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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: WK154 on October 12, 2018, 08:31:47 PM

Title: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: WK154 on October 12, 2018, 08:31:47 PM
Since no information was given regarding Beta testing of these products Welcome to the Beta testing program by Mackie. The yet to be posted V5.0 version for Master Fader is then in fact a Beta version just like V1.0 for the DL1608. Since it covers a totally new approach by also dealing with Android it is clearly a  new version of Master Fader. Hopefully Mackie will be on top of fixing the bugs promptly not as in the past. For those of you that have the hardware you might inquire when the Warranty period will start since you only received a partial product..
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Bufalo on October 13, 2018, 08:27:06 PM
Copied and then removed from the other thread -

I fretted with myself over going with the "better value" from Behringer or the "better product" from Soundcraft, but given my usage model (playing bass and running sound from the stage 10-20 times per year) I didn't want to have to relearn an iOS mixing platform from scratch in the heat of battle so I went with what I knew.   Because of this, I'm both anxious and eager to see how MF5.0 works.   I've also been using a DL1608 for several years now, but have never ever used it with the iPad docked - it's only ever been a stage box.   To now have that functionality in a smaller form factor, with a more rugged build and a built-in power supply makes me quite happy.  No more TRS/XLR adapter cables for my monitors, either!  I'm eager to see how it works as a recording interface, as well - I have a spare laptop that I can load up with Reaper (or they include a license for Tracktion) and do live capture and pre-recorded sound check; I know that users of the rest of the brands have done this for several years, but it's nice to finally have that as well.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2018, 05:30:52 PM
That time has come where the rubber meets the road. V5.0 is up on the iStore and the Playstore. Will be interesting to see if you can survive without the Reference guide. Waiting to hear all about it. Don't forget to read the release notes all 3 pages worth  :)
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Trshot on October 30, 2018, 07:58:48 PM
Youíll need IOS 11 to run MF5 so some iPads are going to be extinct for use with the app.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2018, 09:55:20 PM
Youíll need IOS 11 to run MF5 so some iPads are going to be extinct for use with the app.
Yes more sloppy work on their part in their Marketing literature which states mac OS 10.2 and iOS 10, neither is correct. It should be mac OS V10.13 and iOS V11.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on October 31, 2018, 04:36:25 PM
Iíve been looking at MF 5 and thereís a lot I like there.   Itís tempting to consider the DL16S.  Probably wait until January as none of my bands are very busy.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: pytchley on October 31, 2018, 04:56:45 PM
Don't rush it Wynnd, given mackie's track record of major bugs in new software! Remember the white noise.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on October 31, 2018, 05:14:59 PM
The white noise was about as big an OPPS as a corporation can get.  Glad they fixed it, but I never experienced it.  (Been using my DL1608 since Sept 2013)
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: pytchley on October 31, 2018, 06:38:48 PM
I did, you never forget these things. To be fair and thanks to this forum it wasn't during a gig and there was a workaround. Once a Behringer ultracurve did it to me on the mains at a biggish festival as the band were taking the stage and a couple of years later as we came back into the hall after supper a Soundcraft Spirit did the same. You never forget and never forgive...
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on October 31, 2018, 06:59:49 PM
OUCH!!!!
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on October 31, 2018, 09:15:33 PM
The white noise was about as big an OPPS as a corporation can get.  Glad they fixed it, but I never experienced it.  (Been using my DL1608 since Sept 2013)
Yes it took about a year for Mackie to be convinced that it was their problem and another year to fix it.  BenO the liaison for this forum back then didn't even have the courtesy to give an explanation. They seriously need some customer service training. My Dl1608 never developed white noise no matter what I threw at it others weren't so lucky. The current DL32R has connection problem but at least they acknowledge it but to date no fix.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1411.msg16918#msg16918
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on October 31, 2018, 09:27:49 PM
From what I know about Programming, and my Wife and I met studying computer science in the 80s, I'm guessing the software went into a badly designed loop that generated sound.  In the 80s, the hardware would have been slow enough to not notice the noise, but hardware keeps getting faster every year.  The software changes probably have more to do with minimizing the interactions with the mixer.  Thereby reducing how much is happening and opening up opportunities to send new instructions.  Result is the mixer does a lot more with no changes in hardware.  I love the improvements.  Good programming practices usually reduce or eliminate problems and when they don't stop it from happening, they do make it easier to fix.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on October 31, 2018, 10:38:35 PM
Since not all units behaved the same way it points toward a race condition eventually solved by software. We'll never know  ;D. If there is anything about software it's that it is consistent and repeatable. Hardware on the other hand is influenced by it's surroundings (temp. RF,etc.). Software in some instances can compensate for these problems once found. Case in point Motorola's 6800 had a race condition on one specific instruction when followed by another complex instruction a simple NOP between the two solved the problem.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on November 01, 2018, 12:02:52 AM
Valid points. Let's hope to never see that ever happen again with anyone's products.  I'd almost prefer to get feedback and as a sound guy, I get extra pissed off when a guitarist generates some feedback and everyone looks at me!
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on November 01, 2018, 05:45:15 PM
Anyone know what Return 1&2 are?  I donít see an input that applies.  Is this something that will only apply after adding the 1608 and DL16R? 
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: dpdan on November 01, 2018, 06:35:27 PM
Returns 1 and 2 are two stereo returns when using Dante and or the DC16.

When an iPad is connected with a charge cable to the USB "control" port of the DC16, the audio playing from that iPad can be routed digitally to a stereo return.
They can also be used for any audio via Dante.     
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Ampli on November 02, 2018, 05:02:38 PM
Think that it is the usb inputs
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: dpdan on November 02, 2018, 06:00:03 PM
Think that it is the usb inputs

huh? there are no USB "inputs"
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Ampli on November 03, 2018, 02:24:23 AM
Usb inputs = retrun from pc, u can select them in input a
They where also on the dl32, on dl1608 they where named ipad
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: ToH2002 on November 05, 2018, 09:32:20 PM
Question to the first adopters: since Master Fader 5 doesn't have a recording view (no USB recording) - where have the "switch inputs" button gone? I downloaded MF5 out of interest (should I get a DL32S as live backup for my DL32R), but for the life of me couldn't find a way to quickly switch all inputs between input A and input B. If you want to do a virtual soundcheck, this would be one of the key requirements.

Am I missing something or has Mackie actually lost this switch on the way to MF5?

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on November 05, 2018, 11:27:27 PM
Just my perception but one of the patch groups outputs to "B" and that should be the output via the USB port to a computer DAW.  I don't know what will be different for the DL32R.  Don't think that's supported yet.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: ToH2002 on November 06, 2018, 12:00:01 AM
Just my perception but one of the patch groups outputs to "B" and that should be the output via the USB port to a computer DAW.  I don't know what will be different for the DL32R.  Don't think that's supported yet.

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing: I am talking about switching the INPUTS to my mixer channels between their A and B assignment quickly. Both the DL32S and the DL32R have patch panels to assign Input A and Input B to the respective channels. This is where you can assign USB inputs to the channels (in my case for Input B).

My question is about the button on the record page of Master Fader 4.x that allows you to quickly switch all channel inputs from their A to their B assignments. Without this button, I would need to go to each channel individually and switch their inputs from A to B in order to do a virtual soundcheck - a major pain in the neck...

When talking about OUTPUTS, that's where the "USB" patching tab comes in: that one allows to assign mixer inputs, groups, FX etc to USB outputs. These are the ones that can then be captured by a DAW. This assignment doesn't need to be changed for the virtual soundcheck - it stays static.

So I am only talking about a way to quickly switch all channel inputs from A to B and vice versa.

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: ToH2002 on November 06, 2018, 12:40:06 AM
gaah - it looks like Mackie have really forgotten this - and their support team don't really understand the system:

"The switch input buttons are missing because the current version of Master Fader 5 does not support the DL32R, which is the only system that supports A/B switching for hard drive playback"

on my question "what about A/B switching for USB playback from a DAW (for virtual soundcheck):

"The A/B switch only supports the audio files that have been recorded to an external hard drive. This has always been the case"

This is just plain wrong - the A/B switch works perfectly for switching to whatever configuration you have set your Input B to. And of course when there is no drive plugged in, USB 1..32 will play back multichannel input from a DAW...

So it looks like Mackie will have to re-discover this functionality for the DL16S and DL32S users.

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on November 06, 2018, 02:38:01 AM
Sounds like you may have to wait for 5.1. If they forget that it will really cripple the DL32R or any multi-channel recording/playback.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: ToH2002 on November 06, 2018, 05:15:25 AM
Sounds like you may have to wait for 5.1. If they forget that it will really cripple the DL32R or any multi-channel recording/playback.

Well, they said they'd implement the function for the DL32R, so there's hope. Let's hope they also don't remove the function for the DL32S/DL16S im 5.1 (just because there's no USB recording function there)...
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on November 06, 2018, 02:34:24 PM
And as I understood, the recording feature of MF 5 was supposed to be to a DAW via USB only, but it was also supposed to be bi-directional so you should be able to play multi-channel from your DAW out though your DL16s or DL32s.  That's not the same as the DL32R.  Of course, that isn't supposed to be implemented yet.  Will have to see how things work after that upgrade next year.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: ToH2002 on November 06, 2018, 05:31:03 PM
And as I understood, the recording feature of MF 5 was supposed to be to a DAW via USB only, but it was also supposed to be bi-directional so you should be able to play multi-channel from your DAW out though your DL16s or DL32s.  That's not the same as the DL32R.

Understood - that's how things are implemented on the new DLs - actually when connected to a DAW, the new models will behave just like the DL32R. They just don't have the additional ability to record to and play back from USB storage.

The one thing that I am addressing is that the DL32R has a button on its recording page that allows to switch all channels to Input B (for playing back tracks from your DAW into the individual channels) and then back to Input A (to use the physical inputs again). This button does not seem to exist for the DL16S and DL32S - they don't have a recording page.

I've had an online conversation with Mackie support - first they denied that virtual soundcheck was possible with the DLxxS devices, but then came around and confirmed that this is possible, but that currently you have to switch channels to Input B one by one in the individual channel view. They claimed the development team were working on a master button to switch all channels from A to B and back, so we might actually see an improvement in MF5.1

With MF5.0, doing a virtual soundcheck means flipping through all channels, setting their input to B, playing back the tracks from a DAW on your PC, then flipping through all channels again and setting their input to A again. Doable, but painful.

Fingers crossed for a simple button in MF5.1 - should be simple to add it to the routing pages "Input A" and "Input B" - just a button saying "All Inputs to A" or "All Inputs to B" respectively...
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Bufalo on November 14, 2018, 03:46:07 PM
Two gigs in on my DL16S and it's been just as useful as my DL1608.   I'm a mix-while-playing guy in a band that plays small brewery shows.   I've used the built-in wifi for both gigs and it's been stable enough for that purpose.   I haven't yet dug into the live recording, since the windows app doesn't exist yet.  Some of the setup controls have subtly changed, and that took an extra moment of finger-stabbing, but nothing critical has failed or stumbled.   Not having to be tethered to my rack with the power adapter and wireless router (like on my 1608) has helped simplify some cabling.  It's just a stage-box for cables.    XLR outputs on the auxes is so much nicer - I always had to plug in TRS adapters before running to my floor monitors; four less cable adapters to hook up.

My setup is really simple, and so I can't yet comment on much of the newly added routing, nor any of the changes to subs and vca's (if there were any)
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on November 14, 2018, 04:49:00 PM
Looking at Mackie's V5.0 claims unless recording is under Export/Import feature it should be included. Garage-band (free) and other "DAW's" (Beatmaker, Auria or Cubasis) are available for the iPad. You could try to see if that's even supported at this time.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on November 14, 2018, 05:11:38 PM
I've used the built in Xair WiFi as well with some limited success but not having 802.11 full a/n (5 gig) or ac has it's current limitations. I had a gig for about 160+ audience last Sunday and on purpose brought no wired backup. Net results everything was fine until the phones arrived for picture taking and of course searching for WiFi. I lost the connection on both the iPad and the Android. There is a lesson in this and that is to leave the announcer or some other mic active so you can request that all phones be put in Airplane mode to avoid shouting. The cross-section of the audience was seniors and they complied. I was able to complete the show without further loss of control. The loss of control is not due to range, power etc. it's due to traffic on the 2.4 GHz frequency. So Mackie's claim is meaningless and not under their control. A big mistake not to have the 5GHz band or the 10/100/1000 MHz Ethernet.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: ToH2002 on November 14, 2018, 05:30:33 PM
I haven't yet dug into the live recording, since the windows app doesn't exist yet. 

The Windows version of Master Fader won't help you with live recording - you'll need a separate piece of software (a DAW like Cubase, Reaper, etc) on a PC/Mac connected to the DL mixer via USB. This will treat the DL as a multichannel audio interface and present your mixer inputs individually to the DAW (you can actually define in the routing page what signal will be available to the DAW - the direct input after input gain or the processed channel content, or even the stereo mix or a subgroup).

Master Fader Windows version will simply be a "remote control" app for the mixer and won't have any recording facilities for the DL16S. Master Fader Windows will connect to your mixer via Wifi or wired network, not via USB. You could probably have both the DAW and Master Fader on the same Windows machine, but you could also run them on different Windows machines. I would keep my recording on a separate machine, sitting next to the mixer on stage and not touch it while it's recording...

So if you want to start recording your sessions, no need to wait for MF5.1 - connect your DL16S to a PC via USB (install the drivers first) and use any DAW to record. There is actually a pretty nice free live recording solution: Tracks Live by Waves: https://www.waves.com/mixers-racks/tracks-live  - no mixing capabilities, but good enough to just capture a gig with very few clicks.

Cheers,

Torsten


Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: WK154 on November 14, 2018, 06:36:57 PM
Yes, and the USB driver for the PC is available and the Mac should just work. So any of the major DAW's should be useful for recording and playback.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on November 20, 2018, 05:17:39 PM
Has anyone taken a DL16S or DL32S out for a show yet?  Iím still considering getting the DL16S, but probably wonít touch it until next year and will keep my DL1608 as a back up.  Itís not perfect, but it does everything I need. 
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Ampli on November 27, 2018, 01:46:25 AM
Dont have a s version, but looking at the app, im missing an (by me) much use function
In mf4 u could tap in the box below the eq in channelstrip to go to the fx,
In mf5 it s just a blackbox and u have to push a fx button
In mf5 u cant quickly change the fx anymore AND change the volume of that channel

Imwould rather see that if u push the blackbox(or a picture of the slected fx that u go to the fx and have the old screen
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: dpdan on November 27, 2018, 04:19:11 AM
Ampli, as soon as the next version of MF5 is released, those issues will have already been addressed and fixed,
and there will be no confusion as to what effect is loaded into what FX channel.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Ampli on November 27, 2018, 10:46:16 AM
 :thu:
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Bufalo on December 06, 2018, 07:54:04 PM
Has anyone taken a DL16S or DL32S out for a show yet?  Iím still considering getting the DL16S, but probably wonít touch it until next year and will keep my DL1608 as a back up.  Itís not perfect, but it does everything I need.

I've done two gigs with my DL16s, it's worked just fine.  It feels like an evolution of the existing product and not anything fully new.  Once I start going, it's just the same as the 1608 ever was.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Bufalo on December 06, 2018, 07:55:36 PM
I hadn't considered that there would be a separate driver for Windows for this to just operate as an interface.  I've been a Reaper user for years now, I'll give that a whirl and see how it goes. 
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on December 09, 2018, 01:15:29 AM
Sounds good.  I'm still using my DL1608 as recently as last night.  I love the pre-amps and the looks of MF5 is adding functions that I'm ready for.  Still considering it.  I haven't configured the 1608 to directly feed my PA speakers and amps.  I've given it a lot of thought and the 31 band EQ could be set up to flatten the speaker response of any system.  I've found that to make any system more functional in every environment.  Currently I'm using DBX's DriveRack PA and PX for those duties.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Ampli on December 09, 2018, 04:40:40 AM
Sounds good.  I'm still using my DL1608 as recently as last night.  I love the pre-amps and the looks of MF5 is adding functions that I'm ready for.  Still considering it.  I haven't configured the 1608 to directly feed my PA speakers and amps.  I've given it a lot of thought and the 31 band EQ could be set up to flatten the speaker response of any system.  I've found that to make any system more functional in every environment.  Currently I'm using DBX's DriveRack PA and PX for those duties.
The biggest change i see with mf5 is the effects, the all other funtions are already in mf4
Unfortuned there is no separet eq for the left and right for the main
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on December 10, 2018, 02:37:15 AM
I always use matched speakers for Left/Right.  If I used one side for monitors that might make a difference.  But right now I don't play in a band with more than 6 musicians and the Aux channels can cover totally separate mixes for each.   That would be more important if using IEMs.  (Not my situation.)

Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: pytchley on December 10, 2018, 08:47:32 AM
You might have matched speakers but what about asymmetric rooms, there's a lot of them about, as well as different zones in the same room. A split EQ on the mains is very useful and was the norm back in analogue times when of course one used to dream of stereo EQs to save having to match 31 tiny faders. Never happy basically.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S First adopters experiences
Post by: Wynnd on December 10, 2018, 06:22:26 PM
If the band was louder, that might be an issue, but being able to pan to a strong side has been enough for me.  And that doesnít happen very often.  I do see where you are coming from.  I also donít do base EQing in a club.  Pink noise is too upsetting. 
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: Reluctant Soundman on December 30, 2018, 03:16:57 PM
Newbie here.

I just received my DL32S a couple weeks ago and have been familiarizing myself with the MF app (transitioning from analog Onyx 1640 workhorse). I think I've got the basics sorted out and have set up a show and snap shots with view groups, monitor mixes, mute groups, FX, all input channel settings. When I connect to the mixer, the show loads in its most recent form, which is great. The odd thing is that when I'm not connected to the mixer the offline shows don't display a "Load" or "Recall" button. The only links present are; Name, Image, Duplicate and Delete.

My hunch is that this has something to do with where the files are saved to (iCloud by default on my iPad) but I don't use iCloud. Does that seem like a reasonable hunch? Should I change the setting to save to the iPad? I do sound only for my own band so no need for lots of shows and snapshots that could get lost if the iPad dies.

Thanks.

P.S. Thanks to @dpdan for your excellent tutorial videos. Got me up to speed very quickly.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: Boatman on January 18, 2019, 08:52:30 PM
As a new user to the forum I want to thank you for the hours of reading available on the DL16S. As a DL1608/DL806 user, and having purchased the DL16S, I am in a bit of a dilemma primarily due to the requirement of iOS11.0 for Master Fader 5 and the incompatibility of Master Fader 4 with the DL16S. What now makes migration difficult is the fact that my users have iPad4 machines, not iPad Air or newer and Apple froze iPad4's at iOS10. Has anyone found a workaround for this conundrum? Buying newer iPads or iPhones is not going over well....
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: Wynnd on January 23, 2019, 05:56:51 AM
There is no work around.  You have to have an iPad that runs iOS 10+ to run Master Fader 5.x  It's also supposed to run on later android tablets, but some have said that the Android version of Master Fader 5 is the phone version where you can only control volume.  I hope that's wrong, but I don't have an Android tablet to verify that.  I'm using a iPad mini and an iPad Pro to control the mixer.  Out of my 4 iPads, only two moved on.  I gave the iPad mini that wouldn't upgrade to my Wife.  I use the dockable iPad 2 at home, but may include it when I sell my DL1608.  (30 pin connector.)  I'm not too bothered by it because I've been using my DL1608 since 2013 and the software upgrades have improved the qualities of that mixer.  So many things that weren't in the first version of Master Fader that I worked with.  The product kept getting better and it didn't cost me one dime extra.  Keep in mind that while you need a newer iPad, you don't have to get the latest one and many used iPads would do what you need.
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: dpdan on January 23, 2019, 06:49:33 AM
Reluctant Soundman,
I am so glad the tutorials were helpful.
Welcome to the forum!
Thanks!
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: dpdan on January 23, 2019, 06:54:11 AM
I have found that the 9.7 inch iPad model MR7F2LL/A is wonderful and inexpensive,
while some iPads can get expensive with lots of gigabytes of memory.

About 300 bucks on B&H Photo, free shipping and no tax if you don't live in New York.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Apple%20MR7F2LL%2FA&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: Weogo on January 26, 2019, 03:20:29 PM
Hi Wynnd,

Returns 1 & 2 can be patched with signals from any input, analog or USB, and the Oscillator.
I commonly mix with most channels double-assigned, one going to the main mix, the other used for monitors.
The two returns allow for extra double-assigns.
For me this is very handy.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: DL16S/DL32S commentaries
Post by: Wynnd on January 26, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
I'm just getting the hang of the patch panels.  I don't think the user manual is too clear on them, but they are nearly self explanatory.  One song one of my band wants to do may require using two of the effects channels to make work.  I'm trying to figure out how to make that work without a patch cord.  (The effects have to be added in series and not in parallel. I think)    Hadn't thought about using the patch panel to apply different sources.