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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: slystewart on May 14, 2017, 04:05:42 PM

Title: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: slystewart on May 14, 2017, 04:05:42 PM
I'm using a DL32R and as the bass player for the last few months had to work the mix from stage  and learning as I go along not my choice but  doing ok so far.  . band member asked about compression on stage monitors as this band has two front men ....im not sure about this  any help on this  Thanks
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: shufflebeat on May 14, 2017, 09:03:44 PM
The problems with compression in the monitors are (in musicians' terms):

1 - takes some of the cut from the monitors, encouraging greater volume to compensate, inviting feedback.
2 - takes some of the dynamic edge off a performance, encouraging harder playing than necessary.
3 - makes everything disappear into everything else.

Some of these might be artistically pleasing but it takes restraint and understanding to stay on the right side of subtle. Better to EQ well and control your own dynamics by performance technique.

Compression/limiting can be useful to protect speakers by fine tuning gain structure but is not a substitute for good planning.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: nedorama on May 15, 2017, 01:09:47 AM
No compression for me on monitors - otherwise how do you know if you're too loud, especially with 2 front men? They need to learn to blend and the only way to really do that effectively is to control dynamics the old school way - singing softer, backing off the mic, and hearing what the other person is doing.

I'd work to ensure they can hear their vocals above everything in the mix before adding compression.

what vocal mics and what monitors are you using?
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: 4mal on May 16, 2017, 04:12:23 AM
Generally it is a great way to have a singer blow their voice out.  Uncompressed, uneffected monitors are the way I roll...
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: dpdan on May 16, 2017, 05:31:54 AM
shufflebeat,
so well stated!
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: stevegarris on May 16, 2017, 04:43:36 PM
A contrarian view I suppose, but I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH. I typically use compression sparingly, but aggressively if required. My monitor mix is excellent... everyone is always very happy and no singer has "blown his or her vocals" while I was mixing. It is imperative that the same channel EQ correction takes place in the singers mic as the FOH, IMO. YMMV
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: nedorama on May 16, 2017, 04:54:52 PM
A contrarian view I suppose, but I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH. I typically use compression sparingly, but aggressively if required. My monitor mix is excellent... everyone is always very happy and no singer has "blown his or her vocals" while I was mixing. It is imperative that the same channel EQ correction takes place in the singers mic as the FOH, IMO. YMMV

Great that it works for you, but for most people, compression in the monitors doesn't work as vocalists don't learn dynamics, and if they do, they can't hear a difference in the monitors. It's even more important when you have multiple singers so they can learn to balance their levels. Slapping a compressor on their monitors defeats that purpose. What some will do is have dynamics on the mains and not on monitors, but not on both.

No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: dpdan on May 17, 2017, 03:51:19 AM
I practice the same approach as Steve,,, even though I said shufflebeat stated his position clearly.
I too use compression on vocals in mains and monitors and that same "identical" compression as well as EQ goes to their mixes.

More than one way to skin a cat  :)
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: stevegarris on May 17, 2017, 05:43:39 PM


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: nedorama on May 17, 2017, 05:54:13 PM


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

Steve - yes it is, so if you apply channel EQ or dynamics, it does get sent out to mains and monitors. If you mult the signal with an aux send, I believe you should be able to do different EQ or dynamics. Or, just have different dynamics for mains and monitors for all signals. At my level, I run the same EQ for both, but know of many folks who will run main and monitor EQ for a money channel (lead vocalist) on 2 separate channels.

As Joe Meek used to say, if it sounds good, it is good! Great to be able to have this kind of flexibility available in this small of a space.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: shufflebeat on May 17, 2017, 07:44:35 PM


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

That's confused me as well. Surely "pre DSP" is the setting I'm promoting. Signal to monitors is tapped before any processing (comp/EQ).

Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: stevegarris on May 17, 2017, 08:45:38 PM


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

If you mult the signal with an aux send, I believe you should be able to do different EQ or dynamics. Or, just have different dynamics for mains and monitors for all signals. At my level, I run the same EQ for both, but know of many folks who will run main and monitor EQ for a money channel (lead vocalist) on 2 separate channels.


I'm not sure what you're saying here: "mult the signal with an aux send". Also, I do not have enough channels to split every vocal channel, nor do I want to take the time to do that.
I still personally believe that my monitor and main mixes are excellent, due to my ability to effectively use the parametric channel EQ and compressors. I receive nothing but complements at every show, to the tune of "best ever" house guy & the like.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: nedorama on May 17, 2017, 09:10:25 PM
Steve -

What works for you is great, it may not be how I mix or how others mix. I wasn't commenting on how your mixes sound as I haven't heard them, and at my level, I couldn't really offer much.

Multing the signal is just a way of duplicating a signal on a mixer to perform different EQ, dynamics, etc. for different routing. If you have one money vocal channel it may or may not be worth it, but in your case I'd just stick with what works for you. I'm certainly not recommending changing your workflow.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: Weogo on May 18, 2017, 04:21:18 PM
Hi Steve,

I'm confused.

You wrote," I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH."

A) Compression and EQ are always active on L/R House channels.
B) If you switch a monitor mix to Pre DSP, you have no channel EQ or compression in the monitors, only the monitor master EQ.
C) So how can you have a Pre-DSP monitor mix, and the same compression and EQ in Monitors as FOH?

Years ago a Split to House and Monitor mixers was common, as was a separate monitor tech.
Alternately, XLR-Y cables were often used for splitting some inputs to two channels for mixing monitors from FOH.

Enter, in 2003, the modest-budget Yamaha 01V96 digital mixer, which allowed one analog input to be sent to two or more channels.
Only Gain and Pad were shared on the split channels, allowing for a virtual House mixer and another Monitor mixer on one console.

These days I still do some shows with smaller input counts on a DL1608, and pull out the XLR-Y cables.
Once the gig gets over a few inputs, I switch to the DL32R, which allows one input to be split to two channels.

I work with some vocalists that can sing fairly softly, and then so loud it will take your head off.
Modest compression on the house mix channel keeps the audience happy, no compression in the monitor mix channel keeps the vocalist happy.

Another use for split channels:
I work with a Fiddler who is a State Living Treasure, who does not hear high frequencies very well, and wants them turned up in the monitor.
While at the same time, to make the Fiddle sound good in the house, I am turning the High's down.(Also,
this is the channel that gets sent to other musicians on stage.)


Whenever I do an open mic show, one channel goes to house and monitors  ~  there just isn't time for dealing with separate channels.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: stevegarris on May 18, 2017, 05:50:00 PM
Hi Steve,

I'm confused.

You wrote," I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH."

A) Compression and EQ are always active on L/R House channels.
B) If you switch a monitor mix to Pre DSP, you have no channel EQ or compression in the monitors, only the monitor master EQ.
C) So how can you have a Pre-DSP monitor mix, and the same compression and EQ in Monitors as FOH?

Years ago a Split to House and Monitor mixers was common, as was a separate monitor tech.
Alternately, XLR-Y cables were often used for splitting some inputs to two channels for mixing monitors from FOH.

Enter, in 2003, the modest-budget Yamaha 01V96 digital mixer, which allowed one analog input to be sent to two or more channels.
Only Gain and Pad were shared on the split channels, allowing for a virtual House mixer and another Monitor mixer on one console.

These days I still do some shows with smaller input counts on a DL1608, and pull out the XLR-Y cables.
Once the gig gets over a few inputs, I switch to the DL32R, which allows one input to be split to two channels.

I work with some vocalists that can sing fairly softly, and then so loud it will take your head off.
Modest compression on the house mix channel keeps the audience happy, no compression in the monitor mix channel keeps the vocalist happy.

Another use for split channels:
I work with a Fiddler who is a State Living Treasure, who does not hear high frequencies very well, and wants them turned up in the monitor.
While at the same time, to make the Fiddle sound good in the house, I am turning the High's down.(Also,
this is the channel that gets sent to other musicians on stage.)


Whenever I do an open mic show, one channel goes to house and monitors  ~  there just isn't time for dealing with separate channels.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo

My bad - I said Pre but meant post! Yes, I'm familiar with splitting channels, but so far have not had the need for it. I might try it some day.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: stevegarris on May 18, 2017, 05:51:04 PM
All the more reason for me to get the DL32!
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: Weogo on May 18, 2017, 08:25:18 PM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the clarification.

I work with a number of musicians who like their monitors 'exactly like they were set at sound check', and
if I was running their sends post-fade and changed their level in the house mix, and hence monitor mix, they would not appreciate this.

The DL32R really is a good fit for how I mix!

Good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: shufflebeat on May 18, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
One fiddle player I work with (Barcus Berry piezo) who likes to use a Boss GE-7 EQ pedal before the DI. I don't have to do an awful lot with EQ on his channel so his wedge is pre-DSP - normal (for me).

Another fiddler with the same pickup goes straight into DI, leaving me in sole control of his FOH sound. I have to do some radical surgery on the signal to make it musical but it works well. If I put a pre-EQ signal in.his wedge it would sound thin and scratchy so his aux is on post-DSP to ensure his sound is reasonable. I could, of course EQ the wedge at the master EQ but he shares it with a flute player who needs the hi-mids.

Horses for courses.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: ToH2002 on May 18, 2017, 11:33:22 PM
Just a comment from a keyboarder/singer who doubles as mix tech for most of our gigs:

I actually like having a bit of compression on my monitor signal. I use IEMs, so feedback is not an issue, and the bit of compression helps me with two aspects:

So, it's not all bad - when you know what you're doing, you can very well be successful against the established wisdom - but you DO need a singer who knows how to deal with compression on his/her monitors and is used to that. Otherwise, you can very well end up with someone with ruined vocal cords - not something you want to be guilty of!

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: shufflebeat on May 19, 2017, 06:18:52 AM
+1

Some kind of limiting on IEMs is an absolute necessity and I'd much rather use the dl1608 compressor set wisely than the heavy-handed (but hit and miss) limiter on my fairly low-end dB tech unit.
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: stevegarris on May 19, 2017, 06:09:31 PM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the clarification.

I work with a number of musicians who like their monitors 'exactly like they were set at sound check', and
if I was running their sends post-fade and changed their level in the house mix, and hence monitor mix, they would not appreciate this.

The DL32R really is a good fit for how I mix!

Good health,  Weogo

The comments I typically hear from musicians regarding their monitors is that it started out great, and only got better as I mixed the show. Perfect EQing, and just the right amount of compression, along with a good overall mix, allows for excellent stage clarity and fidelity. YMMV
Title: Re: Compression onstage monitors
Post by: shufflebeat on May 19, 2017, 08:05:36 PM
I wish all the musos I worked with were all so considerate and polite. Sometimes I stand on a stage of beautifully balanced music, knowing this is a monitor mix I, as a musician, would love to have and when I ask, "how's that for you?" I get a silent gesture of "it'll do".

I find experienced musicians the most forthcoming because they know what a bad stage mix sounds like and they recognise good work when they see/hear it.

Sometimes you have to be your own worst critic but at other times you have to give yourself a hearty pat on the back when no-one else is switched on to the situation.