I don't need midi in my mixer.
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time.
Jerry, you have bashed the DL from the beginning, even before it was released. I can't believe you have followed us here to continue your rant. What seems to be the problem? Is there no Behringer forum for you to blather on?
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Lee currently I love the dl. I am not bashing it. I am pointing out the obvious. And the obvious flaws in your post. How is that bashing? Please explain this too. Or maybe you can't. Just like you can't defend your prior statements. I sold my presonus for the dl and the dl blows it away (in my opinion) for my needs. Does that mean I bashed presonus?
I will add again that I have been and currently am one of the biggest defenders of the dl1608. Once I called it a pos board. I corrected myself saying that I was referring to the company not the board.
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Jerry, in true "Jerry" fashion, points out everything that this board was never intended to do. Time will tell if a competitor delivers a board that sounds as good as the DL does, in the same small package, at the same price point, and includes all these "nice to haves" that you list.
1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from.
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics.
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case.
4. I don't need midi in my mixer.
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time.
Jerry, you have bashed the DL from the beginning, even before it was released. I can't believe you have followed us here to continue your rant. What seems to be the problem? Is there no Behringer forum for you to blather on?
1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from. (CAN BE DONE)
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics. (MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE)
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
4. I don't need midi in my mixer. (YOU MAY NOT NEED IT, BUT AGAIN NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
Geez you make this easy. Want to try again?
You act like just because you don't need or want it that no one else does. This clearly does not make the mackie have everything it need to be ahead of the pack. Your own list shows that.
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I have owned or worked with a number of pieces of Mackie and Berhinger gear (Mackie :- 3 x 1202, 1604, and, of course DL1608... Berry :- Eurodesk 8000, loads of gates, compressors and power amps) only failure was one Berry Europower 2400. We've had a worse failure rate with Crown XTi's, between me and the Hire company we own 4, 100% failure rate (and, despite it being a known issue 3 out of the four were expensive chargeable repairs). Also the Crown power amps in our PRX512M's have been troublesome. Just goes to show that reputation can be misleading, I'd have considered Crown way more reliable than Mackie/Berry 5 years ago.
Regarding the DL1608/ahead of the pack.. It is ahead of the pack right now, it must be 'cos their ain't anything else like it available. It won't be ahead of the pack any more when the iX16 comes out, than honour will then pass to the iX16, and from there to whatever follows. It's the way technology works. The DL is not perfect but, if the DL is what you want then it's the only game in town.......
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I have owned or worked with a number of pieces of Mackie and Berhinger gear (Mackie :- 3 x 1202, 1604, and, of course DL1608... Berry :- Eurodesk 8000, loads of gates, compressors and power amps) only failure was one Berry Europower 2400. We've had a worse failure rate with Crown XTi's, between me and the Hire company we own 4, 100% failure rate (and, despite it being a known issue 3 out of the four were expensive chargeable repairs). Also the Crown power amps in our PRX512M's have been troublesome. Just goes to show that reputation can be misleading, I'd have considered Crown way more reliable than Mackie/Berry 5 years ago.
Regarding the DL1608/ahead of the pack.. It is ahead of the pack right now, it must be 'cos their ain't anything else like it available. It won't be ahead of the pack any more when the iX16 comes out, than honour will then pass to the iX16, and from there to whatever follows. It's the way technology works. The DL is not perfect but, if the DL is what you want then it's the only game in town.......
Heard that about the XTi's, the early iTechs gave bother too. I steered clear of them.
I've never owned a VZ but had ten K2's over the years. I never had a single K2 fail me. (apart from blow an occasional fuse when the big torodial gets loose)
Anything can breakdown I suppose. It's how often and how quickly a repair can be made that forms perceptions.
I'll always have a wee place for a spare K2, it's one of my "saved searches" on eBay. ;)
PS. Sam - Your Europower amps, is there good poke out of them? I always see them on Gumtree and eBay, usually pretty cheap, handy cheap spare....?
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We've moved the Europowers on as they don't appear on many tech riders but they did the business for us for two or three years while we gradually replaced them with more rider friendly kit (iTech 8000's in fact, which have been trouble free so far). I suspect the XTi issues (and the older iTech's) probably related to a bad batch of components from the suppliers as they've all been reliable since being repaired. The Europower that failed almost totally fried a PCB, the tech suspects a total short under full load combined with a slightly dodgy semiconductor somewhere, Berhinger must use lower grade components than more expensive gear to keep prices low.
I'd have no particular worries about buying a Europower or two if I needed some more power amps.
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Jerry, in true "Jerry" fashion, points out everything that this board was never intended to do. Time will tell if a competitor delivers a board that sounds as good as the DL does, in the same small package, at the same price point, and includes all these "nice to haves" that you list.
1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from.
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics.
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case.
4. I don't need midi in my mixer.
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time.
Jerry, you have bashed the DL from the beginning, even before it was released. I can't believe you have followed us here to continue your rant. What seems to be the problem? Is there no Behringer forum for you to blather on?
1. I will agree that channel linking is a big request from. (CAN BE DONE)
2. I also need to have AUX sends be pre dynamics. (MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE)
3. I would have liked my DL to serve dual purpose and act as a recording interface but not a game changer in my case. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
4. I don't need midi in my mixer. (YOU MAY NOT NEED IT, BUT AGAIN NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
6. One of the biggest things for me that is missing from this mixer is channel inserts, but I bought the DL knowing that ahead of time. (NOT AHEAD OF THE PACK)
Geez you make this easy. Want to try again?
You act like just because you don't need or want it that no one else does. This clearly does not make the mackie have everything it need to be ahead of the pack. Your own list shows that.
My point is that there is NOTHING out there for $900 that has all these things you whine about.
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We've moved the Europowers on as they don't appear on many tech riders but they did the business for us for two or three years while we gradually replaced them with more rider friendly kit (iTech 8000's in fact, which have been trouble free so far). I suspect the XTi issues (and the older iTech's) probably related to a bad batch of components from the suppliers as they've all been reliable since being repaired. The Europower that failed almost totally fried a PCB, the tech suspects a total short under full load combined with a slightly dodgy semiconductor somewhere, Berhinger must use lower grade components than more expensive gear to keep prices low.
I'd have no particular worries about buying a Europower or two if I needed some more power amps.
Thanks, good to know! ;)
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My pleasure.
+1 Lee, there's nothing out there which does precisely what the DL does. If you want what the DL1608 does you buy it, if you want more you pay more......
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Lee, sorry but that is not what you said. Here is what you said "This unit has everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack". Clearly it does not. If you said that the dl is currently the head of the pack because they are the only one in the pack. Then yes you would be correct. I clearly stated this in my reply to you. But this is not what you said. In 1 million percent truth this statement would be much better: " This unit DOES NOT have everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack". A much easier statement to defend.
We all know that new direct competition will be coming out. And the DLs hardware will have Mackie wishing that "This unit has everything it needs to be way ahead of the pack", but sadly it doesn't.
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It IS currently WAY ahead of the pack considering that NOTHING else touches it.
Any product being speculated as a competitor is merely vaporware until it is physically in a users hands.
When Behringer releases their iPad model, when?? based on the FCA1616 maybe 2014, we can revisit this discussion.
Until then, I will be a happy customer.
I will also add that when the Behringer product comes out, and if it gets good reviews, and Mackie isn't still thrilling, I will probably be tempted to change.... Seriously doubting that will happen this year though.
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Lee you honest feeling were proven to be wrong. Just admit you were wrong and move on. I know that is hard for you to admit. People here hate being proved wrong even when the facts are presented to them. This is a world of ignorance.
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You have only proven that there is vaporware that claims that it will be better when it is released. That's all.
Today's facts and today's standards are the only true facts.
(http://www.discount-florida-vacations.com/images/beachwedding.jpg)
I have some great beachfront property to sell you Wyoming.
Look, here is a picture.
Each palm tree has midi in, out and through.
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5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
I think in practice this would be a nightmare to implement after-the-fact.....
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5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
I think in practice this would be a nightmare to implement after-the-fact.....
Quite possibly could be. I'm no programmer. Perhaps it would expose code that Mackie doesn't want to share. It's a wish, not a game changer. I can live with the current delay and reverb for the shows I do. If I need a better verb, I have a few outboard gadgets I could use if I was inspired to lug an additional rack.
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Lee, your statement said "needs to be". This is referring to the future. You talk about 1.5, again the future. But I guess you have no clue what you actually stated. Geez. Please I ask again defend the original statement you made. Or just say you were wrong and what you actually meant to say is....fill in the blank.
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Any more "war" stories out there regarding these two brands anyone?
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I have a lot of good stories about behringer. Only a couple, kind of, bad stories that turned out great. I have been blown away with their exceptional customer service.
Ill try to make this quick.
I have owned several of their products. I had an analogue mixing board bought in the mid 90s. My first board ever. It's the one that looked like the old mackies but blue. Behringer was sued by Mackie back then. Their boards were the same grey as the mackies and looked super similar. Behringer lost the case. All they did was change the color of the board. I don't know what kind of money they lost. Once at a gig in 2003 a glass of water vibrated off a shelf that was just over my pa rack. Right into the board! The night was over. I thought the board was done for. I let it dry out and only lost one of the xlr inputs. Channel 4. The 1/4 on that channel still worked. I stopped using the rack not too much later because I bought a powered mixer, a behringer pmp 2000. The board is still working to this day. I gave it to a bar where I was playing because they had a peavy that crapped out. It's been there since 2007. It's in a smokey bar that has live music just about every night and bartenders that run their mp3s through it. Used to be a CD player but those are so last decade. Still working great.
I forgot to mention that when the water spilled on the board I thought it was done for, so I bought a Mackie cr1604 because i didnt know it would come back to life. It was very shortly after that I went to the powered board. Inside my rack, along with other stuff, was a behringer dual tube pre and a ultracurve. They were the ones that had the cool vintage look. Ended up in my studio.
The pmp 2000 went into use mid 2003. It was awesome. No more pulling around a huge rack. I used this for many years and one day, because of GAS, I bought a behringer pmp980s. It was the newer version. I think this was in 2008ish. The pmp 2000 went into my garage. Still working great. 1 week after the year warranty was over the 980 started sparking up at a gig. Literally sparking. Night over, kind of. What sucked was it was a first night at a new gig. While I scrambled to figure how to play (had a powered sub with external out to power tops) I sent my keyboardist to my house to grab the pmp2000. I started calling her old faithful. She saved the night. I sold her when I went to an all powered set up.
I called behringer and even though I was out of warranty they sent me to a repair guy. He said the parts were unobtainable. So I called behringer back. They ended up sending me a pmp4000 to replace it free of charge. And the pmp4000 was a more expensive board. Much better features. Now that was good customer service.
Due to GAS I ended up purchasing many different PA systems and eventually wanted qsc powered speakers and a presonus. So just after getting the pmp4000 I sold it as practically new. I only had it for a month or 2 before going with presonus. But point is what great service.
A couple of years ago I also sold everything in my rack including the tube pre and ultracurve. Both working great.
I also have a couple b210d powered speakers I use for monitors. One day I was sliding one out of my car and it got caught on something. It wasn't too old. I yanked it and snapped off the volume control. Totally my fault. I actually called behringer and told them that it fell off at a gig (yes I lied) and guess what. They sent me a brand new one. I have 2 and both work great.
I bought a bugera amp after selling off my Mesa and my classic 30. I barely, almost never, play electric but have high end guitars so I thought I need to have an amp. I wanted a cheap tube amp and stumbled upon bugera. This was 2009/2010. The amp sat for almost a year and I decided it was time to let it go. I sold it to a friend. He actually put it to use. He called me and told me about an issue that the channels would change on their own. I did some research and found that behringer put out a statement that the amps manufactured in 2009 did have a factory defect. I called behringer and they sent me to a repair facility in Miami. About 65 mile drive. This was not fun. The amp sat and sat. The shop was waiting on the part which behringer could not find. Lots of back and fourth calls. My friend kept asking when I would get him the amp back. He was very patient. The shop that had it said they were just going to find the part on their own and ask behringer to pay for it. Behringer also said they located the part but apparently never shipped it. There was a ton of back and fourth and waiting. This went on for almost 2 months. So eventually what did behringer do? They sent me a brand new one. Made my friend happy because now the almost 1 year old amp was new in the box. And a big bonus happened. I thought this was all over, but the shop in Miami called a couple weeks later and said that the part they ordered came in and my amp was fixed. Apparently they did not get any notice from behringer about the new amp. So I went down and picked it up and sold it a week later. BONUS! I actually made a lot more than I paid to begin with. I sold 2 amps.
Another note. Every time I spoke to behringer they were extremely nice and helpful. They said "don't worry, we are here to help you". They did nothing but go above and beyond anything I ever expected.
The couple of issues I had are minor compared to the great experiences I had.
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5. The current Delay and Reverb are nothing more than plugins. We may be limited to 2 at a time, but we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from.
I think in practice this would be a nightmare to implement after-the-fact.....
Quite possibly could be. I'm no programmer. Perhaps it would expose code that Mackie doesn't want to share. It's a wish, not a game changer. I can live with the current delay and reverb for the shows I do. If I need a better verb, I have a few outboard gadgets I could use if I was inspired to lug an additional rack.
To clarify, the original quote implied third party plugins: "we certainly should not be limited to which ones we use or where they came from".
If plugins were loaded into the iPad (as per, say, Auria), enabling that capability would require loading the plugin/s into memory on the mixer. Passing audio processing through the iPad is not how the product has been designed, especially when considering use via detached devices (over WiFi). Even if it was possible, think of the byzantine complexities related to preserving/syncing the system state, particularly if other devices dont have the exact same plugins installed. I cant see this working unless Mackie fundamentally changed the design.
If Mackie made an API available for third party plugins (as per, say, FabFilter's excellent plugins for Auria) then maybe things could be different, presuming there's sufficient memory real estate and DSP cycles to store/load/run alternative plugins.
But "extra plugins' should be low in priority on the wish list - there are many more important issues which need improving asap.
Right now, we can use third party processors via the Aux sends (and/or headphone output if you wanna sacrifice the solo function), but with the unfortunate limitation that input channels are consumed by the returns. In this regard, it's a shame the original design excluded channel inserts.
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Good story Jerry,
Breakdowns are a fact of life, it's the after sales service that counts.
Looks like Behringer US are a whole world apart from the Behringer service I'd experienced.
It must be five years since I'd any dealings with them.
Again, good story, ta:)
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I've got a bunch of old Behringer Gates, Compressors, EQ's, etc all still work great, never had an issue with them. Same goes for a bunch of my Mackie mixers.
Realistically I'm pretty much 50/50 on quality. HOWEVER, when it comes to R&D Behringer is just SMOKING Mackie! I'm seeing X32's everywhere, on national TV shows, Churches, Theatre's etc. I have heard zero complaints about the mixer. However, I hear nothing but complaints about the DL1608. I really like the concept and think it's a decent mixer but when I saw iX16 and knowing about how the X32 is performing I about threw up in my mouth... just makes me sick to my stomach because I should have waited before buying my DL1608 to see what else might come on to the market!
And yes it's technically vaporware at this point but if I put odds on Behringer releasing the iX16 vs Mackie producing some meaningful updates to the DL1608 I would completely bet on Behringer at this point!
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I've only used Mackie mixers and have never had a failure. Though, I did notice a big improvement in the noise floor and overall sound quality when going from an SR24-4 to a Tascam DM24, at our church. The Mackie was much "darker".
I have used lots of Behringer and have personally experienced a few failures. Once, I had a Composer Pro in front of an amp for peak limiting and when I powered up the amp rack at a show, the speakers were JAMMING some real nasty sound and I about sh_t me drawers. (yes the amp inputs were up) Well, figured out that the levels were maxed on one of the limiter channels, from internal demons >:D. That was one of a few, not so fun experiences. And, I've had friends have similar happenings.
Burn me once, ok, burn me again and again, ok, I get it.
I do still use some Beh gear (mdx4600's for channel compression and deq2496 for delay/rta), but I won't be buying more, at least anytime soon.
I am falling into that line of thinking now with Mackie, too. The shortcomings of the DL, hard and softwares, will probably erase it from the market. Getting fixes for the poor design has really been hard to swallow.
But, until it's replaced...
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The early Mackie speakers were made (and mostly designed) by RCF in Italy and where top notch. Mackie then had Chinese copies made and sold those, not-so-good :( . That happened after Greg Mackie sold the company in 2003 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark_Mackie
Yep, I'll hold on to my old Mackie C300's until I die, they're invincible
I've been a fan of Mackie for years, especially the Onyx mixers.
Behringer I've had great luck with their rack mount gear & amps, but just about every one of their mixers I've laid hands on has some issue you "just have to work around" - having said that I'm very intrigued by their new digital lineup & the Midas connection. A friend is considering the X32 so I did some research & was very impressed with the design & functionality of the thing.
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To answer the question in the title, at least for me, neither brand truly inspires confidence. I've had enough field failures by both companies to warrant a "poor reliability" rating over the years. And add in lack of good support when there are problems to compound my distrust. There have been some solid performers though by both companies too though. For instance, I have Mackie SRM450s (the original RCF version) that haven't had any problems in over 10 years even after much abuse. And I've had some Behringer items that have lasted nearly as long. Given what's going on today, I'd have to say Behringer wins for now, as much as I loath to say that.
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I have 4 mixers, 15 rack gear of pre/eq's, FB destroyers etc., 6 mics and speakers and all but 1 ec8000 ever had a problem. It was immediately replaced by Behringer. 1 Mackie and depending on your definition of problems I would give the vote to Behringer hands down.
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I have 4 mixers, 15 rack gear of pre/eq's, FB destroyers etc., 6 mics and speakers and all but 1 ec8000 ever had a problem. It was immediately replaced by Behringer. 1 Mackie and depending on your definition of problems I would give the vote to Behringer hands down.
WK154, prior to owning a Mackie, I've only owned Behringer equipment and never had issues. I still have my XL3200 board and it never gave me problems. I'm not a big fan of their powered speakers. I just sold two of my B212D (still have 1). I use the B212D and 2 F1320D's for monitors. I still own the DEQ2496, DCX2496, 2-MDX4600's and FBQ3102 and although they now sit on my shelf in the garage, they have never had any issues. I'm just not into lugging all that equipment around anymore. I always get the Pro Coverage from GC on any equipment I buy. I am looking into purchasing the iX16 when it releases (specifically for the multi-track recording capabilities). BTW, all the Behringer equipment I mentioned above is up for sale if anyone is interested (minus the monitors of course). The QSC K12's and K-Sub have been a great investment for me for FOH. I just bought my GF the new Shure digital wireless vocal mic a week ago and it's been great, other than a little interference with the Apple Airport playing tracks or intermission music. I've since switched the Airport to the 5Ghz band And that seems to have helped. Am I rattling on too much here? Sleep is so overrated! :)
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The steamroller keeps on rolling and on time. The X32 compact is available in Europe and will be here shortly in stores. http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion-328.html or the stores Web page http://www.musicstore.de/en_EN/GBP/Behringer-X32-Compact-Digitalmischpult/art-REC0010350-000 . At about $2230 (CCI) it certainly would be a high end contender but pricey per channel ($142) compared to the rest. Remember that per channel cost is running around $84-$87 which makes the Dl1608 and X32 full version more competitive. Expansion capability and features of course go to Behringer. I think I'll wait til the dust settles and all the X32 models are out. Will RR win his bet of V1.5 before iX16?
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Will RR win his bet of V1.5 before iX16?
I don't remember saying that - but in any case those of us that own DL1608's will want to see what V1.5 brings before abandoning ship to the iX16 or other "X" mixer. I'm sure that Mackie understands that new customers will be choosing between them when the iX16 ships so they better be as competitive as possible by then (or shortly thereafter) !
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Your right that was my bet on Behringer but then you stated "I'll predict that Mackie will get the software sorted out by the time the iX16 comes out and most of us won't feel it worthwhile to "crossgrade" to it :) . " V1.5?...V1.6 or never! So lets see whose marketing gurus try to upstage the other. Should prove interesting.
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So lets see whose marketing gurus try to upstage the other. Should prove interesting.
Yep, "There Can Be Only One" LOL. Mackie has the momentum, Behringer has the X32 codebase and some hardware advantages. But I have still not seen any definitive statement that the iX16 can connect to an iPad via the 30 pin or lightning connector. OTOH the Mackie has the "lightning connector" fiasco to work through so it may be moot with new customers. I like the option to go wired if my router goes teats up on me or the spectrum is too crowded at a gig.
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Momentum on the smaller unit maybe but I've yet to see any numbers out of Mackie, 40,000 X32 units to date and limited supply isn't exactly being slow. I hope they never go directly to a 30pin or N connector except thru a USB cable. Apple has little choice but to provide this option for their iPads etc. or they'll loose even more market share.
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RR I have explained this in an earlier post. Maybe you didn't read it. The ix16 is not a dock. It is simply a tray to put the iPad in. The connector is the USB connector. This makes it very easy to plug the iPad directly in. 30 pin or lightning cable or whatever apple changes too.
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RR I have explained this in an earlier post. Maybe you didn't read it. The ix16 is not a dock. It is simply a tray to put the iPad in. The connector is the USB connector. This makes it very easy to plug the iPad directly in. 30 pin or lightning cable or whatever apple changes too.
You can certainly do that to charge the iPad I guess - but AFAIK Behringer has NEVER claimed that you can control the iX16 that way.
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Never really has any issues with Behringer mixers. A buddy of mine is a Behringer distributor and can't even order the S16 Snake because it's on backorder. Behringer is very good at marketing a product WAY before it's released (vaporware). I like the idea of having a USB Type-A connector on top of the unit versus 30-pin or lightning. Makes it way more universal in my book. Behringer has thought ahead on this one for android based tablets. BTW, the USB connector will not be used to charge the iPad (just like when you plug iPad into your PC via USB Type-A, doesn't charge the iPad). According to the Behringer rep at the NAMM show, he said the USB Type-A connector will be used to control the iX16 (as well as wireless). But then again, even their reps may not be that technical savvy. The Type-B connector on the back is used to connect your favorite DAW, but then again, it's another piece of equipment to lug around. For ease of use and portability, the DL1608 has served my purpose well. Would I entertain the idea of purchasing an iX16 when released...probably. Keep in mind that the X32, Xi16...etc. can be way more technical than the normal musician is capable of dealing with without a sound man to control it. The X32 Mix software for the iPad is way more complicated than MasterFader and will take a longer learning curve for most. That's my 2 cents ;)
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(just like when you plug iPad into your PC via USB Type-A, doesn't charge the iPad).
Sure it does - when the iPad is "locked". I do it all the time :) .
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According to the Behringer rep at the NAMM show, he said the USB Type-A connector will be used to control the iX16 (as well as wireless). But then again, even their reps may not be that technical savvy.
Or they are making it up a they go - as marketing droids are inclined to do. I have DIRECTLY asked Behringer folks (including Uli himself) to clarify this point and no joy so far. Just lots of third parties that ASSUME you can and Behringer not correcting them - best kind of lying is letting others do it for you so you can maintain plausible deniability ;) .
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(just like when you plug iPad into your PC via USB Type-A, doesn't charge the iPad).
Sure it does - when the iPad is "locked". I do it all the time :) .
Never tried it "locked" before. See, you can teach an old dog new tricks :).
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(just like when you plug iPad into your PC via USB Type-A, doesn't charge the iPad).
Sure it does - when the iPad is "locked". I do it all the time :) .
Never tried it "locked" before. See, you can teach an old dog new tricks :).
Interesting enough RR, I have an iPad 3 and iPad 4 (Retina) and both show as "Not Charging" when locked and plugged into my USB on the PC. This might be a setting in BIOS and varies from MB manufacturers. I will have to see if my ASUS MB supports it or not. Will keep you posted.
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Interesting enough RR, I have an iPad 3 and iPad 4 (Retina) and both
show as "Not Charging" when locked and plugged into my USB on the PC.
How would you know? The screen is off when locked. And yes, the iPad will only charge (slowly) from a "normal" usb port when the screen is off.
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Interesting enough RR, I have an iPad 3 and iPad 4 (Retina) and both
show as "Not Charging" when locked and plugged into my USB on the PC.
How would you know? The screen is off when locked. And yes, the iPad will only charge (slowly) from a "normal" usb port when the screen is off.
I little different interpretation of "locked". My interpretation of "locked" is "screen on asking for a pin code", but I see what you mean. Charging does happen at a slower rate with the screen off. Thanks for sharing :).
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Yah, I'm using Apple's definition - which isn't entirely intuitive x( .