Bassaholics Anonymous > Cabs
Bass Cabs as Subs
Greg C.:
--- Quote from: RoadRanger on September 12, 2013, 03:27:00 AM ---I'm often complemented on the clarity of my mixes - and yes, I do usually run "sub hot" with plenty of chest thumping kick (which is 70Hz+).
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My subs are low passed at 50-60Hz, so most of that 70-80Hz mid bass attack is coming from my tops ;) I think the mud you speak off can happen with any rig and is not symptomatic of high quality subwoofers with very low frequency extension or making use of that extension. If find the biggest problems with mud outside of room issues has to due with poorly tuned systems and/or low quality subs with one note or resonance issue from poor design. Of course, the issue of preference always comes into play even with a good rig and some people simply don't like to feel that much low end or extension no matter how un-muddy it is. I can guarantee you most of my mixes (I say most because sometimes you can't help a poorly equipped or poorly trained band) are not muddy but sound and feel very powerful. Most of the bands and audiences love it. But I do it when it's appropriate. I don't crank the subs for old school blue grass (but i will for the young modern "blue grass"), I don't crank them when it's not what the artist wants or when I can sense the audience might not appreciate it. Other times, it's hammer them into limiting with the high pass off if that's what's called for. And for 5 strings bass, the low B sounds/feels amazing with good subs that have the headroom to reproduce the note cleanly.
--- Quote from: RoadRanger on September 12, 2013, 03:27:00 AM --- I run a Maxxbass processor that gives me apparent extension down to 20Hz when running recorded music but generally bypass it during the live show:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental
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While I agree psychoacoustics can be fun and useful at certain times, they're not a true substitute for moving real air. As the old saying goes, "there's no replacement for displacement." ;-)
RoadRanger:
Well, I doubt you're carrying around a system such as you describe to the < 400 cap venues I'm typically in? And I'll re-iterate that the "gold standard" of bass rigs (Ampeg SVT w/8x10 cab) isn't flat below 50 Hz never mind down to the 32 Hz of that B string you're fond of ;) . I've yet to have any bass player complain about the LF extension of my PA. On the contrary they are happy that out front they can hear what note they are playing for a change. Heck, when providing for an ampless band all my monitors are HPF'd at 100 including the one(s) the bass player is using - the backwash off the "subs" fills in the 50-100 nicely :) . I will admit that in the privacy of my own home I'll occasionally play through my stereo solo which goes down to 20 and enjoy it but I'd never want that sound playing in a band as I'd not cut through - mud city :( .
RoadRanger:
--- Quote from: Greg C. on September 12, 2013, 03:46:08 AM ---While I agree psychoacoustics can be fun and useful at certain times, they're not a true substitute for moving real air. As the old saying goes, "there's no replacement for displacement." ;-)
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I disagree. I put a MaxxBass in a dance club install where they were blowing their subs every 2-3 months and not only did it "cure" that but now you can hear and feel those 25 Hz bass drops just fine that were inaudible before :) . Their subs are a pair of Cerwin Vega 18" folded horns which can't go below 50 Hz without damaging themselves.
Greg C.:
--- Quote from: RoadRanger on September 12, 2013, 05:14:18 AM ---Well, I doubt you're carrying around a system such as you describe to the < 400 cap venues I'm typically in? And I'll re-iterate that the "gold standard" of bass rigs (Ampeg SVT w/8x10 cab) isn't flat below 50 Hz never mind down to the 32 Hz of that B string you're fond of ;) . I've yet to have any bass player complain about the LF extension of my PA. On the contrary they are happy that out front they can hear what note they are playing for a change. Heck, when providing for an ampless band all my monitors are HPF'd at 100 including the one(s) the bass player is using - the backwash off the "subs" fills in the 50-100 nicely :) . I will admit that in the privacy of my own home I'll occasionally play through my stereo solo which goes down to 20 and enjoy it but I'd never want that sound playing in a band as I'd not cut through - mud city :( .
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I'm not trying to imply that what you're doing isn't good or not getting the job done - only that there is another world out there beyond the old school 40Hz cutoff. Let me ask you this: have you ever had the opportunity to mix on a high end powerful rig with deep subs? I'm not talking about anything Cerwin Vega (mediocre at best) makes. I'm talking about big stuff by companies like L-Acoustics, top end EAW, JBL Vertec, d&b AudioTechnik, etc. It's a real eye opener when you do. To me it was sort of like The Matrix - the world you never knew existed being revealed.
RoadRanger:
--- Quote from: Greg C. on September 12, 2013, 05:18:52 PM ---I'm not trying to imply that what you're doing isn't good or not getting the job done - only that there is another world out there beyond the old school 40Hz cutoff. Let me ask you this: have you ever had the opportunity to mix on a high end powerful rig with deep subs? I'm not talking about anything Cerwin Vega (mediocre at best) makes. I'm talking about big stuff by companies like L-Acoustics, top end EAW, JBL Vertec, d&b AudioTechnik, etc. It's a real eye opener when you do. To me it was sort of like The Matrix - the world you never knew existed being revealed.
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In the rare cases where I'm in a room (or outside) where I'm not fighting room modes AND mixing a band that is modern rock I will punch in the MaxxBass and can get what you describe goin'. It just isn't appropriate for classic rock. Keep in mind it's rare where I can tune a system to the room - often I can't even soundcheck with the mains up (or even at all) :facepalm: .
Also my entire system fits in my Scion xA hatchback - the clientele I service can't afford to be paying me to own a truck or to even haul the trailer usually. My largest subs are Rog 186 18" folded horns that can keep folks back 15+ feet at full boogie, ~ 140db@1m :o . http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=186horn
Different worlds you and I :) .
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