Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: RoadRanger on March 24, 2013, 08:26:28 PM
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Anybody using the global phantom power on the DL1608 ? I don't much care for global phantom so I've been using passive DI's and a dynamic mic for the drum overhead where a condenser is the "standard" :-\ .
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I use it all the time, it is completely reliable.
I used it on March 9th for a barbershop show and used my Schoeps stereo CMXY4V mic for the quartet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwmxNDZ3Jsg
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Use it every gig with drum overheads and active DI's. No noise or problems so far.
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I've used it since day one with the DL, and have done about 20 gigs now. Used with LR Baggs ParaDI's, and a PG81 mic. No issues whatsoever, except if i don't turn it on. I do the sound for a 7 piece Irish band.
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I used it a couple times just for a single drum over head (Shure 81) no issues so far though i forgot about the bass player :facepalm: I've been running him direct to board out of his DI on his Mesa Boogie head so far no issues with his head but i'm gonna hold off untill i get a ballanced 1/4" to XLR for his channel just to avoid running phantom power to his head.
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IME the only "advantage" of a condenser overhead is that it picks up the cymbals better - but also IME the cymbals are picked up plenty good by the vocal mics on-stage and you end up EQing out the highs from the overhead anyways :o . I often run just a kick mic and an overhead so I'm more trying to get the toms as they are usually the one thing too quiet :( .
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RR,
when I don't have enough inputs for all the drum mics that I want, I don't purposely mic the cymbals. I use kick (Shure Beta 52A) snare Beyer Opus 87, and Beyer Opus 87 on toms that are Y corded into one input. This gets everything mic'd and sounding awesome,... and only using three channels. The ticket is to use good sounding condenser mics on the toms and snare since the cymbals are going to leak into the tom mics anyway, at least the leaking cymbals have nice "studio quality". Dynamic microphones always have inadequate high frequency detail compared to condenser mics, especially with cymbals. I clip the Opus 87 snare mic onto the snare and point it so that it picks up the Hi-hat also (on purpose), but not the gap between the Hi hats (to eliminate blasts of air) this one mic covers the snare and hat. The mounted toms share an Opus 87 mic as do the floor tom/s, this is better anyway since there would be some phase related issues if we mic'd the toms separately... a win win situation!
These mics are made by Beyer Dynamic and are now called TG D57c.
The brand name "Beyer Dynamic" is not to be confused with dynamic microphones, these are not dynamic mics they are condenser, and need phantom power.
You owe it to yourself to buy at least one and try it on toms or snare. I have also used them inside a grand piano clamped onto the frame of the piano, this allows the lid to becompletely closed and the useable level is unreal! If you buy one and don't like it, I will buy it from you.
Dan
(http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/650x650/602f0fa2c1f0d1ba5e241f914e856ff9/t/g/tg_d57c_3c.jpg)
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OK! I know your not Dan Jordan and certainly not Jim Raycroft that's were I run out of Dapper Dan names. All this from four part Harmony? Please if you can explain your "I use kick (Shure Beta 52A) snare Beyer Opus 87, and Beyer Opus 87 on toms that are Y corded into one input. " Tying outputs together is not a recommended practice, that's what mixers are for. I have dealt with Barbershop for 30+ yrs. and always with surprises.
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Hi WK,
DP Dan is for Digital Performer Dan :)
I make all my own cables, adaptors etc, I use a Y cord that has two female XLRs terminating to a single male XLR.
As long as the microphones that are connected to the Y cord are the same model, everything is fine.
There are people that will say "you can't do that, the impedance will be blah blah blah"... and that's true, but we can do that without harming anything.
I've used Y cords with mics for ages like this and it's all good.
Dan
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Hi Digital Performer Dan Not a former Dapper Dan?. It's not that you would damage anything it's just two impedance's in parallel but there is of course no individual control over each Mic. Mic placement would definitely be crucial. The mics would also have to be well matched in frequency response to sound good. Lots of XY mics out there but none I'm aware of have a single output. There must be a reason for that I just can't remember.
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you're correct about XY mics not having a single output, it would always be best to have control over every single mic, but when you only have 16 inputs on a job and vocal mics and brass and other things are far more important than the toms, that's when we are forced to do what we have to do, but I would never want to mic the kick and snare....
only to have every drum fill go in the toilet because we didn't have the toms mic'd. Much better to have mics on the toms as opposed to not having them micd, even if we have to combine them into one channel, at least the drum fills are full like they should be.
The stereo XY Schoeps mic I have does have a single output (plug) but it is a five conductor XLR with each capsule on a separate XLR breakout cable.
Dan
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The problem with using capacitors this way is that they have active preamps feeding the mic cable and the output of one is driving the output of the other, preamps don't like this and while you may get away with it it certainly isn't "best practice". A small passive mixer would solve the problem without losing too much level.
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it works perfect,
there is no noticeable gain lost in toms,
I know it is not best practice, but best practice and what works are two different things many times,
nothing blows up, green smoke doesn't come out and when you say condenser mic preamps don't like being fed into each other, you are indeed correct,
but I have never heard the mics complain :)
Heck, if I could run all my Crown amps into one speaker cable and feed all the double 18 subs I would, and I would have fewer cables to wrap up during load-out,
but that would have consequences. Tying two condenser mics together when we are short of inputs has no consequences at all. OK I made my point..
the impedance police :police:
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it works perfect,
there is no noticeable gain lost in toms,
I know it is not best practice, but best practice and what works are two different things many times,
nothing blows up, green smoke doesn't come out and when you say condenser mic preamps don't like being fed into each other, you are indeed correct,
but I have never heard the mics complain :)
I wouldn't disagree with you, other than to say that "best practice" is "best practice" for a reason. OTOH in the rough and tumble of a live show "bp" goes out of the window with frightening regularity >:D
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I have a little Yamaha MG82CX I use for acoustic gigs. It only has four mic inputs, I've had as many as three "Y" cords into it 8) . While I've never done that with phantom powered mics like the Beyer Opus 87 there's no reason it shouldn't work it you understand the single ended output topology of a typical condenser mic :) . "Y"ing together tom mics was very common back when I first started out. You can usually get away with "Y"ing background vocals together or even the lead if the band is good at dynamics :) .
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Mic combiners such as the AT8681 at $60 would take care of the problem and provide a limited balance control. There are probably less expensive units out there. These pass phantom power.
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Mic combiners such as the AT8681 at $60 would take care of the problem [...]
What problem? ;D
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Tying active outputs together. Having some balance control! Not introducing any more noise than necessary. Of course -50dBu is probably considered quiet in your live venues.
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Tying active outputs together.
As I said it is perfectly OK with the type of output a typical phantom powered mic has:
(http://moosapotamus.net/images/mic_wm-61a_corrected.gif)
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Really Ron!!
This circuit isn't even close to the cheapest I'm aware of. I'm not here to argue design points or much of anything else. My experience and mainstream audio design believes otherwise. Once again most companies in the MI business would not produce a product that had no functionality (except for the cable industry). If you want to save a few pennies and cobble together a makeshift solution more power to you. Times have changed and this business has learned a few things over the years (especially from the computer industry (Creative Labs send them into a price tailspin)). Since 30% of the population is hearing impaired (House Ear Institute ) add a few beers or mohito's for the rest and who cares anyway! I totally get your point!!!! Technically no EE. Some of the most informative information I have found for general use is Bill Witlocks Pres. at Jensen Transformers. He is a recognized authority on noise subject's http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/generic%20seminar.pdf and Bob Katz has a new iPad audio book worth reading (google it). Both worth reading. Even non tech types will walk away with some simple basic rules that will remove the Myths and mysteries of this opinionated profession or as Einstein put it "it's all relative".
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dpdan says he's happy with the results of "Y"ing together condenser mics and I've had no issues with doing it for dynamic mics over the last 35 years. Dunno why you're having a cow over it :P. We have no problem if you want to do it differently :) . With only 16 channels this is a common issue users of the DL1608 face. My EV drum mic kit has 10 mics - two kicks, snare, high hat, two rack toms, two floor toms, and two overheads. IMO it's up to the operator how he wants to do it - I was just reorganizing my stuff today and have four of each "gender" of "Y" cord (MMF & FFM) ;D.
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I did say "I totally get it !!!!" in case you missed it. I just offered a more flexible alternative which meets" best practices" and I don't see why your having a cow about it! I never go to a gig with minimum gear. I know beforehand what my requirements are. I leave at least 2-4 inputs available for Murphy. I may be in a better position to match gear to gig (6 roadworthy mixers out of 27 (I was informed by the boss to lighten the load! for move day). I have over 50yrs in this business but I am now having some fun and being picky.
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Thinking about that drummer and his requirements, let him have his own mixer 8 (12 if you insist) should be plenty and let him mix. Not much more than the mic combiner. Then the overall mix won't be drowned out by drums since you have one input from him and control the rest of the sound. Sounds fair to everyone except possibly the drummer.
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I leave at least 2-4 inputs available for Murphy. I may be in a better position to match gear to gig (6 roadworthy mixers out of 27
Here we're mostly talking about living within the DL1608's channel count - and most of us won't have a bigger mixer available or don't want to hump around a 24 channel board and snake and racks of outboard. That's why most of us bought the DL1608 :) .
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I hear you so give the drummer which uses 10 out of you 16 inputs his own mixer and be done with it! You'll even have some spares in case one of the inputs dies. Small analog and you won't even notice it with all the other gear, short cables and he can adjust to his hearts content.
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I hear you so give the drummer which uses 10 out of you 16 inputs his own mixer and be done with it! You'll even have some spares in case one of the inputs dies. Small analog and you won't even notice it with all the other gear, short cables and he can adjust to his hearts content.
Dunno how it is where you are but we don't let the drummer (or anybody else on-stage) mix their own FOH sound :o . And I've yet to have a drummer I needed 10 mics on. I just have them in case they are needed :) - along with my "Y" cords ;) .
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Did I say FOH NO his own mix ONLY and he would know better than you as to how he want's to sound or you better have a chat. You are on stage and control FOH so do you need to get off stage? The 10 mics was your own headcount. "My EV drum mic kit has 10 mics - two kicks, snare, high hat, two rack toms, two floor toms, and two overheads." Your info is clearly lacking on details of your band as I picture it.
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I never said I was mixing from the stage nor that it was my band or one band in particular. I'd probably choose a StudioLive for that - in fact one band I played in had one of those (16 channel version) and a splitter snake so we could run our own IEM's when using a house PA. Otherwise we had a guy to push faders for us. I play bass and in that band didn't use an amp. I rehearsed or jammed with four different groups over the weekend - and provided sound for another band x( :lol: .