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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Wynnd on December 29, 2018, 12:59:56 AM

Title: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 29, 2018, 12:59:56 AM
Just got my DL16S.  Currently updating the firmware and have put a timer on it as the "progress Bar" seems to not be progressing.  (Not even initially.)  I'm going to report my experience as things go alone for a while.  I've got a gig in a week and would like to use this.  Yes, I will be bringing a back up mixer as is my habit.  (Can't remember the last time I've had any type of mixer failure out of 50 years of gigging.)  I'm also going to be providing sound for the speeches at the end of the Martin Luther King Jr Marade.  (March + Parade = Marade)  I haven't decided if I'm going to rack mount it.  (I usually do.) Anyway, feel free to follow me on this journey.
Title: Re: DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 29, 2018, 01:49:23 AM
I updated the firmware, but I had to use the abort button as my tablet switched back to my home network.  After reconnecting to the DL16S, I was given the chance to update and this time, keeping my tablet close to the mixer, it updated just fine, but as soon as it rebooted, my iPad reconnected to my home network.  Anyway, reconnecting to the DL16S allowed a full finish.  I'm looking forward to being able to do this through my MacBook Pro via network cable.  (If that ever becomes an option.)   I'm going to review the known bugs as I'm seeing some and don't yet know if they are known yet.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on December 29, 2018, 02:33:00 AM
Good luck on your new mixer. If you would rename the title to iOS DL16S experience it would be great and everyone using iPad's would be able to post and  find solutions to their problems here and share in your experiences. I'm about to deal with the Android (offline) experiences in a separate post.
Cheers
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 29, 2018, 03:32:10 AM
Good idea.  Thanks.

I have two iPads that survive to Master Fader 5.x   One is a iPad mini and the other is a fairly new 10.25" iPad Pro.  I also have an iPhone 6CE, but not likely to use it for the mixer much.  (Software is installed.)  Maybe loan it to one of my bandmates for monitor duties.  I will be asking my Android bandmates to install MF 5.  Mostly they are scared of touching the PA.  That is probably a good thing.  We shall see.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 29, 2018, 05:40:54 PM
I've been using Master Fader since 2013.  Love the improvements.  Use VCAs all the time.  Rarely use Groups.  I do use View Groups.  Rarely use Mute Groups.  So I wasn't expecting much to learn now.  The Ocillator threw me.  Sure I have one in my phone and I have the adapter cables to connect it.  Was looking forward to using the built in one.  Bit of a learning curve there and at least now I get it.  One of my bands wants to do "Won't Get Fooled Again" and it looks to me like the effects combined just might pull that sound off.  Now I'm wondering if I can use the patch panel from one effect to the next effect.  (Song requires two effects that weren't available before.) If I can make this work, I will report exactly how I did it.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 30, 2018, 01:55:45 AM
I finally got around to picking up my iPad mini to test it with the DL16S.  Initially I couldn't see the mixer even though I was on the correct network.  Rebooted the iPad and it showed up.  Unlike MF4x, the mixer doesn't announce it's connecting up.  I was able to accidentally erase a show configuration without attempting to. Just going to have to recreate it.  The show that the mixer was running continued to run, but the snapshot was gone.  I just made another.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 31, 2018, 02:30:18 AM
I was trying to attach my computer to the mixer via USB for recording.  That hasn't done for me yet.  Trying to figure out what I'm not doing. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Weogo on December 31, 2018, 03:21:35 AM
Hi Wynnd,

I know for PC recording there's a driver that needs to be installed.
I don't know if this is needed, or available, for a Mac?

Thanks for the running updates!

A DL16S will be here soon.

Good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on December 31, 2018, 05:36:44 AM
Iíve got a henge dock for my MacBook Pro.  Iíve had a few problems with the USB extensions.  Will need to try the computer out of the dock. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 01, 2019, 05:35:23 PM
OK, my MacBook hooked up directly to the USB port works fine.  (Guess Iíve got a problem with my HengeDock USB extensions.  Been using that for 8 years.  May need to reseat them?)   While I was using the mixer and the MacBook, I was watching my iPad kick in and out of connection.  Did this over at a library and there are numerous WiFiís there.  That would be marginal and unwanted.  Going to take my Airport Express and see if I can get the external router to work in this case.  The airport express II is 2.4 and 5 GHZ bands.  Iíve been using it almost exclusively on the 5 GHZ band.  (Separate names for the two bands.). I couldnít get the mixer to find my local WiFi so that isnít a viable suggestion. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 01, 2019, 05:42:07 PM
FYI, I was a PC/Network tech previously and donít think Iím doing anything wrong WiFi wise. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 01, 2019, 07:59:37 PM
FYI, I was a PC/Network tech previously and donít think Iím doing anything wrong WiFi wise.
I hate to admit it but we All make mistakes at times  :). As a summary of your WiFI hookups so far out of the three modes:
AP mode works but starts to fail with high traffic in the 2.4 GHz band. No surprise here.
WiFi Client mode you were unable to make it work?
Wired mode to a AE yet to be completed?
Not sure what you meant by "I couldnít get the mixer to find my local WiFi so that isnít a viable suggestion."

FYI here is  Dimitri of Mackie EU with some details of the PC/Mac version.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIaSoDke1nc
Cheers
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 01, 2019, 08:50:51 PM
In MF5 when attempting to do the WiFi client, it is supposed to give a list of WiFis it sees.  Mine apparently doesnít see any of them and is within 10 feet of a two band router.  Wondering if itís working correctly?  Mine are password protected,but that shouldnít matter.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2019, 04:28:10 AM
Does airport utility on your iPad see the Airport Express? If so then perhaps the DL16S just needs the old power cycle for the mixer to be seen? For those of you not familiar with the details of WiFi the beacon message from the AP send every ~100 ms contains most of whats needed to address a Access Point by a client (iPad). The rest should be asked for (ie. password) to complete the connection. There is also in non-tech lingo a broadcast message (reaches all that are on that network) send out by the client that in essence says "who is out there". Another way to discover a AP. Mackie unfortunately doesn't provide such details in their write-up. Behringer provided a terribly confusing write-up for WiFi/wired for X-Air but in this case Mackie has them beat, so unlike Mackie  :(.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 02, 2019, 05:02:33 AM
Was thinking about the issues that might cause that problem.  I had the network wired to the mixer.  That probably was the problem and your query got me to try it disconnected and this time, it saw every network in the immediate neighborhood.  I made the changes and am now looking at The stability of this.  Right now I'm on the 2.4 GHtz band.  I want to check it out on the 5 Ghtz band that talk across the router.  Looking good so far.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 02, 2019, 05:17:41 AM
OK I get it now.  To change anything in the WiFi connections, one needs to detect the mixer, change the settings then connect up the network cable.  If the network cable is connected first, you can't change to the wired connection.  (or the external Router connection apparently.)   I'm not sure what happens when the mixer is turned off and rebooted.  Going to test it.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2019, 05:20:52 AM
Mackie did go out of their way to emphasize that only ONE method can be used at a time. X-Air doesn't care if you have it wired and using WiFi as the connection method. It simply ignores the wired connection.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 02, 2019, 05:25:16 AM
Mixer apparently stays in the last configuration it was used in.  I need to be careful here as my home network has a different name then my gigging router.  If I use the Airport Express II, I will probably just wire it in.     I suspect the Airport Express is a better WiFi router than the built in one.  (Even though there isn't an external antenna.)  Least it seems like it is.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 02, 2019, 06:00:25 AM
Went back to Access Point mode and I've been watching the signal strength vary from 3 to 10 bars and the mixer is less than 10 feet away.  My Time capsule runs from 8-10 bars consistently.  (And can be reached by my tablets anywhere in the house, even in the basement where my practice piano hangs out.)  I'm not experiencing any drop outs like I saw at the library.  (Fewer WiFi's nearby.  Total of 6 here at home and three of them are mine.)  I don't plan to trust the internal WiFi as just about every environment has a bunch of WiFi's nearby.  The Airport Express II will be traveling with the mixer.  Thinking about just double sided taping it to the mixer.  Or just rack mounting the mixer.  (The rack is more than 100 pounds.  At 65, I'm liking lighter stuff.)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2019, 05:08:15 PM
That's been the experience with the X-Air/M-Air all along. The internal units are only 802.11b/g. This was first announced in 2003, that's 15 years ago and should be in a museum by now. A bad choice for both B.. and Mackie. Good for practice or if you can convince your customers to put their cell's in Airplane mode  :). Adding a antenna with higher gain or directional will help somewhat with signal strength.  I used a Hawkins 15dBi directional antenna and it helped somewhat. Can't really control the 2.4GHz phone issue so 5GHz is a solution for now. Wired gets rid of the problem altogether. I use WiFi for setup and switch to wired for the show.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 03, 2019, 06:58:54 AM
As I get ready for Saturday's show, I went and ordered a aftermarket WiFi antenna that should kick the output of the mixer's own WiFi up by about 8 db.  Probably won't be a problem in Saturday's club.  Hope I'm right.  Will bring the Airport Express anyway.  (New Antenna was less then $10 delivered.  Model  TL-ANT2408CL)  The Antenna is about twice as long.  (Think that's about 4 times the wave length)  It should still fold down, if not, I'll just put it in with the power cord.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 03, 2019, 06:26:10 PM
That's a 8 dBi antenna (Half Wave) it will give you about 6 dBm over the standard, but I would simply hook up the router that has worked for you and never look back.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 04, 2019, 12:53:33 AM
6 dBm would be the same as increasing the WiFi power 4 times.  That should be a significant increase.  My reason I've been avoiding taking the airport express is that it's currently double sided taped to my mixing stack.  I'm trying to move away from the mixing stack.  I'll bring it in my trailer, but I really don't want to take it in.  (I always allow 3 hours for set up when doing keyboards and sound.  I don't like hurrying anymore.) 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 04, 2019, 11:35:41 PM
I finally updated my Lenovo Tab 2 to 6.0 so I now have the offline version of MF V5.0 which seems to work after 1 minute of test  :). That's as far as it will ever go (DL16/DL32) til the DL1608 release.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 05, 2019, 01:38:25 AM
The Antenna was supposed to come Saturday, but it showed up early Friday.  Of course I tested it.  Works fine and is clearly stronger than the original.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 05, 2019, 04:08:38 AM
The Antenna was supposed to come Saturday, but it showed up early Friday.  Of course I tested it.  Works fine and is clearly stronger than the original.
Use Airport Utility it will give you RSSI values instead of guessing. As I've stated many times before it's about the 2.4 GHz traffic (phones) not your signal strength.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 05, 2019, 06:12:51 AM
Likely.  I bought a small rack mount case to mount the mixer in.  I'm going to mount one of my DriveRack PX units and my Wireless Microphone receivers in it too.  Plenty of room for the Airport Express.  Gonna have to work on proper length cables.  I really like the right angle power connectors. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 07, 2019, 12:00:39 AM
Gig experience report.  Had a gig in a small club and was first chance to take the DL16S out.  I had my Airport Express as a back up.  Also carrying my aftermarket antenna with me but set up the mixer in the Access Point mode.  Mixer was beside my right knee and one of my iPads was to my left.  Keyboards were between the two and the club had about 20 people in it with 1/3rd at the bar.  (Rest were watching the wildcard game.)  I set up early.  (Don't like to rush)  Did give me time to easily notice issues.  I would drop the input trim and the change on the iPad was immediately erased by the mixer that didn't see it.  I shut down the mixer and put on the longer antenna.  Restart the mixer and things went nearly perfectly the rest of the night.  I will definitely be putting the Airport Express into my mixer box.  Got a few minor modifications to make things work without having to reattach cables every use.  (I hate that.)  My next use will be the Speeches Outdoors at the end of the MLK day March and Parade.  (We call it the Marade.)  I did that last year and it was 23 degree and snowing and there were still about 2000 people who stayed for all the speeches.  We can be tough when things are important. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 07, 2019, 05:27:39 PM
Could you elaborate on the statement "I would drop the input trim and the change on the iPad was immediately erased by the mixer that didn't see it." . I seriously doubt that a 3ft. distance would be an issue for either antenna. Switching to the express will invoke a different set of code that may be more stable. Where there any disconnect notices in this episode?
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 08, 2019, 01:39:26 AM
I was on the new trim screen and needed to reduce the trim on a VERY HOT HEADSET MIC that the drummer was using.  I would use my finger to reduce the setting on that channel and when I took it off the screen, the mixer immediately returned the trim to the previous level.  I agree that 3 feet shouldn't be an issue with the stock setup, but it was.  The organ that was between the two is a Mojo and internally it is a Embedded XP windows machine.  (I find that strange, but it should make repairs easier as I used to be a PC/Network tech.)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 08, 2019, 02:35:53 AM
Hoping to make sure you all understand that I really like the mixer.  I also think that Mackie shortchanged the WiFi.  It should have been better, but I will be running through my Airport Express on dual bands starting with MLK day.  There are some quirks that will get rung out in one of the future versions, but nothing I can't live with.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 08, 2019, 04:52:42 PM
Just received a minor update, not the larger one we are all waiting for.  (MF 5.0.1)  Downloading it now and will be giving it a run through.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 08, 2019, 05:43:11 PM
I was on the new trim screen and needed to reduce the trim on a VERY HOT HEADSET MIC that the drummer was using.  I would use my finger to reduce the setting on that channel and when I took it off the screen, the mixer immediately returned the trim to the previous level.  I agree that 3 feet shouldn't be an issue with the stock setup, but it was.  The organ that was between the two is a Mojo and internally it is a Embedded XP windows machine.  (I find that strange, but it should make repairs easier as I used to be a PC/Network tech.)

As I read the manual the correct level setting for analog input channels is GAIN not TRIM. See pg. 91 of the RG. Trim is used for digital input (USB) sources. This applies to the new DL mixers unlike the DL1608/806 where TRIM will affect the analog inputs. At least that's how I interpret this.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 09, 2019, 12:52:45 AM
You're right.  It is called Gain.  (My bad.)  Didn't realize the difference between gain and trim.  Glad you pointed that out.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 09, 2019, 05:08:10 AM
I think Mackie should grey out controls that are not applicable (ie. A input selected = Gain, B input USB = Trim greyed out, etc.). Also if your moving Trim caused a volume reduction while you held it that's a Bug.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 09, 2019, 02:50:58 PM
I was used to the "trim" control not really doing very much from the DL1608.  I was actually moving the "gain" control.  I like the single screen for setting them for all the channels.  Makes setup faster.  (I do sound for my two different bands and various other sound jobs.  Will be doing the end of MLK march speeches outdoors.  Last year it was snowing and 23 degrees.  I'm hoping for better weather this year.)  Guess we are getting used to greyed out controls that only work when not greyed out.  I would put that on my desirable but do the other stuff first.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 17, 2019, 04:47:19 PM
Used the DL16S for a presentation by former Colorado Governor Dick Lamb yesterday.  Was in the Park Hill United Methodist Church.  I used a DriveRack PX to EQ the room prior to the event.  Like most things I do, I will make changes for next week.  I'm using my Airport Express II  (Dual band model)  it ran flawlessly.  I walked out of the sanctuary and into the parlor and had a very solid connection to the mixer through one wall and about 120 feet away on the 5 gigahertz band.  (Which doesn't carry as far away as the 2.4 GHz) There were about 5 other WiFi's in the area.  Don't know about their frequency or strength.  I finally made use of the Spectrum monitoring.  Never used it before But I had two instances of feedback.  (Hate that)  The AntiFeedbackSystem of the DRPX either was busy or just missed it.  it was pretty obvious on the spectrum monitoring what frequency needed to be cut.  I really couldn't ring out the system as I didn't know where the microphones were going to be placed.  I have a better idea now.  Love the mixer and still exploring its capabilities.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: ToH2002 on January 17, 2019, 10:58:18 PM
I think Mackie should grey out controls that are not applicable (ie. A input selected = Gain, B input USB = Trim greyed out, etc.). Also if your moving Trim caused a volume reduction while you held it that's a Bug.

Trim definitely IS applicable also on analog inputs. It just works on the signal AFTER the preamps in the digital domain, while Gain directly controls the preamp (which is only available for analog inputs of course).

So trim working on analog inputs is definitely NOT a bug but working as intended - I use this regularly on my DL32R when trimming down signals I want at a lower level in the mix (because my faders have better resolution around 0 dB) but want them at higher level from the preamps (signal to noise). So I use trim after the preamp for analog inputs; when switching inputs from A to B for virtual soundcheck, the level after trim stays the same - expected behavior, not a bug for me.

Quote from the MasterFader manual: " Trim Ė Trim is a digital level control at the top of the channelís processing. It affects all input sources to the channel whether analog or digital. "

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 19, 2019, 12:31:52 AM
Without getting into a lot of semantics Pg 91 of the V5.0 Mackie reference manual explains it quite well (including their Note which recommends against your approach). It appears that Wynnd had a problem with the Trim control not staying where he wanted it and that's the BUG. Whether Mackie want's Trim to function as per manual and like your DL32R at present it doesn't. Neither of us have a DLXXS to test. My Android MF V5.0.1 allows adjustment of trim without resetting to a previous setting, but that's without a mixer attached (Offline). So I would let Wynnd explain it further. He also used a iPad for control which will have a different set of Bugs compared to a Android and soon to be a PC and Mac. :) V5.0.1 may have fixed that as well.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 22, 2019, 03:47:35 PM
No problem with the control.  The problem was with the WiFi.  At the time I was using the internal WiFi with the stock antenna.  In spite of the distance from my iPad to the mixer only being through a Mojo Organ and about 3 feet in a club environment, it was dropping out as I was lowering the gain and reconnecting to reflect the original gain setting.  I put a better antenna on and the problem went away immediately.  I really can't recommend that anyone buying this mixer depend upon the internal WiFi.  If it works for you, good, but I know that My mixer's internal WiFi is weak.  I've been running an Airport Express II and generally using the 5 GHz band with not a bit of trouble.  And with that minor change, I love this mixer and the software.  (And good WiFi routers can be had for less than $50.)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 22, 2019, 04:15:55 PM
Report on MLK Jr day end of march event in Denver.  (Greek Theater in Civic Center Park.)   Event is held outdoors in a 125 foot amphitheater.  Large enough that my typical club set up isn't enough.  So I setup for my LR output into a DriveRack PX and then to EV ZXA1 subs and satellites.  Then using the output patch screen, I used the MainL and MainR patched to XLR1 and XLR2 respectively.  Then took output 1 and 2 to a DriveRack PA which is already set up for my Hafler P1500 that I run to the Kustom Horns and my Crown XLS1000 that drive the Kustom's Altec Lansing 15"s.  the speakers are Kustom PA speakers that were built between 1965 and 1970.  The Altec Lansing 15 inch speakers were OEM and I've never been able to find out exactly how much power they officially handle. (Guitar 15"s.  Think they are F6 models.)  The Kustoms are a bit beamy as these are the round "police siren" style horns.  (Least that's how Kustom described them in their sales brochure back then.)  They are EQ'd fairly heavily in stark contrast to the EVs.  I did learn that I should have set the mixer's output EQ separately for the two outputs.  (Live and learn)  I didn't check to see if I still had a mixer connection at the port-a-potties, but they were 200+ feet away with some concrete in the way too.  I had no problems in 5GHz anywhere in the amphitheater.  I really like that the mixer connects up so quickly when switching apps.  I'm using an iPad pro so I'm still missing the split screen that worked with MF 4.x.  Hopefully that will be fixed in MF5.1.  I'm quite happy with the mixer's performance.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 22, 2019, 08:23:11 PM
It's great your having fun. So just to be clears the trim which you adjusted before stays wherever you set it now and doesn't go back to a preset level. This was because of a poor WiFi connection?
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 23, 2019, 12:49:09 AM
totally.  with good WiFi there is NEVER any trouble with that.

I am running an external WiFi router, but I'm also carrying that better antenna with me as a back up.  (I carry a lot of items as backups for possible failures.  Extra mixer, more than one powered speaker for small things, extra XLR cables.......)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 24, 2019, 08:23:53 PM
Thanks for the MF 5.1 schedule update.  If the release dates are met, this is fairly good news.  If they aren't met, people will doubt Mackie's ability to produce software on a schedule.  (A fairly common problem in all software development.)  Vaporware doesn't ever look good.  It does sometimes look desperate.  Master Fader has become a seriously powerful piece of software.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 24, 2019, 10:51:52 PM
Wynnd when did you ever see Mackie meet a schedule, NEVER. Whether software or for that matter hardware including the latest product the DL16/32S. Professional Software companies do stick to a schedule unlike seat of the pants planners like Mackie who probably only have some spreadsheet for planning instead of the right tools and managers. Time of course will tell. WK=5, Mackie=0 so far  :)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Weogo on January 26, 2019, 03:26:49 PM
Hi Y'all,

I've done a couple gigs on the DL16S.
For both I used the built-in WiFi and it worked fine.
Had good signal at the back wall of the venue, about 60', no drop-outs.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 26, 2019, 06:08:16 PM
It sounds to me like Mackie has a quality issue with the WiFi on these units.  If you get a good one, no problem.  If you get one like mine, you had better have an external router.  Could just be the antenna.  My aftermarket one was much better.  It was about twice the length. 

Comment on Software development:  My Wife's firm only manages to deliver software on a very conservative schedule about 75% of the time.  Major corporation, large IT department.  Mackie can't be expected to do the same.  I actually wonder how big their software development team is.  (Barbara and I met studying computer science back in the punch card ages.)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on January 26, 2019, 10:24:26 PM
Wynnd let me suggest that you read my tests on the X-Air experiences.  http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1476.0   .
There are no "quality issues" just design issues regarding designing in several obsolete products into the DL16/32S.
As to your "software experiences" let me say that in my 50 years of dealing with Systems (Hardware and Software) where I was either in charge of or part of a team very few deadlines were missed. Do you understand penalty clauses or bonuses in contracts. My range of projects included guidance systems for nuclear weapons to 24/7/365 industrial inventory systems. Communications wise I designed the field comm for USAF MATS modified X.25 protocol in the 1990's . So in a nutshell most of what I dealt with had little room for error, hence the root of my critical approach to this MI business, although probably unfair, since there is a large disparity in costs. It is however no excuse to do poor engineering. What has happened to the innovation at Mackie?
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on January 26, 2019, 10:45:34 PM
Your experience doesn't match mine, but I will be impressed.  (As I should be.)   And I'm watching my Son and Daughter-in-law build a custom home with an unusual design.  Construction schedule keeps falling behind, so in spite of a lot of extra time being built in, we are just hoping it's done before the Constuction loan becomes due in May.  Meeting deadlines seems to be a universal problem. (Space X, Tesla, Apple Corp......)  You'll have to pardon me if  I a bit jaded.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Bufalo on February 03, 2019, 02:51:35 PM
Another gig on the DL16S last night and the best thing I can say is that nothing is different compared to my many gigs on the 1608.  I have been using the built in wireless without issue. I put a high gain antenna on it just because I had it laying around, but I'm not sure it's necessary for my usage.

I do notice that in MF5, the controls seem less responsive; not sure if this is by design. It feels like there's a bit more delay before a fader "glows and grows" compared to previous versions. Hasn't been a problem yet, but I liked the old sensitivity better.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 03, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Some haven't had any issues with the built in WiFi.  I'm only guessing that it is a flaw in quality control somewhere.  My DL16S clearly has weak WiFi.  Could be just the antenna, but it's really not my personal specialty and I'm fine with using the external Airport Express II.   I'm not noticing any delay on responsiveness, but I'm mostly using a one year old iPad Pro and that seems delightfully responsive, but I was using a iPad II on my 1608.  It was a huge upgrade in my world.  There are some nice improvements in MF 5 that will be available on the 1608 this year.  None of them are requirements, but they are all useful.  I still like to set Master Fader up for a show over breakfast with the actual mixer no where near.  That is one feature that many of the tablet controlled mixers don't seem able to do.  Thanks Bufalo for your input.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Bufalo on February 03, 2019, 04:42:49 PM
Yes, I absolutely set up my shows before the gig as well! I have most permutations of my band's sound saved as presets, but I load and tweak them during the afternoon before a show while the wife and kids are napping.

Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on February 04, 2019, 04:40:36 AM
Wynnd you could easily test the range of the AP embedded unit that you claim is defective, just find a football field (300ft) and see if you loose connection. Do it when no one's there (no cellphones). Then you will realize that it's all about 2.4GHz traffic not a defect. Your iPad should have at least a 200ft range. There are plenty of WiFi analyzers Apps on iPhone to verify the results.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 04, 2019, 08:38:35 PM
I can vouch that my airport express II can reach 135 feet on 5 ghz band with no drops.  But Even at a library, the mixer's own WiFi was having dropouts over 2 feet of distance with a few other WiFi's in the area and a 2010 MacBook Pro in the middle.  Surely there were a lot of cell phones as libraries are busy nowadays.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 04, 2019, 08:41:12 PM
Just looked and the MacBook Pro has a 2.4 Ghz processor.  That's only an internal processor speed, but any thoughts about interference because of it?  Of course, iStumbler doesn't see it.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on February 05, 2019, 04:19:05 AM
Any issues with the MacBook Pro would have never passed the FCC test. Still comes down to frequency overload issues. In the WiFi world it's known as OBSS (Overlapping Basic Service Set). Too many AP's and clients on the same frequency. So what is the "too many" number? I've seen numbers such as 20 considered high density and if Apple rates their Airport Express at 50 that's certainly a limit. Remember that it's also not just about a number but also what is being transmitted by each of these clients and the ability of the AP in handling the load.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 08, 2019, 08:11:05 PM
This morning while setting my tablet up for tonight's show, the fader screen wouldn't scroll left/right.  I saved the current show, closed the app and restarted the app.  Just a small glitch but unsetting.  Really folks, I really haven't experienced much that could be called problems. And after 40 years of computer experience, that's about as small an oops that ever occurs. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on February 08, 2019, 09:11:02 PM
I wouldn't call the fader screen locking up a small glitch. Since you tried another screen did you then go back to the fader screen or did you have to exit as the only option?
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 09, 2019, 07:46:00 AM
I could adjust anything I could see, but I couldn't pan left or right to see the additional channels.  I switched screens in several different directions and when I returned to the fader screen, I still couldn't pan.  I ended up closing the app completely then reopening it and reloading my saved show.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: WK154 on February 09, 2019, 04:36:44 PM
Have you informed Mackie of this? It sure sounds like a bug to me, hopefully not like the White Noise issue. Could you add it to the bug list here.   http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1465.0
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 09, 2019, 09:02:45 PM
I will add it.  Early MicroSoft products got me used to not expecting perfection.  I was setting up a show without the mixer itself anywhere near.  Something Iíve gotten used to doing.  It was on my iPad Pro and that tablet hasnít hiccuped to my recollection. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 27, 2019, 07:43:18 PM
This may sound boringly simple but the MF5.0 reference manual is not that helpful. The issue, playing music during a break in the performance. With the 1608 this was easy as I could set up music on my iPad and merely play the channel. However, for the DL16S I am totally confused by the "USB" assignment and how to actually introduce music  via this method. I see only one USB port but this requires a physical connection and I do not see any bearing on USB channel assignment.
I need a primer on how to use both the USB channel option and how to connect to the mixer to make it happen.
If, for example, I have music on my iPad and want to play it through the mixer, how do I make that happen? What connections do I make and are they physical or wireless?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I WILL CONTINUE TO SEARCH THE MANUAL....
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: dpdan on February 27, 2019, 08:39:21 PM
Hi Boatman,
May I suggest using this simple connection...

(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/HOSA_CMP153.png)

or, purchase an Apple Airport Express router, and one of these cables even though Apple no longer makes the routers, there are plenty to choose from on eBay.

(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/Apple_Airport_Express_model_A1392.png)

The Airport Express (not) Airport Extreme allows you to wirelessly send stereo audio from your iPad, iPhone etc.
The router has a stereo 3.5mm output that would physically connect with a cable to two channels on the mixer.
If you did this, you would not use the built-in router on the DL16S.

It is known that the 5.0 manual has many mistakes and it will be corrected.
The information above is just my advise, the nice thing about advise is that you can take it or leave it  :)
   
LOCKED 3 is the name of my router

(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/route_sound_to_Express_router.png)

Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 27, 2019, 11:22:21 PM
Thank you, Dan, for your helpful advice. I have used your 1608 videos as key learning tools but now find the latest version DL series to be painful.

I already have a powerful router so buying another is not a solution for me. I take it that the microphone connector is going to take up two of the 16 channels - am I correct in this assumption?

How can I use the USB interface on the DL16S and how can I control it? In addition, although the manual describes a driver for the PC at the Mackie location, I cannot find it. I do not want to use a DAW at this time either. Is the USB port a "lost cause" right now?

Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on February 27, 2019, 11:49:52 PM
The USB channel is a USB connection from a computer.  I havenít used it that way, but the assumption would be using the USB out connected to the USB in on the mixer and maybe the audio out directed that way?  Iím going to try it someday, but not soon. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 28, 2019, 12:03:51 AM
Well, based on Dan's idea, I purchased an Apple Lightning to USB Camera adapter and hooked it to my iPad (located at the mixer, of course). I plugged the USB cable to the USB port and went to my MF5.0.... Success. Return Channels 1&2 lit up and I adjusted the trim to avoid clipping. Now have all 16 channels for use and Return channels are assigned to USB 1 &2, currently playing Alison Balsom.

As I am not using the Return Channels for any other assignment at the moment, this now works for me.

Thanks for the prompt responses - Great support!
Still need to know where to find the mentioned PC drivers, though. Any ideas?
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 28, 2019, 01:07:52 AM
Back to the drawing board. This is regarding attaching iPad to DL16S and playing music through the mixer.
I have no idea how I was successful, but when I tried to do it again... nadaTools: iPad playing MF5, start iTunes and begin playing music (heard through iPad speakers). Attached Lightning to USB Camera adapter and plugged into DL16S. iPad recognizes in iTunes the DL16S and checks off successful connection. Go to MF 5 and can find nothing on any channel to confirm signal transfer despite trying USB selection on all cnannels.
So, I do not know how I was initially successful and will crawl back into my little hovel to sulk.... :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: dpdan on February 28, 2019, 03:41:27 AM
look at the routing page and make sure that USB-1 is assigned to Return-1, and USB-2 is assigned to Return 2.
You can see the routing of this by clicking on the USB tab in Master Fader's routing page.

I have never used Apple's camera kit like you bought but when you are playing music from iTunes,
click in the small area at the bottom of iTunes... you will see a small, red, antenna looking icon thingy,
clicking that will allow you to route the sound to anywhere it can go.

(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/itunes_routing.png)

LOCKED 3 is the name of my router
   
(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/route_sound_to_Express_router.png)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 28, 2019, 03:50:56 AM
Thank you. Will do. I will reply once done
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: dpdan on February 28, 2019, 03:59:38 AM

Still need to know where to find the mentioned PC drivers, though. Any ideas?

Drivers for computers is not yet available, that is supposed to be sometime in July according to the Mackie website info.

(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/PC_and_Mac_drivers.png)
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: ToH2002 on February 28, 2019, 11:41:29 AM

Drivers for computers is not yet available, that is supposed to be sometime in July according to the Mackie website info.


Hey Dan, I believe boatman is referring to the PC ASIO drivers that are needed to record and play back multi-track audio from a PC. These drivers are available for download on the DL32S/DL16s product page (need to scroll far down to "Specs & Downloads"). Direct link is here (https://mackie.com/sites/default/files/PRODUCT%20RESOURCES/SOFTWARE-FIRMWARE/Drivers/Mackie_USB_Driver_v4_47_0.zip)

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 28, 2019, 05:11:13 PM
Thank you. That is the PC USB driver I have been looking for. There was no easy way to find it and I would not have searched the DL32R documents.
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Boatman on February 28, 2019, 06:36:01 PM
Thanks to all of you for your help. I will summarize for the benefit of others who might encounter the same challenges.

First, the issue was to be able to play music via the USB port on the DL16S from an iPad or similar device. As the iPad connects to the DL806/1608 via the lightning attachment, I felt that it might be the medium of transfer for the DL16S. I decided to purchase the Lightning to USB camera adapter and attached it to the USB port once the DL16S was up and running. Following Dan's advice, I assigned Return 1 and Return 2 to USB 1 & 2 respectively (this was crucial). I then played iTunes, first on the iPad running the show (this tied me to the mixer though) and then on another iPad/iPod device. Both were successful. I did not try wireless or Airplay communication as I could not conceive of a method to attach the USB input to a wireless device (the iPad router notwithstanding).

I can now play music during intermission without disconnecting things and can also run things remotely as long as my music supply is operational. This for me has been a huge success.

Now to figure out talkback and how to silently communicate with band members on their Aux channels.... I hope Mackie is taking the many experiences listed on the forum and putting them into the next revision of the manual.


 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: dpdan on February 28, 2019, 07:07:53 PM
Thanks for helping Torsten!

Hi Boatman,
I'm glad you got it working!
As far as I know, Apple's Airport Express router is the only router ever made that can receive stereo digital audio from an Apple device using "Airplay".
So, without it, you are not going to be able to conveniently play music to the DL16S wirelessly, unless of course you strap two wireless microphone belt-packs to the iPad for stereo.
Apple Airport Express routers are not expensive and I highly suggest you get one, YOU WILL LOVE IT! 

Speaking of a wireless belt-pack..., that is exactly what you will need in order to talk discretely to band members as you roam the venue mixing the sound with the iPad.

 

Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: ToH2002 on March 01, 2019, 11:34:23 AM
So, without it, you are not going to be able to conveniently play music to the DL16S wirelessly, unless of course you strap two wireless microphone belt-packs to the iPad for stereo.

Since I use an Airport Extreme, I concocted my own solution: I used a Raspberry Pi with a DAC expansion board as a media player, loaded up with an SD card full of break music, hooked up to the mixing desk and the router on-stage and remote controlled it via a web interface on my iPad. Worked nicely, but of course it used an input channel on my mixer (summed it to mono first, so it only cost me one channel, but still). But the same would apply to the Airport Express or your microphone belt pack solution.

These days, there is even a Raspberry Pi solution that acts as an AirPlay receiver, so you could replicate the Airport Express solution: have the break music on your iPad and stream it wirelessly to the Raspberry Pi on stage. If you want to find out more, this is the website: https://www.max2play.com/en/ (https://www.max2play.com/en/)

Cheers,

Torsten
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on March 29, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
Iím gonna apply the MF 5.0.2 update over my airport express and report back about any issues.  After that, I plan to retire this thread. 
Title: Re: iOS DL16S experience
Post by: Wynnd on March 30, 2019, 11:06:09 PM
OK, upgraded the firmware with the DL16 running out through an Airport Express.  It went even smoother than with the internal WiFi and I think that is because the tablet was connected to the airport express and never lost connection when the mixer rebooted.  This will be the only way I will update firmware in the future.  Very slick.