Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: iBloke on October 27, 2014, 03:53:56 AM
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Firstly I'd like to publicly thank forum member WK154 who has not only shared with me a lot of his time and vast technical knowledge, but I also regard him as a friend.
One of the conversations I've had with him was in regards to the apple airport express which at the time I was considering to purchase for use with my DL1608.
He mentioned that there were other better options, which I read up on at the time. Unfortunately living down here in Australia we sometimes miss out on the variety of choices other countries have.
Anyway I've been using my man cave's D-Link DHP-1320 router since buying my DL.
It is one of those router/access points that use a buildings electrical wiring to transfer data between it and the base unit plugged into a power point somewhere else in the building.
It's a fussy bitch of a thing and needs regular reboots to keep it working properly.
At the gigs I've used it with my DL it has worked almost flawlessly once I manually set it up to work with my devices.
It really is a PITA sometimes and constantly needs to be told what to do on every device I connect to it in a gig environment.
And to make it work properly with the closed DL/iPad/iPhone wireless system it must never be connected to the base station that sends the Internet to it via electrical wiring. (I have to make sure my base station is unplugged when I try to use it for the DL in my shed, which is about 60 metres from my house)
A problem arose at a recent gig where the venue must have had a similar base station somewhere in its building because my D-link constantly tried to connect to it and made my gig a bit of a wireless control nightmare.
Out of frustration I quickly purchased an apple airport express simply because I just couldn't find any of the "better" routers WK154 recommended.
The outcome of this is both positive and negative.
The positive is it is the most user friendly, and easy to setup router I've ever encountered! Just wonderful!
Any technically challenged nuffy like me can work it out.
The negative is it has truly woeful range. In comparison to my D-link's range (it has 2 external antennas) the airport barely reaches the back of an average sized room before it drops out.
The D-link in the same room will stay connected 20+ metres further, through 2 brick walls, outside the building.
My uneducated guess for the reason behind this is that the D-link has 2 biggish external antennas, and the airport only has some kind of tiny internal antenna.
Anyway I hope this observation of mine will help other DL users in their choice of router.
I'm not disappointed in the my airport simply because it is just so easy to set up.
But with better antenna it could be a whole lot better overall.
Cheers :)
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Airport Express has been brilliant for me. How much range do you need?
I've not done any outside gigs but for even the biggest room, I've never had an issue.
Where are you putting it?
Cheers
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Airport Express has been brilliant for me. How much range do you need?
I've not done any outside gigs but for even the biggest room, I've never had an issue.
Where are you putting it?
Cheers
Last gig was in the township of Maffra. Their memorial town hall.
About 150 to 200 people attended, but I reckon the hall could hold 300 at least.
I walked to the back of that room from where I had perfect line of sight to my airport express. All three of my i devices (iPhone 6, iPad mini retina, and my old iPad 3 had random wifi drop outs)
Outside the hall none of them could connect at all.
I had my D-link with me as well, so I plugged it in to try and there was zero connectivity issues, even outside the hall.
But like I said, it's a pain in the arse to setup for every gig, although once I'm logged in with any of my iDevices it works almost flawlessly. Fantastic range even through several brick walls.
The airport drops out as soon as there is even one thin wood and plaster wall between it and the wireless iDevice.
But then as soon as I walk back into the limited range of the airport it syncs and resumes perfectly.
Unlike the bitchy D-link which often requires me to go manually through the various steps of wireless reconnection.
Positives, & negatives
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I haven't seen that issue, but I'm sure that in enough electrical noise and in a large enough room, it could be a problem. I placed my Airport Express on the mixer mount with double-sided tape. So it's on the top of the rack. Maybe the Mackie mixer mount provided it with a better base ground. Maybe I'm just lucky. Anyway, all the devices that can run at 5 Ghz are doing so and my iphone 4S is running at 2.4 Ghz. Most of the time, I'm mixing less than 100' away from the mixer.
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I haven't seen that issue, but I'm sure that in enough electrical noise and in a large enough room, it could be a problem. I placed my Airport Express on the mixer mount with double-sided tape. So it's on the top of the rack. Maybe the Mackie mixer mount provided it with a better base ground. Maybe I'm just lucky. Anyway, all the devices that can run at 5 Ghz are doing so and my iphone 4S is running at 2.4 Ghz. Most of the time, I'm mixing less than 100' away from the mixer.
I've downloaded an app that converts a lot of various things to something that I understood by our current metric measurement system.
I had no idea what "100' " is but with the help off this conversion app it tells me 100' = 30.48 metres.
The room I worked in with the airport was around 30 metres from stage to back wall.
My airport was the sitting at the highest point of my mixer table. Standing at the back wall with my iPad showed Very low wireless signal and dropped out randomly without moving.
The D-link in the same room showed full signal strength at the same position. No drop outs.
And it stayed connected outside the venue albeit with low signal strength, but I was still able to make adjustments wirelessly, even through the 2 brick walls that separated me from the router.
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G'day iBloke,
What you didn't state was which frequency you were using for the express. The 2.4 will give you more range than the 5 gig as long as there is no interference. Since your D-link is only a 2.4 that may explain the difference although antennas make a difference as well.
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G'day iBloke,
What you didn't state was which frequency you were using for the express. The 2.4 will give you more range than the 5 gig as long as there is no interference. Since your D-link is only a 2.4 that may explain the difference although antennas make a difference as well.
I've spent some time playing with the various settings in the airport menu and have tried both 2.4 & 5 together automatically.
And also set to 2.4 only, or 5 only. None of which made any difference to the outcome.
The band I was working for have their own PA which they supplied free, including themselves for a charity auction.
I got to the venue about 2 hours before them so I could set my gear up without any pressure. I used the spare time to test the variables between routers.
My D-link is 2.4 only.
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My airport express has been great for all the reasons iBloke says and, when I first used it, tested it's range getting adequate reception from outside a 30m long room, going out of the building IIRC the signal did drop.
I've just resurrected my old Vigor 2600 to use with my X-32 and, while I haven't tested it's range yet, getting that working was pretty painless too. It has aerials but only 2.4GHz. First gig with it a week on Sat, I may just buy something with 5GHz before then though as I've had issues with my iPod touch 4th gen and iPhone 4S (both 2.4GHz only) in a bar with lots of WiFi networks around, both iPads worked fine so I assume they were on 5GHz.
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Airport exoress is great for about twenty feet of AirPlay,
I use mine for a week on 2.4 for vnc duties, absolute rubbish, kept dropping, or the pc kept crashing,
I use a linksys 2.4 ghz wrtg54. I broadcast the Sid hotels full of pimply kids all looking for a signal, no problems
Kev
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I’ve run wireless right at the back of the school’s gym, I’d say probably up to 30 metres and no drop outs with the AirPort Express. I’m running on 5GHz only to avoid interference from all the cell phones in the room. The router sits on my desk in front of the stage.
I don’t even worry about line-of-sight. I’ve even walked out of the gym into the hallway and no drop outs. I can even run AirPlay from the back of the hall too, without drop outs. I could be just lucky though. Now that I’ve mentioned this, next time I use it IT will crap out. :laugh:
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You're right about antennas. Good antennas make a huge difference. I suspect that along with the beautiful looks of the Airport Express design, was that external antennas are big potential damage and failure locations. My ipads don't have the WiFi range that my MacBook does. I can use the MacBook outside in my car at a restaurant I frequent. The Ipads have to be indoors to function there. (Only 2.4 Ghz on that WiFi) They don't work on the dining patio when it's open in the summer either. Might be a good reason for Mackie to consider porting their Master Fader to a Laptop. Better range and a BIGGER screen would be immediate benefits.
I'm sorry about the use of American distances and notations. I can work in meters and generally just think of them as about the same length as a yard. (Pretty close.) So an American Football field is just a little shorter than 100 meters. (About the distance traveled in a car while attempting to read a text just before causing an accident.)
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Wynnd,
Do the newer iPads have better antennas? MIMO, or is MIMO only found in more expensive wireless routers? My laptop can connect outside the house, but not the iPads too. :(
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I'm not aware of any. I have an Ipad 2 and an Ipad mini without the retina display. When attempting to increase range, changing only one antenna is enough. (Cause it receives and transmits better.) The old Pringles can antenna worked quite well as a direction source. Probably something similar could be done with the Airport Express that would direct it's signal out towards the back of the room and reduce interference from other directions.
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One of the reasons I don't subscribe to non removable antenna on wireless mics and also network access points is the lack of flexibility to change antenna. If your looking for highly directional antenna the helix is for you, but at a ridiculous price. Virginia Tech has a compact design called a stub helix. http://www.antenna.ece.vt.edu/product/SLH.pdf There are of course lots of DIY antennas out there as well as types such as log periodic etc. all directional.
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If it's practical, what about sticking your Airport Express on top of one of your tripod mounted FOH speakers? It can be placed at the back of the top on one of the cabs, so it can't be noticed. Would that give you better Line of Sight reception? Of course you would need a longer power and CAT5 cable as well.
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If it's practical, what about sticking your Airport Express on top of one of your tripod mounted FOH speakers? It can be placed at the back of the top on one of the cabs, so it can't be noticed. Would that give you better Line of Sight reception? Of course you would need a longer power and CAT5 cable as well.
Are you ready for a boatload of EMI?
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If it's practical, what about sticking your Airport Express on top of one of your tripod mounted FOH speakers? It can be placed at the back of the top on one of the cabs, so it can't be noticed. Would that give you better Line of Sight reception? Of course you would need a longer power and CAT5 cable as well.
Are you ready for a boatload of EMI?
Not particularly. ;)
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In my experience i only have had dropouts when i placed my express up high on top off my speakers , it seems that the express has a half hemisphere coverage ,the dropouts ceased when i took it down and placed it next to the mixer about 2' above the floor.
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To WK and Topsøe:
Thanks for the good advice and information. :)
So definitely not on top of a speaker then. Thought it was a good idea. ::) My Express has always worked fine beside the DL on the mixing desk. ;)
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To WK and Topsøe:
Thanks for the good advice and information. :)
So definitely not on top of a speaker then. Thought it was a good idea. ::) My Express has always worked fine beside the DL on the mixing desk. ;)
That's where I usually sit mine (beside the DL that is) and get pretty good results. I only use the 5ghz as there are now lots of digital mic's using 2.4ghz.
I did have some problems the other night with interference from a analogue radio mic - moving the express away from the mic receiver solved the issue (as you would expect).
Cheers
Cheers
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I'm sorry about the use of American distances and notations. I can work in meters and generally just think of them as about the same length as a yard. (Pretty close.) So an American Football field is just a little shorter than 100 meters. (About the distance traveled in a car while attempting to read a text just before causing an accident.)
:) no worries Wynnd.
It's just that Australia converted to the metric system when I was about 6 (about 46 years ago) so I really can't get my head around the old inches/feet/yards/miles system.
All I know is there are 12" in 1' and there are 3' in a yard. But that's about the extent of my understanding. :)
Most of the rooms I work in are relatively small so having a huge wifi range is not terribly important .
The thing I dig the most with the airport is its simple interface, and even when it does drop out it quickly reconnects with no fuss. Unlike the d-link .
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I'm with you 100%. The Airport Express makes setting up WiFi look so simple. And any Network Tech can tell you that it can be much harder to do successfully. (I was a PC/Netware/Network tech in a previous life. CNA and A+ Certified. Been out of the field about 13 years now.)
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Just as an aside, I chose the express but thought about going for an extreme as it would have provided extended range.
The small size of the express was the main attraction for me, and as I said earlier, its been brilliant.
Cheers
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Just as an aside, I chose the express but thought about going for an extreme as it would have provided extended range.
The small size of the express was the main attraction for me, and as I said earlier, its been brilliant.
Cheers
I also dig the small size of the express.
My D-link is over twice the size, and it takes up most of the space in the bottom of my DL's road case along with the power supply and related cables.
I did briefly look at the extreme, but at $250, and over 7.5 times larger than the express it was quickly overlooked.
It's bad enough having to supply my own router to use the wireless function of the DL (I reckon it should have wireless built in)
But to carry a wireless router that's nearly the size of a house brick, and costing almost 25% of the my DL1608's purchase price would have been a hard pill to swallow.
Anyway, my whole PA gets set up in my man cave as my seriously over the top stereo between gigs.
When I load all the gear into my "truck" to go and do a gig there's more than enough spare room to carry my backup A&H Zed 10 mixer, and the D-link router. Just in case poop hits the windmill :D
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Have a look at this...
http://www.quickertek.com/products/AntennaExpress.html
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Have a look at this...
http://www.quickertek.com/products/AntennaExpress.html
Not bad if you can sucker people into spending a $100 extra for two rubber duckies. Worse for a meager 2-3 dBi.
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I have my linksys router homed in the space that squeezing a half rack radio mic receiver between the x over and mixer above it creates,
No noise , no interference either
Most problems I encounter are through the psu for iems and receivers and such, humming through the audio leads on the back of the x over or mixer.
That's why my next generation of mixer and x over products will all have a 12v- 18v 1 amp outlet on the back.
Let's rid the world of stupid little black boxes.
:lol:
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Gave airport express another go tonight, iPad Air mk one, using AirPlay 2 feet from each other,
It dropped halfway through the gig, embarrassing pressing stop and play waiting 2 seconds no audio and realizing that the audio had reverted to the built in speakers.
:(
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Gave airport express another go tonight, iPad Air mk one, using AirPlay 2 feet from each other,
It dropped halfway through the gig, embarrassing pressing stop and play waiting 2 seconds no audio and realizing that the audio had reverted to the built in speakers.
:(
Hey Kev,
Nice being reduced to holding a live mic up to the speaker days once again. ;)
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Gave airport express another go tonight, iPad Air mk one, using AirPlay 2 feet from each other,
It dropped halfway through the gig, embarrassing pressing stop and play waiting 2 seconds no audio and realizing that the audio had reverted to the built in speakers.
:(
Hey Kev,
Nice being reduced to holding a live mic up to the speaker days once again. ;)
Not tried that yet,
Lol