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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: JohnMHoyt on September 20, 2019, 01:56:10 PM

Title: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 20, 2019, 01:56:10 PM
I use our ipad to play break music, which streams to our Apple airport express, which has its audio output run to the dl32r.

Been working well for years, but lately, it’s been disconnecting randomly or taking a lot longer to connect.

Seems to be after applying the latest iOS...

Anyone else seeing this? 

Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: dpdan on September 20, 2019, 04:25:38 PM
Hi John ,
I am using iOS 12.4.1 and don't have that issue...
I also have one additional Airport Express router with me at all times and an Airport Extreme.
You may have an Express that is going out.
   
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 20, 2019, 05:05:59 PM
Hi John ,
I am using iOS 12.4.1 and don't have that issue...
I also have one additional Airport Express router with me at all times and an Airport Extreme.
You may have an Express that is going out.
 

Tried another router, so I don't think that is the issue.   It seems to be affecting only my iPads with 12.4x on it.  The one iphone that is on 11.x still has no trouble... hrmmm   but I don't want to use that phone, as it's one more device to keep on stage and charged, etc
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: dpdan on September 20, 2019, 11:05:52 PM
hmmmm
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 21, 2019, 12:28:48 PM
I tried disabling bluetooth like was suggested on a long thread of people having similar issues.   It seems to connect much faster, but, after my band played a set, and it was time to start some break music - yep, it had disconnected again.
None of the iPads are disconnecting on wifi, we never lose our Mackie connection, just the airplay connection goes away.

Last week, it stopped playing the break music in the middle of a song when it disconnected... which was unfortunate because people were dancing and I was in the bathroom - embarrassing.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: dpdan on September 22, 2019, 05:34:34 AM
I do not know what could be your problem..... you could try using your iPhone for the break music. If it has no problems losing connection then indeed it is your iPads running 12.4.1
but all my iPads are running 12.4.1 and I do not have that issue at all.
Weird...
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 23, 2019, 06:54:04 PM
At a wedding a few weeks back, I had our sax player sync up and play the requested songs on his iphone and it had no problem either.

My fingers are fat and getting the songs queued up in time so there is no dead air is hard on the iPhone. sigh.

Maybe this new OS will fix my problems...   Wonder if MF will work well on it.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 24, 2019, 06:23:21 AM
I think you are overlooking a lot of other reasons that your iPad can loose connection over time. Overcrowding of the airwaves is the most common especially with a unit long in the tooth. Not knowing the version of equipment leaves me guessing but the Airport Express is long overdue for replacement if you are looking for reliability in a more crowded environment. The a/b/g/n version is two versions behind the current routers and that is the 3rd generation and last  Airport Express version. Streaming music has its own issues and proprietary protocols such as Airplay leave a lot of unanswered questions as well. l would suggest going with a current V5 Bluetooth approach. You will find a lot of outdated material on the Internet on Bluetooth  that is misleading. I am using  Bluetooth V5 units that are low latency AptX with 24bit 96Khz which is clearly overkill for what you need.The range on these are 100M (330 ft.) just like WiFi and with a far more robust protocol than IP/UDP which Airplay is based on.  Its easy enough to test this by playing break music in a frequency quiet location and I bet it will play just fine without disconnects. Tomorrow you could also try iPadOS13 to see if that would also solve your problem or make it worse. Understand that iPhones are using a more current version of WiFi most likely WiFi5 (ac) or WiFi6 (ax) unlike Airport Express WiFi4 (n).
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 24, 2019, 01:20:27 PM
I think you are overlooking a lot of other reasons that your iPad can loose connection over time. Overcrowding of the airwaves is the most common especially with a unit long in the tooth. Not knowing the version of equipment leaves me guessing but the Airport Express is long overdue for replacement if you are looking for reliability in a more crowded environment. The a/b/g/n version is two versions behind the current routers and that is the 3rd generation and last  Airport Express version. Streaming music has its own issues and proprietary protocols such as Airplay leave a lot of unanswered questions as well. l would suggest going with a current V5 Bluetooth approach. You will find a lot of outdated material on the Internet on Bluetooth  that is misleading. I am using  Bluetooth V5 units that are low latency AptX with 24bit 96Khz which is clearly overkill for what you need.The range on these are 100M (330 ft.) just like WiFi and with a far more robust protocol than IP/UDP which Airplay is based on.  Its easy enough to test this by playing break music in a frequency quiet location and I bet it will play just fine without disconnects. Tomorrow you could also try iPadOS13 to see if that would also solve your problem or make it worse. Understand that iPhones are using a more current version of WiFi most likely WiFi5 (ac) or WiFi6 (ax) unlike Airport Express WiFi4 (n).

No overcrowding at all... According to my service monitor and spectrum analyzer, nothing interfering with the wireless where I am now (I even powered down my own 3 Ubiquiti access points and dropped the noise floor to nothing) -

It's random - I had it working for hours here the other day, then today, I switched between MF and back to the music player and it disconnected from the airport for streaming, but wifi never dropped to that iPad.

I guess I can switch to a bluetooth player, but it's just odd that this has worked absolutely perfectly for years - then new IOS and boom, random disconnects.

Honestly, I'm afraid to try the new iPad OS before an important weekend with two shows, so I might have to wait.  Though - really, could it be worse than it is now?

Devices I'm using and status:

iPad Air 2 w/12.4.1 - random disconnects from airplay - none on wifi - I use this on stage for my own monitor mix and to stream music from - this is no more than 12 feet from the Airport, clear line of sight

iPad Pro 12" w/12.4.1 - random disconnects from airplay - none on wifi - main mixer for FOH - have tried it to stream music from when we have a sound person

iPad 2 w/9.3.5 - never tried - we use these for monitor mixes for the band members, we have a couple, but usually only have one active

iPhone 7 Plus - IOS 12.2 - this works flawlessly for streaming via airplay so far.  As did our sax players iPhone.

I am feeling this is an IOS 12x issue with iPads only.

I'll look for a bluetooth adapter I bought a while back - Lord knows what I did with it =)
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 24, 2019, 02:01:00 PM
I found the logitech BT adapter and have it up and running right now. 
Bonus - it AUTOMATICALLY connects every time I power up the system - I don't have to manually select an Airplay device.

BUT - it makes a bluetooth connection and disconnection sound, sooooooo that will be annoying in the mains and IEMs if we don't have it muted at startup time etc.

Will give this a shot.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 24, 2019, 08:27:16 PM
I keep replying to myself. heh

I'm installing iPadOS 13.1 on our iPad Pro 12" - will see if this fixes this problem or creates new ones!
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 25, 2019, 05:03:22 AM
Reminds me of my Sony Walkman that liked to beep for every new song. There are BT units available without these sound effects.The info so far doesn't include the most important part that is giving you the problem. Apple had three versions of the Airport Express with some mayor differences with the last version. Is it MC414LL/A ? As to Bluetooth your iPad Air 2 and Pro both have BT V4.2 but your Logitech BT is V3. It's OK but 4.2 or 5 would be better. The iPad's unfortunately have a limited Apple codecs choice but for break music should suffice. The thing to avoid is double compressing such as using MP3 files to play via Bluetooth on a iPad using AAC. A lossless source file send over BT would be best such as ALAC or FLAC. I am using a pair of BlitzWolf transmitter/receivers with aptX HD codec but my need was for distance and quality. This is overkill for break music. I would have suggested using a iPad that was not needed for loading iPadOS13 and not for your upcoming gigs. I see that you took the plunge, good luck.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 25, 2019, 01:17:07 PM
Reminds me of my Sony Walkman that liked to beep for every new song. There are BT units available without these sound effects.The info so far doesn't include the most important part that is giving you the problem. Apple had three versions of the Airport Express with some mayor differences with the last version. Is it MC414LL/A ? As to Bluetooth your iPad Air 2 and Pro both have BT V4.2 but your Logitech BT is V3. It's OK but 4.2 or 5 would be better. The iPad's unfortunately have a limited Apple codecs choice but for break music should suffice. The thing to avoid is double compressing such as using MP3 files to play via Bluetooth on a iPad using AAC. A lossless source file send over BT would be best such as ALAC or FLAC. I am using a pair of BlitzWolf transmitter/receivers with aptX HD codec but my need was for distance and quality. This is overkill for break music. I would have suggested using a iPad that was not needed for loading iPadOS13 and not for your upcoming gigs. I see that you took the plunge, good luck.

The Airport Express I am currently is A1392, though I tried my my older one as well, which I cannot find right now to give you the version, but it was from when I first got a Mackie DL1608, whenever that came out.
I have the latest firmware on them that they will take.

They worked fine up until a month back when the new IOS came out.  Previously they were both slow to connect to AirPlay from any iPad, taking 5-6 seconds, and sometimes reverting back to the iPad's sound.
But after IOS 12x, it was taking 10-15 seconds sometimes to connect and also taking one to 4 tries to get it to stay connected.
Then randomly disconnecting during playback, making them totally unreliable to play music for cutting the cake etc.

I'm already having to keep up with 3-4 devices to charge, I don't really want to add another one to cover what I have been doing fine for years.

So the bluetooth adapter is working well, a little laggy, but not bad - at least it never disconnected, and the bonus if it connecting as soon as the power is applied without me having to do so as I always had to do with the AirPlay is NICE... LOVELY in fact.

I tried researching a better Bluetooth adapter that would give me the latest standard, and NOT make connection noise, but I cannot find one...

iPadOS 13 seems MUCH faster btw in switching between my music player and the Mackie MF.   So far, so good....    If something should go wrong, we do have old iPads on standby  8-)
I'll let you all know what happens after this weekend (two gigs, a rehearsal, recording a video all in the next 4 days)

Appreciate the input btw!
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 25, 2019, 01:34:59 PM
This one seems like it could be a winner - according to questions/answers, no beep at connection/disconnection?

Any thoughts?

https://www.amazon.com/BluDento-Bluetooth-Receiver-Internal-Streaming/dp/B07BKXP326
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: dpdan on September 25, 2019, 05:25:17 PM
I use this BT receiver for people who need to connect to my system at wedding receptions etc.... It's stereo too, and pairs quickly and reliably, it also has XLR and 1/4" outputs.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1484041-REG/galaxy_audio_jib_bt8r_stereo_portable_bluetooth_audio.html
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 25, 2019, 05:28:23 PM
I use this BT receiver for people who need to connect to my system at wedding receptions etc.... It's stereo too, and pairs quickly and reliably, it also has XLR and 1/4" outputs.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1484041-REG/galaxy_audio_jib_bt8r_stereo_portable_bluetooth_audio.html

Love that it has XLR on it =)
Does it beep when someone connects to it? 
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 25, 2019, 10:58:07 PM
This one seems like it could be a winner - according to questions/answers, no beep at connection/disconnection?

Any thoughts?

https://www.amazon.com/BluDento-Bluetooth-Receiver-Internal-Streaming/dp/B07BKXP326
Too Pricey and if you want to take advantage of high quality audio you need both transmitter and receiver to be able to handle the aptX HD codec. This will only be possible with a pair cause Apple doesn't have that.
https://www.banggood.com/BlitzWolf-BW-BR4-bluetooth-V5_0-HD-Music-Receiver-Transmitter-Audio-2-in-1-Adapter-p-1320978.html?gmcCountry=US&currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_bgs&utm_content=frank&utm_campaign=pla-elc2-us-pc-0720&ad_id=368005069105&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1oC6n4ft5AIVMBitBh1gogCLEAQYASABEgLAh_D_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN
for what I have. You really only need a good BT4.2 or 5 BT receiver with reasonable distance specs (30M) for even less $. Ipad analog will put out 24/48khz but more likely 24/44.1 for your application. No beeps on this one either. I'm always leery of products that don't give you specs such as BT Version#. The above was a quick look on the net you may want to search a bit.
Walmart for a little more.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/BlitzWolf-BW-BR4-2-in-1-Transmitter-Receiver-3-5mm-AUX-SPDIF-Input-Output-RCA/797039243?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227279616451&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=338656452638&wl4=aud-566049426705:pla-684047244234&wl5=9031169&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=797039243&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2Kvtsovt5AIVGMpkCh2mNAHyEAQYBCABEgLb2_D_BwE
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 26, 2019, 01:02:51 PM
Sound quality is not nearly as important as reliable streaming from an iPad without adding on additional transmitters, cables, etc.

I just went ahead and bought one of these units will give it a try.  The 20 dollar logitech that I found in my junk box has proven to me that bluetooth is far superior to AirPlay anyway...   
Even when AirPlay was working better, it always required me to remember to link the iPad to AirPlay before the gig, and to check/double check it before something as important as a first dance with a track.

Bluetooth connects automatically and stays connected.   

I'll let you know how it all goes after this weekend =)

Thanks everyone for the input.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: dpdan on September 26, 2019, 08:29:04 PM
I recorded the two bluetooth outputs and then played some break music so you can see and hear how soft the two beeps are relative to the music.
In a room with anyone talking, the two beeps most likely would not ever be heard.
This was the Galaxy Audio JIB/BT8R.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGhVoZUmhj4

They also make a mono version for 50 bucks.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1482182-REG/galaxy_audio_jib_bt4r_jib_bt4r_mono_bluetooth.html
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 27, 2019, 01:07:49 PM
Thanks for going the extra mile there =)

I did order the one that was cheaper, though it may not get here in time to get it into the system and test before tonight. The el-cheapo logitech with BT3 will work fine (hopefully) until then.
It's working so much better than AirPlay ever did.  Yes, the sound quality when streamed from the iPad Air 2 is just a tad less crisp than when using AirPlay - but it's only really noticeable if I lower the iPad output volume to less than 75%.   Just over 75% seems to be the sweet spot, and it compares nicely with AirPlay there.

The lag is not bad with BT 3, it wouldn't sync with video I bet, but I'm not using that.

I'll report back after the weekend!

Thanks again to everyone for their input and help (and demo!)
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 27, 2019, 03:38:30 PM
I see two potential problems with this unit, one is the realistically 5M range not 10M marketing spec (as long as you don't stray more than 15 or 20ft away line of sight it should be fine) and if you have break music that is true stereo you wont get what you want. Bluetooth A2DP by design is a stereo audio stream. I'm guessing that this product simply drops one track in the drink. I doubt that they combine the two tracks (lack of info here (specs)). Dual mono recordings will work just fine but not true stereo. Once you have this unit it is quite simple to test this with a stereo track one with 440Hz and the other at 1Khz. You should have no problem determining its characteristics.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 27, 2019, 03:52:36 PM
The cheap logitech one is true stereo, I know that much.  Great separation with it.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 27, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
My original suggestion still does everything you need by adding a 3.5mm to XLR or TS cable  (3-5$) and avoid the overpriced and out-dated product your looking at. Future proofing is what I had in mind and I'm sure you all know about that with Apple. The distance issue is also significant in the real world even if you are close to the source without going into the technical details.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 28, 2019, 03:03:06 PM
Oh man - last night was perfect!  Not a single disconnect from AirPlay - no delays.  Bluetooth (using the cheap logitech adapter) was flawless.
Our sound tech said it sounded as good as ever out front.

I had used the Apple Airport Express because it was a reliable router and offered one less piece of equipment to worry with since AirPlay worked well. 
But honestly, it never worked perfectly.   I would sometimes start a song even when it was working what I thought was well - and the ipad would not have gotten set to go to AirPlay and - boom, dead air.

BT is instantly connected.

My on-stage ipad is 10ft away from the rack with the BT receiver, so I don't believe that will be an issue.

Thanks everyone for the input - when the other receiver comes, I will try to update and let you know how it works.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 28, 2019, 05:17:27 PM
John I'm confused as to which one you used, Airplay or Bluetooth? Glad that everything worked out well.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 28, 2019, 05:20:27 PM
John I'm confused as to which one you used, Airplay or Bluetooth?

AirPlay is being sketchy on iPad Air 2 on 12x and iPad OS 13x for me, so I am using Bluetooth.   Last night was with a very cheap logitech receiver.  Worked perfectly. Sounded great.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 28, 2019, 05:25:09 PM
So iPadOS 13 is working just fine as well. No obvious problems that you noticed.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on September 28, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
So iPadOS 13 is working just fine as well. No obvious problems that you noticed.

One problem our sound tech had - but not sure if it is them or what...   When you don't have internet on the router you are using for your sound system, and you do have an ipad with broadband on it, it prompts now with "internet not detected on wifi, use cellular?" or something like that.   You have two options...
Keep trying or use cellular...     When it first prompted, I think I picked to use cellular.

Later in the night, that iPad would no longer connect to the DL32, even though it was showing it in MF4.

Only after disconnecting from wifi and reconnecting did it work again.

Again - not sure if this a bug, or what option I should be picking when it prompts for that.   Will try again tonight.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: WK154 on September 28, 2019, 06:54:52 PM
There should be a setup option to disable broadband (cellular) if not simply enable airplane mode and then individually enable WiFi and if needed Bluetooth in setup. I only have WiFi iPads.
Title: Re: Not a mackie issue - AirPlay disconnecting
Post by: JohnMHoyt on October 23, 2019, 03:42:44 PM
Figured I would follow-up again...

I never put the new bluetooth receiver in place because the old el cheapo one works so well for me.
Not a single glitch. 
Audio is no worse (maybe better?) than when streaming through the Airport Express.
Latency doesn't seem any worse than when I was using the Airport Express.

Best of all, it's always on, never drops out, never have to select it from the iPad like I did the airport - it just works brilliantly.

Using with iPad Pro with latest IOS for the record, and never more than about 30ft from the receiver.   The receiver is gaff-taped to the top of my DL32R in the rack that sits on stage, line of site to everywhere.