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Other Digital Mixers => Behringer X-Air => Topic started by: WK154 on November 26, 2017, 02:51:03 AM

Title: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on November 26, 2017, 02:51:03 AM
Well couldn't leave well enough alone and was going for a Ui24. Well being heavily invested in Behringer I decided otherwise. So my new acquisitions are none other than a M12, M18, and yes a X-Touch. The trial by fire is Dec. 2 Christmas show. The X-Touch won't be part of that. Totally battery powered.
The gear is :
2- JBL LA50 CBT's
XY from 2 ADK SP-1
XY from 2 JM27 Joe Meek
2 wireless Sennheiser E835's
M12 Mixer (in the mail)
Yamaha keyboard etc.
Video Q4n Zoom
A small enough venue of ~ 300 to not require the chorus to be mic'd.
I'll do a comparison (X-Air vs. Mxx)  after the holidays to see if was worth it all.

Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 03, 2017, 08:49:02 PM
Well the first Turkey a M12 died after 6 hrs. of AP wireless connection. Yes the Midas died (no WiFi). I'll finally will see what their service is about. The Behringer XR12 did just fine for the show. I needed the stereo playback feature or I would have used the M18. It just needs a lot of extra junk (laptop). Noise was not any problem in a live show. I bought it for use in the studio.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 09, 2017, 05:41:48 AM
Not so fast here. It seems that the MR12 managed to get into a state where in the AP position the MR12 would not issue a beacon (not visible to other devices). AFAIK there are no options to hide the SSID when the  MR12 is in DHCP (server) mode. Yet I found the beacon gone in AP mode (WiFi analyzer). Solution was a paperclip (reset). I was about to send the unit back but decided to give it one more chance and start with the basics. Lesson learned one more time. There may be some combination of actions that need to be explored that would cause this. After all it's a computer and software.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on November 02, 2018, 06:42:55 PM
Well the lesson learned is to follow your instincts. After many moons and a recent attempt to reuse the MR12 I found myself loosing connection again (takes a while (over 24hrs.) or lots of traffic). So I embarked on a more thorough  evaluation. Looks like I will find out what the Midas 10 yr. warranty is all about afterall. The MR12 Beacon looks more like a saw-tooth instead of what all other XR12/18 MR18 are giving (using Nuts-About-Nets Discovery software). No Software involved since there is no consistency between the MR12 and other units. Using Firmware 1.17 and current apps on iPad, Android and PC.  I see no need for packet analysis since the WiFi chip (already obsolete MRF24WG0MB) needs to be replaced at minimum. The unit will survive loss in beacon up to a point and then the only recovery I found was to restart the MR12, not good. Results send it back!
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on November 26, 2018, 10:22:03 PM
When you think you have figured it all out up shows Murphy (Murphy's Law). Checking with more than one tool regarding Beacon strength I found too many discrepancies. Android's is a different app than the PC and none seem to be in sync. So I will need to haul out the big guns (RF analyzer Signal Hound) and have a look. Wire-Shark will require some additional hardware to deal with Wireless which I don't have yet  :). In any case it still fails and no longer reconnects from any of the control apps until a power cycle. I did notice that the Beacon reappears after switching to any other mode and back to AP so it acts like all 4 devices are in use but no control of MR12 and will not let others in. Stay tuned my Kitchen project has priority  :). Bottom line for now is use a wired connection certainly not the build in garbage. A quality wireless router using 5 GHz is a viable compromise. FYI Apple has discontinued all WiFi routers since April 2017. Get something else if you need one.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 04, 2018, 06:08:26 PM
A followup on the now reproducible failure on all three Music Tribe products. XR12, MR12, MR18 all fail if given sufficient time of about 48 hrs. If the typical usage is 4-8 hrs you probably won't experience it although on my MR12 it appeared after 6 hrs. This is done with 4 dynamic mics attached and one control surface a iPad 3 no activity other than screen refresh. Same results if a Android tablet is used. Not likely to be a hardware problem unless it is a design flaw in the MRF24WG0MB module. Since MG is using ucLinux a home-brew Real Time OS and possibly not using the Microchip Software complicates matters. Very little is known about the characteristics of the WiFi capabilities other than a bare bones implementation of 802.11 b/g. RSSI (signal power) is typically running 10dBm below any of my WiFi routers (Netgear, Cisco (Linksys), D-Link)). A packet analysis is required to dig deeper. My recent sink or swim test of about ~160 audience (probably about 100 phones of various makes) cut the time to minutes. This however could be just a overload of traffic in the 2.4 GHz band and was corrected by requesting phones to be set to Airplane mode. :) Lucky me since they complied with the request  >:D. MR12 power needed to be cycled for recovery however.
Getting Mackie and the Tribe confused  :eek:
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 05, 2018, 01:10:15 PM
I have a co-worker who is also running the MR/XR18 and had severe trouble connecting to the onboard wi-fi at an outdoor show where they were very close to a lot of extraneous wireless signal traffic in the vicinity. They were blocked from connecting to the mixer, period. I will retain and use my Apple  Airport Express that I have had in the rack since my DL1608 days. So far, all my testing has been perfect performance. After seeing this message on the Tribe site, I tested my setup by running it overnight.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 05, 2018, 10:13:13 PM
I would expect that. Normally I use a wired connection to a PC to run the X-Air series and wireless for initial setup. I don't need to be concerned about control disappearing on me. The above mentioned test of ~160 was due to my rearranging my setup (missing the external router at the time) when I was asked to do this gig (3 days prior and no time to add router). What better way to test out suspicions about the 2.4 GHz band. I don't have 100 phones. Normally I run the setup by wire but couldn't due to incorrect info about the setup (cables). When I have a chance I will try to use fixed IP as a workaround to see if it makes a difference (typical Black Box test). Normally the stations (iPad etc.) will start roaming processes once the RSSI gets to -65dBm or lower and that could affect connections. There is literally no access to the embedded module settings other than SSID, IP(fixed), mask, Gateway/DNS and channel. Here's hoping that simplification will bypass logic bugs :).
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 06, 2018, 10:36:29 AM
With the camera kit attached to my iPad, should I be able to achieve a wired connection to the XR18? Because right now I can't seem to make that happen. WiFi is spot on. Also, contrary to what some others have posted, the USB to camera kit is not working to charge my iPad either.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 06, 2018, 06:51:28 PM
First let me say that I wouldn't recommend that route. See the convoluted hookup and parts required for the iPad (only tested with the iPad 3 30 pin). The USB to Ethernet dongle also has to be one that Apple recognizes.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1208.0
Android is much simpler and with current units (nothing cheap and make sure that it has a Ethernet function in setup, some older versions don't) only requires a OTG USB to Ethernet dongle (I used a OTG cable and USB to Ethernet dongle). Dave's Mixing Station Pro is what I would use for tablet work. Currently I use a laptop PC since I don't have a Windows tablet.  As far as charging the iPad or any other tablet forget it too many complications and I never had much luck with the dual USB A cables. Get a tablet that can last thru the Gig with a full charge.
The fixed IP only setup is currently running and good so far (12 hrs). Even if that's a workaround I would use it only as a last resort. FYI the Apple Express was never known as a great WiFi router (low power = distance).
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 06, 2018, 07:15:32 PM
I have the "official" Apple Camera Connect Kit. Just stating that it doesn't work.
My Apple Airport Express WiFi has been perfect in every location. Even connecting the iPad outdoors from 100ft.
For my new setup, I will have an ethernet cable from the router to the MK18, a charger cable connected to the iPad and a USB recording to my MacBook running Cubase Elements 10
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 07, 2018, 01:26:05 AM
As I understand it you will be controlling the XR18 (MK18?) with the iPad (version ?) over WiFi (5 GHz). Recording and playback on MacBook via USB. That combo should work just fine. It however takes a lot more than the CCK from Apple for the wired hookup to an iPad.  All need to be the right type. Without knowing the hookup and all the parts involved I can't really comment. Apple also has the habit of changing things without notification.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 07, 2018, 01:40:10 AM
Most likely a powered USB hub. One extra piece I donít want to deal with. I have a large iPad Pro.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 07, 2018, 05:01:13 AM
They have since my tests about 5 yrs ago come out with a Lightning to Ethernet dongle that may even work.
https://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Ethernet-Yvelines-Converter-Connection/dp/B075TYL5J6/ref=asc_df_B075TYL5J6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241963357402&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12878487569609598776&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031169&hvtargid=pla-446159633011&psc=1
At least that's the claim. No bets on iOS12 etc. Seem to work on iOS10 and 11. Still no charging capability but for a short gig it should work.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 07, 2018, 12:17:06 PM
I found one that has lightning (charge), ethernet, and USB.  I'm gonna try this one out.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lightning-To-RJ45-Ethernet-LAN-Network-USB-Card-Reader-Cord-Adapter-For-iPhone-X/382588034761?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Now if I could just stream 18 individual WAV files to network attached storage, I could eliminate the need to bring the laptop.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 07, 2018, 12:20:44 PM
Now, I they added some firmware that would allow you to stream 18 individual tracks to attached storage, I could eliminate the need to bring the laptop. I don't trust my Ipad to have enough space to record 4 hours of 18 tracks.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 07, 2018, 03:50:42 PM
That may work and there are Apple certified versions from Redpark (a little boxy). Let us know if it works.
http://redpark.com/lightning-ethernet-adapter/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsJquyIaO3wIVNx6tBh0_5gVxEAEYASAAEgL5ovD_BwE
Also pricey at $99 plus lightning to USB micro cable.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on December 07, 2018, 04:16:13 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lightning-To-RJ45-Ethernet-LAN-Network-USB-Card-Reader-Cord-Adapter-For-iPhone-X/382588034761?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 08, 2018, 03:14:12 AM
Yup I got it. Now for my test, I pulled the plug by accident :-[ So the count started again. I did remember to reboot the iPad this time round. So we're at 12 hrs again and all is well. The static info remained and startup was a lot faster. Time will tell. The switch is in the AP position so DHCP is active but I will stay away from any assignments. iPad is set at 192.168.1.200 out of the range of the DHCP servers 100-132. Hope it holds.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 09, 2018, 09:46:06 AM
Well the MR12 died somewhere between 24-32Hrs (I do sleep). Interestingly enough the XR12 and the MR18 have been running for 2-3 days prior to the start of the MR12 test. No communications and I now have the XR12 under the same test for about 12 hrs , using the same iPad, now and no failure yet. So as long as there is no AP WiFi  communication to a tablet or PC everything is OK. I expect the XR12 to also quit soon. The iPad has been running since the reboot and appears not to be the source of the problem. Everything points to the X-Air/M-Air product line communications for the eventual failure. The question is when will it fail on you, in the middle of a gig or will the audience use of phones bring it to a quick end? This is all done with whats known as a Black Box test where little is known about the workings of the Black Box (XR/MR mixers). It's also pointless to attempt going beyond this without knowledge of the code. That's the Music Tribes job. After this I will revisit the wired hookup.
Update: As expected the XR12 died 2-10 hrs later, about the same 24-32 hrs duration. This makes the AP setting unreliable for gigs since recovery requires a power cycle on the mixer.
Just to be certain the MR18 also died after the 24-32 hr duration of being controlled. :(
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 11, 2018, 05:16:05 PM
Wired test now in progress since 12/10 11PM. Since I wanted to simulate the AP limits I set the MR12 as the DHCP source. Using my Cisco WiFi router with DHCP off. MR12 switched to Ethernet and connected to the Cisco. Same iPad never rebooted using 2.4GHz band now connected to the Cisco. Hopefully we have a Energizer Bunny instead of a Turkey  :).
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 11, 2018, 09:02:05 PM
Wow didn't expect this, 13 hrs later and it died. Now I need to hook up the MR12 Ethernet (wired no DHCP known as Link-local addressing with IP 169.254/16  ). and it better survive. This is the way I've been using it without problems, but at most 8hrs. Control via PC.

Correction I was using the mixers DHCP server in the wired configuration.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on December 13, 2018, 07:08:52 PM
Well that was a bust. It managed to stay alive for 16-24hrs before loosing connection. The only positive is that the reconnect worked (no mixer lockup). Unfortunately it only survived for about another hr. before loosing connection twice more. There was no WiFi involved here including the PC (WiFi turned off). Recovery is the unacceptable MR12 power cycle. So even the wired only connection is unreliable in Link-local mode (IP 169.254/16). This is with firmware 1.17 and M-Air app 1.5 with a W10 PC. Interestingly the Midas website now only shows firmware 1.16, is there a message in this? There are only 2 cell phones active here and 4 other AP's for FYI for the previous tests so no overloaded 2.4 GHz band. My computers on WiFi last several months 24/7 without disconnects so you draw your own conclusion or better yet test it for yourself.  I may when I have time reload V1.16 of the firmware and try again after the Holidays. The current workaround is to power cycle all devices before a gig and hope it lasts. The 2.4 GHz band of course is out of the question.

Update: Amazingly firmware 1.17 reappeared, uhmm.  Nice job Chase!
Power cycled one more time and unlike Old Faithful it died after 16-24 hrs.
Time for the Tribe to fix this problem!!
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2019, 09:06:57 PM
Continued here.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1476.0
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on January 03, 2019, 12:13:54 PM
So my first test with the USB/ETHERNET/LIGHTNING plug was a little less than perfect. Ethernet works to wire my iPad Pro directly to the MR18 (check). Lightning connector allows the iPad to charge while in use (check). The USB is an added feature that I probably won't use much and I didn't test that. BUT here is the problem I am having now. With no dongle plugged into the iPad, music that I am playing streams to Aux Input (on the MR18) as expected. When the dongle is plugged in, I am loosing this connection and I haven't figured out how to change the routing to have this working again.

Is there some setting that I can't find in Settings (iPad General) that would define where music is output?
Is there some routing in X-Air to redirect the music playback to Aux Input, that I am missing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on January 03, 2019, 04:59:25 PM
My iPad is used in a test til after midnight your time but the PC version under the Aux channel look at input and select the source A/D or USB. Hope this is what your looking for. This source selection is also available in Setup>Monitor source drop-down for headphones out.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on January 05, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
I can't get the music that I playing on the iPAD to route to the AUX IN channel no matter what I try. This is with NOTHING plugged into the iPad.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on January 06, 2019, 03:46:49 AM
That's understandable since the only digital music into the mixer is with the USB connection to the iPad (DAW's etc.). The rest of the inputs are all analog. So you will need the USB and a program on the iPad to play back music. It definitely requires a USB to iPad connection. WIFI or Ethernet are only for control.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: LeeSteel on January 07, 2019, 12:33:37 PM
I ended up using a 1/8" headphone jack to 2 1/4" jacks so I can plug directly into 17/18 line in.
Title: Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
Post by: WK154 on January 11, 2019, 03:31:40 AM
I occasionally use a Bluetooth receiver plugged into 17,18 for a "wireless" connection to play music from a tablet. Most tablets have Bluetooth ability.