Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: PeterKorg on November 21, 2013, 08:53:44 PM
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I am interested to see where you guys set you Main EQ. With our system I end up dropping a large section to -8 to eliminate bass boom, is this a common issue
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What kind of system are you running Peter?
It looks very different to my typical graphic setup, we're probably using different rigs:)
What you like sound wise and what I like could be completely different too.
Did you set by ear or use RTA equipment?
If it sounds good to you and nobody is complaining - happy days!
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I am interested to see where you guys set you Main EQ. With our system I end up dropping a large section to -8 to eliminate bass boom, is this a common issue
That looks very drastic. You may have issue with crossover/bandpass gain and speaker setup. Give a detailed description of your speaker system.
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In theory the graphics on the main output and auxs are to correct for the room and the speakers (both of which have a non-linear frequency response). With the DL1608 (or any good desk) if all DSP (i.e. the channel eq and dynamics, output graphics and dynamics, and global fx) are disabled the output signal should equal the input signal in all ways except gain/level. So the settings of the output graphics will be specific to the rig you are using and the room you are working in.
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Also, the fact you're cutting every single band means you're needlessly reducing gain with the EQ. If you brought those cuts in the highs back to zero and reduced the cut on all the other bands by the same amount, you'd have the same relative spectral balance without screwing up the phase as much.
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This is what mine looked like at the last gig. But it does change from gig to gig.
Try using high pass filters on your channel EQ. This will really help clean up the bottom end.
Cheers
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Sorry I should have given more details so here goes, I use all 16 channels 5 piece band
RCF ART 705 active subs and RCF ART 312 active tops
DW drum kit with Akg d112 on kick and and Akg C418s on snare and toms
Bass DI, lead guitar with Marshall mic'd sure sm57, keys in stereo, lead vocal using wireless sure sm58 beta, and sm58's for backing vox
I have tried bringing up the EQ but always causes boomy feedback,
Don't get me wrong we have a good sound from the PA, no complaints from my band or from the punters, but always concerns me that the EQ is pushed down, just doesn't seem right, which is why I asked for other people's experience
Cheers
Pete
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Bass 'boom' is usually a function of room resonances, smallish rooms have higher resonant frequencies than bigger rooms (obviously, sorry) and pubs and bars often have resonances in the 20-100hz region, a room 8 metres long will have a primary resonance around 43 Hz, slightly higher than a bass guitar low E, typical room heights of 2.5 metres generate a resonance at around 140Hz. Avoid placing the subs in a corner and, if necessary, turn the subs down to stop energising the room nodes. Since the room exaggerates these frequencies you'll still have plenty of bass but you'll remove some or all of the muddiness.
Also, rather than reducing all the low frequencies try to pick out the specific room nodes and make a couple of narrow cuts (these will be different for each room).
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Sorry I should have given more details so here goes, I use all 16 channels 5 piece band
RCF ART 705 active subs and RCF ART 312 active tops
DW drum kit with Akg d112 on kick and and Akg C418s on snare and toms
Bass DI, lead guitar with Marshall mic'd sure sm57, keys in stereo, lead vocal using wireless sure sm58 beta, and sm58's for backing vox
I have tried bringing up the EQ but always causes boomy feedback,
Don't get me wrong we have a good sound from the PA, no complaints from my band or from the punters, but always concerns me that the EQ is pushed down, just doesn't seem right, which is why I asked for other people's experience
Are you using the high pass outputs on the sub to feed your tops? I would also agree with Sam that your sub level might be too hot relative to your tops. And make sure you use the high pass filters on your channels as previously stated to make sure you're not sending too much unwanted energy to the subs you don't need there from open mics.
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I've got a HZ Detector app on my iphone to identify what frequency is the problem. Then I just drop that frequency down. So my EQ is usually straight across with one or two dropped frequencies. I'm running an EV ZXA1 system with subs through an DriveRack PX. My system is quite flat. (I do use the DRPXs anti-feedback with one loud band. I don't bother with it on the other band.) Usually a smiley face or a frown on the EQ is an indication that not enough time was put into the choice of what to do with what frequencies. Properly set, an EQ is more likely to look like a very bad set of pumpkin teeth. Pink noise and a RTA (Real Time Analyzer) will let you know how the system works where it's set up and what needs to be changed. (It's also something that is not good in an occupied room. It works, just not much fun.)
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hey, my first post! :laugh:
here's mine from the last show i did:
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj50/walterw2/05af87d7-9cfd-4f23-914c-753c8b5c770a.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/walterw2/media/05af87d7-9cfd-4f23-914c-753c8b5c770a.jpg.html)
i'm running a sub out of aux 6, so this is the "ghetto crossover" EQ to take the lows out of the tops. +1 to having huge holes in the curve or everything way below the "0" line telling you that something else needs to be fixed. we should be able to balance tops and subs, drums and vocals, until it sounds at least OK before even touching the EQ.
now, they really need to give us the option to lose these stupid 31-band graphics and have those lovely parametric EQs on the outputs, not just the channels.
it would have been so nice to be able to just slide up the HPF to about 100, then put those two little dips in there by sliding my finger along until they sounded right!
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I am interested to see where you guys set you Main EQ. With our system I end up dropping a large section to -8 to eliminate bass boom, is this a common issue
Words are imprecise tools as pertains to sound, but by my terminology nothing right of 160 relates to bass boom. I'm guessing you made that curve in Draw EQ mode. Start over, flat, not in Draw mode. Pull them down one at a time, as few as needed to fix the problem. First, though, turn down the gain on the subs. They're too hot.
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Thanks for your advice, I have a few new things to try tomorrow, one of the problems is the limited time to setup and sound check, typically we have 2 hours, to load in the gear, set everything up, including lights, which usually gives me about 30 minutes to sound check.
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Interesting, I run the 312A tops, but with EV 760b subs. You could try turning down the control on the sub rather than hitting the EQ so hard or turn up the tops, I run mine around the 3 o'clock position. I use very little main EQ typically.
If I were to guess what the problem is I would suspect kick drum or tom mics, check your gates and EQ, toms typically need to be either well gated or have some 300Hz taken out. I had issues at a gig recently due to too much gain on the kick drum and the bass guitar would occassionally kick it off.
Can sympathise with your time to set up :-)
Good luck.
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Limited setup time. That's typical for the venue. Take some time at home and get your base setting flat. You'll need a very dead room or put the speakers facing out of the garage. RTA is the best answer, or a DriveRack, but you can get a very good baseline if your hearing isn't too damaged yet. (I'm 60 and have hearing damage from my teen years. That's why one of my first purchases was an RTA.) Use that and save the settings on your mixer. On a DriveRack the settings get saved on there, but then you have a flat system to run your mixer into and the DL is a pretty flat mixer. (That helps a lot.) I've found that if your system is already EQ'd flat, that most of the time, you can get away without any major changes in most rooms. The closer you run to feedback the farther off the system will sound. (DriveRacks also have anti-feedback and Electronic crossovers. Things you might find useful.)
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Limited setup time. That's typical for the venue. Take some time at home and get your base setting flat. You'll need a very dead room or put the speakers facing out of the garage. RTA is the best answer, or a DriveRack, but you can get a very good baseline if your hearing isn't too damaged yet. (I'm 60 and have hearing damage from my teen years. That's why one of my first purchases was an RTA.) Use that and save the settings on your mixer. On a DriveRack the settings get saved on there, but then you have a flat system to run your mixer into and the DL is a pretty flat mixer. (That helps a lot.) I've found that if your system is already EQ'd flat, that most of the time, you can get away without any major changes in most rooms. The closer you run to feedback the farther off the system will sound. (DriveRacks also have anti-feedback and Electronic crossovers. Things you might find useful.)
Beware the "auto-EQ" of the DriveRacks and similar processors. They are time-blind single input RTA based analyzers which don't account for room modes. I believe dbx even has a warning in the user guide about this. The bottom line is they can turn your room EQ into chop suey making things far worse than a flat setting. Only dual input FFT based RTAs can give accurate results system tuning and I'm not aware of any speaker processors that incorporate that function. Only external measurement packages like SMAART and Systune do. I've also yet to find a "feedback killer" that didn't cause issues. You're still better off learning how to ring out monitors & mains and then notching out problematic frequencies on the EQ.
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That's one reason that I do my EQ settings outside my garage. It is great advice for people are unfamiliar with the drive rack units. Got to read the manual at least three or four times
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That's one reason that I do my EQ settings outside my garage. It is great advice for people are unfamiliar with the drive rack units. Got to read the manual at least three or four times
Even in a garage and aiming the speakers out the door is a problem as a fair amount of energy in the lows/low mids radiates to the side and behind the speakers. The reflections of that energy recombining out of phase or even in phase will give inaccurate readings. Only wide open fields with no trees or boundaries will allow relatively accurate use of an old school RTA type setup. For most folks, dual input FFT analysis is still the only thing that will give usable measurements. But of course, using those types of measurement systems is no trivial matter and takes some learning and practice to understand what you're seeing.
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I was setting up a functional baseline. It's proved so useful, that normal volumes don't need anti-feedback to be set. That said, I'm now playing with people who have no idea how loud we are or how to turn down for a good mix. My life is now hell!
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Peter
Are you using the HP filters on the individual channels?
As mentioned here, that will help you quickly eliminate the stage rumble. I use them on every channel except Kick, bass and keys. I typically tune my system bass heavy, but with these filters everything stays clean & punchy.
In many small ambient rooms, I've noticed that the stage sound is very heavy in low-mid and upper bass frequencies. My EQ will often have a little smily-face cut here, but to cut all frequencies on the 31 band by 2 db or more is sucking the life out of your PA.
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if your hearing isn't too damaged yet. (I'm 60 and have hearing damage from my teen years. That's why one of my first purchases was an RTA.)
I have a bit of Tinnitus, I think that is from standing next to drum kit for too many years, but no too badly damaged, I don't have DriveRack or RTA
I have bought the Octave App, so that may help.
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I run mine around the 3 o'clock position. I use very little main EQ typically.
I normally set them at 4 or 5 o'clock, so will try try that and generally the HP filters are not used
Many thanks
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I run mine around the 3 o'clock position. I use very little main EQ typically.
I normally set them at 4 or 5 o'clock, so will try try that and generally the HP filters are not used
Many thanks
You definitely need to use HPFs on all channels except kick, bass and keys. The low frequency mush that multiple mics pick up literally multiplies the problem. Solo each mic and listen on headphones (or on the main PA with everything else muted) while you increase the HPF frequency until you hear a change in the tone of the vocal/instrument then back it down a little, you'll be surprised how high you can set them before they affect the sound of the source. The next job is to set the gates on the drumkit close mics etc. The improvement in low frequency clarity you get from doing this correctly is huge.
HTH
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What frequency do you guys generally set your HPF s, let's say toms, vocals and guitars? I generally set between 50-80 Hz.
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Last night (Kirsty Almeida & The Troubadours, not me mixing on the youtubes BTW but she's worth a look) I used Karma Silver Bullets on the toms (very live jazz kit) had the HPF at 61Hz (toms carry quite a lot of low frequency energy, the trick last night was to contain the overtones which I did by setting the mics about 4-5" from the heads rather than as close as possible and gating fairly aggressively. The Karma's are omni's which helps to avoid some proximity effect and gating controls the spill), similar on the backing vocals (Beta58s) but 134Hz on Kirsty's lead vocal (with my SE-H1, and sounding very nice indeed). It's surprising how high you can go with HPF on vox, guitars and the likes of drum overheads before it changes the sound of the source and anything you can keep out of the subs is welcome.
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...generally the HP filters are not used
aah!
that's the number-one thing you gotta do. high-pass everything except kick and bass, maybe some low toms.
vox especially, run them puppies up to at least 100Hz, maybe higher. flatten out the channel EQ, talk into the mic and just start sliding the filter over until you hear the "woof" go away.
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Thanks guys for the advice, this certainly helped me out, had a play with the HPF and set them as recommended,
Set EQ flat, I was getting a small amount of boom on Kick drum, just had to drop a couple of the frequencies at 100/125 thanks again, have next gig on Friday, and we are setting up and sound checking the night before, so should a bit more time to mass about.
Cheers
Pete
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Yeah, I had a huge room resonance on the kick and double bass when the room filled up which required around a 6dB cut at 100 and 125 on the main graphic. I put that down to "room tuning" though so didn't mention it in answer to previous post.
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Same here, 100Hz spike late in the show. I actually narrowed the frequency down with RTA by Audio Tools running on the same iPad. It was the first time I ever used it during a show.
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I have Faber Acoustical "Signal Scope" on my iPhone which helps confirm which frequencies are troublesome.... no substitute for ears though ::)
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I used the same subs as the OP for several years (RCF 705-AS) and that's not the EQ I would use. It's a band pass so the priority is output above tone. Here are my suggestions.
- Cross them over at 80 Hz (via the built in switch on the sub). It will put out strong above this but this helps the box thud more and produce less mid bass.
- I generally find a strong 125-150Hz dominate many rooms. I try to take this out of the bass guitar channel strip
- Try being more aggressive with your HPF. I set mine (lead singer) around 120, but the backing vocals are around 150 Hz. Put a HPF on the guitar too at at least 100 Hz.
- If you have keys in the band cut the lows there too. This keeps the left hand stuff from competing with the bass lines and cleans things up significantly.
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The room resonances obviously depend on the size of the room, I've had to deal with anything between 100Hz and 160Hz over the last few gigs. You are right about bass guitars exciting the room, this was part off the problem I had on Saturday (upright stick bass which is worse than a Fender Precision or similar), the other was the floor tom doing the same thing. I didn't HPF the piano on this occasion as it is a jazz flavoured line up and his low end was relevant (and being DI'd it didn't contribute to 'stage wash').
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Anything so severe as what is originally posted points to incorrectly configured equipment (crossover, etc). The room and speaker placement certainly plays a large part in any EQ changes you should make, but I generally find that I can leave things flat, except in certain circumstances where room layout and speaker placement result in "boomy" bass. I don't have an RTA, but since I play bass I find the offending notes and cut as appropriate (I carry a chart that shows notes correlated with frequency). I usually don't have to cut a lot, and in only a very small area (just a band or three.)
I agree with an early poster that you should baseline your system in a "clean" room or facing out of a garage, so you know what settings result in your desired sound. Then you should only need to tweak a little bit once you're at your venue.
One caveat to all this. Be sure you're testing at a level similar to what you normally play. Also have the monitors switchable in and out to compare. Some bands crank the monitors so high that they almost don't need FOH sound, which results in difficulty achieving a clean FOH mix. I'm fortunate that (in my band) we all use in-ear monitors and all play through the main P.A. (no separate guitar amps), so we have an easy time getting clean sound. Now if only we could better isolate the drummer... :)
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Anything so severe as what is originally posted points to incorrectly configured equipment (crossover, etc). The room and speaker placement certainly plays a large part in any EQ changes you should make, but I generally find that I can leave things flat, except in certain circumstances where room layout and speaker placement result in "boomy" bass. I don't have an RTA, but since I play bass I find the offending notes and cut as appropriate (I carry a chart that shows notes correlated with frequency). I usually don't have to cut a lot, and in only a very small area (just a band or three.)
I agree with an early poster that you should baseline your system in a "clean" room or facing out of a garage, so you know what settings result in your desired sound. Then you should only need to tweak a little bit once you're at your venue.
One caveat to all this. Be sure you're testing at a level similar to what you normally play. Also have the monitors switchable in and out to compare. Some bands crank the monitors so high that they almost don't need FOH sound, which results in difficulty achieving a clean FOH mix. I'm fortunate that (in my band) we all use in-ear monitors and all play through the main P.A. (no separate guitar amps), so we have an easy time getting clean sound. Now if only we could better isolate the drummer... :)
My band has a hard-hitting drummer so monitor bleed was a serious problem. For a while we went to drum shields and they helped somewhat but carrying and setting those things up was a PITA. He recently bought a Rolland electronic kit and although I was skeptical, it sounds incredible. Many guys are dead set against e drums but after hearing and mixing them we will never go back to an acoustic kit because we mostly play small clubs.
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My band has a hard-hitting drummer so monitor bleed was a serious problem. For a while we went to drum shields and they helped somewhat but carrying and setting those things up was a PITA. He recently bought a Rolland electronic kit and although I was skeptical, it sounds incredible. Many guys are dead set against e drums but after hearing and mixing them we will never go back to an acoustic kit because we mostly play small clubs.
E-drums can indeed make a lot of bad stuff go away. 4+ less open mics, plus the bleed from the vocal mics into the drums, unavoidable increase in back line volume. The smaller the room, the bigger the benefit. Not as visually appealing, but they often become a conversation piece on their own. We just upgraded to a Roland TD-30 (from a TD-8) and WOW! Here's Saturday's 1st set - http://youtu.be/gjfHZS3IL7w (http://youtu.be/gjfHZS3IL7w)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjfHZS3IL7w
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I'm not a fan of electronic drums, they can suck the life out of the band, (along with electric guitars straight into the PA via a Pod or some such and I have played with both). Maybe it's my age ;) OTOH I'm not a fan of mega loud stuff either and they do have a place (I'v done PA for two or three top notch functions bands who couldn't live without). Also I have been lucky enough to work with some great drummers who understand the concept of subtlety which definitely helps. 8)
Nice video BTW (despite the above.....) great songs and well played :angel:
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I normally run FOH eq flat. If there are any problem areas I will use a parametric with Systems Architect. Very rarely have to make more than a couple small cuts in problem rooms. Outside shows like this I never have to touch the eq. If you have to eq the hell out of your monitors and FOH there is something wrong somewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYrrSTwHnjc
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I normally run FOH eq flat. If there are any problem areas I will use a parametric with Systems Architect. Very rarely have to make more than a couple small cuts in problem rooms. Outside shows like this I never have to touch the eq. If you have to eq the hell out of your monitors and FOH there is something wrong somewhere.
Sometimes for louder acts and lively rooms, you have to do more drastic EQ, especially on loud monitors on a loud stage. And graphics can be a lot faster than parametrics when you've got a lot of mixes to ring out. Case in point, the 2003 Pearl Jam tour I was a fill in monitor tech on for a few weeks. Quite a bit of hacking had to occur to get things stable with 13 tri-amped mixes, 3 of which also had subs on an aux send. There are 4 more channels of EQ hidden by the desk in the PSU rack.
(http://www.cameronproaudio.com/pjmonitors2003.jpg)
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Greg, that is quite an impressive rig and a big step up from a DL1608.
How long do you think it will before that sort of hardware is replaced with virtual technology?
Cheers
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Greg, that is quite an impressive rig and a big step up from a DL1608.
How long do you think it will before that sort of hardware is replaced with virtual technology?
Cheers
LOL. That was 2003. The current PJ setup uses a Midas Pro9 (http://www.midasconsoles.com/Products/PRO9-TP.aspx) console plus a Midas Venice analog desk for one mix. They've also switch to some in ears so less wedges on stage. But still quite a few mixes. But a ton less real estate used in monitor world.
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...generally the HP filters are not used
aah!
that's the number-one thing you gotta do. high-pass everything except kick and bass, maybe some low toms.
vox especially, run them puppies up to at least 100Hz, maybe higher. flatten out the channel EQ, talk into the mic and just start sliding the filter over until you hear the "woof" go away.
having just used the board last night, i followed my own advice; i found that right around 110Hz is where the vox just started to "clean up" with the HPF, and any higher caused the vox to sound thin.
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Used that advice last night, pushed my PA to its limit I think, 463 people, black tie event, in between our sets was Alexander O'Neal who did a half an hour set singing to backing tapes. Thanks again for your advice.
It was a very boomy room so without that advice I think I would have struggled
We did have one issue with an intermittent crackle, we finally managed to track it down to interference on wireless mic, changed the channel to cure it.
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A good soundman earns their keep by tracing problems and figuring out the fixes. Way to go on finding the mic problem.
In my band, I seem to be the only one aware of mic channel issues. I love the ease and simplicity of Shure's wireless mics systems. Our lead singer has a Sennheiser system and it is a bit of a challenge to change. He's never read the manual and doesn't carry it with him. Now how useful is that? I can manage it, but the manual would have been useful and being it's his system, he should know how to make everything work. This is a singer who's first statements to the band was that he didn't know music and never counts beats. We've all taken that to mean that if you have any musical training, it's worthless. I'm pretty sure that wasn't his intent, but it feels sucky anyway.
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Our lead singer has a Sennheiser system and it is a bit of a challenge to change. He's never read the manual and doesn't carry it with him. Now how useful is that?
LOL that was exactly my scenario Sennheiser beta, nice mic, and nice fancy box, no manual, and not straight forward to change, we did figure it out eventually.
To be fair, he has now read the manual and knows how to change, and only takes a few seconds.