Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: musicman7722 on January 31, 2019, 07:57:46 PM
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Friends
I have an issue with my iPad occasionally locking up on me. Here is the situation. I have mixed in two venues where I feel the amount of phone traffic is eating up all the possible bandwidth. One was a large outside beach concert at Hampton Beach in Hampton NH and the other at a large beer festival in an ice hockey rink in Portland Maine. I have mixed at the beach gigs 3 times and on each occasion it would lock up.
I am using a DL32r and have two differed iPads. When this happens I go back to the board and eventually the connection resumes.
Once at the ice hockey gig I did reboot the DL32r.
I have the router setup as it's own private network with password and it is not capable of on getting online.
The router is a standard off the shelf DLink and I am running it on the 5gz band.
I can't recall this ever happening in my basic sound gigs at clubs or party's.
Should I up the quality of my router or do I possibly need an external antenna, or none of the above??
TY as always
Chris
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How many people at these events? More than 5000? I had about 6000 at the MLK March a few weeks ago with no issues using an Airport Express II on 5 Ghz. (DL16S) I was up to 125 feet from the router. It does sound like you're doing everything right to me. 5Ghz does have less range than 2.4Ghz, but I'm sure you know that already. A better router will never hurt you, but it also might not help you and I hate spending money without a reason. (Though routers are pretty cheap.)
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Thank you for your reply.
I would say less than 5000. I wasn't aware of the distance limitation between both bands but even standing next to the DL32 wouldn't bring the connection back right away.
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It helps to have the specific model numbers of both the iPad and the WiFi router. That way I can make a reasonable guess about your problem. iPads are really not the best WiFi tools and Dlink must have at least 50 different routers by now. You should at least have a WiFi analyzer to survive in a large venue. Here is one I would recommend.
http://nutsaboutnets.com/wifimetrix-product-info/
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Agreed. I noticed years ago that the iPad isn't as sensitive as my MacBook Pro at a restaurant we frequent. On the patio, the MacBook works just fine and the iPad rarely can connect. Seems to be a very large difference.
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I can add that my brand new iPads have better wifi than my older units. The new iPads run about $280 and the processing is much better than the older units.
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Should I up the quality of my router or do I possibly need an external antenna, or none of the above??
Steve is correct, get one of the new iPads and for Heaven's sake.... buy an Apple Airport Express... just do it :)
Apple recently announced they are no longer in the router business but gosh, the Airport "Express" is killer, so is the Airport Extreme.
If you can not buy a new one, there are many on eBay.
Download the free Airport Utility and if you need help contact me through my website.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-AirPort-Express-A1392-802-11n-Nice-used-condition/123641158951?epid=116452199&hash=item1cc9965d27:g:CsQAAOSwhspcR4Yv:rk:8:pf:0
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Sorry it has been awhile.
As for my ipads I have a mini and a regular size. The regular size is about a year old. For the life of me I can't find the model info on these to share here.
My current router is a Netgear WNR 1000.
When this happened the first time last summer I was using an apple air router.
TY
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settings/general/about
https://youtu.be/MjI66lr-jWQ
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Thank you
My large iPad is
Model MP1M2LL/a #1823
My mini is
Model MK9P2LL/A #A1538
Hope this helps.
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your iPad is not the problem :)
I really suggest getting an Apple Airport Express
You will not regret it,, plus you can stream music in stereo from your iPad via Airplay.
No other router that I know of does this,,,, not even the Airport Extreme.
grab this one...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Airport-Express-Base-Station-A1392-Wireless-Router-802-11n-WiFi-2nd-gen/273696212071?epid=219499442&hash=item3fb990c467:g:t~AAAOSw-o9cYLLM:rk:7:pf:0
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OK the iPads are both at the same level in WiFi capability namely a/b/g/n/ac. It's the /ac that concentrated on the 5 GHz communication. The only frequency you should be using. I would NOT recommend any Airport express since it never covered the /ac capabilities, it stopped at /n. The only Apple unit that is comparable is the 6th generation Airport Extreme. Your Netgear WNR 1000 is only a /g/n level router definitely not good (weakest link in the chain). Apple's /ac was also only based on the preliminary /ac spec. I don't know if Apple ever updated it before ditching the business. I've had good luck with Netgear, Linksys and Dlink make sure it's to a final /ac spec. You need to match the two units with comparable capabilities. The iPad's are fine the router is the problem.
Update: Stay away from Linksys Velop seems to have a problem with speed.
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Thank you for shedding some light on this. I am a PC tech but am at this skilled in the wireless side.
I am only using the 5g band so that is good starting part. And from you are suggesting I should get an AC band router correct?
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ac is a communications standard like b and g and n for wireless. He’s right about the airport express not covering ac, but I don’t have any problem with it on 5 GHz. I don’t understand why he thinks this is a problem. He is probably right. the other thing I like about my Airport Express (version 2) is that it is dual band. 5Ghz and 2.4 GHz at the same time. My ipads are setup to connect to either and if one drops out, it will switch over to the other band. (Don’t recall that happening.)
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Thank you for shedding some light on this. I am a PC tech but am at this skilled in the wireless side.
I am only using the 5g band so that is good starting part. And from you are suggesting I should get an AC band router correct?
Yes /ac or /ax and missing from prior specs on the 5GHz /a/n is beam forming (antenna technology) in /ac for both a more reliable connection and better range and speed. Checking for clear channels goes without saying even in the 5GHz range. Auto is probably OK for now as well in only the 5GHz range. If you have multiple control surface users they need to be at the /ac level as well or they will affect their connection. Ideally the /ax spec is for this application (mixer control) but iPads are not there yet as many others. 2019 should change that. You could still go with a /ax WiFi router ($$ for now) and still gain some of its benefits of dealing with high density WiFi environment. A lot of the new technology is AP (WiFi router) related.
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For those of you unfamiliar with all the 802.11 specs here is a grouping relating to the frequency range and the typical disclaimers provided by manufacturers. This one is from Netgear.
IEEE® 802.11 b/g/n/ax 2.4GHz
IEEE® 802.11 a/n/ac/ax 5.0GHz
Netgear " Maximum wireless signal rate derived from IEEE standard 802.11 specifications. Actual data throughput and wireless coverage will vary with network conditions and environmental factors, including volume of network traffic, building materials and construction, and network overhead, lower actual data throughput rate and wireless coverage. Up to 1300 Mbps wireless speeds achieved on AC1750 when connecting to other 802.11ac 1300 Mbps devices. NETGEAR makes no express or implied representations or warranties about this product’s compatibility with any future standards."
This points to an obvious bottleneck, the mixers 10/100 Mps speed connected to over 1000 Mps wireless connection. That's 10x faster than the mixer. Fortunately most AP's buffer the messages sufficiently not to loose them. I hope that you now understand my age old request (5 + yrs.) for the Manufacturers to go to 10/100/1000 Mps chips at no additional cost to them (possibly even savings). Lack of Engineering talent seems to exist.
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I will not insinuate that I know more about routers than some folks here because I don't,
but what I can tell you with 100% truth is this... I am going on five years with my first Mackie DL32R and I have done around 350 plus shows/events with it.
I have always used the same Apple Airport Express router, in fact,,, most of the time it lives sitting inside the SKB case above the DL32R along with an ADJ DMX Bridge and five Sennheiser wireless receivers.
Yes there have been a few times and I mean only a few times in all these years that I have lost a connection because I was just way too far away... after placing the Express router on top of the SKB case I am all good.
The reliability of that little router is ABSOLUTELY STUNNING and mind boggling.
I did a job this past July fourth and walked well over 800 feet away from the DL32R sitting on the stage in a metal bandstand and had no problems or dropouts.
It probably has switched automatically between 2.4 and 5 Ghz many many times like Wynnd's but I didn't know or care.
just sayin'
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I have to say I know nothing about the intricacies of WiFi and the different bands. I have only ever used the Apple Express. I read all the reviews when I purchased and over nearly 3 years it has been as solid as a rock. Yes it has lost connection but rarely and I've always been able to get it back (and only ever a problem in 2 locations). I would not hesitate to recommend and have done so to many, even for those mixers with built in WiFi. It's not ht cheapest but I consider it an investment that was well worth it.
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I'm glad that two of you have had great luck with the Airport Express but why would you recommend a solution that has now been discontinued for almost a year and hasn't been updated for 7 years? This business moves much faster and responds to issues that exist such as overcrowding of the network and connection reliability with newer technology.
My view of this is that you're going to Vegas to be players while I would rather be the Casino owner :)
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Even though Apple has indeed discontinued the production of WiFi routers, it is evident that they no longer desire to compete in the router business. Regardless of new technology, it doesn't change the fact that some people have dropout issues, and isn't it ironic that those people are not using an Apple router. Those of us who have hundreds and hundreds of jobs/events under our belt with flawless performance, it only makes sense that we recommend what has been fantastic for us.
I will put my little Apple Airport Express up against any router... and it may have limited signal strength compared to some units available right now, but I pretty much live by the rule...
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Dan I agree with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" up to a point. So for those interested in one of many opinions by people that do this for a living I suggest you read this. BTW that was a typo (800ft) about the range, I can believe 80ft. There are also lots of other WiFi routers tested. Take your pick.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/31800-apple-airport-express-2012-reviewed?limitstart=0
Since it also requires two devices to communicate the weaker one wins out. Apple also doesn't even meet the offical /n spec.
Both of you have had connections drop so that makes you lucky it didn't happen at a critical time like the OP. The OP started out with a Airport unit when it first appeared. Just sayin'
State tune for the next innovation by Apple the Applecart (electric car), watch out Elon Musk :) . That's to replace the router business.
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as much as it may seem that I am a tree hugging, Apple lover I'm not :)
Here is a crappy video taken with my iPhone while holding the iPad in the other hand, unfortunately,
it does not prove that I still had control this far out, because I didn't show the iPad...... and I'm not sure the real distance either, but you can see the stage way way back there :)
It is possible that the fact that the router was up high on the front edge of the stage allowed such a stable connection.
I won't be buying a car from Apple :)
https://youtu.be/PllxNCqp_II
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If the guy with the light blue shirt in the beginning of your video is 20 feet away, then the stage is about 145 feet away. If he’s really 30 feet away, then the stage would be 210 feet away. Still 145 feet is pretty good for a portable router and matches my own experience.
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Actually I figured it out. Dan walked 800ft in a circle that gave him 127ft distance from the router which is close enough to Wynnd's eyeball estimate of145ft :) . Dan good thing your not hugging that Apple tree. Wynnd's stop loss at 25% should have kicked in by now. Apple is serious about Steve Jobs dream that he never got to realize, an Applecart. They leased an abandoned military base in the Bay area and their hiring automotive not audio engineers in Berlin according to the rumor mill :)
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Guess I mentioned that some of my IRAs are in Apple stock. I'm not unhappy. I bought at $20 a share and they have split 1 into 14. I'm not rich but that really helped my portfolio. My eyeballing was for the distance to the guy in the light blue shirt. From there it was all trigonometry. (Estimating people on stage were 6 feet tall and that the guy in the blue shirt would be about 10 inches in head height that was about the same in the video. Basically 7.2 times the distance to blue guy. Real nice crowd, but I'd bet not all were listening to the band.
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well, isn't that special (church lady) :)
(https://jnxz07-a.akamaihd.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Screen-Shot-2016-05-08-at-1.26.37-PM-640x361.png)
You are correct, it is just a wedding band, and they are there till the fireworks display begins at dark, that's when the system really gets used with music synced to the display.
145 feet is way less because my DC16 was 90 feet from the stage because my yellow 12/3 power cord is one hundred feet and I always use it all.
(http://www.misc.kurysound.com/miscuploads/Mackie_DC16_July_4_2018.png)
none of this matters because I know how great it works,, I also know that there are routers that provide seriously better distance than the Apple stuff, just sad that the Express is the only router that has Airplay... that really is a cool feature,
WK, if I was to buy a new router with massive POWER :) what would you suggest, I trust your judgement.
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Well Dan in your case that's a loaded question. You might have noticed only a few Axis systems being considered here. From the picture I see your power cord and the necessary Ethernet cable for Dante going to the stage. The Airport hockey puck can be at the DL32R or the DC16 end. I think you referred to it being on stage with the DL32R. Since the Dante network is nothing more than a Ethernet based wired network and the card IIRC is a 4 port switch you have configuration choices. In any case all your wired connections are 1Gps hooked to an 10/100 Mbps AP the AE. This certainly limits the network. Power is not the main concern although it certainly factors in the SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) the important factor. Your typical distance is not an issue even with the Airport Express (AE). Traffic would be my main concern. Since commands are limited to 100Mbps (theoretical but well known to be more typically 50% or less) a AP with 1Gps would be a better match. Higher speeds and directional antenna technology would be a much better choice. Again the weak link limits the network along with all that backward compatibility causing overhead. Beacon frames are send out at 1Mbps :( . The /ax spec will be finalized this quarter barring any more political bickering. All the current /ax routers are of course not final but will mostly be firmware updated as in the past (Bug fixes included). A tip on your current use of the AE is to point the AP at your iPads in the vertical plane, since the antenna are on the PC board unlike the Extreme. It will help slightly. The /ax spec addresses most of the issues you will find at gigs. You of course are wired to the DL32R so no real concerns about WiFi except for those personal mix phones or if you walk around with a iPad. Basically how I now setup my M-Air mixers (no internal AP). I currently use a Netgear R7900 monster with no know disconnects ever. Multiple and wider data streams will also help as you add more control surfaces as in the R7900 with 3 streams. Currently the /ax is on the bleeding edge so be aware of this along with the $350-$400 cost. By 2020 it should be mainstream and lower cost.
Cheers
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thanks WK, I know about the Express' antennas laying down when it is sitting flat and as you said would help (a little) if I was having difficulty connecting which I never do.
I was looking at the R6700 but won't need it or any other router until I begin to see the Express, or my Extreme no longer useable....
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As long as you use the DC16 Dante link your at 1Gbps wired not WiFi so what do you use WiFi for? The R6700 is certainly an upgrade to any AE not sure about the Extreme (what version).
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I've gotten very wary of running long cords where an audience might trip over them. Don't even care about the colors. Don't know about the Dante power draw, but if you could run it off of battery/inverter power and wireless that becomes a serious improvement in safety and should make your insurance happier. Wireless control along with ability to save different configurations were my primary reason for going to the DL1608. Never regretted getting rid of the 100', 16 channel out, 4 channel return snake. I do like having a small table and chair in the audience for a mixing position. People don't seem to bother me when mixing on the iPad.
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Dan the 6th generation Airport Extreme is /ac and beam-forming unit with 1Gbps wired so that should be fine even though just the draft spec for the /ac.
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Wynnd the generator or batteries/AC-converter solves the power problem of cables and of course brings along it's own issues. The Dante over WiFi is not there yet the main hangup being PTPv1 (Precision Timing Protocol) used by Dante currently handled by 802.3. It's cable for the present or bring your own telephone poles :).
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I'm going to assume we are talking about Time Division Multiplexing. (I'm an old army signal corps guy.)
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I'm going to assume we are talking about Time Division Multiplexing. (I'm an old army signal corps guy.)
Not even close.
https://www.luminex.be/improve-your-timekeeping-with-ptpv2/
Are you ready for your next 802.3 Ethernet at up to 400Gbps, that's not a typo. I'm at 1Gbps will I see that in my lifetime?
https://standards.ieee.org/standard/802_3-2018.html
Cheers
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I did upgreade my router to the type recommended. I will report back.
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Musicman what make and model would that be? Several were discussed.
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I bought a Netgear AC1000. It was about all I could find at Staples. It has worked fine so far but I haevn't played either of the places where I locked up in the past so fingers crossed.