Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Trshot on August 26, 2015, 05:39:57 AM
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Hello all,
I've gone from a Mix Wix with a Drive Rack PA to the DL 1608 w/DRPA.
I want to run Aux Subs but can't see a way to do it with the DRPA. So my thoughts are to lose the DRPA and use the DL's HP/LP filters as my crossover. The DL offers a lot of processing that IMO renders the DRPA unnecessary to keep in the chain, your thoughts?
thanks...
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Without knowing what's beyond the DRPA it's a generalization. The DRPA is a 2 in up to 6 out speaker management system far better equipped to handle job than the DL. Since you've had this for a while then you know that it can be a bear to setup right. Wynnd uses it and should have more input on this. Why do you want to control your subs via Aux? Is it for less gear? Different workflow could be your answer.
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Yes I do use a DRPA on the output of my DL1608. I wouldn't bother with aux run subs. what is the reason for using them? If you have a properly setup Drive Rack with subs, you don't really need to separate out items for the subs. Can you do it without the DRPA? Absolutely, but the DRPA doesn't take up much room and weighs very little so if you have it, use it. (And you get very functional anti-feedback with it too.)
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I use the DL's HP/LP filters to run the tops on the main outs and the subs on aux 6. The only real issue is you have to adjust the aux 6 output fader when you adjust the main fader. I've had a loooong standing request into Mackie to "fix" this (AKA allow linking the main and aux 6 output faders), and maybe even offer a true crossover mode for those that want that :) .
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The main reason is to see if it truly "cleans up" the mix as I've read elsewhere. Although I'm happy with the overall sound, I know the bottom can be better. I've used the DRPA wizard and did a gain structure on the system but find the low end to be lacking in the punch dept as I've heard with other setups using similar gear. It's more boomy lacking that tight punchy feel. I run two sub set ups, single or dual 18" boxes depending on venue size. I've never been happy with how either sound including when I had the Mix Wiz. One set up is JBL SR4718X with a crown CE4000. The other is JBL MR528S with two bridged CE 4000's. I'm using an Audix D6 for my kick and have positioned it numerous ways As well. I'm a drummer, not a sound man but not lacking in the above basic knowledge running a PA.
The other reason is to be able to raise and lower the bottom end volume to have more control over it.
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^ What do you presently have the subs HPF'd at? What is your crossover frequency?
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Tops and bottoms are crossed at either 100 or 110., I can't recall which at the moment...I'm using MRX515 tops
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Here is a good discussion on your dilemma. http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/LivePerformanceCategory/acapella-33/370780-
Auto setup may need to be set aside. You need to play with the DRPA some more and 100 crossover seems to high. Room acoustics will affect that.
BTW what was wrong with the answers from http://www2.dbxpro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3224 ?
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Just to let u know there is a sort of way to link the lr with the aux
If u link them to a vca u can control them simultanios
I always link the masters of the aux to a vca to have a quick way to lower the auxes in case of feedback
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Just to let u know there is a sort of way to link the lr with the aux
If u link them to a vca u can control them simultanios
I always link the masters of the aux to a vca to have a quick way to lower the auxes in case of feedback
I didn't think you could put the LR in a VCA - I'll check it out :) .
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Tops and bottoms are crossed at either 100 or 110., I can't recall which at the moment...I'm using MRX515 tops
And the subs have what for a HPF? It should be 35 or 40 Hz. BTW "punch" is up around 100Hz so you might want to try lowing the crossover to 80Hz. Bridged CE4000's are way too much for those MR528S, just run them like the others, one on each side of a single CE4000. You may have already "flabbed" them out (damaged the suspensions) and need reconing, especially if you were running with no HPF on them :( .
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Sorry RR, you did ask for HPF and I didn't include that in my response, yes, I'm at 35hz.
How am I overpowered if the rule is twice the RMS as the speaker rating? The CE is at 2800w @ 4ohms and the 528's run at 600w cont./1600w program/3200w peak. I checked the suspension and voice coils when I first bought them used. The subs sound great with program music running. So by lowering to xover 80hz I'll be putting the punch in the tops correct?
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You've probably be a bit less muddy if you raised the HPF to 40. The rating you quoted is the 100 hour rating I think - if you're happy with 100 hours of life then running at the program rating is fine (1600w). 2800w ... nah. Those who want their subs to last a few years usually keep it to 1.5x the continuous rating - 1200w in this case. And how did you check the suspensions - did you verify that the FS of the drivers is where it's supposed to be at least? What happens is the suspensions weaken due to excess excursion and the drivers are no longer tuned to the box.
http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/MRX%20Series/MRX528S.pdf
http://www.djchat.com/showthread.php/116119-Need-Amp-Suggestions-for-MRX-528-sub
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I can raise it up to 40hz, it certainly can't hurt. The 100hr rating is JBL's so called torture test. Meaning their speaker designs have been ran at full capacity for a 100 hrs straight and will survive, not the shelf life of the speaker before it needs to be reconed.
Basically what I checked was movement of the cone and its connection to the basket and voice coil along with making sure the voice coil didn't have any restrictions in its movement. As mentioned if I play any programmed music, Michael Jacksons Thriller for example the subs sound great...
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I've noticed that some subs sound quite muddy. I'm running ZXA1 subs and tops. (Yes, I know that's a lot less PA than most of you want, but it works for me. After all, my 760 Leslie only goes to 118 DBC and the EV ZXA1s go to 127 dbc measured. And I really don't like stage volumes that loud.) The EVs subs are tight and that works so well for me. I've also set my DRPA up with just a stereo signal to the subs and jumped to the satellites, and I've got a second setting that runs stereo satellites and mono subs, and I've got a third setting that has stereo satellites and stereo subs. Three different configurations with different levels of connection complexity. I can't hear any differences between them. (And all the differences are in the sub connections.)
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I wouldn't bother with aux run subs. what is the reason for using them? If you have a properly setup Drive Rack with subs, you don't really need to separate out items for the subs.
Plenty of good reasons to run aux fed subs. Few reasons not to. I do it for systems small and large. It's an asset in both cases and for slightly varying reasons.
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Greg C,
That's pretty much what I've read. To get back on subject can it be accomplished with a DRPA ? BTW, I run my system mono if that helps...thanks
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Greg C,
That's pretty much what I've read. To get back on subject can it be accomplished with a DRPA ? BTW, I run my system mono if that helps...thanks
Here's how I've got my rig setup - I'm using an XTA digital speaker processor for my tops. They require more than just a basic crossover since they're non-powered. They're 4-way active with separate amps/channels for each driver set (15s, 10s, 2" compression drivers, 1" compression drivers). I don't have enough channels in the XTA (4 in/8 out) to run extra processing for the subs. So I just use a simple dbx 223XL analog crossover to low pass the sub aux send. For my setup, the only thing between the sub amps and the crossover is an old analog Symetrics limiter for protection. Alternatively you could get a second DRPA for just the subs if wanted to or needed the extra delay/EQ/limiting the DRPA affords. Otherwise an inexpensive analog processor/crossover would work fine for the sub send.
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Thoughts on using the DL1608's Aux out and use the LPF/HPF to set xover points and EQ to tune? The only thing I'd be missing is a limiter but with proper gain structure I should be (relatively) safe, yes?
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Thoughts on using the DL1608's Aux out and use the LPF/HPF to set xover points and EQ to tune? The only thing I'd be missing is a limiter but with proper gain structure I should be (relatively) safe, yes?
I forget what the slope is on the pass filters on the DL. But if you can achieve 24dB per octave, that will work. The limiter isn't so much about gain structure. It's about overdriving the subs which is possible regardless of the gain structure of the system. If you're careful and the only one driving your rig, you can get away without it if you know the limits and can keep an eye on the amps. Before I doubled my number of subs recently, there were shows where I was hitting the limiter pretty well at levels that would have destroyed the subs with no limiter in place. But my setup is designed to be able to hit limiting without egregious distortion or pumping in the subs. And it makes the system relatively worry free to know you can hit it hard without blowing it up doing hip-hop and loud metal.
Greg
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The DL mixers has adjustable limiters on all the outputs...
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RR, there are limiters or compressors or both? I don't recall seeing limiters.
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Greg, NO hip hop or metal here! Top 40 dance/Rock is what we play.
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The output processing on the DL is: high pass , lo pass both selectable 6-12-18-24/dB oct. , four band parametric , 31 band grafic eq , comp/limitor and delay
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Greg, NO hip hop or metal here! Top 40 dance/Rock is what we play.
I do hippy jam bands too ;)
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Desk shot.
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I'm one of those who only use subs to extend the PA range downward. Most people use them to add stupid amounts of excessive bass. If the drummer really wanted to sound like that, wouldn't they bring their own rig?????. We will never be on the same side of that argument. The DriveRack PA makes my type of use easy. Not sure it works as well for that other.
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RR, there are limiters or compressors or both? I don't recall seeing limiters.
The compressor can be adjusted to be a limiter:
http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/processing/limiter/
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I'm one of those who only use subs to extend the PA range downward. Most people use them to add stupid amounts of excessive bass. If the drummer really wanted to sound like that, wouldn't they bring their own rig?????. We will never be on the same side of that argument. The DriveRack PA makes my type of use easy. Not sure it works as well for that other.
Having subs on an aux send doesn't change the balance of a given system unless you want it to. Setup by the book, aux sub system response will be identical to a "standard" setup with subs treated like a regular bandpass on a multi-way crossover. The advantages of aux subs are:
1. keeping low frequency "gak" out of the subs from open mic sources that cannot be completely eliminated by high pass filter which in turn...
2. saves subwoofer headroom by not reproducing low frequency information from mics you don't want in the subs anyway
The more open mics you have on a standard system, the more aggregate low frequency information gets into the subs.
With aux fed subs, only the sources that need subwoofer reproduction are sent to the subs. Nothing else. This tends to increase system clarity and headroom. On big systems where you have a lot of PA and a lot sub, it's almost essential in my opinion because vocal mic plosives getting into the subs can sound tremendous. Aux based subs fix that issue without having to resort to drastic high passing of the offending channel that can suck the warmth out of the vocal tone because the plosive can't reach the subs.
But by all means, do what works for you. But don't assume that folks running aux subs are in it just to overwhelm you with subwoofers. They may be doing it for the exact opposite reason.
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Wasn't commenting on Aux fed subs. Was complaining on kick in the chest. I really hate that. Who thought that was a good idea? (Don't really want an answer.) First time I felt that was at Fiddler's green for a concert that included Emerson, Lake and Palmer and Deep Purple. Not good. Next time I'll bring binoculars and sit way in the back away from the audio assault.
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Wasn't commenting on Aux fed subs. Was complaining on kick in the chest. I really hate that.
Opps! Carry on... ;)
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Greg I'm with you on that. I think the only concern on the DL series is that you can't bind more than two channels. So to have a single point for overall FOH sound control you need to squeeze everything into L&R. Using L for low (Subs) and R for the rest (Tops) you can have it all. Separate mono channels to the tops and subs. Use the least used feature of the mixer called pan and you can separate the sounds that only go to subs split it if you want to or send the rest to the tops. Any decent amp or powered speaker will accommodate that. You can even send it on to the DRPA it accepts dual mono in, at least on my DRPA+. The guy in the red shirt's work flow will have you separating drums, metal etc., instruments and Vox to the extend that is possible with the mixer to control the balance of the mix and volume. L&R should be a last resort. Between sub-mixes and DCA's that's 8.
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Hi Folks,
I have been mixing subs-on-an-aux for about fifteen years.
Some folks link the sub-aux-master with the L/R master, but usually I control these separately.
If wanted, on the DL1608 The L/R master and sub-aux-master could be controlled by a single VCA.
I often have delay-fills, and occasionally center-fills, on auxes as well. These ARE linked with the L/R master with a VCA.
Thanks and good health, Weogo