Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Wynnd on November 10, 2019, 11:23:42 PM
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What if MF 5.1 works perfectly on a Windows Computer and not on a Mac, should Mackie release MF 5.1 for windows and not for Mac? I would think that's a good idea. NOTE: I don't know what MF 5.1's status is. I don't know what works great and what doesn't. I'm pretty sure if something works for the legacy mixers, they would probably prefer to only work on one type of controller than to not get it soon. We are sure ready for its release and only Mackie knows how close or far that is. They promised a lot with this update. I'm not surprised it is coming slower than originally expected. Cross platform sounds so much easier than it actually is.
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I vote no. A partial release means only parts are working, and distracts the team from a GM release of the real thing. People are beta testing 5.1 - just not us.
If Mackie were to release a alpha or beta of 5.1 and list all the known issues per platform, it becomes self-selecting - only bleeding edge and early adopters will use, and regular users will stay away and not complain to Mackie.
Public betas also allow for more real-world data, especially for all the different flavors of Android devices and windows computers. Add in automatic data to be sent back to Mackie on crashes, and you have a much bigger testing platform in terms of data.
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Very good points. I remember the complaints of White Noise kicking in without warning on the ipad channel. I personally never experienced it, but after enough complaints, Mackie took on fixing it and pretty much rewrote the entire app and that problem never raised it head again. Personally, I don't understand what caused it, but with it gone, not much of a reason to think about it anymore. (Folks, that was a long time ago. It was fixed when the fader controls changed shape. MF 2?)
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Just to keep things correct about the historic "White Noise". You were right that Mackie denied it as their problem for about a year, pointing the finger at Apple Many of us including myself worked the issue during that time with little response from Mackie's BenO. It was fixed by a release of V3.0 but no explanation was ever given by Mackie or BenO, even though I requested one. Clearly a bug that was marginal and difficult to duplicate but devastating for Live Sound. With a little co-operation this would never have been as big a problem as it turned out to be. Mackie I'm certain lost a lot of sales because of this and the readily available alternatives from B.....
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On the subject of providing a 5.1 release for the various platforms I agree with you on a partial release. Any bugs found can certainly be handled for each of the various platforms and the bugs will no doubt vary with the individual platforms as we have already seen in just the iPad/Android release of 5.0. I see no point in releasing them simultaneously. Had Mackie fixed the problem of running under the Bluetooth emulator BlueStacks 4 you would have already had a PC version. There is even a version for the Mac. My X-Air app works just fine on the XR18/12 and M18R/M12R units. Creativity at Mackie is waning :(.
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On the older DL mixers, even an iPad release of MF 5.1 would make them much happier. I really like this mixer and hate to see people passing on it for MF 5.1 not being out yet. Some will not be happy without the Windows or Mac version. Still I'd like to see one version released even if the other versions are ready yet. My take.
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I want to go on record by saying.....
Mackie does not have to offer any updates to existing customers, however, we kinda expect these updates.
Any particular company who makes equipment based around "technology" should expect to lose customers to other companies who do offer and provide "FREE" updates.
I am thrilled beyond belief with my DL32R!!!!
And I eagerly wait for this new update.
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I want to go on record by saying.....
Mackie does not have to offer any updates to existing customers, however, we kinda expect these updates.
Any particular company who makes equipment based around "technology" should expect to lose customers to other companies who do offer and provide "FREE" updates.
I am thrilled beyond belief with my DL32R!!!!
And I eagerly wait for this new update.
Well said.
I would also offer that the same people that kept asking for Android support, Windows support, Mac Support and Kindle Support - well, you're the problem here and the reason the updates are taking so long. If the Mackie team were still focused on iOS only, we would have a steady stream of updates from the small team there. But as soon as everyone wants any Android tablet to work, you've just screwed your development team over big time. Having spent the time to deal with this software development at 2 companies, it's more than 2x the work. QC on Android is a PITA.
I wish Mackie had just said "Nope, get an iPad" and left it at that.
So if you're angry that Mackie's been delayed in releasing 5.1 for some of us and you don't have an iPad, you're partially to blame...
food for thought.
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Yes you are all correct if you want Mackie to be non-competitive and eventually go out of business. I don't want that! As far as the internal software team is concerned I believe a lot is farmed out based on past history. The talent pool at Mackie including management needs to be refreshed. Mackie has had spurts of brilliance in the past and then there was no follow thru. Resting on your laurels and letting others pass you by is more their strategy and that needs to be eliminated.
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Apple tablets are simply not something sound companies and churches DO NOT want to invest in. Not when there are far more affordable options.
So, if Mackie wants to lose A LOT of sales to other companies who do support the other options, they should just keep on doing what they are doing.
I'm in dozens of churches and venues, and they are using the other guys simply because of the Apple vs Android expense. Case in point, I now have a spare DL32R because a church I originally convinced to get one, just dumped it because their praise team members don't own iThings, and they were tired of supplying them and supporting them. It was cheaper to replace the mixer with something else and by inexpensive android tablets. They paid <100 bucks for their tablets this time. Instead of over twice that. Paid for the cost of the mixer they said just to buy everything new.
And no, Mackie should NOT release a partially completed product. Not in my opinion.
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It was cheaper to replace the mixer with something else and by inexpensive android tablets. They paid <100 bucks for their tablets this time. Instead of over twice that. Paid for the cost of the mixer they said just to buy everything new.
And this is exactly the challenge for developers. Cheap Android tablet owners expect the exact same performance, regardless of their components, OS flavor, as an iPad, yet for a developer it's a nightmare to have to expand coding, testing, etc. to cover the gamut of cheap android tablets that may or may not be compliant. So yes, they may work and be less expensive, but in the end it adds cost and overhead to Mackie, which means longer delays for all of us. I don't blame you or the churches for wanting to spend less, but it's important to understand what effect that has on the developer - doesn't matter if they're coding in-house or using outside teams, it's more work.
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Cheap android operators GET that performance too. These churches are using brand b of mixer and have ZERO complaints with their users on their cheap android devices. ZERO. NONE.
But boy they have complaints when a screen gets broken on their iPads and it costs more than a cheap android to fix them. And HUGE complaints when it comes time to replace/upgrade, which is happening now due to operating system changes, batteries dying off, etc.
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I've owned four iPads and only the first had a minor corner crack that had no effect on usage or functionality and that one I had owned since 2013 and it went to the new owner of my DL1608 with a still functional battery in January this year. I have replaced the battery in my 2010 MacBook once, but I don't find myself replacing batteries on Apple products very often. (And when I did replace the MacBook battery, I was still getting more than two hours use on a charge but having gotten more than 10 hours previously, I was feeling cheated.) I'm still using the 2010 MacBook as I'm typing on it right now. I don't own an Android device, though my Wife's phone is one. This isn't a complaint about Android, but a solid vote for iPads. They work, they are stable. And because they provide a lot of what I need, I take an iPad on my Motorcycle trips instead of my MacBook.
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I've owned four iPads and only the first had a minor corner crack that had no effect on usage or functionality and that one I had owned since 2013 and it went to the new owner of my DL1608 with a still functional battery in January this year. I have replaced the battery in my 2010 MacBook once, but I don't find myself replacing batteries on Apple products very often. (And when I did replace the MacBook battery, I was still getting more than two hours use on a charge but having gotten more than 10 hours previously, I was feeling cheated.) I'm still using the 2010 MacBook as I'm typing on it right now. I don't own an Android device, though my Wife's phone is one. This isn't a complaint about Android, but a solid vote for iPads. They work, they are stable. And because they provide a lot of what I need, I take an iPad on my Motorcycle trips instead of my MacBook.
You are one user, who takes care of their gear. A church or a sound company has many users, some of which don't care about other people's gear. It's expensive to fix a screen, it's expensive to replace a battery, it's expensive to buy a new one, or to upgrade to when your OS is no longer supported. That is why you are seeing less and less iPads and more Androids.
In my line of work, I deal with hundreds of users across many companies, providing IT for them... And I've watched the Apple products fading considerably in business too, for some of the same reasons. Why invest in an expensive iPad when an inexpensive android will work with o365 just as well?
I personally have 8 Apple iPads here at my office/studio. Ranging from very old to the latest and greatest. I don't care of them. I grab a little fire hd8 to browse on more often than not. It's lighter, and it runs my leviton software far better when I need it. Really, the only thing I use the ipads for now is the Mackie, and only because I have to.
I've got some Apple computers around, super high end, but no longer use those either unless I am working on an issue a client is having and need a test bed.
Some examples of why Apple just is absolutely horrible... Let's start with the company who had new Apple Macbook Pros that were part of "flexgate". We had 40 some odd computers with the problem. Apple refused to acknowledge it existed for months and months!!!!!! The company spent plenty of time with those geniuses.. hahahha I had one of these computers too - I fixed it myself.... But if I had touched them for my client, it would have voided the warranty for all it was worth. They shelved them and they sat there for months while their employees happily used cheap windows PCs. Then they finally got them fixed when Apple FINALLY a year later said they would fix them.
iPhone battery repair is stupid... Apple doesn't want to fix old ones... they want to sell you a new one - so now, on several models, if you attempt to replace the battery or screen, you get a compatibility warning, thanks to Apple being proprietary. I've got clients with boxes of iPhones that they just replaced rather than take a chance on repair - but they replaced them with android phones.
You will never convince me that apple is better - not when I work with them every day and see the expenses my clients incur....
I can replace a standard 15.6" windows based notebook screen for <150 bucks including labor. I just paid 400 dollars for an apple panel.
My cost was 200 bucks for a screen for a 21.5" iMac.. and a good bit of labor to replace it. Compared to replacing the whole monitor for a client with a 27" one for 160 dollars on a standard windows PC.
But back to these Mackies... Businesses and churches know these things, apple products are expensive, and they also know they are not getting any better performance or longevity out of them, so they are buying Androids, and Windows based PCs... Why so as they replace those pricey apple things, why would they want to purchase or use a product that REQUIRED THEM? Like Mackie DLs?
I know I don't want to, and will not do it again. I don't want to replace an iPad that is aging, just to use it for running sound on a DL32R for a band or event that pays very little in the first place.
Additionally, I won't purchase any mixer that locks me to one hardware vendor again. That was a huge error in judgement on my part.
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Again, this isn't about what's better or worse for the end user. My whole point is that when you only support one OS, things are easier/faster for the developer. Mackie started with iOS and it's a much easier ecosystem for development. B*(&nger started with Android for their system. Once you expand and try to be all things to every OS, something's bound to give. In this case, it's lack of updates.
I'm speaking from the developer side as someone who has had to go through this with 2 different iOT items at two different companies. Even starting with the same Unity codebase, supporting 2 OS versions is more work than non developers realize. If I were to start over, I'd stay with apple only because of much less testing, same OS on all versions that are supported, etc. Nothing to do with which is better.
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It was cheaper to replace the mixer with something else and by inexpensive android tablets. They paid <100 bucks for their tablets this time. Instead of over twice that. Paid for the cost of the mixer they said just to buy everything new.
And this is exactly the challenge for developers. Cheap Android tablet owners expect the exact same performance, regardless of their components, OS flavor, as an iPad, yet for a developer it's a nightmare to have to expand coding, testing, etc. to cover the gamut of cheap android tablets that may or may not be compliant. So yes, they may work and be less expensive, but in the end it adds cost and overhead to Mackie, which means longer delays for all of us. I don't blame you or the churches for wanting to spend less, but it's important to understand what effect that has on the developer - doesn't matter if they're coding in-house or using outside teams, it's more work.
A REALITY CHECK here. Buyers are well aware that you get what you pay for and certainly don't expect the same performance or features of a inexpensive device vs a top of the line one. If they do then it's time to ignore their opinions. As to the effect it has on developers and their "difficulties" its time to find developers up to the job. I would certainly take David Schuhmann over all of the Mackie Android team in developing this application. Its quite simple to provide a list of devices (model# etc.) for the inexperienced to provide a shopping list of their tested devices. Neither Mackie or Behringer provide this unfortunately and there should be nothing to prevent this. It may even provide an incentive for tablet Mfg. to provide free test samples to Mackie as marketing expense. The Beta program also will provide other test device input. This is nothing new in the software industry. Stating the obvious is getting old quick Mackie.
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John I respect your opinion but I would like to hear the reasons why?
"And no, Mackie should NOT release a partially completed product. Not in my opinion. "
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I reckon the companies that are doing it just have a lot more in the way of resources to develop their products and keep their users happy.... Those resources could be a result of having a larger client base due to expanded platform offerings, maybe.
Mackie can continue to support the one ecosystem I reckon. Maybe they can maintain a nice little niche of people who like being locked into one tablet manufacturer by changing marketing strategies and claiming they are the only ones who support just the one. Exclusivity turns some people on.
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I understand the customer view that software updates should be free, but Compare with any DAW. I use Cubase and generally upgrades in a version are about $100 for a previous version user. Personally, I wouldn't be against Mackie charging for an upgrade version. Being it's an app, $100 would be too much. But most wouldn't be fazed by $20 - $50. Cheaper to upgrade the firmware and app, then to purchase a new mixer. My take anyway. Also, I hold some Apple Stock and that has been much better to me than any of their products, but I really have come to appreciate the products they make. No manufacturer is perfect and all have products that just don't work, but I'm still using my nearly 10 year old MacBook and don't want to upgrade until Apple starts making them available with a touch screen. (Something they talk like they will never do.)
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My new Dell laptop with touch screen. Small, heavy for its size, considered a two way laptop/tablet. Reasonable amount of memory, slow processor and about two hours on battery. No back lit keyboard. When used as a tablet, you have to have a flat surface to put it on because the keyboard is still active. And it doesn't do 5Ghz Wifi. I got it cheap. When I bought my MacBook Pro in 2010, I was only interested in the Firewire 400 for my recording hardware. With that I got 10 hours of battery life, backlit keyboard, better screen than most laptops at that time, dual band Wifi capable, a read/write DVD/CD optical drive. (The optical drive is the only failure I've had.) I also was able to upgrade the memory and processor. I did the memory, but the fastest processor isn't much faster than I already have. I've upgraded the Hard Drive twice. Currently running a SS one. It's now fast enough to record 16 tracks to the SS drive. Previously I had to record to an external firewire drive.
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Getting back to the OP's original question and statements let me summarize things and correct some clear misconceptions expressed here.
The first sentence stated clearly "works perfectly" doesn't imply partial or Beta release. At last count there are four distinct products (iOS, Android, PC, MacOS) trying to serve six different mixer hardware products (Dl806, Dl1608, Dl16S, DL32S DL32R and Axis (DC16)). Just because this release is called V5.1 doesn't imply one product just it's functionality level. If just based on the control platforms it's at minimum four different products if not more. So what contrived reason would dictate a simultaneous release of all products? A poor marketing decision IMHO :). There are even clear benefits to staggered releases the least of which is the appearance of some progress. There also seems to be a misconception that there is only one development team. I can safely state that it's not the case in any reasonable product development of this nature. Behringer X-Air also started with the PC version (not Android) and the Android was subcontracted to David Schuhmann. In the case of Mackie trying to make all cross products look alike shouldn't prove a major obstacle since the basic design has been around since at least 2010. Over time more functionality was added and the development platform was changed courtesy of Apple strong arm tactics. Any new changes of the UI are minimal and easily defined for all teams and already exist (V5.0). They are not reinventing the wheel here! Statements such as "complete rewrite" is nonsense. Someone at Mackie could chime in and correct any of my assumptions, please do.
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That sounds like a vote for a staggered release if any of the products is ready.
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Something wrong with your MBP Wyndd, I bought a secondhand 2000 G3 500 powerbook and a MOTU 828 in 2002 and for 15 years at most of my gigs recorded up to 18 24bit tracks into Logic (adding a MOTU 2408 and something called a flying cow!) onto it's enormous 12Gb internal drive. Never a problem and it's still working now in retirement. Which is more than I can say of myself!
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Before I got a faster drive, I would have total dropouts every so often. Now I don't. Not sure what the actual problem is, but I really don't care as it's not there anymore. Also, recording isn't the critical thing for me. (I don't do much of it.)
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Why the fuzz? These mixers have been partial since day one. I bought mine when a user said he had a breakthrough on Android control after some reverse engineering and ampmix promised universal control. Then Mackie shut them all down and promised more than a year ago to widen their platform. It's a farce and I've bought a Soundcraft ui24r (which works great on all platforms) and will most likely not touch a Mackie product again.
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It's a farce and I've bought a Soundcraft ui24r (which works great on all platforms) and will most likely not touch a Mackie product again.
Then why bother to come to these forums if you have moved on? Mackie must hold some interest for you to invest your precious time reading and replying.
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Only reason I can see, is he's pissed that we aren't following him. I'm fine and MF 5.1 will only be a small improvement. I've had almost a year of use with the DL16S and I'm quite happy with it. I didn't have to purchast any new tablets to use it. (I had two ready for the next MF upgrade already for use with my DL1608.)
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I've considered moving away from Mackie specifically because of multi platform support. I've looked at the offerings, tried them out. But none of them offer exactly what I want across the board. Three dl32r hits more of my needs and wants than anything else. I'm not willing to sacrifice in the other areas just to get multi platform support just yet. I'll hang in there a little longer....
When/if I do go, I don't think I'll have the time to invest in complaining about Mackie. But who knows. Maybe I will. Hehe
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Only reason I can see, is he's pissed that we aren't following him. I'm fine and MF 5.1 will only be a small improvement. I've had almost a year of use with the DL16S and I'm quite happy with it. I didn't have to purchast any new tablets to use it. (I had two ready for the next MF upgrade already for use with my DL1608.)
Having sold more than 100 units of these fenced in boxes to costumers since their first release I struggle to recommend Mackie over the other options available. No OSC, web or MIDI support, a total mess every time there's an update and two or three users haven't updated their apps etc. I've switched my recommendations to other brands.
I do still own a DL1608 for simple tasks. Recording has been hit and miss, ground related noise galore using standard PSU without a UPS. It's using an iPad 3 and an iPhone 6 for control. I do prefer my Moto or Soundcraft rig for maximum flexibility when doing a multiuser setup. None of these rigs are however perfect. I want Mackie to step up their game to keep these others pushing for the better.
Incerdible how people take criticism against their preferred gear as a personal assault. Generation easily violated are hard at play.
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Chill out guys, we are about facts not emotions or opinions other than those based on facts (substantiated) and reproducible. Time will be the ultimate judge.
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hahaha I'm chill =)
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Currently happy with MF 4.x, so when the update happens great, but not losing sleep. I'm taking the same approach with Pro Tools compatibility with Catalina - when it's approved, then I'll update, but I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything with my setup until then. I'll be at NAMM in January and will visit the booth; maybe more will be revealed then...
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My problem moved on. Sold my DL1608. Enjoy the future.
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thanks. Downloading Catalina as we speak as Avid released their compatible Pro Tools version today.
Sorry you sold the 1608, but hopefully you've upgraded to something that works better for your needs.