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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Keyboard Magic on January 21, 2016, 07:41:35 PM

Title: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: Keyboard Magic on January 21, 2016, 07:41:35 PM
Anyone seen these yet? Maybe a 16 channel version is in the works?

http://mackie.com/node/609

Very interesting indeed!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: sam.spoons on January 21, 2016, 11:46:29 PM
No chance :) but the DL806's days are numbered.....

I wonder if we'll finally get a 'droid app for the DLs now?
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 21, 2016, 11:53:21 PM
Hope not this dumbed down Kindergarten mixer will never make it for serious work. I don't get it, they have a perfectly good platform to build on and now this? Goes along with the boom box product. Good they finally unshackled themselves from Apple with Android. One step forward and two back.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 22, 2016, 12:42:18 AM
Hope not this dumbed down Kindergarten mixer will never make it for serious work. I don't get it, they have a perfectly good platform to build on and now this? Goes along with the boom box product. Good they finally unshackled themselves from Apple with Android. One step forward and two back.

As I said elsewhere, the ProDX4 and ProDX8 look perfect for a certain market segment -- singer/songwriters and duos. Just because it doesn't interest you, doesn't mean it's crap.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 22, 2016, 03:13:58 AM
I view this in the category of iSTUDIO, IO DOCK II and iTrack dock at double their price. Are you inferring that singer/songwriters and Duo's are less demanding? My interest are also not relevant here. I don't see the point of having a very limited control surface next to a iPad or Android tablet/phone. Not shown to make it work are the power brick and Wifi AP.
Kev they also forgot that FX foot-switch which makes it even more useless.  ;)

Correction: Only Bluetooth wireless connection no Wifi.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 22, 2016, 03:24:51 AM
I view this in the category of iSTUDIO, IO DOCK II and iTrack dock at double their price. Are you inferring that singer/songwriters and Duo's are less demanding? My interest are also not relevant here. I don't see the point of having a very limited control surface next to a iPad or Android tablet/phone.

I'm saying that, in general, their usage and needs are different. I can probably safely assume that the sonic quality will be as good or better than current Mackie offerings. In case you hadn't noticed, these devices do use a phone for the user interface, with the option of spinning a knob or poking a button if desired.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 22, 2016, 03:42:46 AM
"The iPad or Android Tablet/phone" was noticed. Why would someone need a button to select a channel to view a meter when all of them are there on the Phone/tablet? Just so you can turn a knob to adjust level!
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 22, 2016, 04:05:25 AM
"The iPad or Android Tablet/phone" was noticed. Why would someone need a button to select a channel to view a meter when all of them are there on the Phone/tablet? Just so you can turn a knob to adjust level!

Tactile, "analog" controls like knobs and switches are much easier to use in a hurry or when you're trying to play with two hands and make an adjustment with the third hand that you don't have, all while trying to maintain a connection with the audience.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 22, 2016, 04:18:00 AM
"The iPad or Android Tablet/phone" was noticed. Why would someone need a button to select a channel to view a meter when all of them are there on the Phone/tablet? Just so you can turn a knob to adjust level!

A further example ... I'm a keyboard player as well as a live sound engineer, and I really can see one of these in my keyboard rig to control my mix and personal monitor. During an actual gig, all I need is the ability to control relative levels. Things like EQ, etc., don't get touched. But, being able to set them to my liking and save them would be handy (I'm assuming that this app will be able to save mixes like Master Fader).

I don't see these as a replacement for a DL (or other) mixer for a band, or any situation where someone is handling FOH mixing. It's a special use system, and as such, I think it's pretty well thought out. In the real world in my region, there are a lot more solo/duo acts getting booked regularly than full bands, and these mixers, along with a pair of powered speakers, makes for a pretty nice system for this application.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: Keyboard Magic on January 22, 2016, 02:43:21 PM
In another relevant post with similar leanings, I mentioned that these might be the digital replacement for the VLZ series.

I agree, that for keyboardists, accordion players (myself) and soloists doing a one man band gig I think these new small format digital mixers would be the ideal replacement for this kind of scenario.

I currently use a 402-VLZ3 mixer for quick tweaks when I need to without fussing over a full size DL1608, especially when space is a big concern for some venues. I think this new digital platform would fit the bill perfectly. I can't see them being used for FOH mixing.

But I hope maybe Mackie is making changes in the right direction and possibly even there is a redesign in the works for the DL series mixers. NAMM will tell?  ???
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 24, 2016, 06:36:25 PM
"The iPad or Android Tablet/phone" was noticed. Why would someone need a button to select a channel to view a meter when all of them are there on the Phone/tablet? Just so you can turn a knob to adjust level!

Tactile, "analog" controls like knobs and switches are much easier to use in a hurry or when you're trying to play with two hands and make an adjustment with the third hand that you don't have, all while trying to maintain a connection with the audience.

That's why your third and fourth hand has been used for centuries called your feet. I guess Mackie forgot that part.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 24, 2016, 06:48:58 PM
That's why your third and fourth hand has been used for centuries called your feet. I guess Mackie forgot that part.

For most of us, even the feet are in use when playing ... I need one to stand one, the other for volume, sustain, and page turn. And two hands for playing. The musicians' body really does need a couple more arms/hands....
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 24, 2016, 11:44:24 PM
That's why your third and fourth hand has been used for centuries called your feet. I guess Mackie forgot that part.

For most of us, even the feet are in use when playing ... I need one to stand one, the other for volume, sustain, and page turn. And two hands for playing. The musicians' body really does need a couple more arms/hands....

We're all getting on in age so let me suggest a bench and a Yamaha Montage. That way you can have a full orchestra live and do it all sitting down. Don't know what they're asking for one, bet it's not cheap.  :)
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: Keyboard Magic on January 25, 2016, 12:42:05 AM
What a remarkable keyboard, just did some searching on it. Quite interesting. The 61 note Montage 6 has a suggested US retail price of $3499.00

Here's a link for any interested parties:

http://usa.yamaha.com/news_events/music_production/yamaha_montage_synthesizer/

And another with more details:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/01/16/yamaha-montage-synthesizer-debuting-at-2016-namm-show/

Enjoy!   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 25, 2016, 12:50:23 AM
We're all getting on in age so let me suggest a bench and a Yamaha Montage. That way you can have a full orchestra live and do it all sitting down. Don't know what they're asking for one, bet it's not cheap.  :)

I've finally settled on a Roland V-Combo VR-09 for my performance keyboard. It has exactly the things I need for what I play, and it's extremely lightweight (I think my keyboard stand weighs more than it does!). I have a bench, and a taller stool, but I hate sitting when I play live. I've cut my whole rig weight down to about 75lbs, and two trips from the car, and I'm down to about a 10 minute setup and teardown.

The Montage series starts at $3K, too rich for my blood at this stage of my so-called "career".

The PA is a different story. It still weighs most of a half-ton (although I've significantly cut the weight and size back there, too).
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: ToH2002 on January 26, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
Hope not this dumbed down Kindergarten mixer will never make it for serious work. I don't get it, they have a perfectly good platform to build on and now this?

Well, essentially, this is the mixing section of a FreePlay or a REACH respectively. May actually come in handy for small setups (simply connect an MP3 player and a microphone to my PA for a garden party without setting up the full-fledged DL 1608 with Wifi AP). But definitely will never compete with the DL series - different application scenario.

Horses for courses, I guess. They built the technology for FreePlay and REACH, now testing if there's a market for it without the P.A.. We'll see if people adopt it. I might actually get the smaller version for the typical "canned music & microphone" setting (sports events in my case) where my FreePlay is a bit too weak and I need to carry a more powerful active speaker. These mini-mixers with their click-and-turn interface will be simple enough to operate for most people at these events, where master fader is a bit too complex.

Cheers,

Torsten

 
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 26, 2016, 06:15:16 PM
Well finally a price for the 4 input $199 and the 8 input $299 from the NAMM demo. Did Berry drop the price of the XR12 to $249 for this? The Mackie Website still has $259 and $389 for them respectively. So which is it Mackie? Also after reading closer and inferring there is only one method of wireless communication, Bluetooth. Unfortunately  a level III unit intended for Jawbone level use (30 ft.). For those unfamiliar with Bluetooth levels a III is 1 Meter, II is 10 Meters and I is 100 Meters. The least that they should have used is level II. For a higher quality sound capability they might have included Apt-X and certainly more than one receiver (speakers).
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 26, 2016, 07:58:57 PM
Well finally a price for the 4 input $199 and the 8 input $299 from the NAMM demo. Did Berry drop the price of the XR12 to $249 for this? The Mackie Website still has $259 and $389 for them respectively. So which is it Mackie? Also after reading closer and inferring there is only one method of wireless communication, Bluetooth. Unfortunately  a level III unit intended for Jawbone level use (30 ft.). For those unfamiliar with Bluetooth levels a III is 10 Meters, II is 30 Meters and I is 100 Meters. The least that they should have used is level II. For a higher quality sound capability they might have included Apt-X and certainly more than one receiver (speakers).

The prices have been on the B&H site for several days now. Not sure why this was a mystery. I quoted them here on the forum several days ago, I believe. As far as pricing on the Mackie web site, I can't find it anywhere. That said, there are often differences between the price a manufacture lists, and the actual "street" price.

Again, I think you're missing the point of these units -- the solo/duo/maybe trio, mixing from the stage. I do agree that the choice to use Bluetooth 3 was a mistake, but not because of range. Bluetooth 4 has been available for development for close to two years now, and BT 4 hardware has been available for over a year. Bluetooth 4.2 would have easily allowed for multiple simultaneous connections for control and bi-direction audio at high quality levels. As a bonus, BT 4 also would have allowed a range of 100-150 feet.

Multiple audio paths via Bluetooth, frankly, would be fantastic if it were reliable. I'd love to be able to eliminate all those pesky speaker cables from the stage (of course, there would still have to be power cables run out to each speaker, so that may be a moot point).
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 27, 2016, 06:50:08 AM
I think Mackie missed the point not me. If they are targeting the Solo, Duo, Trio stage act they forgot the external foot-switch control. For those wanting to have someone walk about with their phones to control the mixer from the audience the 30 ft. range misses the mark. Distance has little to do with version #. I discussed the Bluetooth marketing scam elsewhere in this forum and won't repeat it here. I've been using BT since V1.2 and also others with success including multiple units. The limited amount of control from the "Pro" surface makes it questionable. You get far more control with more phone choices with a lower priced XR12 than the ProDX-8. FYI here is Mackie's pricing and I didn't imply it was a mystery.  Since it's not on the street we don't have a street price.
 http://mackie.com/live/mackie-introduces-prodx-wireless-digital-mixers
Nice Synth the Roland especially for the price.
Cheers
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 27, 2016, 07:40:24 AM
If you want to see someone that hit the mark for Solo, Duo, Trio or composers look at this.
http://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/k-mix/
If I where in that category the K-mix would be worth it.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 27, 2016, 04:06:03 PM
I think Mackie missed the point not me. If they are targeting the Solo, Duo, Trio stage act they forgot the external foot-switch control. For those wanting to have someone walk about with their phones to control the mixer from the audience the 30 ft. range misses the mark. Distance has little to do with version #. I discussed the Bluetooth marketing scam elsewhere in this forum and won't repeat it here. I've been using BT since V1.2 and also others with success including multiple units. The limited amount of control from the "Pro" surface makes it questionable. You get far more control with more phone choices with a lower priced XR12 than the ProDX-8. FYI here is Mackie's pricing and I didn't imply it was a mystery.  Since it's not on the street we don't have a street price.
 http://mackie.com/live/mackie-introduces-prodx-wireless-digital-mixers
Nice Synth the Roland especially for the price.
Cheers

This is not for someone who's going to have someone walk the crowd and mix from an iPhone. This is for mixing from the stage, with the iPhone either in the cradle of the unit, or on a mic stand clip, probably within 10 feet of the base unit. But, probably better that we agree to disagree on who's missing the point. This could go on forever, to no one's benefit...  :) 

Regards to Bluetooth, I'm involved with applications that use BT for remote control operations in other areas with great reliability over distances of 100' or more. This was not possible before BT 4.0, and more specifically, BT 4.2. It's really quite impressive how much can now be done using BT for point-to-point ad-hoc control applications.

I missed this pricing from Mackie. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. As I suspected, this is "list" pricing. Street pricing will be lower. The $199.99 and $299.99 street pricing is posted on the B&H and Musicians' Friend web sites, and I have confirmed this pricing with B&H staff. The price will be $199.99 for the ProDX4, and $299.99 for the ProDX8.

Since there are no direct equivalents in the Behringer line, price comparisons are completely irrelevant, though the models that are somewhat close are actually more expensive than the closest Mackie ProDX mixer. The Soundcraft Ui12 bears some resemblance, I/O and feature-wise, to the ProDX8, at the same price. But, again, none of these "equivalents" offer a user interface that allows "eyes free" operation of basic controls in addition to the phone/tablet UI, and therefore, comparison is irrelevant.

A good friend of mine works for the firm that reps Music Group, so maybe I'll see if I can get one of the little Behringer units on eval for a couple of weeks. I've been keeping my eye on the app, and am still not particularly impressed, as much as I do like what their hardware promises. But, I still think there's value in tactile controls for quick adjustments in this application, which the Behringers lack.

I should add that, had Behringer shipped the original X16 (yes, sixteen) when initially promised, I would have purchased that, and for my use, the XR18 feature set is almost perfect (I would like a few more XLR inputs, though I don't need/want 32). If the software were better....

For a "big" board, I have to say I really like the X32, and even the Midas M32 and Pro1/2 (although I really don't see why anyone would buy the M32, but that's another argument). Having used the Allen & Heaths, Yamahas, Presonus, I find them, from a user perspective, superior to all of their competition. Again, the downfall for me is in the phone/tablet apps.

Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 27, 2016, 04:21:55 PM
A good friend of mine works for the firm that reps Music Group, so maybe I'll see if I can get one of the little Behringer units on eval for a couple of weeks. I've been keeping my eye on the app, and am still not particularly impressed, as much as I do like what their hardware promises. But, I still think there's value in tactile controls for quick adjustments in this application, which the Behringers lack.

Never mind -- won't bother. I just remembered that there is no iPhone app for the Behringer XR mixers. In fact, in these price ranges, only Mackie support the iPhone. Behringer does support the Ultranet thing, but that kind of defeats the purpose.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 27, 2016, 09:39:42 PM
I guess we can at least agree to not agree on the subject discussed, a good thing. To make the assumption that " This could go on forever, to no one's benefit...  :)  " is not yours or for that matter mine to make. Forums are for an exchange of ideas, experience and disagreements.
Not to make assumptions about it's intended use here is Mackie's take.
Olswang commented. “ProDX was designed to deliver a powerful digital mixer with the ease of use of an analog mixer, all at an incredible price, perfect for solo performers, small bands and commercial applications.”
We can interpret small bands and commercial applications many ways.
Not sure what you mean by "eyes free" but here is Mackie again.
"Both models feature an integrated control bridge, offering a convenient place to set a phone or tablet at just the right angle for keeping an eye on the mix."
Kind of hard to do " eyes free " sight read and play unless you're Stevie Wonder. :)
I suppose that my Zoom (modem company not Samson) models 4311 and 4312 a class 1 device rated at a 100 meters (330 feet) and V2.0+EDR at 3 Mbps never existed (mine still works). Like I stated I've been using Bluetooth since it's inception. I also helped develop the USAF MATS field communications system back in the 90's which Bluetooth was build on (Spread Spectrum technology). I consider it more reliable than Wifi. The Bluetooth Piconet also handles up to 8 devices.
I do suspect that your opinion is based on available single chip implementations available in the market place not on what the spec defined or some companies produced. IIRC the power specifications (part of the distance performance) has been there since the Core V1.0 spec. Just because some engineers can't add power amplification to their product only makes it a limitation to their product. Not here for a pissing contest just trying to keep the record straight and prevent myths from propagating.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: gerenm63 on January 27, 2016, 10:05:57 PM
I guess we can at least agree to not agree on the subject discussed, a good thing. To make the assumption that " This could go on forever, to no one's benefit...  :)  " is not yours or for that matter mine to make. Forums are for an exchange of ideas, experience and disagreements.
Not to make assumptions about it's intended use here is Mackie's take.
Olswang commented. “ProDX was designed to deliver a powerful digital mixer with the ease of use of an analog mixer, all at an incredible price, perfect for solo performers, small bands and commercial applications.”
We can interpret small bands and commercial applications many ways.
Not sure what you mean by "eyes free" but here is Mackie again.
"Both models feature an integrated control bridge, offering a convenient place to set a phone or tablet at just the right angle for keeping an eye on the mix."
Kind of hard to do " eyes free " sight read and play unless you're Stevie Wonder. :)
I suppose that my Zoom (modem company not Samson) models 4311 and 4312 a class 1 device rated at a 100 meters (330 feet) and V2.0+EDR at 3 Mbps never existed (mine still works). Like I stated I've been using Bluetooth since it's inception. I also helped develop the USAF MATS field communications system back in the 90's which Bluetooth was build on (Spread Spectrum technology). I consider it more reliable than Wifi. The Bluetooth Piconet also handles up to 8 devices.
I do suspect that your opinion is based on available single chip implementations available in the market place not on what the spec defined or some companies produced. IIRC the power specifications (part of the distance performance) has been there since the Core V1.0 spec. Just because some engineers can't add power amplification to their product only makes it a limitation to their product. Not here for a pissing contest just trying to keep the record straight and prevent myths from propagating.

I remember Zoom modems quite well, thank you very much. I've been working with RF data technologies since the early 80's, before moving on to large-scale networks. I did that kind of work for 15 years, until I suffered a nervous breakdown, and basically lost my mind. From that point on, I left the world of data, and concentrated more on technology application. And, I fell back to my more artistic interests, which predate my tech journey. My opinions on Bluetooth are base on a combination of theory and reality... :)

Moving on.

Let me ask you a question: Do you perform regularly? By that, I mean, play an instrument on stage in front of people? I do, and have, for over 35 years. I've been doing live sound and lights and stage, radio, and television production literally since childhood. It gives me a different perspective on all of this than a lot of people who do sound or, seemingly, chase gear for gears sake.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: WK154 on January 28, 2016, 12:27:50 AM
I started in AVL in 7th grade (Stagecrafters) all aspects. Actually the V was F for film back then. That makes it about 60 years part time. I never made it a profession went into Scientific instruments/computers/automation and never looked back. I did however continue my interest in AVL. After retirement 14 years ago I resumed my hobby and side job. Over the years I have produced hundreds of shows and performances as the FOH Engineer/producer/director and grunt. My current focus is mostly studio work (build several). My last gig with a XR18 was Saturday on a Dinner/Show sold out at 323. Several Pro performers on the show plus a choir (regional winner SAI headed to an International competition in the fall). Headed to Auckland NZ before that for a International Quartet competition (YWIH). My wife is the performer/mentor. More vocal and theater than instruments but not exclusive. I do get to hear the gripes about instruments and certainly hear them here. I design sound systems and implement them so I'm always on the lookout for new gear. I am a AES associate.
Title: Re: A Sign of Things To Come?
Post by: Michael Welter on January 28, 2016, 04:50:39 PM
I can see applications for these mixers for small, coffee house, performers. It's low price and small size make it easily accessible for this market. But for someone like me, who just does FOH mixing, I'll stick with my DL.