Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Wynnd on December 20, 2013, 02:43:31 AM
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Thinking about wired IEM to deal with insane stage volume. Is the Aux compressor enough to protect my hearing from transients? Anybody doing this?
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Thinking about wired IEM to deal with insane stage volume. Is the Aux compressor enough to protect my hearing from transients?
If you trust your hearing to the Mackie firmware and all the hardware between it and your earbuds (and set it properly), sure. OTOH it's kinda reassuring to have the limiter be hardware right in the bodypack :) . I have a Galaxy AS900 wireless which only costs about $175 if you shop around.
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That's a price that might be doable, when someone in the house finds another day job. (Right now house income is mostly the band and in Denver, that's generally not making a living. On the other hand, the band that doesn't have a NYE gig has 5 gigs in the the first two weeks of next year. Thats a pace that helps a lot.) Got a pretty good self made resume'. Maybe I just think so. We shall see.
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I use the aux's every gig for IEM mix. It works excellent, but I don't know the models of IEM their using.
I set my vocal compression lightly, with a ratio from 2:1 to 3:1 and 3-6 db gain reduction (when activated).
There's also the compressor on the aux output, but i don't use it.
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Thinking about wired IEM to deal with insane stage volume. Is the Aux compressor enough to protect my hearing from transients?
If you trust your hearing to the Mackie firmware and all the hardware between it and your earbuds (and set it properly), sure. OTOH it's kinda reassuring to have the limiter be hardware right in the bodypack :) . I have a Galaxy AS900 wireless which only costs about $175 if you shop around.
At this point in time with V2 quirks I certainly wouldn't go there. How's that AS900 working out for you? With my luck I would end up with something on that single frequency and be SOL. I am a firm believer in IEM's or nothing since those nasty laws of physics always find a way to screw things up especially with stage monitors.
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I use the aux's every gig for IEM mix. It works excellent, but I don't know the models of IEM their using.
I set my vocal compression lightly, with a ratio from 2:1 to 3:1 and 3-6 db gain reduction (when activated).
There's also the compressor on the aux output, but i don't use it.
That's the one (aux out) you should setup as a limiter at max ratio.
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Thinking about wired IEM to deal with insane stage volume. Is the Aux compressor enough to protect my hearing from transients?
If you trust your hearing to the Mackie firmware and all the hardware between it and your earbuds (and set it properly), sure. OTOH it's kinda reassuring to have the limiter be hardware right in the bodypack :) . I have a Galaxy AS900 wireless which only costs about $175 if you shop around.
At this point in time with V2 quirks I certainly wouldn't go there. How's that AS900 working out for you? With my luck I would end up with something on that single frequency and be SOL. I am a firm believer in IEM's or nothing since those nasty laws of physics always find a way to screw things up especially with stage monitors.
A agree! Looking to do the same. Just invested in the Shure PSM200. They are a bit pricy, but I chose Shure over the Galaxy. Reviews were mixed on the Galaxy. You can have up to 4 body pack receivers per transmitter. As far as any musicians that don't need to move around on stage (i.e. drummer, keyboard and maybe bass player), I would just run a headphone amp wired. No sense in spending the extra $$ if they don't require wireless.
Shared a story with Bill (WK154) regarding a recent band (Gary Senise's "Lt. Dan Band") who played in Temecula a month ago. A friend who is very critical when it comes to sound (although not technical) commended them on how clear the vocals were how they stood out. I pointed out to her that "You don't see any stage monitors, do you?". In addition to having a good sound person, no stage monitors, plexiglass in front of the drummer and of course the proper equipment, makes for a very pristine outcome.
The way musicians want the monitors cranked up on stage, sure wouldn't do that with IEM's unless they wanted to go deaf very fast! :lol:
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How's that AS900 working out for you? With my luck I would end up with something on that single frequency and be SOL.
I've only had interference with one out of the four I have and that was in NYC (I loaned them to a friend). OTOH they are in the 600Mhz band so will be banned in 2015 :( - but will probably still work for quite a while if you aren't a fixed install and don't mind running outlaw ;) .
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Just invested in the Shure PSM200. They are a bit pricy, but I chose Shure over the Galaxy. Reviews were mixed on the Galaxy. You can have up to 4 body pack receivers per transmitter.
You can have thousands of receivers per transmitter if you want - what makes you believe otherwise? As far as any musicians that don't need to move around on stage (i.e. drummer, keyboard and maybe bass player), I would just run a headphone amp wired. No sense in spending the extra $$ if they don't require wireless.
You kinda need the bodypacks for their limiters - unless they aren't your ears and you don't care if they get permanent hearing damage from an audio "accident" :( . There are some wired bodypacks available but they cost as much as the AS900...
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I agree! Looking to do the same. Just invested in the Shure PSM200. They are a bit pricy, but I chose Shure over the Galaxy. Reviews were mixed on the Galaxy. You can have up to 4 body pack receivers per transmitter. As far as any musicians that don't need to move around on stage (i.e. drummer, keyboard and maybe bass player), I would just run a headphone amp wired. No sense in spending the extra $$ if they don't require wireless.
Shared a story with Bill (WK154) regarding a recent band (Gary Senise's "Lt. Dan Band") who played in Temecula a month ago. A friend who is very critical when it comes to sound (although not technical) commended them on how clear the vocals were how they stood out. I pointed out to her that "You don't see any stage monitors, do you?". In addition to having a good sound person, no stage monitors, plexiglass in front of the drummer and of course the proper equipment, makes for a very pristine outcome.
The way musicians want the monitors cranked up on stage, sure wouldn't do that with IEM's unless they wanted to go deaf very fast! :lol:
Can't leave you alone for a couple of day's and you're out spending $ like it was Christmas. I was going to suggest that you look at the Beh P16i/P16m setup wired for most of you since you have the Focusrite dual. Just need to know if you can run them separately via two USB's for recording to the PC freeing up the ADAT's. Manual as usual is no help. This would give you up to 6 Vox initially.
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How's that AS900 working out for you? With my luck I would end up with something on that single frequency and be SOL.
I've only had interference with one out of the four I have and that was in NYC (I loaned them to a friend). OTOH they are in the 600Mhz band so will be banned in 2015 :( - but will probably still work for quite a while if you aren't a fixed install and don't mind running outlaw ;) .
Gee ask me about my AKG fixed frequency wireless that I still use. The Beltway Bandits don't go out looking for you they're all Lawyers. :police:
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I agree! Looking to do the same. Just invested in the Shure PSM200. They are a bit pricy, but I chose Shure over the Galaxy. Reviews were mixed on the Galaxy. You can have up to 4 body pack receivers per transmitter. As far as any musicians that don't need to move around on stage (i.e. drummer, keyboard and maybe bass player), I would just run a headphone amp wired. No sense in spending the extra $$ if they don't require wireless.
Shared a story with Bill (WK154) regarding a recent band (Gary Senise's "Lt. Dan Band") who played in Temecula a month ago. A friend who is very critical when it comes to sound (although not technical) commended them on how clear the vocals were how they stood out. I pointed out to her that "You don't see any stage monitors, do you?". In addition to having a good sound person, no stage monitors, plexiglass in front of the drummer and of course the proper equipment, makes for a very pristine outcome.
The way musicians want the monitors cranked up on stage, sure wouldn't do that with IEM's unless they wanted to go deaf very fast! :lol:
Can't leave you alone for a couple of day's and you're out spending $ like it was Christmas. I was going to suggest that you look at the Beh P16i/P16m setup wired for most of you since you have the Focusrite dual. Just need to know if you can run them separately via two USB's for recording to the PC freeing up the ADAT's. Manual as usual is no help. This would give you up to 6 Vox initially.
Actually had the PSM 200 at the Fazeli gig. Just didn't hook it up. Over kill for the trio :D
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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I bet Kelly would have traded the K12 for a Shure in a heartbeat. The K12 is a little extreme for an in-ear even for a bass but I know the Shure has Kepi written all over it.
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I use the aux's every gig for IEM mix. It works excellent, but I don't know the models of IEM their using.
I set my vocal compression lightly, with a ratio from 2:1 to 3:1 and 3-6 db gain reduction (when activated).
There's also the compressor on the aux output, but i don't use it.
that's exactly backwards!
you don't want to compress the individual vocals in their monitors, that's what leads to over-singing and blown-out voices. that's what the big hullabaloo over V2.0 was about, the option to take that channel comp off the auxes.
you do want to use the aux comp, set up more like a limiter; fastest attack, very high ratio (to where the top of the green "mountain" graph is pretty much chopped off flat), and the threshold is just high enough that it doesn't get reached with normal levels.
that way, there's no squash in the ears with normal use (preserving the singer's dynamics and their voices) but any "accidents" will hit the threshold limit and not blow anybody up.
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I am also getting IEMs for the band. But I'm a bit of a newbie with regards to sound engineering. Where are the gate and compressor for the auxes on the DL? All I see is the GEQ for the aux out. So in order to protect the musicians' ears do you have to so the DSP on each channel or am I missing something on the DL's aux channel? Thanks.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
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Sorry guys. Just read the owner's manual and found the small grey swipe area on the aux EQ page. Can someone knowledgable about these settings give me a reasonable setting so nobody in the band loses their hearing with the IEMs? This would be extremely helpful as I'm not a real sound engineer. I obviously concerned with feedback or other "spikes" in sound level going into their IEMs via the aux channel and would like it "limited" somehow to protect their hearing. Comments from any experts is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
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I use the aux's every gig for IEM mix. It works excellent, but I don't know the models of IEM their using.
I set my vocal compression lightly, with a ratio from 2:1 to 3:1 and 3-6 db gain reduction (when activated).
There's also the compressor on the aux output, but i don't use it.
that's exactly backwards!
you don't want to compress the individual vocals in their monitors, that's what leads to over-singing and blown-out voices. that's what the big hullabaloo over V2.0 was about, the option to take that channel comp off the auxes.
you do want to use the aux comp, set up more like a limiter; fastest attack, very high ratio (to where the top of the green "mountain" graph is pretty much chopped off flat), and the threshold is just high enough that it doesn't get reached with normal levels.
that way, there's no squash in the ears with normal use (preserving the singer's dynamics and their voices) but any "accidents" will hit the threshold limit and not blow anybody up.
Being fairly new to IEM's, I have not yet had any issues with over-singing or blown out voices. My singers are pro's, and sing at a very even level each night, so we've never had a problem. By using the channel compressors lightly, they hear what I hear. I had not thought about putting a limiter on the aux out's, but that is an excellent idea. I've never needed it for live monitors, so I've just mixed IEM's the same. I'll give it a try at the next gig.
Regarding pre/post DSP, I've completely changed my thinking on this, as a result of owning this board. I've learned that if I make EQ adjustments to a particular channel, that needs to be heard in the monitor as well. You can't fix individual channels with the aux 31 band EQ, so at this point I prefer the channel EQ to be heard in the IEM. I'm using the channel comp's very lightly, and my band loves the IEM's, so I must be doing something right! (I'm going to try the aux limiters at the next gig)
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Assuming you use Aux's 1-6 for your IEM's set the output compressor for the following.
Hard Knee, Threshold around -1dB FS, Ratio at infinity (far right), Attack at .1ms (far left), release 3 min (far right), gain at 0dB (far left). That should stop any unwanted event to go past your max settings on Aux's. The DL right now is NOT RELIABLE and until it is fixed by Mackie I would recommend NOT using the DL period. Most wireless IEM have their own protection. It's wired that are ? limiters or not.
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Thanks so much for the reply regarding the limiter settings. I will definitely use those.
But then you go on to say the DL is not reliable for this usage. Are you saying that the aux out limiters may not work to protect a musician with IEMs? Why is that?
Also, I didn't know the IEMs could have their own limiter. I'll have to look into that.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
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Simply the DL as a mixer can let go with white noise and other problems at any time. Three or more threads on this forum alone describe this problem. Their Facebook account has many more users with this and they are treating it rather matter of fact. Mackie needs to fix the code ASAP to make this mixer reliable again. When this happens they may get some credibility back as a equipment supplier. I wouldn't want to be potentially risking someone's hearing with a known defective kit. That's what Law Suits are made off.
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All outputs have Compression. Go to the aux or LR EQ and then flick the screen up or down to get to the compressor. If you didn't know that, then you probably haven't seen the compressor and gate on each of the individual channels where you also have a screen for the reverb and delay. Works exactly the same way there. The reason there are no gates on the aux outputs, is probably because I can't think of any circumstances where you would use that. Gates are an individual channel issue only. It's not as quick as on an analog board, but there is a lot of depth to this board. (Can be a bit clumsy, but these are things that usually aren't changed during a show.)
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Thanks so much for the reply regarding the limiter settings. I will definitely use those.
But then you go on to say the DL is not reliable for this usage. Are you saying that the aux out limiters may not work to protect a musician with IEMs? Why is that?
Also, I didn't know the IEMs could have their own limiter. I'll have to look into that.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
Au contraire Brian,
Lots of other people (myself included) have never had any "white noise" issues or any problems with the DL that would deem it unreliable.
We use a mixture of sidefills and Sennheiser IEMs and have never had a "near deaf experience" ;D
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Thanks so much for the reply regarding the limiter settings. I will definitely use those.
But then you go on to say the DL is not reliable for this usage. Are you saying that the aux out limiters may not work to protect a musician with IEMs? Why is that?
Also, I didn't know the IEMs could have their own limiter. I'll have to look into that.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
I can tell you, my Shure IEM's do. Here is an page out of the manual:
LIM LED
The P2R Receiver has a non–defeatable (constantly active) limiter that automatically activates
if the receiver output level exceeds a certain volume, which is calibrated specifically for the
Shure earphones. The LIM LED on the top of the unit lights up when the limiter is on. If the
LIM LED blinks occasionally, turn down the volume of the receiver.* If the LED is on and you
haven’t reached a high enough listening level, try re-inserting the earphones for a better seal,
or adjust the mix that is being sent to the receiver to include only the most essential inputs.**
* When the LED is on, the volume will not increase.
**The limiter is designed to work best with the Shure earphones. Using the P2R with other Shure earphones or earphones
made by other manufacturers, can result in higher limited volume levels
I don't know about other manufacturers though.
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Thanks so much for the reply regarding the limiter settings. I will definitely use those.
But then you go on to say the DL is not reliable for this usage. Are you saying that the aux out limiters may not work to protect a musician with IEMs? Why is that?
Also, I didn't know the IEMs could have their own limiter. I'll have to look into that.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
Au contraire Brian,
Lots of other people (myself included) have never had any "white noise" issues or any problems with the DL that would deem it unreliable.
We use a mixture of sidefills and Sennheiser IEMs and have never had a "near deaf experience" ;D
You'd have a ball in Monte Carlo or Vegas (snake-eyes or hit me again). Consider yourself as lucky. The Senn's have a limiter.
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Thanks so much for the reply regarding the limiter settings. I will definitely use those.
But then you go on to say the DL is not reliable for this usage. Are you saying that the aux out limiters may not work to protect a musician with IEMs? Why is that?
Also, I didn't know the IEMs could have their own limiter. I'll have to look into that.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
Au contraire Brian,
Lots of other people (myself included) have never had any "white noise" issues or any problems with the DL that would deem it unreliable.
We use a mixture of sidefills and Sennheiser IEMs and have never had a "near deaf experience" ;D
I think the higher quality IEMs have the protection (i.e. limiters) needed like the Sennheiser / Shure. Man, you must have lots of $$ :lol:. Sennheiser's aren't cheap (you get what you pay for). Curious on what you use for sidefills.
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Thanks so much for the reply regarding the limiter settings. I will definitely use those.
But then you go on to say the DL is not reliable for this usage. Are you saying that the aux out limiters may not work to protect a musician with IEMs? Why is that?
Also, I didn't know the IEMs could have their own limiter. I'll have to look into that.
Brian
DL1608, Bose L1S with B2 Bass Module, iPad 3
Au contraire Brian,
Lots of other people (myself included) have never had any "white noise" issues or any problems with the DL that would deem it unreliable.
We use a mixture of sidefills and Sennheiser IEMs and have never had a "near deaf experience" ;D
I think the higher quality IEMs have the protection (i.e. limiters) needed like the Sennheiser / Shure. Man, you must have lots of $$ :lol:. Sennheiser's aren't cheap (you get what you pay for). Curious on what you use for sidefills.
We use a mixture depending on stage size. Mostly 12"+1" boxes with 15" sub on bigger stages - specifically Martin F12+ & S15 or Db Technologies Opera.
I tend to overspend on the band gear, that's why I'll never be rich! Made a million, spent a million and a half ;)
BTW: Happy Christmas to you all and a prosperous 2014 :)
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We have the Bose L1 Compacts for trio and smaller and I sometimes use those as side-fills. Works really good. Yeah, I make all my money in IT work and spend it on music equipment. I'm just one of those techno-junkies who has to have the latest and greatest. WK154 (Bill) and his wife came to one of our gigs last week and Kepi got to try the Heil PR35 mic. Tried to stick it in my bag but Bill was too quick :lol:. Between IEM's, mics and everything else, I'll be broke before 2014 starts :laugh:. Merry Christmas to all of you on the forum and YES, a prosperous 2014!!
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Hey Gio before you go and spend $$ I have 79 more to try out. After the Holidays I'll run some ideas past you that may be a better fit for Kepi and the group. So save some $ for the after Christmas sales. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.
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AFAIK all wireless IEM systems have limiters - even the cheap ones. And as for the white noise "issue" I believe that only affects the iPad playback channel so as long as you don't have that in your IEMs you shouldn't have an issue - plus a limiter set on the aux output should limit any event including that one. OTOH a problem after the limiter (bad cord, headphone amp accidentally turned up, etc) can still blow out your ears - having the limiter right in the bodypack that the earbuds plug into minimizes the chances of a catastrophic event.
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AFAIK all wireless IEM systems have limiters - even the cheap ones. And as for the white noise "issue" I believe that only affects the iPad playback channel so as long as you don't have that in your IEMs you shouldn't have an issue - plus a limiter set on the aux output should limit any event including that one. OTOH a problem after the limiter (bad cord, headphone amp accidentally turned up, etc) can still blow out your ears - having the limiter right in the bodypack that the earbuds plug into minimizes the chances of a catastrophic event.
AFAIK your AS900's don't have limiters. From AS1000 on up they mention it. I never asked if the white noise also ended up in Aux's or just L/R. The only way I would presently operate the DL would be through WiFi and playback thru inputs 15, 16 or the like. Some users have had problems without playback or recording. But then who knows? If this were your only mixer I could understand your dilemma. I would be pounding on Mackie's door every 5 minutes till it gets fixed.
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AFAIK your AS900's don't have limiters.
"The AS-900R (receiver) features an 80mw headphone amplifier with a standard 3.5mm (1/8") headphone output. The AS-900R is sure to be plenty loud for any environment. The receiver has a built in limiter."
http://galaxyaudio.com/pdfs/AS-900_cut_sheet.pdf
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Yep stand corrected. I just looked at their users manual and general adv. You'd think they would list it in their Adv. or the specs. I guess words cost $$.
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Being fairly new to IEM's, I have not yet had any issues with over-singing or blown out voices. My singers are pro's, and sing at a very even level each night, so we've never had a problem. By using the channel compressors lightly, they hear what I hear. I had not thought about putting a limiter on the aux out's, but that is an excellent idea. I've never needed it for live monitors, so I've just mixed IEM's the same. I'll give it a try at the next gig.
Regarding pre/post DSP, I've completely changed my thinking on this, as a result of owning this board. I've learned that if I make EQ adjustments to a particular channel, that needs to be heard in the monitor as well. You can't fix individual channels with the aux 31 band EQ, so at this point I prefer the channel EQ to be heard in the IEM. I'm using the channel comp's very lightly, and my band loves the IEM's, so I must be doing something right! (I'm going to try the aux limiters at the next gig)
i dunno, it's pretty much live sound 101 that compressing vocals in monitors is Not Done.
i suppose that if this isn't a loud rock band, and if the compressing is set such that it's not even engaging half the time, then it's no big deal. still, you might try setting it "pre-DSP" to see if the singers notice a difference. the "tell" will be if they ask you to back the vocals down a little or if they seem to be singing softer or further away from the mic, this means they're now hearing themselves better.
same with EQ, if the channel EQ is pretty much set then left alone, then it's OK if it shows up in the monitors too. otherwise, tweaking it mid-song is a good way to freak out your singers. also, they shouldn't need much corrective channel EQ in the ears, that's mostly a "speaker box in the room" issue.
finally, i suspect most hardware IEM limiters are set so that when they kick in you're already pretty goddamn loud.
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Your reference to industry standard typically applies to live wedges not to IEMs. Industry standard does typically put compression on IEMs. I used to run a presonus board. Presonus even adds this concept in their owners manual.
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Compression in monitors is a no go, but with IEMs? Sure, why not? Feedback is the only reason for not using them in monitors.
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I'm now considering the GA AS-1100 or AS-1500. Since the Shure is "Mono" only, I can only use the 1:~ (many) 1-Aux mix to many body-packs. I know with the AS-1500, you have "Mixed Mono" mode where I can take 2 AUX sends from the DL and the band member can determine which mix he/she wants to hear. Not sure about the AS-1100 or AS-900 (one that RR owns). This way I can leverage how many transmitters I need to buy. I can use AUX 1-4 with 2 Transmitters and have a lot of choices on who gets what mix. RR, really curious on the quality and durability of Galaxy Audio since you already own one. I can get the AS-1500 at GC for the price I paid for the Shure PSM 200.
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Compression in monitors is a no go, but with IEMs? Sure, why not? Feedback is the only reason for not using them in monitors.
Not true. The general goal of monitors for vocalists is to give an accurate representation of what their voice is doing in relation to the microphone, including dynamics. If you compress a monitor mix regardless of whether it's a wedge or IEMs, you're altering what dynamics the vocalist hears. This can be detrimental as the harder a vocalist pushes their voice, the more the compressor will squash the level they hear which can lead to several issues including damaged vocal cords and "over-singing." So unless a vocalist specifically wants compression in their mix, it should be avoided so they hear what they're really doing instead of a more "produced" sound.
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I agree with Greg C. And as to the durability of the AS-900, they seem as well built as any to me. Any of the transmitters will sound better and get better range in true mono than with the stereo transmission needed to run two channels on one transmitter - I'd not go the "dual mono" route if you can avoid it.
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My only neg on the AS-900 is single freq. The AS-1500 is being discontinued, so that only leaves the AS-1100 or 1800. I think the 1800 is overkill for my needs. I also have a Behringer Powerplay HA4700 which I want to utilize for stationary players (i.e. Drummer, Bassist, Keyboardist). Obviously the goal here is to keep the stage and noise floor at a minimum and also having more real estate by elimination of floor monitors. Everyone on this forum has a different configuration based who they run sound for (i.e. choir, solo, 3-4 piece band, etc.). So here is my 5-piece configuration: Lead Vocalist, Guitarist, Bassist, Keyboardist (dual) and Drummer. In addition to Kepi as the lead vocalist, our guitarist, bassist and drummer also sing so their are vocal mics present for them as well. BTW, for those who disagree with using the DL AUX compression as "limiters", I have 2 Behringer MDX4600 (4-channel compressor/limiters) that I can utilize for the non-wireless monitors. May have to go to my 10u rack versus 6u. So much for scaling down, but I guess if I don't have to lug the wedges around anymore, so be it :lol:.
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BTW, for those who disagree with using the DL AUX compression as "limiters", I have 2 Behringer MDX4600 (4-channel compressor/limiters) that I can utilize for the non-wireless monitors. May have to go to my 10u rack versus 6u. So much for scaling down, but I guess if I don't have to lug the wedges around anymore, so be it :lol:.
ugh, why? there's no reason the mackie auxes can't just use their own comps set as safety limiters, especially since when run right they'll never get hit. (also, if you really wanted to drag out old-school rack comps, there's no reason you couldn't put that stuff on the wired and wireless IEMs.)
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My only neg on the AS-900 is single freq. The AS-1500 is being discontinued, so that only leaves the AS-1100 or 1800. I think the 1800 is overkill for my needs. I also have a Behringer Powerplay HA4700 which I want to utilize for stationary players (i.e. Drummer, Bassist, Keyboardist). Obviously the goal here is to keep the stage and noise floor at a minimum and also having more real estate by elimination of floor monitors. Everyone on this forum has a different configuration based who they run sound for (i.e. choir, solo, 3-4 piece band, etc.). So here is my 5-piece configuration: Lead Vocalist, Guitarist, Bassist, Keyboardist (dual) and Drummer. In addition to Kepi as the lead vocalist, our guitarist, bassist and drummer also sing so their are vocal mics present for them as well. BTW, for those who disagree with using the DL AUX compression as "limiters", I have 2 Behringer MDX4600 (4-channel compressor/limiters) that I can utilize for the non-wireless monitors. May have to go to my 10u rack versus 6u. So much for scaling down, but I guess if I don't have to lug the wedges around anymore, so be it :lol:.
Here's my thoughts on this. So far everyone is pretty much in one spot for the performance so do you really need wireless freedom? So go wired for now with fewer headaches. The A900 are limited life so the only Galaxy solution is the 1100 or the 1800 in a frequency range of 500-600Mhz. They will likely come up with a new model to fit the new FCC straightjacket. If you go wireless you will need to eventually procure an RF analyzer or go with the high end wireless systems like Shure ULX or Senn 2000 networked and with built in analyzers. Wedges are a big part of stage wash but not the only thing and performers you can't get rid of. So there is the whole other issue of the right mic for the job. Another topic for another time. First rule of audio Less is More.
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If you go wireless you will need to eventually procure an RF analyzer or go with the high end wireless systems like Shure ULX or Senn 2000 networked and with built in analyzers.
why?
my working bar band's been on wireless IEMs for years, and i don't even know what any of that stuff is! the singer and i use older shure PSM400s, and the bass player uses a nicer PSM600 (drummer is on wired IEMs of course). we've never "networked" or "analyzed" anything ???
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If you go wireless you will need to eventually procure an RF analyzer or go with the high end wireless systems like Shure ULX or Senn 2000 networked and with built in analyzers.
why?
my working bar band's been on wireless IEMs for years, and i don't even know what any of that stuff is! the singer and i use older shure PSM400s, and the bass player uses a nicer PSM600 (drummer is on wired IEMs of course). we've never "networked" or "analyzed" anything ???
The FCC is getting ready to sell off more of the wireless spectrum again after a big selloff (the 700MHz) band that went into effect in 2010. Next on the auction block is the 600MHz (608-698) band. The 700MHz (698-806) band is now in use by emergency service in certain locales. If you are caught using them, you can be subject to fines of up to $100k and thrown in jail if interference effects emergency operations. Some of my wireless mics had to be retired as a result already. More will if/when the next auction goes through. So this leaves a lot less "white space" for wireless mics and IEMs to operate in and the need for spectrum analyzers to find a "hole" that's not in use will become a necessarily evil to make sure your shit doesn't cut out mid show. You might want to check your current gear and make sure you're not operating illegally already and also to see if it might become illegal in the next couple of years.
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If you go wireless you will need to eventually procure an RF analyzer...
why?
my working bar band's been on wireless IEMs for years... we've never "networked" or "analyzed" anything ???
The FCC is getting ready to sell off more of the wireless spectrum again after a big selloff...
oh yeah, i guess our wide open wireless frontier is getting all civilized, isn't it? i don't see our 3 little bar band transmitters getting us in trouble, but i do see a day when fire and rescue chatter starts blasting into our IEMs! :o
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If you go wireless you will need to eventually procure an RF analyzer...
why?
my working bar band's been on wireless IEMs for years... we've never "networked" or "analyzed" anything ???
The FCC is getting ready to sell off more of the wireless spectrum again after a big selloff...
oh yeah, i guess our wide open wireless frontier is getting all civilized, isn't it? i don't see our 3 little bar band transmitters getting us in trouble, but i do see a day when fire and rescue chatter starts blasting into our IEMs! :o
Well, I guess we will be the first ones out the door in the event of a fire, eh? :lol:.
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If you go wireless you will need to eventually procure an RF analyzer...
why?
my working bar band's been on wireless IEMs for years... we've never "networked" or "analyzed" anything ???
The FCC is getting ready to sell off more of the wireless spectrum again after a big selloff...
oh yeah, i guess our wide open wireless frontier is getting all civilized, isn't it? i don't see our 3 little bar band transmitters getting us in trouble, but i do see a day when fire and rescue chatter starts blasting into our IEMs! :o
Well, I guess we will be the first ones out the door in the event of a fire, eh? :lol:.
The Village People should be okay with that too :facepalm:
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I've got a config which is working pretty well except for IEM latency.
Aside from mixing bands and self-mixing my acoustic roots band, I've also formed an improvisation-based roots band which uses an array of loop stations and other devices normally used by DJs and EDM acts, plus phones, tablets and even a YouRock Guitar! We use those tools, but we make roots music with them. As with DJs, our sets are continuous, with each "song" segueing to the next. And we self-mix via my DL1608 (no FOH guy).
It's exactly the kind of act which can use the main mix as the dominant sound in the IEMs, with band members able to increase the gain of whatever tool they are using via their personal Aux Sends.
We run the entire config as mono. No stereo at all.
The topology I'm working with now relies on copying the left channel of the LR Main Outs to Channel 1 on the mixer. Headphones can run directly from the Aux Out used by each member. So Channel 1 is off with regard to LR Main, but is sent to each Aux via the Channel 1 fader for each Aux. There's a slight latency, but it's better than I anticipated and works fine at gigs. Doing it like this allows me to insert a limiter over the output of each Aux, but for backup I can also insert a limiter over Channel 1 (provided I dont select pre-DSP for the Aux channels). I also use a single condensor mic in omni mode (012) located to capture the room, which each of us can dial in to taste.
The above works great with wired headphones/earbuds. Sounds superb with Etymotic ER4 earbuds. It's great to have a good feel of what the audience is
hearing, but then be able to tweak our own feeds a bit when needed, knowing it doesnt affect FOH.
I've been playing around with a few different options for low cost wireless IEM, but I've encountered too much latency when it is added to the latency already inherent in the mixer config. I reckon we could handle maybe 5ms - 7ms of additional latency for the wireless IEM transmitter/receiver.
I'm really interested in the cutting edge stuff happening over the last couple of years with WiFi audio streaming and Bluetooth audio streaming. I own two sets of WiDigital AudioLink Wifi audio streaming systems, but I only use them for delay speakers - the latency is over 20ms, which is too long on top of the latency already in my config. But given I often use small delay speakers in the region 7 metres to 15 meters from stage, the AudioLink latency is not a problem in that context.
Anyone here used any of the Bluetooth audio transmitter/receiver sets being spat out like confetti from Shenzhen over the last 9 months?
Any latency numbers?
How about 2.4GHz spectrum "audio over Wifi" devices like the Wi AudioLink?
Thanks!
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Bought the wi audiolink and immediately returned it. Way too much latency. I posted a bad review about it online. Also contacted the company who said they know about their latency issues. Blamed it on digital transmission. They gave me a figure of 28 milliseconds. That's huge. After trying it as an in ear I even tried it with my acoustic guitar. With a guitar latency issues don't affect the ears as much as vocals. And yet even with the guitar there was way too much. Also I didn't get more than 30 ft without dropping signal.
Bluetooth has even more latency. I thought I would try that a while back too. The latency is close to half a second.
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Lots of good info to digest. BT 4.0 is still evolving. Going to wait on IEM buds until the NAMM show. They offer lots of discounts and free fittings.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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Bought the wi audiolink and immediately returned it. Way too much latency. I posted a bad review about it online. Also contacted the company who said they know about their latency issues. Blamed it on digital transmission. They gave me a figure of 28 milliseconds. That's huge. After trying it as an in ear I even tried it with my acoustic guitar. With a guitar latency issues don't affect the ears as much as vocals. And yet even with the guitar there was way too much. Also I didn't get more than 30 ft without dropping signal.
Bluetooth has even more latency. I thought I would try that a while back too. The latency is close to half a second.
+1
Even BT 4.0 hasn't improved too much on the latency front.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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I've got a config which is working pretty well except for IEM latency.
...snip...
The topology I'm working with now relies on copying the left channel of the LR Main Outs to Channel 1 on the mixer. Headphones can run directly from the Aux Out used by each member. So Channel 1 is off with regard to LR Main, but is sent to each Aux via the Channel 1 fader for each Aux. There's a slight latency, but it's better than I anticipated and works fine at gigs. Doing it like this allows me to insert a limiter over the output of each Aux, but for backup I can also insert a limiter over Channel 1 (provided I dont select pre-DSP for the Aux channels). I also use a single condensor mic in omni mode (012) located to capture the room, which each of us can dial in to taste.
The above works great with wired headphones/earbuds. Sounds superb with Etymotic ER4 earbuds. It's great to have a good feel of what the audience is
hearing, but then be able to tweak our own feeds a bit when needed, knowing it doesnt affect FOH.
I've been playing around with a few different options for low cost wireless IEM, but I've encountered too much latency when it is added to the latency already inherent in the mixer config. I reckon we could handle maybe 5ms - 7ms of additional latency for the wireless IEM transmitter/receiver.
...snip...
Thanks!
I'm trying to understand why you are feeding back your main mix to channel 1 just to feed aux outs? Fader cowboy? All you need to do is duplicate the fader positions in the aux channels to be the same as the FOH mix. This approach also gives the individual IEM users the opportunity to change and eliminate channels of no interest to them (create their own mix, change fader positions more Me). You'll also save 1.5 ms delay for the whole process as well which seems to be another concern in IEM's. Regain use of channel 1 for the FOH & aux mixes or use it for your ambiance mic. You have a comp/limiter on each aux out which should be sufficient for IEM protection. Depending on the IEM you may have built in protection there as well. Channel 1 comp/limiter is a waste of time IMHO for backup.
Now for the ambiance mic (audience mic). At 1 ms per foot delay from the sound source how far do you think you can go before it becomes annoying when mixed with the IEM's?. Five feet (5ms) is that where your audience is? Cozy. Plausible if you're recording or the FOH engineer listening solo but not if your the performer live.
Good luck finding latency specs on all but the real high end IEM units. If your using wireless mics that also adds latency to consider.
Read below :)
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I'm trying to understand why you are feeding back your main mix to channel 1 just to feed aux outs? Fader cowboy? All you need to do is duplicate the fader positions in the aux channels to be the same as the FOH mix.
And there's the rub - any time FOH changes, the Aux sends would also need to be adjusted. We prefer to hear the mix in our headphones as delivered to FOH. But as individuals, we occasionally need to boost a channel for monitoring. My method accommodates this and the latency is acceptable. Are you a performing musician working without a mix engineer? If not, I can see why you think what we are doing isnt optimal. But it works well for us and doesnt require an additional mixer - we can do it all with just the DL1608. So KISS has been applied, even though it seems to you that we've complicated something that should be simpler. We can each listen just to the FOH, or we can add a bit extra to monitoring individual channels if/when needed.
Now for the ambiance mic (audience mic). At 1 ms per foot delay from the sound source how far do you think you can go before it becomes annoying when mixed with the IEM's?. Five feet (5ms) is that where your audience is?
The ambience mic is located slightly to the front of where we perform, above the performance table we share. It sounds very similar to the sound when performing without IEMs and eliminates that feeling of being disconnected from the gig. We just dial a bit of it into the Aux sends, in accordance with our individual preferences. Again, it is a KISS solution when working with IEMs.
Good luck finding latency specs on all but the real high end IEM units. If your using wireless mics that also adds latency to consider.
The Line6 wireless products have good latency specs and work well, but we'll probably stick with wire until I swap out the DL1608 and replace it with an X32 rack. Our main goal is to reduce setup clutter by using less long cables, but we perform seated so there's no burning need for mobility. The two biggest problems are mic stands and foldback speakers. We've eliminated the need for foldback speakers and we can get rid of mic stands by using headset mics, so maybe that's what we'll invest in next. Wireless is a nice-to-have but not essential, especially given it means managing additional devices. KISS = wired.
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Fader cowboy?
That's also definitely a factor. I'm a risk management kinda guy....I need the other band members to stay in touch with the FOH and not get lost in their own world, but controlling the FOH is on my shoulders.
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I'm trying to understand why you are feeding back your main mix to channel 1 just to feed aux outs?
Another method we could try which would be better: send the Phones Out from DL1608 to a headphone mixer which can accommodate the main FOH feed plus discrete Aux for each headset. That would eliminate the latency and free up an input channel on the DL1608. Behringer's PowerPlay Pro XL would do that nicely as each channel has Aux input plus main input. Thanks for making me think different :)
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So you want DCA's . It doesn't always follow that FOH and IEM's need to be the same, it's mostly different but that's a personal preference as you stated. The DL's lack of features makes what you're doing a necessity. I'm a mix/mastering engineer, been that for a long time. You'll appreciate the X32 once you switch, I have. Maybe V3 will finally get you what you need virtual DCA groups. I'm not aware of IEM's made by Line6/Yamaha. Their specs leave a lot to be desired. You have an ambiance mic not a audience mic and that works for you. What headset mics are you looking at? Once we run out of airspace courtesy of the FCC we'll migrate to fiber.
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I'm trying to understand why you are feeding back your main mix to channel 1 just to feed aux outs?
Another method we could try which would be better: send the Phones Out from DL1608 to a headphone mixer which can accommodate the main FOH feed plus discrete Aux for each headset. That would eliminate the latency and free up an input channel on the DL1608. Behringer's PowerPlay Pro XL would do that nicely as each channel has Aux input plus main input. Thanks for making me think different :)
Scrap that idea it's been found to be full of surprises and it only gives you 1 IEM mix. Behringer has a personal headphone amp that would be suited for what you're trying to do called a P1 not the P16 but I haven't been able to locate any. It's on their website. Two balanced inputs and a limiter built in. You would connect one to the aux's output and the other to the main mix (I need to check the fan-out of the LR for how many it can drive). They have a pan and loudness control and it's small and rugged battery operated and low priced. Each performer would have to control their own levels as it should be. It's their ears not yours.
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I'm trying to understand why you are feeding back your main mix to channel 1 just to feed aux outs?
Another method we could try which would be better: send the Phones Out from DL1608 to a headphone mixer which can accommodate the main FOH feed plus discrete Aux for each headset. That would eliminate the latency and free up an input channel on the DL1608. Behringer's PowerPlay Pro XL would do that nicely as each channel has Aux input plus main input. Thanks for making me think different :)
Scrap that idea it's been found to be full of surprises and it only gives you 1 IEM mix. Behringer has a personal headphone amp that would be suited for what you're trying to do called a P1 not the P16 but I haven't been able to locate any. It's on their website. Two balanced inputs and a limiter built in. You would connect one to the aux's output and the other to the main mix (I need to check the fan-out of the LR for how many it can drive). They have a pan and loudness control and it's small and rugged battery operated and low priced. Each performer would have to control their own levels as it should be. It's their ears not yours.
I'm also a mastering engineer.
Have a look at the PowerPlay Pro XL - it can do exactly what I need: a main input (either one of the DL's main outs, or the Phone Output) which is routed to all four headset outputs. Each headset output channel can also accept an Aux input which can be mixed with the main signal. So each musician's Aux Send from the DL can be mixed at unity with the main FOH sound, but the actual audio level in the Aux channel will be set by the musicians using Master Fader on their iPads. That is actually a lot easier to achieve than using separate units like the P1. The 3 of us are positioned around a single performance table, so portability/mobility during the gig isnt essential. The only reason for wanting to use wireless was to reduce cable clutter, but the tradeoff is device clutter and increased risk due to wireless technology. It's cheaper and smarter for us to stick with wire. We'll get all the benefits we really need (as opposed to what we think might be cool) just by using wired IEMs and wired headset mics. I'll just use wireless for delay speakers.
As long as we dont forget we're wired and wander off dragging our kit (which has occurred!)
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I'm trying to understand why you are feeding back your main mix to channel 1 just to feed aux outs?
Another method we could try which would be better: send the Phones Out from DL1608 to a headphone mixer which can accommodate the main FOH feed plus discrete Aux for each headset. That would eliminate the latency and free up an input channel on the DL1608. Behringer's PowerPlay Pro XL would do that nicely as each channel has Aux input plus main input. Thanks for making me think different :)
Scrap that idea it's been found to be full of surprises and it only gives you 1 IEM mix. Behringer has a personal headphone amp that would be suited for what you're trying to do called a P1 not the P16 but I haven't been able to locate any. It's on their website. Two balanced inputs and a limiter built in. You would connect one to the aux's output and the other to the main mix (I need to check the fan-out of the LR for how many it can drive). They have a pan and loudness control and it's small and rugged battery operated and low priced. Each performer would have to control their own levels as it should be. It's their ears not yours.
I'm also a mastering engineer.
Have a look at the PowerPlay Pro XL - it can do exactly what I need: a main input (either one of the DL's main outs, or the Phone Output) which is routed to all four headset outputs. Each headset output channel can also accept an Aux input which can be mixed with the main signal. So each musician's Aux Send from the DL can be mixed at unity with the main FOH sound, but the actual audio level in the Aux channel will be set by the musicians using Master Fader on their iPads. That is actually a lot easier to achieve than using separate units like the P1. The 3 of us are positioned around a single performance table, so portability/mobility during the gig isnt essential. The only reason for wanting to use wireless was to reduce cable clutter, but the tradeoff is device clutter and increased risk due to wireless technology. It's cheaper and smarter for us to stick with wire. We'll get all the benefits we really need (as opposed to what we think might be cool) just by using wired IEMs and wired headset mics. I'll just use wireless for delay speakers.
As long as we dont forget we're wired and wander off dragging our kit (which has occurred!)
Yes it can do what you want but it doesn't play nice with the DL. I own two 4700's used for quartet practice and recording thru a Yamaha mixer. The pin 1 problem on the DL and the unbalanced input to the 4700 give you lots of 60 cycle noise. Using a DI box makes it complicated. I wish they had used balanced inputs on the 4700 and one less phone jack. Others on this forum have tried HA4400/4700's with similar results. Custom cables are required to quiet thing down. Check this out.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=582.0
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The pin 1 problem on the DL...
the what now?
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The pin 1 problem on the DL...
the what now?
We have all kinds of hidden treasures in this forum.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=383.0
Happy New Year to all! :)
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The pin 1 problem on the DL...
the what now?
We have all kinds of hidden treasures in this forum.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=383.0
Happy New Year to all! :)
ah, interesting stuff.
all our connections are balanced, and i haven't noticed any noise at all.
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Yes and you wont until you encounter an unbalanced I/O at which time it's best to use a DI box.
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For those of you interested in delay and IEM's here's a study done by a group of Shure guy's in 2007. I gives some interesting insight as to who is affected more by delay. You need to get past the first half of the paper on measuring conditions etc. and get to the meat of the matter. Happy reading.
http://www.lsbaudio.com/publications/AES_Latency.pdf
As to wired directly off the aux outputs, it may work but leaves a lot to be desired in the sound quality dept. The Behringer P1 may be just the ticket for this application or you could spend a little more and go for this guy's design. You can DIY or buy the assembled unit. For the techies out there it gives all that you ever wanted to know about earphone amp design. His input needs to modded for balanced line in for use with the DL.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html
If you want to bypass the EE part and get to more audio oriented explanation with lots of real world examples then try this article.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
So after reading this I went back to the DL spec on outputs and for some reason I had 50 ohms for the aux's in mind well what a surprise a mere 240/120 ohms on aux's and and even worst spec on L/R of 600 ohms. So much for the 1/8 rule for head-amps that would put 960 ohms for the headphones or earplugs (unbalanced). Good luck finding those. If you actually believe that the aux's sound good direct keep on playing! Great job Mackie for cutting all the corners. No specs on their headphone out plug. I wonder why?
The Behringer P1 is specked at 10 ohms not so great but way better than aux's.