Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: WK154 on January 31, 2019, 11:36:07 PM
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It seems that some mixer manufacturers recently are bound and determined to include a critical link of equipment control to outdated and poor performing internal units. This holds true at least for both the Music Tribe and now Mackie products. Both the XR/MR series and more recently the DL16/32S series suffer from this problem. Prior units such as the DL1608/806 and the DL32R from Mackie and the X32 Series from Behringer had no embedded WiFi units and as such left this choice to the user. They would have been better off leaving this aspect to companies whose business depends on reliable equipment by simply providing information on tested units in conjunction with their mixers for users to buy. I don’t mean company names as some provided but product models. Forums and their participants filled that need by trial and error, how sad, but fortunate for the users.
I have repeatedly suggested that they substitute a more current and just possibly less expensive (due to higher volume production) 10/100/1000 Mbps Ethernet units into their mixers instead of the 10/100 Mbps units they currently have. This was 5 years ago when these designs were started. This now limits the speed of recent external WiFi routers with a max of over 1000 Mbps with these mixers by a factor of 10. Even wired units are now limited by this. The price you pay for backward compatibility with older, slower equipment running at 10 Mbps. This is why WiFi speed tests come up with significantly lower AVERAGE thru put. Beacon Frames are sent at 1Mbps and use a significant portion of the available bandwidth as are other packets to comply with backward compatibility.
For those of you still determined to deal with the 2.4 Ghz band here are a few tips.
There are only three channels in the US without interference, 1,6,11. These should be used and often mistakenly other channels are used with the misconception that no-one is using them, surprise. There are 1,11 that have guard bands on either side (no one should be transmitting here) . Six unfortunately has no protection from either side. Old auto sensing units will pick these channels (2-5 and 7-10) and shoot themselves in the foot. I ran a scan on channel 2 only to find channel 1 frames showing up. Channel 3 showed none. So what you are now faced with is adjacent channels messages for which you have no ability to sync with disrupting the channel. A serious overlap. Not good and it goes both ways! If your traffic is on the same channel there is a mechanism to share bandwidth. That is not the case between 1 & 2 or any other adjacent channels. I choose 1 or 11 if possible. Hiding the SSID is also a fruitless exercise.
A tool for dealing with WiFi issues that I would recommend is
http://nutsaboutnets.com/wifimetrix-product-info/
I am always eager to learn new concepts and factual experiences so please post but don’t give me the “I never had this problem” or “mine doesn’t do that” scenario it’s getting old.
Cheers
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The way I read the firmware update on the DL16S is that it has to be through the internal WiFi. I'm hoping that is wrong because switching back and forth would be a pain.
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The way I read the firmware update on the DL16S is that it has to be through the internal WiFi. I'm hoping that is wrong because switching back and forth would be a pain.
Wynnd come on. In the DL16S lifetime a few disconnects of the network cable shouln't be a issue. I do wonder why it needs to be done with the internal WiFi.
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I plan to try it through the external WiFi first. It seems to be more than disconnecting the cable. One needs to change the mode then connect or disconnect the wire. My first attempt to connect externally was a failure. I think I have it down now. Still wouldn't want to get stuck doing that before a gig. My plan is to do it at home first and test it a few days first.
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Reading the manual I interpret using the AP mode as a contingency plan should the update fail using whatever connection method you were using before (ie. Static IP, Dynamic). The process has always been to connect the iPad first to the mixer (in Setup) and then run the MF App. At which time MF will check versions and either continue or request a firmware update or go offline. I don't see AP mode as a requirement.
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Sounds good. Thanks.
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Well, I decided to rely on the internal Wi-Fi access point to connect my iPad to my DL16S. Although I am less than 50' from the mixer I am repeatedly being disconnected by the router. I have read and re-read the manual and followed all instructions. However, I am due to run in a gig in less than one week and had keyed MF5 with all of my basics only to run into this reliability issue.
Am I doing something wrong (I get signal of "connected" and "disconnected" sitting in the same spot)? Do I need a longer antenna (more gain)? I cannot trust this setup.
It is happening with my Android device as well.
Disappointed....
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I have a DL16S and it has a weak internal WiFi. Yours sounds better than mine, but still not solid. I did purchase a better antenna and that helped, you could do the same. I ended up just using my 5 year old Airport Express II. It has both 2.4 and 5 GHz bands that run simultaneously. Apple doesn’t make it any more, but quality dual bands are available and a worthwhile investment for this mixer. That said, some are doing just fine with it as is, so I’m guessing the quality control on the WiFi isn’t adequate. There clearly is something to be said for having both bands at the same time. 2.4 GHz is getting pretty crowded while 5 GHz is cleaner. 2.4 does carry farther, but that appears to be a problem you are already having. With my Airport Express, I was able to easily control the mixer outdoors line of sight at 130 Feet on 5 GHz. That’s my suggestion.
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Well, I decided to rely on the internal Wi-Fi access point to connect my iPad to my DL16S. Although I am less than 50' from the mixer I am repeatedly being disconnected by the router. I have read and re-read the manual and followed all instructions. However, I am due to run in a gig in less than one week and had keyed MF5 with all of my basics only to run into this reliability issue.
Am I doing something wrong (I get signal of "connected" and "disconnected" sitting in the same spot)? Do I need a longer antenna (more gain)? I cannot trust this setup.
It is happening with my Android device as well.
Disappointed....
As I stated above the internal WiFi is not to be used for a gig for the stated reasons. Your most reliable would be a wired connection or otherwise a quality external WiFi router. Since you gave no information on the tablets you are using (manufacturer, model #) I can't really help. You can still use the internal for initial setup if you like to wander :) . If you read the Mackie manual they give conflicting statements about the use of WiFi. They claim the internal unit is all you need (a flat out lie) but then further down they give a big hint about their favorite method, a external 5 GHz WiFi router ;D
P.S. The only thing your doing wrong is believing Mackie Marketing BS.
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Thank you for your prompt reply. I regard the failed router as a factory defect and hope Mackie will replace it. There appears otherwise to be little advantage of the DL16S over the 1608 unless more effects are wanted. I am now using my Linksys WRT 1900 AC router and it works well - just more baggage to bring and to lose...
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Stick with your Linksys I doubt very much if it's the Mackie internal Wifi. Since I don't know under what conditions your loosing connection, time will tell.
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Point taken. Will watch and wait...
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Same issue with my new Soundcraft Ui24. I've been learning the board using its internal wifi, but I have no intentions on using it in the wild without an external access point. A simple wifi router up high on a stand seems to be the most popular solution.
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I would be quite interested in results from the wild with the only embedded unit that is using the 5 GHz band. It may not be the most sophisticated unit in that frequency band but I do believe the lack of traffic in the 5GHz band is all you really need. I don't think that 100+ ft range makes any sense for this application. I certainly would be interested in the live experience. I'm considering this as my next unit.
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I would be quite interested in results from the wild with the only embedded unit that is using the 5 GHz band. It may not be the most sophisticated unit in that frequency band but I do believe the lack of traffic in the 5GHz band is all you really need. I don't think that 100+ ft range makes any sense for this application. I certainly would be interested in the live experience. I'm considering this as my next unit.
There's a FB page for this mixer that would answer a lot of your questions. Some have had decent results with the internal unit (coffee shop, close quarters). Others have added taller, high gain antennas to the unit for improve results. Most providers at our level will say you need an external unit, so I'm not taking any chances. They have an 8 page primer on how to do it, but the guy that wrote it suggests using a wifi analizer and picking between 2.4 and 5 GHz, rather that allowing the software to determine. He states he's has better results with the 2.4 GHz.
With my Mackie, I've always just used an Airport Express, with no complex setup, and it's always worked fine.
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Steve, OK having dug further into a "Marketing Claim of 5G" I came across pics of a Ui24R and it's various components. This showed a RealteK RTL 8192 b/g/n chip that is a single (2.4GHz) frequency chip. Checking their manual there is no mention of the 5GHz range. Yet many users mention 5GHz as a option. So what is reality? Are the pics outdated or wrong or is there another answer to this? I will have to go to someone that has one of this units along with my phone to verify the existence of 5GHz radio. That's why I never trust marketing BS.
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Steve, OK having dug further into a "Marketing Claim of 5G" I came across pics of a Ui24R and it's various components. This showed a RealteK RTL 8192 b/g/n chip that is a single (2.4GHz) frequency chip. Checking their manual there is no mention of the 5GHz range. Yet many users mention 5GHz as a option. So what is reality? Are the pics outdated or wrong or is there another answer to this? I will have to go to someone that has one of this units along with my phone to verify the existence of 5GHz radio. That's why I never trust marketing BS.
It's in the manual, page 1 of "Introduction of Ui"
*Integrated Dual Antenna 2.4G and 5G Wi-Fi and LAN connection
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That's the Marketing BS I was talking about. Normally there would at minimum be a choice of dual SSID and possibly one or the other or auto in setup. I don't see it. I'm also not aware of a separate 5G radio chip for WiFi which brings me to having a analyzer check for the 5GHz Beacon signal (in the 5G range to verify the obvious). Apps such as Android WiFi Analyzer, WiFi Explorer or iOS's Airport utility will provide that. The V1 manual and all three addendum's have no mention of any 5GHZ WiFi other than the marketing BS that you pointed out. This puts Soundcraft in with the rest of the 2 other Mfg. with one significant exception. The Ui has a 10/100/1000 Ethernet (1Ghz) interface thus allowing you to take full advantage of the current crop of WiFi router. :thu:
P.S. Steve it would take you about a minute to verify this :)
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That's the Marketing BS I was talking about. Normally there would at minimum be a choice of dual SSID and possibly one or the other or auto in setup. I don't see it. I'm also not aware of a separate 5G radio chip for WiFi which brings me to having a analyzer check for the 5GHz Beacon signal (in the 5G range to verify the obvious). Apps such as Android WiFi Analyzer, WiFi Explorer or iOS's Airport utility will provide that. The V1 manual and all three addendum's have no mention of any 5GHZ WiFi other than the marketing BS that you pointed out. This puts Soundcraft in with the rest of the 2 other Mfg. with one significant exception. The Ui has a 10/100/1000 Ethernet (1Ghz) interface thus allowing you to take full advantage of the current crop of WiFi router. :thu:
P.S. Steve it would take you about a minute to verify this :)
Hey Bill, good to see your still around and kicking. Being in the IT trenches for as long as I have really shows that music equipment manufacturers still lag behind the current technologies out there. They are starting to catch up, but more at a snails pace IMHO. Still happy with my MR32c, gave the DL1608 to a friend who uses it for karaoke and my XR18 is still my backup (mostly a dust connector). I run wired if at all possible, but use an external Linksys AC3200 for the most part. Rarely have ANY WiFi issues except a rare occasional disconnect/reconnect.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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That's the Marketing BS I was talking about. Normally there would at minimum be a choice of dual SSID and possibly one or the other or auto in setup. I don't see it. I'm also not aware of a separate 5G radio chip for WiFi which brings me to having a analyzer check for the 5GHz Beacon signal (in the 5G range to verify the obvious). Apps such as Android WiFi Analyzer, WiFi Explorer or iOS's Airport utility will provide that. The V1 manual and all three addendum's have no mention of any 5GHZ WiFi other than the marketing BS that you pointed out. This puts Soundcraft in with the rest of the 2 other Mfg. with one significant exception. The Ui has a 10/100/1000 Ethernet (1Ghz) interface thus allowing you to take full advantage of the current crop of WiFi router. :thu:
P.S. Steve it would take you about a minute to verify this :)
Hey Bill, good to see your still around and kicking. Being in the IT trenches for as long as I have really shows that music equipment manufacturers still lag behind the current technologies out there. They are starting to catch up, but more at a snails pace IMHO. Still happy with my MR32c, gave the DL1608 to a friend who uses it for karaoke and my XR18 is still my backup (mostly a dust connector). I run wired if at all possible, but use an external Linksys AC3200 for the most part. Rarely have ANY WiFi issues except a rare occasional disconnect/reconnect.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I see you're in Temecula. How do you like it there? It's up high on my list of places to move before retiring. Wife & I want o get down there this year. She works in the wine industry. Sorry for the topic swerve.
WK, I was on the Soundcraft Ui forum and asked about the 5G wifi (they call it hotspot). It's definitely in the box, and the controls are in the settings page. Many are using it (5G only) with good success. I still plan on using an external router though.
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No problem Steve on the topic swerve. Really enjoy it out here. I live in a city just north of Temecula (Menifee). Quite the music scene In Temecula. A handful of wineries are decent here, but I’m from the Napa area so a bit of a wine snob LOL. What area are you living now?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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No problem Steve on the topic swerve. Really enjoy it out here. I live in a city just north of Temecula (Menifee). Quite the music scene In Temecula. A handful of wineries are decent here, but I’m from the Napa area so a bit of a wine snob LOL. What area are you living now?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
We're in Woodinville, WA, a small eastside suburb of Seattle (about 10k). I have a pretty good music scene around here, just tired of the weather and ready for a change. Our town is wine central, with over 90 wineries. My house is worth a ton of money, and we'll downsize to something much smaller when we move, so that will work in my favor. Glad to hear you like it there - perhaps I'll reach out when we get down there for a visit.
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No problem Steve on the topic swerve. Really enjoy it out here. I live in a city just north of Temecula (Menifee). Quite the music scene In Temecula. A handful of wineries are decent here, but I’m from the Napa area so a bit of a wine snob LOL. What area are you living now?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
We're in Woodinville, WA, a small eastside suburb of Seattle (about 10k). I have a pretty good music scene around here, just tired of the weather and ready for a change. Our town is wine central, with over 90 wineries. My house is worth a ton of money, and we'll downsize to something much smaller when we move, so that will work in my favor. Glad to hear you like it there - perhaps I'll reach out when we get down there for a visit.
Was a Microsoft instructor for many years and made many trips to Redmond. Overcast and rain aren’t my cup of tea. You can get a good amount of land here. Very expensive to life in Seattle and surrounding suburbs these days. Most definitely reach out when you come down here for a visit. Send me your contact info to gio@stefanientertainment.com and I’ll send you my phone contact info.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Hey Bill, good to see your still around and kicking. Being in the IT trenches for as long as I have really shows that music equipment manufacturers still lag behind the current technologies out there. They are starting to catch up, but more at a snails pace IMHO. Still happy with my MR32c, gave the DL1608 to a friend who uses it for karaoke and my XR18 is still my backup (mostly a dust connector). I run wired if at all possible, but use an external Linksys AC3200 for the most part. Rarely have ANY WiFi issues except a rare occasional disconnect/reconnect.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I'll have to agree with you on that and I have been pointing this out for quite some time on this forum. It appears that the communications links are the most behind hence this post. Been busy the last weeks upgrading my wife's chorus audio equipment. It been 5 years since I originally designed it and their requirements have changed along with their rehearsal hall. State tune on that lots of surprises.
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Steve: Since I didn't hear from you for some time I did dig into the WiFi chip further and as it turns out Realtek apparently designed a a/b/g/n version of an otherwise b/g/n chip series. The RTL8192DU is that chip and the spec sheets have mysteriously vanished from their site but it's real. I made the assumption that the chip series was only 2.4 GHz which all their other variants are. Most manufacturers would have given it another part number instead of a modifier, live and learn. It is however wise to use a more modern WiFi router. I am also surprised when I read it that they called it a Hot spot which it clearly is not, it's a AP. Unfortunately Apple only made the Airport Extreme 6th gen to /ac specs and 1GHZ Ethernet. iPad Air 2 on up, mini 4 on up and the Pro series all handle /ac.
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No problem Steve on the topic swerve. Really enjoy it out here. I live in a city just north of Temecula (Menifee). Quite the music scene In Temecula. A handful of wineries are decent here, but I’m from the Napa area so a bit of a wine snob LOL. What area are you living now?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
We're in Woodinville, WA, a small eastside suburb of Seattle (about 10k). I have a pretty good music scene around here, just tired of the weather and ready for a change. Our town is wine central, with over 90 wineries. My house is worth a ton of money, and we'll downsize to something much smaller when we move, so that will work in my favor. Glad to hear you like it there - perhaps I'll reach out when we get down there for a visit.
Was a Microsoft instructor for many years and made many trips to Redmond. Overcast and rain aren’t my cup of tea. You can get a good amount of land here. Very expensive to life in Seattle and surrounding suburbs these days. Most definitely reach out when you come down here for a visit. Send me your contact info to gio@stefanientertainment.com and I’ll send you my phone contact info.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Very generous - thanks!