Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: JCClemmo on May 01, 2020, 12:34:29 PM
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Hello, I am a complete nub here, not only to mixing, but to the Master Fader App as well. But, setting up an in ear monitor system at mu church was left up to me, so here I am. We have the DL16S. I have a dedicated iPad for the main mixing to be done, and every time I get close to the Mackie with it, it automatically connects. My phone also does the same thing. I also set up a couple of users. The first also had an iPad and his connected right up. The other, with an iPhone 8 had some trouble. Now, every time he wants to link to the Mackie, he has to erase the app, reload it, then re-link his WiFi to it, then it will work. only till he gets out of range of the Mackie, then he has to do it all over again. Any ideas on whats causing this? Perhaps a setting in his phone? Thanks for any help!
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first, welcome to the forum.
Most likely, the devices that are finicky about staying connected, or even connecting at all probably have the password saved for the church's Wi-Fi internet. As soon as the Wi-Fi for the church's internet is "seen" the device connects.
The following info might help make the DL16S connect to it's Wi-Fi connection first instead of latching onto the church's Wi-Fi. For each device, go to settings, click on the church's Wi-Fi and then click the small blue "info" icon on the right and then choose "FORGET THIS NETWORK"
Try that and see if it helps, I have not had any experience with the "built-in" Wi-Fi router on the DL16S or DL32S so you may want to borrow someone's Wi-Fi router and see if it works better. If it does, buy a router for the DL16S and of course,... the router should NOT have an internet connection. The internet is for browsing and when we use the DL mixer wirelessly, we are not browsing and therefore we don't need an internet connection, just a Wi-Fi connection to the DL16S.
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Welcome Nubee. To answer your many questions let me first state that your connection problem can be solved. What it has to do with a in-ear monitor system begs the question. A separate issue altogether and not addressed here. I'm assuming that you aren't too familiar with networking and so I will give you a general sense of what needs to happen for a solid connection for all the unknown devices that you brought into the picture such as the churches iPad and other unknown phones. I am also assuming that there are other networks in the facility most of which are connected to the Internet. To operate a reliable network with devices and the DL16S you need to remove your network as Dan pointed out from any Internet connection. You want what's known as a Intranet. Most client devices (iPad, phones) that are going to connect to your network unfortunately will seek other networks if you are out of range or lose connection thus causing your connection loss to the DL16S network. As Dan pointed out you then you need to reconnect the device again. No need to reload the app. Which brings me to the basics. The DL16S is our router in the network and the iPad and other phones are the clients in the default setup. The first thing that needs to be established is a connection between the router and the client no matter what devices are involved. It has nothing to do with the Master Fader app. Without a connection the MF app will not be able to communicate and reloading and restarting won't help. The process for this will vary with the type of device. This connection is the Achilles Heel of the system, more on that later. The reliable way to set up your DL16S network would be with fixed IP addresses but it would require someone with network knowledge and I won't go into this here. The other and more serious problem you will be faced with is all those parishioners with their cell phones on mute not Airplane mode. This is the Achilles Heel I was talking about. The inadequate WiFi chip in the DL16S won't be able to handle this issue. So the almost unanimous suggestion by users (even Mackie) is to use a external router with the 5GHz range and best with 802.11AX capability. The Netgear Nighthawk AX4 or equivalent come to mind. You would only want to use the 5GHz range for this. I hope all this is not to technical since it's only the tip of the iceberg.
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I guess JC doesn't need our help
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The perils of technical forums, they get what they want and move on. :(
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at least we tried to help the guy out... 8)
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Could be that he hasn't had time to get to the equipment with COVID-19 issues.
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covid this
covid that
::)
If I hear... "we're all in this together"
one more time,
I'm gonna puke
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I just puked....
(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/puke.png)
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Yeah I hear you but this stuff is nasty an on the move. It has mutated.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/a-mutant-coronavirus-has-emerged-even-more-contagious-than-the-original-study-says/ar-BB13CHNP?ocid=msedgntp
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Hey Guys!! So Sorry I haven't replied I didn't honestly figure anybody would respond. Thank You So much! You are of course absolutely correct, it was the problem with the church's WiFi. Apparently most phones want a WiFi connection that has internet service and they don't like ones that haven't got it. Dan! I have watched all your videos on the Master Fader app Multiple times, so many that I should know how to make this thing work, but I only get to work on it while I am at church and while everybody is there, so its kind of hard. But, enough crying about it. WK, I have noticed exactly what you said does happen (if I am understanding correctly) When they open the app, before making sure they are connected to the Mackie in settings first, it doesn't work. They have been able to erase the app, reload it it and it will then connect and work, but, its only because they check to make sure the phone is connected to the Mackie's WiFi first. The phone that had the trouble last week happen to check the WiFi first this week and everything worked flawlessly. I greatly appreciate the responses and again sorry for the delay.
Now, can you tell me how to make the left right channels two separate in ear monitor mixes? The DL16S has 6 Aux outs and a left and right 7 and 8. I really need to be able to use those as in ear monitor mixes, but the mixes to be different for each person. Admittedly we probably bought the wrong piece of equipment for what we am trying to do, but at this point its what I have to work with. Also, I cant seem to get any of the 4 FX channels reverb or delay to work. I know these are different subjects probably covered in different areas, so if you dont want to answer here I totally understand. Never the less, Thanks you so much!
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OK. For clarity when you say "erase" the app you mean delete the app from the phone and then reinstall it. This is totally unnecessary. It's simply a two step process of connecting the phone first to the Mackie or router and then running MF. As far as the monitor issue is concerned the short answer is a DL32S or DL32R (the church missed Dan's bargain). The long answer is that you need to manage with the 6 aux's. If it's just a matter of sharing the same aux's by two people a splitter will do. This is based on the assumption that all monitor mixes are via cable not wireless and go to headphones not stage monitors (a bad solution). Otherwise a compromise will have to do on the monitor mixes. The FX is usually caused by some fader setting (off) in the FX setup not set correctly.
P.S. All I know right now about you setup is that you have a DL16S, iPad (unknown version) and some phones also unknown. We also don't know what your trying to achieve in more detail. This is really not enough to give you detailed informed answers.
Cheers
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Hi JC, we are glad we got you going in the correct direction....
as WK said, you need to use the AUX outputs for in ear monitoring.... and the DL1608 can provide up to six musicians with separate mixes.
The Left/Right should (ideally) be used for the main sound system for the congregation sound.
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I'm sorry, I really should have been more clear on what was going on. I am so appreciative that you guys are willing to help. For the Front of house, ( learned that from your video Dan) we have a brand new Midas 32 channel mixer. Its running two overhead JBL's and two Mackie subs that are on the floor (which I dont think they should be, but what do I know) then there are two JBL floor monitors beside the pulpit and another four small musician monitors scattered around behind the vanity wall for the musicians. Also we have 5 amplifiers, one on each guitar, Main acoustic, rhythm acoustic, rhythm electric, and me, lead electric and bass. Yes I am the lead guitar player, so now you know what kind of moron your really dealing with here :) The band consists of Piano, keyboard, drums (electric) two AC guitars, two electric guitars and a bass. So, you can imagine the sound mans nightmare. And of course he has most of these people endlessly complaining about not being able to hear themselves. Plus the added problems with all these monitors and especially amplifiers messing with the mix through the choir mics. So, I actually bought the Mackie DL16S out of my own pocket to try to set everyone up with in ear monitors. It seemed like the most bang for the amount of money I had to spend on it. How we ended up here was I had purchased the Mackie and was trying to learn how to use it before I took it to the church. In the mean time, the antiquated and failing analog 32 channel mixer got struck by lightning. Insurance paid for the Midas board to be installed. And here we are. And before you say it, I cant ask the sound guy, he's a truck parts sales guy and is REALLY struggling to learn how to run the new digital midas board. If I were to ask him about this setup his head might explode.
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This is a youtube video of last weeks service. You'll be able to tell what I am dealing with here as far as sound guys when you hear the mix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_hMCjXsNVQ
I cant get it to past as a hyperlink for some reason. I forgot to mention. I am running everything through berhinger splitters before they run into the midas stage boxes. That way I wouldnt be interfering with the mix they had other than our amps dropping out one by one as I get each person connected. Which is also probably the wrong way to do it.
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Wow the devil is really in the details and playing his fiddle in Georgia :) The problem is simply too many cooks in the kitchen and the timing was not in your favor. The DL16S was bought before the M32 Midas (a replacement for a far less capable analog board) and splitters were there as well AFAIK. Instead of kludging things any more it's time to reassess your setup. I still haven't a clue as to what in-ears you have (wired, wireless). I know from the video that there are at least 4 wireless and some wired mics including three choir mics. The acoustics from what I see are highly reflective and I don't know the depth of the church but a full choir and congregation will help that. A capable audio consultant should have given the church some guidance. I have seen too many churches where the sound system and acoustics just grew as money became available, no overall design just suggestions from homegrown experts. COVID-19 will be gone hopefully soon but your sound problem won't until you correct it. The Midas has all the capability that you will need with some additions for the in-ears. Ultranet in-ear equipment (Behringer) will quiet the complaints to the FOH guy. Sorry I know I'm suggesting eliminating your job, but you now can play your guitar without playing monitor sound guy as well. Stage amps, splitters and monitors need to go (more room less stage noise and mic bleed). I won't go into the speaker system placement, suffice it to say it needs work. That's all the bad news for now. The problem the church faces is the budget for this and a professional design. It takes thousand of $ in test equipment and software to do this right, not something that a church would want to invest in. Almost forgot the main ingredient, someone skilled to use the tools and knows sound design. Beware of the "golden ears" variety.
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Hey WK!
Sorry for the long delay, My Dad has been in the hospital, but that's another long story. You couldn't possible have nailed our situation any more correct. My friend that I had come look at the church also mentioned the speakers and their arrangement. The guy the church insisted on using said the speaker were fine. I'm an idiot on this stuff, but even I knew better than that. I greatly appreciate all the help you guys have given. The unit since the first post has actually been connecting pretty good to peoples devices and doing a good job. I still would love to figure out how to make the L and R just two different monitor mixes but I guess I'll just have to stumble on to it, I know I'm just missing something somewhere. I do know this, I wish I were set up to record what I hear in my monitors (Which is a very cheap but decent Audio2000 cordless unit) Our Youtube presence would sound A LOT different.
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I still would love to figure out how to make the L and R just two different monitor mixes but I guess I'll just have to stumble on to it
you won't stumble across how to use the main left/right for two separate monitor mixes because it can't be done properly.
HOWEVER... the L/R can be used for two different monitor mixes, BUT.... BUT.... many things will not be separate,
equalizers, compressors, gates, will all be the same for both L & R output channels.
For instance, there is only one master fader for the Main left right which means both mixes will have to share the master.
The only way to get two separate mixes is to use the pan slider to set which channels go left, and which channels go right.
If you try this... make absolute sure that all your monitor mixes are set to PRE fader.
The correct answer for your problem is to sell your mixer on eBay, get what you can for it and then buy a mixer with more mix outputs like the DL32S.
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I hope your dad is fine and home. This is where Dan and I disagree. Based on the overall equipment array that you have, yes you need to sell your DL16s and turn to the M32 strengths namely Ultranet. The monitor system based on it will solve more of your problems than any separate mixer just for IEM's. Yes you will have to learn the mixer and it's subsystems but it will be worth it. As to the speaker system without boots on the ground and little information I can only generalize. The subs are actually fine where they are but the JBL's flown on either side need to be center hung at the congregation not at the walls or back. Neither places have ears just a lot of reflections. Delay ability is essential for this which the M32 has. I haven't gone thru the costs but in the long run it's the better choice IMHO.
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I completely agree with WK in his last post about everything he said.
Learning the ropes of the M32 makes far more sense, especially if you're new to sound.
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Thanks so much for all your help gentlemen I greatly appreciate it. I'll talk to everyone involved and give them your suggestions. The idea of me being completely out of the equation and just worrying about what I do, sounds like a great idea!
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At times one needs to step back from the trees and look at the forest for clarity. Such is this case. The M32 is overkill for your application, let me explain. The 8 in-ears that you are looking for are easily handled by the M32 without breaking a sweat. It has 20 available aux outputs. Once you have removed and possibly sold the mic splitters, Dl16s and stage monitors and other stage noise sources you will have ample funds to buy P2's from Behringer ($35 each). The in-ear's should be a personal item for each performer and covered by them. They can range from $20 to $800 plus a visit to an Audiologist to give you an idea. I am assuming that the prior analog mixers cabling is still in good condition and can be used. The FOH "head explosion" can be handled by allowing the complainers to adjust their own mix via the app on their phone or tablet. Two people learning the M32 would be the minimum in any case. You will need a robust router such as the AX4 in any case ($120). If you need the more traditional hands on then look at the Ultranet solution. A four unit set runs about $1400 from B&H and others. Hope this helps
Cheers
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whoever sold and installed the M32 to the church should be able to assist you with all of this...
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Like most of this it has been one surprise after another and always a lack of info. Could be mail-ordered. :)
P.S. Did we just sentence JC to two years of U-Tube viewings. ;D
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Ha ha! you probably have. Do the two stage boxes for the M32 support ...... I just realized that was a stupid question. I think the main problem here, as bad as I hate to say it is lack of knowledge of the M32.
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You don't need anything other than what I described above and you'll be using about half the M32 mixer based on mics, instruments and performers headcount. It would be good if your FOH guy contact us if you need additional help.
There is one major advantage with the Ultranet approach in that the performers can only affect their own mix never FOH or others.
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To help you with some of U-Tube info try Drew Brasher's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOoo9XExoQ4) and MusicansPro Sean Thomas and of course Behringer/Midas. A word of caution V4 firmware changed a lot so keep that in mind as you observe these webcasts and training videos. Although a lot remained the same some major sections changed. Last thing you need is to learn the old V3 stuff that changed. The X32 and M32 are very close in operations. Most differences are hardware like look, faders, buttons and preamps. I am assuming that the M32 is current.
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I know what your talking about there. The FOH guy was trying to run the cordless mics down to the left stage box so I could run them into the DL16, but he said the firmware update made such a change he couldnt figure out how to do it. I dont know that we have the know how to set up the Ultranet setup. Knowledge, information and training are obviously key here. I will turn our FOH guy onto all this information along with watching it myself.
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OK another surprise, talk about more overkill. I think at this point we need a list of your equipment (name and model at minimum) and your physical hookups and certainly some pics of the area, FOH included so we can get a better idea of what we're up against.
What I can gather at this time is that your church has a M32 and two DL16 stage boxes (very confusing not Mackie) as the main system. Who sold you this and what help if any can they offer? It would behoove you to find someone local with experience to bring you up to speed on this gear. Routing which was upgraded in V4 seems to be your main problem. There are U-Tube videos to explain V4 changes available. Google will be your friend.
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JC you may want to watch Drew's routing video for V4 X32/M32. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBnuuPCnGTQ
Cheers
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To keep some semblance of order here I continued this thread here http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1568.msg18478#msg18478
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So get this, I talked to the sound guy and he basically told me he was saving ALL the empty output channels on the stage boxes for extra speakers if they ever needed them.
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So get this, I talked to the sound guy and he basically told me he was saving ALL the empty output channels on the stage boxes for extra speakers if they ever needed them.
Hahah well... there ya go =)
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So get this, I talked to the sound guy and he basically told me he was saving ALL the empty output channels on the stage boxes for extra speakers if they ever needed them.
REALLY! Sounds like your FOH guy doesn't need or want any help.
Cheers
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So get this, I talked to the sound guy and he basically told me he was saving ALL the empty output channels on the stage boxes for extra speakers if they ever needed them.
it is pretty obvious to me that your "sound-guy" does not have a Christ-like attitude and you should speak to your Pastor about this. If the Pastor does not want to address the situation, then I suggest you take your family, time, tithes and gifts to a different church.