Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Keyboard Magic on February 20, 2015, 12:06:53 AM
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Was able to borrow an iPad Air 2 and play around with MF 3.X. My perceived “lag” disappeared completely. Acted like it was running MF 2.X. I then compared it to MF 3.X on my iPad 2. What a difference in my perception.
Too bad that you theoretically have to use a faster iPad to make the “lag” disappear. And MF looks so much nicer and sharper on the Retina Display too. The real question is will iOS 9 and the next MF version change all this once again? Or not?
All of us older (the iPad, not us) iPad users now have to buy a new iPad to run MF 3.X lightning (pun intended) fast? Not! I can actually live with a perceived lag for the time being. But it was nice to play with the iPad Air 2 just the same. :)
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I use an ipad air and agree that the lag is usually acceptable but it's still there.
Where it annoys me the most is with buttons. For example I press the mute button, nothing happens, so I press it again thinking I missed it the first time. Doh it was lag, and so I've actually muted and unmuted - its a bugger when someone is disconnecting an acoustic guitar - crackle, thump, bang.
For me the lag seems worse the first time you touch a control after a period of inactivity. After the first touch i seem to have very little lag for additional changes but once I stop making requests and let it rest, the lag is back for the first touch. It's kind of like it has to reconnect for the first request.
Nothing to do with lag but the other night I got caught out. I unthinkingly closed the cover on my ipad (putting it to sleep) and went to put up some lights. Someone onstage moved a microphone and there was a burst of feedback - by the time I got to the ipad, woke it up and got to the mute button I'd lost a couple of HF drivers. Didn't make much money that night! I was so pissed with myself as as I am normally very careful to mute outputs when I don't have the ipad in my hands.
BTW ever noticed how hard it is to find a sleeping ipad on a dark stage? I've put a couple of glow strips on it.
Cheers
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I use an ipad air and agree that the lag is usually acceptable but it's still there.
Where it annoys me the most is with buttons. For example I press the mute button, nothing happens, so I press it again thinking I missed it the first time. Doh it was lag, and so I've actually muted and unmuted - its a bugger when someone is disconnecting an acoustic guitar - crackle, thump, bang.
For me the lag seems worse the first time you touch a control after a period of inactivity. After the first touch i seem to have very little lag for additional changes but once I stop making requests and let it rest, the lag is back for the first touch. It's kind of like it has to reconnect for the first request.
Nothing to do with lag but the other night I got caught out. I unthinkingly closed the cover on my ipad (putting it to sleep) and went to put up some lights. Someone onstage moved a microphone and there was a burst of feedback - by the time I got to the ipad, woke it up and got to the mute button I'd lost a couple of HF drivers. Didn't make much money that night! I was so pissed with myself as as I am normally very careful to mute outputs when I don't have the ipad in my hands.
BTW ever noticed how hard it is to find a sleeping ipad on a dark stage? I've put a couple of glow strips on it.
Cheers
Hey,
I noticed that with the controls. It sort of forgets that you just used that particular control and goes "Oh, sorry, I was just resting for a nanosecond, would you like to re use this one again? Are you sure?" Are you really sure? ;)
Oh, I feel your pain losing HF drivers. Ouch! Not fun and expensive too! It happens to the best of us, but even when it's not really our fault that something goes wrong, like feedback, it's always your, our fault as far as the management is concerned and every one in the venue too. :facepalm:
I have had that experience locating my iPad! Glow strips is a very unique and smart idea. :thu: Going to have to add that to my box of gear. 8)
I hope the replacement HF Drivers aren't too expensive?
Good Luck!
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That sounds a bit like it's trying to save energy. Almost sleeping? I've run into that. Is there a performance mode on an ipad? If there were, it would be the one to reach for.
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Hey,
I noticed that with the controls. It sort of forgets that you just used that particular control and goes "Oh, sorry, I was just resting for a nanosecond, would you like to re use this one again? Are you sure?" Are you really sure? ;)
Oh, I feel your pain losing HF drivers. Ouch! Not fun and expensive too! It happens to the best of us, but even when it's not really our fault that something goes wrong, like feedback, it's always your, our fault as far as the management is concerned and every one in the venue too. :facepalm:
I have had that experience locating my iPad! Glow strips is a very unique and smart idea. :thu: Going to have to add that to my box of gear. 8)
I hope the replacement HF Drivers aren't too expensive?
Good Luck!
The drivers weren't too expensive and I was able to change them myself (just the diaphrams). All up and running and ready for tonight's gig!.
Hopefully there will be no repeat of the last performance. It's amazing how long a few seconds seems to lasts when you are trying to stop the dreaded feedback!
Cheers
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Dreaded FEEDBACK? Only an issue in loud bands without any type of feedback killer. I'm using DriveRack PX for that and I really prefer much lower volumes. Most of the time, I don't bother even setting up the anti-feedback.
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Dreaded FEEDBACK? Only an issue in loud bands without any type of feedback killer. I'm using DriveRack PX for that and I really prefer much lower volumes. Most of the time, I don't bother even setting up the anti-feedback.
Where's the Wynnd I used to know??? Feedback is from bad mic placement and poor room acoustics not from loud bands!!!!
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I'm betting loud bands is the primary source of feedback. Yes the vocal should be above the guitars, drums, bass, horns...... But in a loud band it becomes impossible indoors. Easiest and best way to cure that problem is for the musicians to back way down. I know that really pisses some musicians off, but not mature intelligent ones. (The ones who recognize that drowning out the vocal can be their fault.) OK, I get the joke. Got to admit that bad speaker placement can cause their own problems. (And I can easily think of many examples where that is what happened with great equipment and screwed up the coverage.)
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I'm betting loud bands is the primary source of feedback. Yes the vocal should be above the guitars, drums, bass, horns...... But in a loud band it becomes impossible indoors. Easiest and best way to cure that problem is for the musicians to back way down. I know that really pisses some musicians off, but not mature intelligent ones. (The ones who recognize that drowning out the vocal can be their fault.) OK, I get the joke. Got to admit that bad speaker placement can cause their own problems. (And I can easily think of many examples where that is what happened with great equipment and screwed up the coverage.)
My primary gig location is in a school gym, all concrete block walls. Ugghh! I don't get feedback too often, but sometimes it's just on the edge. Of course the acoustics change when the room fills up with noisy parents that talk through performances AND you have to push the levels so their kids can be heard from the stage. :facepalm: Just a real treat. That SM58 wireless mic has pretty good feedback rejection until someone walks in front of a speaker with it. :eek:
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That sounds a bit like it's trying to save energy. Almost sleeping? I've run into that. Is there a performance mode on an ipad? If there were, it would be the one to reach for.
Oh I miss Turbo Mode :laugh: Too bad there's not one on the iPad. :(
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So, I'm fairly new to this iPad mixing thing. I bought the iPad Air 2 (64Gb) just for this, and I've had great success with it so far. No lag at all. Of course, I always make sure I close any unneeded apps running in the background. It's been wonderful so far.
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You don't need a loud band to have feedback issues. I do lots of acoustic instruments, miced with condensers, who don't play loud and want monitors, put that in a noisy bar and feedback is never too far away....
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Acoustic instruments in their own monitors? Generally stupid. I've heard of drummers needing themselves in the monitors. Gotta ask yourself why? I like the thought of sending the drums back to the drum monitor with some delay to discourage that stupidity.
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Acoustic instruments in their own monitors? Generally stupid. I've heard of drummers needing themselves in the monitors. Gotta ask yourself why? I like the thought of sending the drums back to the drum monitor with some delay to discourage that stupidity.
Poor drummers :)
I don't mind giving them some kick as this seems to get lost in a loud stage (after all it projects forward and away from the drummer) - but snare is just crazy!
I am with Wynn on trying to keep the stage volume down but few bands seem to be able to do so. Does't seem to have much to do with intelligence or maturity - some guys just never get that it can sound great without being loud. And there are even some that do get it, but just can't make it happen.
It such an interesting topic.
Cheers
Cheers
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Acoustic instruments in their own monitors? Generally stupid. I've heard of drummers needing themselves in the monitors. Gotta ask yourself why? I like the thought of sending the drums back to the drum monitor with some delay to discourage that stupidity.
Week to week, for 20 years, dual mixes of FOH & foldback stage monitors of live horns, sax, trumpet, t-bone, flute, along with percussion, congas, bongos, timbale, and yes those `stupid' drummers. Last I checked, those count as acoustic instruments.
Why? Because that is what the job requires. Period. And to much satisfaction for the musos. It would seem we come from different experiences.
I generally have great respect and admiration for the musos, artists, and performers I have worked with and for over the years. Some I can & have referred to as touched, characters, divas and a PITA at times, but to call them stupid for wanting to hear themselves in a foldback because they play an `acoustic', never.
Boy, did this go off the rails to the OP topic. :facepalm:
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Acoustic instruments in their own monitors? Generally stupid. I've heard of drummers needing themselves in the monitors. Gotta ask yourself why? I like the thought of sending the drums back to the drum monitor with some delay to discourage that stupidity.
28 years in the live music industry, and well over 1000+ gigs, and every drummer wanted themselves in the monitor.
Normal. Well at least in my part of the world/live music industry. Never a problem :)
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I glad Wyndd doesn't do our sound, wouldn't be a popular man.
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A drummer who needs drums in his monitor wedge (apart from, maybe, a little kick) is a total anachronism dating back to the days of three story guitar amplifiers. I can't think of a situation these days where a drummer needs drums in his wedge. For many of the gigs the DL1608 is aimed at the problem is keeping the drums from being too loud acoustically and they often don't need to be in the FOH, never mind the monitors, drums are LOUD. If the drummers needs drums in his wedge THE GUITARS ARE TOO LOUD! >:D
Now acoustic guitars are another matter, I'd always put them in them wedges, even for a solo singer/guitarist
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Actually as a drummer I have as little as possible in my monitor but on a big festival stage sometimes you need some snare or you're going to hurt your wrist. Always nice to have some kick...
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Accepted, sometimes on huge stage, but that's not exactly the DL1608's natural habitit (and the guitars are still too loud :lol:). I remain to be convinced about the snare though, if my drummer's snare can register 100dB at the mix position I dread to think what it is when it reaches his ears.
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If you have to be loud to sound good, you probably aren't very good. If you are good, you should sound good at jukebox levels too.
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Here in France festival means more than one band outside so not so grand but often on big stages in town centre car parks. In that situation everybody is going to need monitors and the drummer's going to need a little bit of snare. Also I don't know what parallel universe some of you guys live in but the majority of electric guitarists have always played too loud on stage in the one I live in and getting them to turn down always seems to provoke a fit of the sulks and they just turn back up again anyway. I'm mostly involved in acoustic stuff these days thankfully and mostly play with brushes myself so no 100db snares from me. In the two years I've been using the DL I've done a lot of big shows and there's not a lot of bands that won't fit onto 16 channels. I think I only got the big desk and multicore out three times last year!
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The snare is less than 4 feet away from the drummers head. How on earth can they not hear that? (Without running it through the PA.) Large stages with the band spread out? Yea, they will need monitors, but the drummer should have an easier time hearing himself with everyone else pulled away. On the other hand, it's always been recommended that if the band is normally packed tight when playing, they should also pack tight especially on a large stage so what they hear is closer to normal.
At one outdoor gig where I was playing keys, the drummer's monitor was aimed my direction and the kick was so loud (outdoors) at 12 feet, that I asked the monitor engineer to do something. It was totally drowning out my monitor that was a mere 5 feet from my head. (And no, I didn't want my monitor turned up. It was really loud enough and the drummer normally played without a monitor. It was all the engineers fault. There was no call for that much monitor from any point onstage.)
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Of course I don't mean silly loud but that's not possible anyway with say a violin with a condenser mic but he's still going to need to hear himself. It's amazing how little you can hear sometimes on stage outdoors especially with city noise and of course the hundreds of thousands of adoring spectators screaming :lol: By my calculations a drummer would need to be around 12 feet tall to get 4 feet away from his snare so I wouldn't pick a fight with him. :)
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No normal traffic noise will prevent a violinist from hearing his instrument. A stupid loud guitar, drums, or horns aimed at their ears will. Currently playing bass for a musical with flute, violin viola cello guitar drums, piano. In the orchestra pit, there are some minor hearing issues across, but we've been rehearsing without any PA support. (I've been bringing a small bass amp. The other bassist has been bringing a 1000 watt ampeg, but he's been playing at reasonable levels. Volume controls go two ways for a reason.)
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And so, back at the ranch. Who might trading up for a spiffy newer iPad Air 2 based on the OP initial post experiences ?
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And so, back at the ranch. Who might trading up for a spiffy newer iPad Air 2 based on the OP initial post experiences ?
I recently upgraded my ageing iPad 3 which had done constant 10 hour days since new which was a cuppla weeks after release.
It was time for an upgrade anyway and I had the cash burning a hole in my pocket so iPad Air 2 it is.
Awesome fast bit of kit. Love it!! :)
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I'll probably update, but might just wait until the next generation is out. The EQ lag doesn't seem bad enough for me to worry about.
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Acoustic guitar is completely inaudible against a drummer and bass in a folk/rock band - definitely needs to be in the monitor of the player! In my fairly tame R&B band the sax players can't hear their instruments either. Even a trumpet player who you probably don't need in the PA needs to be in his monitor. In any case most horn players want reverb in their monitors - and even if the dry signal isn't in the PA the reverb needs to be there also. Sure wish the DL's allowed per-channel selection of pre/post on the 'verb sends :( .
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OK, I will admit that Acoustic guitar gets smothered pretty easily. (Pity, I really like the sound.) Now if you only fed the few instruments that really needed to be in the monitors and backed them all off, feedback would probably vanish. (And the bands would quit chasing people out of the club. And the FOH engineer would have a much easier time.)
Played a club with their own PA and engineer. Overall stage volume dropped 10 db and a fan that always came with the band said it was like hearing the band for the very first time and he could hear people talking two tables away. It was the best I've ever heard someone else run a board. (Stu at Q's pub in Lakewood.)
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+1, quieter is almost always better if you actually want to listen to the music. :)
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I love intense music. I never confuse intense with LOUD.
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I do sound for a lot of bands mainly in bars and clubs with a couple of hundred people max. I guess this is the lower end of the gene pool and I notice two main things - most play too loud and too fast.
Bands that can control and balance their volume are such a pleasure. Fortunately I have a few regulars that fit into this category but even these struggle to keep control in venues that are just not set up for live sound.
Put a drum kit in a room with hard floors and lots of hard reflective surfaces and its always going to be a nightmare. Funny that these venues often hire loud rock bands and then complain they are too loud!
I do one such venue and when the licensee complains to me I actually turn off the front of house to demonstrate how much spill is coming of the glass and hard wooden walls that surround the stage. Its amazing how loud it is even with the FOH off. I am trying to convince him to at least put some carpet down and some thick curtains but he just won't do it!
On another note I think some musicians really just can't tell when they are too loud while other simply just don't care (or I can't get my sound unless its loud!).
We are getting further off topic but I am finding it of great interest.
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Most of my gigs are in the 50-200 punters range too, and I'm doing more acoustic based stuff than rock bands these days (which suits me). As you say, many semi-pro muso's can't control their stage volume and in smaller venues that can make the sound engineer's job impossible. Add in crap venue acoustics and you have a recipe for disaster.
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Put a drum kit in a room with hard floors and lots of hard reflective surfaces and its always going to be a nightmare.
Absolutely not true, a real drummer can play softly enough to rehearse in an apartment - been there, done that :) .On another note I think some musicians really just can't tell when they are too loud while other simply just don't care (or I can't get my sound unless its loud!).
More like "don't care". Unfortunately if you're doing general providing you'll either deal with LOTS of them arsehats or not work a lot - I choose the latter. I was providing for a 7 piece horn band last night with just my 10" mains (no subs) and a pair of 10" side fills for monitoring - and I still had four mics on the drummer with his two toms and the kick in them mains with headroom to spare. The mic on the snare/HH and two horns were just run into the 'verb with no "dry" in the mains - but the drummer's vocal mic picks up a bit of snare anyways...
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Great term. "Real Drummer". Guess I've only known a handful of real drummers in my life and all of them have been a pleasure to work with. My thought has been if the music sounds good on a jukebox, then good musicians can also sound good at that level. I have a friend who now lives in Dallas/Ft Worth who I've never seen go to brushes for low volume. He's about as great a low volume drummer as I've ever heard. (And a great guy to work with. Wish he was still in Denver.) Sticks down to about 60 db and he is so in the pocket. Any of you looking for those skills in Dallas can shoot me a PM and I'll gladly pass it on.
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Kinda funny, I picked up a power soak for one of my guitarists a couple weeks back. While I think he'll eventually buy it from me it's the best investment in band equipment ever IMO ;D . I'm able to comfortably play through a 30w tube bass amp (Ashdown CTM-30) now :) .
These are a great deal, they use 100w L-Pads (good for a 50w guitar amp) with a HF bleed cap - inexpensive, well made, and sound great!
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=carlscustomguitar&_nkw=soak
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Had a former guitarist who used one. Yes they do sound good. (And he's turned into an alcoholic. Pity, I enjoyed working with him, but those days are over.)
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Put a drum kit in a room with hard floors and lots of hard reflective surfaces and its always going to be a nightmare.
Absolutely not true, a real drummer can play softly enough to rehearse in an apartment - been there, done that :) .On another note I think some musicians really just can't tell when they are too loud while other simply just don't care (or I can't get my sound unless its loud!).
More like "don't care". Unfortunately if you're doing general providing you'll either deal with LOTS of them arsehats or not work a lot - I choose the latter. I was providing for a 7 piece horn band last night with just my 10" mains (no subs) and a pair of 10" side fills for monitoring - and I still had four mics on the drummer with his two toms and the kick in them mains with headroom to spare. The mic on the snare/HH and two horns were just run into the 'verb with no "dry" in the mains - but the drummer's vocal mic picks up a bit of snare anyways...
Point taken about real drummers. One very good one that I occassionaly work with, has used an electronic kit for as long as I can remember. Man does that make life easier for the sound guy! And yeah, he would rather use one of his many acoustic kits but he is using the electronic kit for the sake of keeping down the overall sound of the band.
THere's a guitarist in another band I (and the rest of the band) have a constant struggle with regarding volume. At a recent gig we set up his amp elevated and angled at his ears - half way through the first set he angled it away from him and during the break he put it back on the floor. He said he didn't like the guitar sound directly from his amp! :facepalm:
Cheers
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And I can never understand why the guitarist just turned his amp down. You can always throw a mic on the amp and few mixers don't have an extra input available. I'm like you. Just want the guitarist to back off by hearing his amp much better.
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+1, WTF did he think the audience were hearing?
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I have seen guitarists think that the audience can't hear them well enough. All it takes is for guitarist's guitar playing friend who is used to hearing more guitar to tell him that he can't hear the guitar in the audience. That can screw a guitarist for life. (And the mix might have been perfect before he mentioned it to his friend.) This is where a sound engineer can make a serious difference, but the band has to trust him.
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+1, WTF did he think the audience were hearing?
In this case the audience (and unfortunately the bar staff) were in the direct line of fire and were coping an ear shattering beam of trebley guitar noise.
I guess those of us that do sound can appreciate how different a guitar can sound out front compared to the players position. I encourage them to get a long lead or a wireless and listen out front.
Cheers
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Exactly my point, if he hated that sound why on earth did he think the audience should be subjected to it? Tell him the correct answer is to get a sound you like when you can hear your amp and you (the soundie) will stick a mic on his speaker and ensure the audience get to hear the same 'beautiful' sound 8)
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Boy, talk about a topic getting derailed. ;) That’s okay though, this stuff is even more interesting. :thu: On that note (pun intended) I remember playing in stage bands in my college days and the conductor telling us that if you couldn’t hear the player/instruments beside you, you were playing too loud. Non of the sections were ever mic'd during concerts including the drums.
But the same rule really should apply today, I think.
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If I'm playing electric guitar I much prefer to have just my vocal my monitor, spill from the other singers monitors is enough to balance and pitch from. Acoustic stuff then I have some guitars in the monitor as well.
This is indeed a well derailed but evolving and, as KM, says interesting thread. Thumbs up for "topic creep" :thu:
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Thats one reason I love low volume bands. Besides not having to turn my hearing aids off, I can hear everything on a small stage setup. You don't need to run just about anything through monitors. (I've setup an IEM with my hearing aid frequency boost. Haven't used it out yet.) In my one group that seems stuck in the garage, we don't use monitors at all. Just FOH in the backline and I've walked in front of one of the satellite speakers wearing a live headset mic without any feedback. (About 2 feet away.) Life is so good at these levels. (And really, I've got two more PA systems that can be used to run the sound louder out front if it is really needed.) None of this stuff is concert level equipment, but while I do outdoor gigs, nothing has required more coverage than 5000 people on a flat field. That was general PA for a First Nations group. Those people know how to bring a crowd! (Great speeches too.) For music it's usually a patio or on occasion the Greek Theater in Civic Center Park. (125' across with elevated stage.) I can get around 90 dbc on the far side. (That really is enough.) OK done ranting.