Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: WK154 on January 01, 2014, 08:28:24 AM
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Now that NAMM is only 23 days away what new toys will catch our fancy? Will the marketing droids maneuver to stop you from buying their competitors gear now with news leaks and the usual vague carrots? If you hear anything worthwhile post it but don't turn into a marketing droid yourself. Now all we have to do is sit back and wait.
Happy New Year!
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Namm will see Mackie release the revolutionary DL404. It will look exactly like the 1608 and 806 but with 4 xlr ins and 4 outs. It will be another huge step forward! They will also release an even smaller speaker that sounds worse than the dlm series. If that's even possible. Meanwhile company's like behringer, and mackies other competition, are building mixers that will fly you to the moon and back.
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There's a rumor that Midas will introduce a new mixer. Just at what price point is unknown. They have mixers as low as $1200. Uli could be trying to pick up more of the lower end market those opposed to the Behringer name. Then again it could be one in the six figures kind.
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well, there's this, which looks like an ipad-sized touchscreen mixer interface from QSC:
http://qscmarketing.com/january2014
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On the high end $ of most DL users is a new entry based on the touch panel workflow. The are also known as LAW's (live audio workstations). Here is one of several LAW's I'm aware of. For $2400 and certainly competition for the X32 is the Raven MTi. The video is for both consoles the much pricier MTX and the low end MTi. Will they show at NAMM?
http://www.slateproaudio.com/videos/
Perhaps Phonic will actually show a Acapela 16 at NAMM.
Then there is the ever present but not at NAMM Bob Lentini with S.A.C. and his SawStudio DIY rigs not for the uninitiated. For those unfamiliar with this concept a video.
http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/Videos_SAC_On_Stage.htm
With the ADA8200 and their Firewire/USB FCA1616 and S.A.C. software will be in the range of the DL. Instead of an iPad you get either a PC tablet (X86 based) or a laptop for a complete live mixer recorder (16 channels). His software also handles the touch screen gestures or you can use a mouse/keyboard.
Will the vanquished iX16 be shown?
19 days 12hrs 46 minutes left. http://www.namm.org/thenammshow/2014
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Wk you are way off on that post. Way off. The raven is simply a control panel for a daw. There is no ins or outs. No software, no computer. It's a giant touchscreen. Does nothing on its own but control other gear.
There is also a lot more to the sac software you discussed. It's a multi thousand dollar investment just to get started. It's just software no hardware.
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Then there is the ever present but not at NAMM Bob Lentini with S.A.C. and his SawStudio DIY rigs not for the uninitiated. For those unfamiliar with this concept a video.
http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/Videos_SAC_On_Stage.htm
Oh man, flashback time... I've had many discussions with an engineer who will swear up & down that no digital rig, live or studio, comes close to the sonic quality of SAC/SAW... his argument has always been that because the summing bus uses integer math instead of floating point, it's way more accurate.
Of course his argument hasn't changed in 20 years, while everything else has.
He's also a 9/11 Truther, FWIW
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Wk you are way off on that post. Way off. The raven is simply a control panel for a daw. There is no ins or outs. No software, no computer. It's a giant touchscreen. Does nothing on its own but control other gear.
There is also a lot more to the sac software you discussed. It's a multi thousand dollar investment just to get started. It's just software no hardware.
Actually JR it's a control surface with software that runs on a Mac front-ending DAW hardware. I should have qualified the use which would be in the studio for now and pricier as a system than the full X32. Out of it's element in live venues for now. The X32 was intended for live venues but it's also being used in studio's. The lines are blurring as hardware runs faster and delays become a non-issue.
I bought into SawStudio back in 2005 with a M-audio 1814 and ADA8000. The weak link was the M-audio Fire-wire driver. Starting to sound familiar? iOS Core Audio USB type link and a DL. It comes down to where the dividing line on equipment rests. Do you simply hook up mics to a computer by sending it numbers (Neumann Digital series) and then manipulate those numbers and send them to a Speaker that converts this to analog? All these things exist today just not at the right price and bundled by one company. As to the price for a 16 input system ADA8200~$350 , FCA1616 ~$250 and S.A.C. software ~$500 that's a total of $1100 not far from a DL. No "B" gear OK Focusrite Octopre ~$350, a 18i20 ~$450 and S.A.C. software~$500 for $1300. Features and expansion capability far beyond a DL. In both cases at minimum you need a tablet to complete the system.
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The basic system is 4 mic pre's short of the DL but otherwise it's an option I may have tried years ago if I'd known about it. OTOH, Windoze and live audio…… Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Then there is the ever present but not at NAMM Bob Lentini with S.A.C. and his SawStudio DIY rigs not for the uninitiated. For those unfamiliar with this concept a video.
http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/Videos_SAC_On_Stage.htm
Oh man, flashback time... I've had many discussions with an engineer who will swear up & down that no digital rig, live or studio, comes close to the sonic quality of SAC/SAW... his argument has always been that because the summing bus uses integer math instead of floating point, it's way more accurate.
Of course his argument hasn't changed in 20 years, while everything else has.
He's also a 9/11 Truther, FWIW
In a 32 bit world he is right on the precision of integer over 32 bit floating point as long as the summing bus values don't exceed 32bits. Did you ever ask him what he would do with all that precision when it comes down to a 24bit D/A converter? Oh 8 bits thrown away that were never needed or do we need a 32 bit D/A converter. The SAW/SAC is a digital studio/live mixer and the ancillary equipment to make this work has a lot more to do with the sonic quality (ie. mics, pre's and speakers all analog). What argument? Engineer?
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The basic system is 4 mic pre's short of the DL but otherwise it's an option I may have tried years ago if I'd known about it. OTOH, Windoze and live audio…… Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm on a Windozz system that's been running for a month no reboot. Only shut down for my trips. Not something a lot of you can say about the sour fruits current state. FCA has 4 line inputs as well so keyboards and other line equipment makes it 8. Yes a midi input as well that's 9. You only use mics? Let me state it another way the DL is short 4 line inputs and has no high impedance input and no MIDI input.
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Wk are you not forgetting about the computer to run the sac software. A cheap computer is not gonna handle it well.
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Wk are you not forgetting about the computer to run the sac software. A cheap computer is not gonna handle it well.
Not at all that's more a personal choice as to how much hp and screen size you want to apply but a i5 based tablet/laptop for under $800 easily will do the job. About the same as an Air with 128gb. His requirements are far below this. Multi-core is actually being used on this engine (SAC). Don't forget that you have to turn a general purpose OS into a real time OS to run smoothly. Same as the iPad's iOS needs tuning. I would probably opt for a 1U server rackmount with 2 PCIe slots and add in RME Adat card instead of the FCA. There are endless combinations with this software up to 72 inputs.
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The basic system is 4 mic pre's short of the DL but otherwise it's an option I may have tried years ago if I'd known about it. OTOH, Windoze and live audio…… Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm on a Windozz system that's been running for a month no reboot. Only shut down for my trips. Not something a lot of you can say about the sour fruits current state. FCA has 4 line inputs as well so keyboards and other line equipment makes it 8. Yes a midi input as well that's 9. You only use mics? Let me state it another way the DL is short 4 line inputs and has no high impedance input.
Yes, I only use mics or DIs, the only time I use the jack inputs is for a laptop local to the desk, and I'll use DIs for that if it's more than a 1.5M lead away.
In the UK the hardware cost is probably slightly higher than the DL and, as the DL does it's own processing of the audio you would need a laptop or local Windows tablet to run the audio processing, that would bring the total up to X32 rack territory.
If your local PC crashes (not uncommon IME) you lose audio unlike the DL/X32 rack based system. I'd always prefer to use a dedicated device over a general purpose computer for mission critical stuff.
My various fruit has been free from blemish so far.
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The basic system is 4 mic pre's short of the DL but otherwise it's an option I may have tried years ago if I'd known about it. OTOH, Windoze and live audio…… Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm on a Windozz system that's been running for a month no reboot. Only shut down for my trips. Not something a lot of you can say about the sour fruits current state. FCA has 4 line inputs as well so keyboards and other line equipment makes it 8. Yes a midi input as well that's 9. You only use mics? Let me state it another way the DL is short 4 line inputs and has no high impedance input.
Yes, I only use mics or DIs, the only time I use the jack inputs is for a laptop local to the desk, and I'll use DIs for that if it's more than a 1.5M lead away.
In the UK the hardware cost is probably slightly higher than the DL and, as the DL does it's own processing of the audio you would need a laptop or local Windows tablet to run the audio processing, that would bring the total up to X32 rack territory.
If your local PC crashes (not uncommon IME) you lose audio unlike the DL/X32 rack based system. I'd always prefer to use a dedicated device over a general purpose computer for mission critical stuff.
My various fruit has been free from blemish so far.
I get were your coming from but in my world for many decades the general purpose computer was used in mission critical stuff. Many 24/7/365 apps that ran factories etc. Yes backup plans and scheduled maintenance.
Shh don't tell those fruits that or they'll rot on you.
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The GP computers running industry (as opposed to a bit of word processing in the office) usually ran Unix or some such with dedicated software, not good old windows and, as you say had backups for the backups.
I'm a late convert to fruit and definitely not a fanboy (I hate the way they often do business) but as I've got older I CBA learning yet another operating system every year. The fruit based iTems I now use do seem to do what they say on the tin with a minimum of fuss.
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Would you believe DOS and NT in that mix. It depends on the app just like the present MF problem. The slow fix cycle is no doubt aggravating to many users. iOS is also to blame for some of this. Back to NAMM 17 days 21 hrs 4 min. and counting.
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Back in the day I tried them all, I started with DOS 5.xx and progressed to Windows (ultimately 3.11 over DOS 6.xx) followed by Win 95 and 98, with a side order of NT and 2k, used 98lite for audio, then XP, Vista and, relatively recently, Win 7 on my wife's office PC. Managed to resist the call of Win 8 so far and when the next office PC looms it'll be an iMac (if only so I can help when my wife can't work it) :facepalm:
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Then there is the ever present but not at NAMM Bob Lentini with S.A.C. and his SawStudio DIY rigs not for the uninitiated. For those unfamiliar with this concept a video.
http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/Videos_SAC_On_Stage.htm
Oh man, flashback time... I've had many discussions with an engineer who will swear up & down that no digital rig, live or studio, comes close to the sonic quality of SAC/SAW... his argument has always been that because the summing bus uses integer math instead of floating point, it's way more accurate.
Of course his argument hasn't changed in 20 years, while everything else has.
He's also a 9/11 Truther, FWIW
In a 32 bit world he is right on the precision of integer over 32 bit floating point as long as the summing bus values don't exceed 32bits. Did you ever ask him what he would do with all that precision when it comes down to a 24bit D/A converter? Oh 8 bits thrown away that were never needed or do we need a 32 bit D/A converter. The SAW/SAC is a digital studio/live mixer and the ancillary equipment to make this work has a lot more to do with the sonic quality (ie. mics, pre's and speakers all analog). What argument? Engineer?
Lentini was recalcitrant with regard to float for the same reasons he never bothered to make a UI for SAW or SAC that doesnt look like vomit - he didnt see the point in using float and he could never be bothered to design a nice UI. His excuse was his bias towards working in Assembler, which is understandable and one of the reasons for the much vaunted (and justifiable) reputation for stability which SAW/SAC commands.
He eventually gave in on the fixed vs float arguments, mostly because he got tired of fighting AFAIK.
But as to SAW/SAC _sounding_ better than other DAWs? Just wishful thinking and projection. It does sound great, but so do other native DAW applications. Math is math.
But there's no arguing against the software's efficiency and stability, which is second to none due to Lentini's expertise with machine code and Assembler. And that's the real reason why SAC has a devoted base of users in live sound.
Still looks like vomit though!
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Back in the day I tried them all, I started with DOS 5.xx and progressed to Windows (ultimately 3.11 over DOS 6.xx) followed by Win 95 and 98, with a side order of NT and 2k, used 98lite for audio, then XP, Vista and, relatively recently, Win 7 on my wife's office PC. Managed to resist the call of Win 8 so far and when the next office PC looms it'll be an iMac (if only so I can help when my wife can't work it) :facepalm:
(dons Old Man cap) the first computer I worked with was Dos 1.1 on a 5 1/4" floppy. Sound sucked but I was the first kid to do his homework on a computer at my school...
I worked in IT through the 90's and for a good part of the 00's so I have a similar history to yours (quoted above) but with Macs randomly mixed in - I never really trusted a computer to stay up through a recording until OSX came out, pretty much all of my recording until then was analog or DAT for on-location.
We've come a long way baby
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My first OS was MS-DOS 1.1 on a Sanyo MBC-550 computer that I soldered memory chips piggyback to expand to 512 K of RAM. (It was the least compatible of the IBM compatibles.) I had gotten quite good with WordStar on it. Think I used sidekick and Turbo Pascal on it too. Those weren't the good old days. These are the good old days for desktop and laptop computing. I'm fully expecting tomorrow to be even better.
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What I'm getting here is that all the IT guys end up in Audio. I can see the familiarity and all the old rules hold true. That warm and fuzzy feeling.
Garbage in - Garbage out. Sound familiar?
Garbage in - Quality out. Only for the dreamers.
Quality in - not so much quality out. Ain't that the truth.
The root of the problem as always is between the seat and the keyboard. In audio it's even worst it's between the seat and all those knobs and faders.
Welcome home! :)
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You do realize that in High School it was the nerds that were able to make all that audio/visual stuff work and in computers it's the same people making stuff work. It's nice to see that pretty good nerds make more money than pretty good jocks. (About time.) My Son is pulling down a 6 figure salary on a single year of college. (Yea, it's not the college.) It's funny asking him advice on things, but he's knowledgeable about a lot of stuff. (And he's in his 30s.)
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You do realize that in High School it was the nerds that were able to make all that audio/visual stuff work and in computers it's the same people making stuff work. It's nice to see that pretty good nerds make more money than pretty good jocks. (About time.) My Son is pulling down a 6 figure salary on a single year of college. (Yea, it's not the college.) It's funny asking him advice on things, but he's knowledgeable about a lot of stuff. (And he's in his 30s.)
Yeah I was one of those nerds in a group called Stagecrafters (7th grade). We made our own amps and didn't let teachers near equipment. We had one mic and guarded it with our life's. Nice to get out of class to run a projector or some other techie thing. Sadly not much has changed in 50+ years.
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Blue Microphone will unveil their MO-FI in-ear (ear-buds) revolution to the world.
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Roland will of course surprise us early on the 15th (Wednesday) with all their new stuff. Here is were the surprise will be unveiled. http://www.rolandconnect.com/
Can't wait.
UPDATE Well nothing new in the mixer category for Roland
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Uli Behringer just dropped a carrot. Aside from the "launch" of V2 for the X32 he stated that 40 more new products will be "introduced" (my wording to avoid the availability and marketing trials problem). The iX16 will no doubt reappear.
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If you want to see NAMM live without the hassle stay tune for the Web Cast courtesy of PreSonus at http://www.presonus.com/videos/presonuslive repeated at night for those that can't make it during the day. It may be a little biased but what the hey.
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We are now a day and a half away from the NAMM 2014 event. Mackie's website states "no new events". That about says it all. Ironically they also list a lot of "Mackoids" and their roll at Mackie. Information you may need sometime in the future.
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Has mackie posted anything about going to Namm? Maybe after the embarrassment of the dl806 they were asked not to come back. Darn, I really wanted to see the dl404.
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Mackie booth 209A. Too bad they spent their money to get embarrassed.
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I really wonder why Mackie has not brought up Namm anywhere. Almost all of their competition has Namm mentioned on their web sites and Facebook pages.
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Well you can always call Mackie and ask for Callie Carmean "Trade-show Mistress" and ask what's up. Or tomorrow will tell. On second thought she may be in Anaheim already.
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well, there's this, which looks like an ipad-sized touchscreen mixer interface from QSC:
http://qscmarketing.com/january2014
Well QSC is about to do some damage to Mackie with an 8 and 16 + version including the screen (iPad mini size) along with a WiFi dongle and carrying case and a lot more features. Pricing at $899 and $1299 respectfully.
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Well QSC is about to do some damage to Mackie with an 8 and 16 + version including the screen (iPad mini size) along with a WiFi dongle and carrying case and a lot more features. Pricing at $899 and $1299 respectfully.
No recallable preamps. Fail.
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Well QSC is about to do some damage to Mackie with an 8 and 16 + version including the screen (iPad mini size) along with a WiFi dongle and carrying case and a lot more features. Pricing at $899 and $1299 respectfully.
No recallable preamps. Fail.
I hear you. Well today will tell. $200 may make a difference to some folks. Reputation and Warranties may also be a factor along with the extras.
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Not to mention probably 6 months before it ships....
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Not to mention probably 6 months before it ships....
That's done intentionally so you can save your pennies and buy one. :)
For those interested in the specs.
http://qsc.com/products/Mixers/Touchmix_Series/TouchMix-16/
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I'm already going down the X32 path. It's now a defacto standard, is accepted on riders (for club/pub gigs), has a large user base and offers the most flexible set of variations of any digital mixer family.
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I'm already going down the X32 path. It's now a defacto standard, is accepted on riders (for club/pub gigs), has a large user base and offers the most flexible set of variations of any digital mixer family.
As an X32 owner I can't argue that nor do I want to. There are some pricing issues with the line that do need to be fixed. Core is too pricey and S16 could be less expensive.
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Maybe so, but money is just one of multiple factors. I dont mind paying extra for products that are flexible, already proven and accepted in the marketplace.
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Not to get too far of subject I found a 2008 YouTube demo of Bob Lentini's SawStudio for those into recording. RMLlabs actually were at NAMM at one time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PunhXdH5U
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Well it's all over but the shouting or in this case the delivery. It will be an interesting year for gear. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing some. Stay tuned.