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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: kencasino on September 13, 2015, 05:11:46 PM

Title: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on September 13, 2015, 05:11:46 PM
I would like to know what your setup for lead vocal is on the 1608
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: RoadRanger on September 13, 2015, 06:15:52 PM
One of my bands was using a pair of L1's last night - dunno what you mean about "setup for lead vocal", it's pretty much the same for any PA or mixer?
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Wynnd on September 14, 2015, 02:55:03 AM
Rendition went to using Bose L1s.  Got stupid loud at the same time. (iphone no longer registered useable db levels.)  They're using a Presonus 24.4.2 mixer and probably don't have a computer hooked up at gigs.  (Means they don't see the value and most sound guys would understand.)
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on September 14, 2015, 03:45:28 AM
We are starting with an LD Maui 28 then probably a second one with the 1608.  just wanted to know the starting point on eq on the 1608
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Wynnd on September 14, 2015, 05:55:36 AM
I start by making my system flat.  I use a DriveRack PA and PX for those tasks.  Then the mic EQs have a lot that can be done to taylor the characteristics you might want.  this whole thing is so subjective at this point.  Gotta trust your ears for something.
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on September 15, 2015, 11:35:51 AM
Hi guys

Juggling the purchase of two maui 28 over a 44'

My heart says go with a single 44, but  brain says doubling up of 44 could lead to castration.


 is anyone using a 44?

Cheers

Kev
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on September 24, 2015, 08:57:10 AM
Well I heard the Maui 28 last night, very good for small gigs and the sound does sound pretty well distributed around the room,

I then had the pleasure to listen to a pair of lifeless 12 inch plastic  boxes on stands,

Yukk.
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Greg C. on September 25, 2015, 12:44:01 AM
Well I heard the Maui 28 last night, very good for small gigs and the sound does sound pretty well distributed around the room,

I then had the pleasure to listen to a pair of lifeless 12 inch plastic  boxes on stands,

Yukk.

Not all plastic boxes are lifeless. EV makes some pretty decent ones and RCF makes some truly pro high output boxes with great sound.
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on September 25, 2015, 11:42:35 AM
Yes I should have said they where thomanns own range, without any  subs , a situation where many plastic boxes also sound lifeless,

Personally I like the FBT gear, but  in general  12 "  speakers on sticks without sub, sounds  horrible to me, unless it's for a quiz or bingo.

 :)
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Greg C. on September 25, 2015, 02:01:00 PM
Yes I should have said they where thomanns own range, without any  subs , a situation where many plastic boxes also sound lifeless,

Personally I like the FBT gear, but  in general  12 "  speakers on sticks without sub, sounds  horrible to me, unless it's for a quiz or bingo.

 :)

I've heard good things about FBT. As far as subs, I think any system sound better with them including arena sized, so long as they're called for as far as genre of course :)
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on September 29, 2015, 05:58:38 PM
Thanks mate.

Sorry away on holiday. Forgot to check back.
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 02, 2015, 01:07:27 PM
Purchased the Maui 28 and used it last night,

Brilliant for non wembley stadium gigs,

 :)
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 03, 2015, 12:09:38 AM
we tried it at a gig outdoors last Saturday, lot of feedback problems with our placement from lead singer
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 03, 2015, 12:12:03 AM
I should also sat that we ordered another 28
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 03, 2015, 09:08:37 AM
Hi ken

I managed to do an inside and outside of a restaurant the other night, I could have done with another column but I got away with a single, it's a bit weird working in mono but I will get used to it I guess, and people eating their dinner which is a lot of my gigs, don't seem to mind.

Good luck

Kev
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 03, 2015, 02:45:55 PM
thanks Kev, we are going to get this solved before the next gig on the 23rd.  the second column should allow us to get the volume we need without generating feedback.  i have a friend who runs 2 Bose columns and he said bose tech recommended getting Sure Beta mics and that solved his problem
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 22, 2015, 09:15:31 AM
Hi Ken

Sorry mate, not been here for a while

I hope the extra column sorts your issues, I would guess one quality mic versus another, shouldn't really make much difference and would guess you could sort this by relocating the singer or column,

Good luck

Kev
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 22, 2015, 03:46:51 PM
after a few hours of trying different microphones in the garage, we came up with the following conclusions.

Placement of the columns as far to the left or right of the singers as possible is critical (duh) we tilted the system only as far as to have the edge of the cone of sound reach the lead vocalist (about 20 degrees)

One of my friends has been using a Bose system for a year and had a lot of feedback too.  the Bose people recommended that he try the new beta 87A condenser mic.  We did tests of Sure SM57 and 58, AKG condenser mic and two different senheiser mics, and the Sure Beta87A.  The 87A was indeed far above all the others in feedback rejection and clarity.  The lead singer was blown away by the results we got from the system.

I will post the results of the next gig here.
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 23, 2015, 09:06:39 AM
Wow I am surprised that it made so much difference, but there you go, you live and learn. 😊

Good luck Ken
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Weogo on October 23, 2015, 04:51:39 PM
Hi Ken,

In this situation, any decent super- or hyper-cardioid mic will work about as well as the Beta87A.
AKG D5
Audio Techinca AE-6100
Audix OM6
EV ND-767
Sennheiser E845
Shure Beta58
And more.

It all boils down to having the appropriate pattern mic for a particular situation.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 23, 2015, 04:58:33 PM
Thanks, I was considering the Beta 58, but figured I had better use the one the lead singer liked ;) I have caught enough hell from the band over the DL, the in-ears, and the Array, if you know what I mean.  the average age in the band is around 65 so nuff said?
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: WK154 on October 23, 2015, 10:49:28 PM
Well sounds like your well into teaching old dogs new tricks so why stop there. Next stop would be head mikes such as Garth's Crown CM-11 or just a countryman. That way it doesn't matter where they're pointing their heads or mics. Feedback will be significantly reduced.  It does prevent using the mic for different effects if they're into that.
I'm aware that I'm a day late and a dollar short on the Maui 28 buy's but for those contemplating a buy first educate yourself on this technology. It seems that the latest fad is a repackaging of arrays and subs that have been around for ages. One of the "shipping soon" entries from TurboSound iP2000 has some new signal delivery features. I'm a fan of repackaging for convenience especially with wheels (my friends at 74) , but sound still has to come first. The only new approach to this has been at the high end with arena sound systems ( DSP processing systems) or this
 http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php 
 JBL holds the patents on this and they offer arrays in the CBT series the rest are just the straight arrays some with twists but no new science behind it. There are companies out there trying to sell you on the idea that they defy the laws of physics but don't buy into that.
Grec C. I would have agreed with you on the genera until last night when I went to a performance of the "Home Free" a Capella group. I would have to say that they would be just another group without a significant amount of subs. The four part harmony with a bass that on a good day can hit 30Hz and a Beat-boxer that can almost match him was awesome. So it depends on the talent's range not the genera because the a Capella women's group I do sound for can barely hit 120Hz. Subs do nothing for them.
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 24, 2015, 11:44:19 AM
Hi William

I know exactly what you are saying about the popularity of these line array or whatever you want to call these vertical columns, but for me it was not a fad, I build a lot of cabs,  and always use a minimum of a bi amped rig at all my gigs, the problem at the type of venue that the Maui is ideally intended for in my opinion ( restaurants) is that conventional rigs look ugly and often sound rotten, and the people are often there to eat and not listen to a singer.  I can only liken the sound of a good pa set really low to driving a Porsche everywhere at ten miles an hour, imho people sitting by a sub with a 15 and 2 mid top, on top get an ear bashing whilst those on the back hear nothing. So a few years ago I built a column pa and it sounded better at lower volume and did throw better than a conventional rig, so it was just a matter of time for me that I would splash the cash and buy a proper version. I wouldn't dare do a big gig with my single Maui, I think it would suffer, but I am really happy with it in a 70 seat restaurant or average bar, which here I Spain is the size of a double garage. So it's horses for courses I guess.

Cheers

Kev
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 24, 2015, 02:28:44 PM
Kev, I don't know the exact science of figuring it out, but adding the second one really makes a huge difference in the sound.  I know that these  are made for a smaller audience, but I have watched a friend for over a year running two Bose rigs and they were really loud. any venue that we play that has 200 or more seating has a house system.  I cannot think of a venue that we have played in the last five years that two of these would not suffice.  I think that they were made especially for me and our band of old men. http://rowdyjohnsonband.com/presskit/index.htm (http://rowdyjohnsonband.com/presskit.htm)
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: WK154 on October 24, 2015, 05:52:38 PM
Ken the tech answer for a second speaker set is all of 3dB **. This is the best scenario since it could also reduce the room sound with phase issues. Best results probably in outdoor use since it provides more distribution and less feedback. In small indoor venues I'd go with a 44 instead of two 28's IMHO. Placement of these unit's behind the performers is simply asking for trouble as you can attest to but suggested by the manufacturers such as Bose ::).
I wish Rowdy the best with his recent problem.
** correction we are talking about a line array which will give you 6dB as opposed to regular speaker types 3dB.
That CRS syndrome gets around.

No worries
Bill
P.S. the above link is broken, needs /index
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 24, 2015, 05:58:37 PM
Thanks. I forgot the link. Been tied up with so much stuff lately I am starting to get CRS syndrome


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

by the way, went right by you last week.  we went to port huineme and dropped the fifth wheel the drove up the PCH (bucket list) then out to vegas via 126 and then 15
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: WK154 on October 24, 2015, 07:33:31 PM
Yah sure did pass me on the 15 coming back from Vegas. Spend the week at the yearly International Sweet Adeline's competition at the MGM Grand. Wave next time  :).
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 25, 2015, 09:08:23 AM
Cheers Ken

I would like a second set but that's not on the cards, I agree with William, a second source would add 3 db, but would make a noticeable improvement I think, despite the dispersion claims of these devices,


however I would say in different situations a second column would be significantly more practical and efficient . I did do a restaurant where I had 70 people behind me and fifty in front, splaying the single  column so that everyone got a bit was a task but I got through.

For big gigs I have access to a Meyer pa, it's nice, but not on my back, and I am at the stage where I might not even take the bigger gigs any more.

Cheers everyone

Kev
Title: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 25, 2015, 02:11:40 PM
At least two of us can still lift stuff, and we usually take a merchandise/roadie with us so I don't have to lift.

Still working with pain management to see what they can do for my post laminectomy syndrome.


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Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: WK154 on October 26, 2015, 03:16:11 AM
Found a good explanation for standard small format line arrays (L1 Maui etc.) vs. CBT (constant beam-width transducer) arrays. Easy to understand from a guy with a little experience.  :)
http://www.prosoundtraining.com/site/blog/small-format-line-arrays/

No worries
Bill
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 26, 2015, 09:01:25 AM
Hi bill

There is video on YouTube where car vin  ;) actually compares two of their own PA systems, one conventional the other a column and the column displays much more even on axis distribution of sound,


Kev
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: WK154 on October 26, 2015, 05:43:25 PM
In case you missed it I corrected the original post on dB loudness increase. I got involved in line arrays about 15 yrs ago or more with the Bose MA12/MB4 "Pro" line. Not by choice as my wife's school decided to buy into this. It's still a mess today and whenever I had to deal with an important event I brought in my own gear. The install by a well known local company was incorrect and I finally convinced them to try to correct the problem, unfortunately their concept was a bunch of guys with wire and drills as the solution, no measurements of any kind other than "where do you want them, oh we can't put them there". I tried to co-ordinate Bose and LAUSD availability without success or even to get Bose to run their simulation software for the auditorium to no avail. I offered to run it for them but they insisted that only their techs would know how to use it.  ::) Their own chief engineer's White paper on the arrays showed different results from advertising hype. Hence my dislike for Bose and their snake-oil sales. >:D
Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: kencasino on October 26, 2015, 05:49:39 PM
Lol. I did not see your correction, but glad you did it. That video was great too. I was having a hard time resolving your original 3db increase with what my ears were telling me. Thank you and Kev for all your responses to this thread. Putting it all to use on November first.


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Title: Re: Anyone using LD Maui 28 systems or Bose L1
Post by: Kev tyler on October 28, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
Hi guys

It's a funny old thing sound, in the uk we don't have the huge auditoriums that we see in your American schools, well saying that it's been thirty odd years since I was in school, and we were lucky   to have a pair of 12s on stands for our events in the olden days, everything took place in a reverberant gym, nasty whatever rig you use?As for proper line arrays and such, I know they are hated in the industry but from my own experience as a band member, the best outside sound I ever received was from a load of twin tens and wave guide cabs, arrayed in a j and flown from above, aided by twin 18 subs, all active,  supplied by a two man outfit, this is versus a huge stack of horn loaded cabs a generator the size of a house and ten crew , which we often used.

It's all horses for courses now for me, I want to travel light and get in and get out, I know I could have built a better sounding rig with 1200 euros of quality parts, but I feel many people in the audience don't care about the show or the sound and prefer a seat at the back, so...

Cheers bill, good luck Ken.