Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Yorgaki1 on February 21, 2020, 03:23:59 AM
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Like most, I Had a bit of a struggle getting mf5.1/dl32r running on my multiple ipads which are all running the latest iOS 12.4.5, as they’ a bit older.
I loaded 5.1 on my 3 iPads and iPhone (running 13). Opened 5.1 on my main iPad ( which isn’t used for anything else during a gig) answered yes to converting over my mf4 shows & Connected this main iPad to my 32r, and did the firmware update. Once complete, that iPad connected fine. Opened 5.1 on the other 2 iPads, answered yes to converting over the mf4 shows, and when I tried to connect, got the dreaded load and crash. I deleted 5.1 on those 2, rebooted, reloaded 5.1, answered no to converting over the mf4 shows, ( thinking this might be a possible conflict), and voila, they all connected without crashing.
Had first gig last Saturday and had 2 issues. First, This has been discussed already and I’m having the same issue, Grow and glow fader response is awful. Once it finally grows, the fader level jumps by what seems like up to 10db, based on the direction you’re moving the fader. I had to be very delicate to avoid the big changes in level.
Second, I had a couple of disconnections, which seem to be linked to a new cheapo dual wireless handheld mic system I added recently (for speeches and paging, not critical vocal reproduction). It runs on 2.4 ghz. Turned off the mic and iPad immediately reconnected. I’m running an Apple airport express on 5ghz. So here are my questions, is there a method to avoid this disconnecting assuming it’s a frequency issue? Apple has stopped making this little router that has been a workhorse for me for over 7 years, is there a better model you recommend, as I feel like I need to carry a backup as this little guy is getting old.
Overall, If Mackie gets grow and glow response back to where it should be, I’m good. Is this happening to you guys with the latest and greatest iPads, or is the issue somehow my older iPads?
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Hi Yorgaki1,
my opinion about your slow "grow & glow" and disconnection issues I believe are all related to your old iPads.
I am sticking with 4.6.2 on my two DL32R units. I have a DC16 so that's why. If I did not have the DC16 I would indeed use 5.1 because the new features are so great.
I beta tested 5 for ages with my Generation 6 iPad 9.7 inch devices and there are absolutely no issues like you are having with 5.1 on a DL32R.
iPads are getting more and more affordable every day. I would suggest a new Generation 7 iPad for under three bills.
Yes, I am aware that there are other "tablets" available for far less, but I personally have no experience with them which is why I suggest the iPad.
https://www.microcenter.com/product/612225/apple-ipad-7---space-gray-(late-2019)
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From what you have explained there are some issues. First if your AE is only in the 5 GHz range the 2.4 GHz mics should have no effect unless they are also in the 5 GHz range. The mics are most likely BT (Bluetooth). Now for the adrenaline rush for the Apple fans, Apple is behind in the 5g and WiFi arena and out of the router business. I would recommend an 802.11/ax unit if for no other reason but to future proof it. Although not many tablets are using ax at present (Surface Pro 7 being one with ax) ac units can still benefit from an ax router such as
https://www.walmart.com/ip/NETGEAR-Nighthawk-AX4-4-Stream-AX3000-Wi-Fi-6-Router-RAX35-100NAS/760226420?athcpid=760226420&athpgid=athenaItemPage&athcgid=null&athznid=PWVUB&athieid=v0&athstid=CS004&athguid=b59e7f08-b5b-1702907563370c&athancid=null&athena=true
At $129 it’s not breaking the bank. I am currently upgrading my network to ax, unfortunately the Tablets are not a practical upgrade, and there is something to be said for laptops in this instance. Intel has a M2/PCIe module for ax the AX200 at ~$20 for the upgrade for W10.
As for disconnects that is still a Mackie issue that needs to be fixed and no router can fix that. In my recent tests the W10 indicated that there was an Internet connection but there is no status for the DL connection. To fix that simply disconnect the WiFi connection in Windows setup and reconnect on the same router. This will reestablish the mixer connection with the DL and allow continued communications. No app needs to be restarted. No iPad is currently available with ax :(
Only iPhone 11 has ax.
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Thanks boys for your replies.
I picked up that netgear router at my local walmart, and will give it a try tomorrow night as we've got a dinner dance for 200+ in Chatanooga.
Like both of you, I can't believe the power we have at our finger tips with this mixer. I chuckle when I think back to the tens of thousands of pounds of load in and out, hours of running cables and interconnects, and have tried to forget coiling up a 16x8 100' snake at 2am when you're exhausted. I couldn't do it now. Maybe because I'm 55 and I've gotten comfortable with mf, and the form factor of the 32r is perfect for me. Mf's layout makes sense to me. I love this little mixer.
I hope dc16 support comes back at some point for you dpdan (mf6). I can understand how bummed you are.
I really appreciate both of you, as well as some of the others here that are working hard to keep this group alive. I check in everyday.
Thanks!
George
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyeaf7-Y03c
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thanks for your very kind words!
I too still love the DL32R, and I am in the same boat as you, the lid for my analog console weighed about as much as my entire six space SKB case with five Sennheiser wireless receivers and ADJ Airstream DMX transmitter plus Airport Express router. I do not miss stacking the lids of my DSP racks.
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I'll second that on the kind words George. I do hope you will not try to open the box at your venue, you will need time to get familiar with all the features. Make sure that 2.4 and 5 GHZ are on separate SSID's. Bring that intimidating AE with you to keep that Netgear from misbehaving. It works for Wynnd :). Please let us know how it went. The only snakes I now deal with are the singers sssss. A matter of mic technique and "I know how to use a mic". A loosing battle.
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Dan I still think that Mackie could produce a iPad ONLY version of MF for the AXIS system. No-one with that system has any investment in other control surfaces anyways. I'm sure the effort would be minimal compared to a diverse platforms version if that's even possible. I also would have thought that you would have been testing the AXIS version all along. What is wrong at Mackie?
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they never provided a beta for the Axis, and I repeatedly asked why we were not able to test 5.1 on a computer in "desktop" mode, now we know why...
all the time I took explaining in detail about things that still were not fixed, then BOOM! It is released... :(
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Dan I have a question about your configuration that you used for test. Since you have a DC16 and a Dante card in the DL32R are you just using the Dante card input for your normal router input. I believe that's a 1 Gbs connection and the standard DL32R network card input is only a 100 Mbps. This I believe can make a difference in the results. I still don't understand the reluctance of the MI to stay a little more up-to date in networking. The cost is actually less for the 1 Gbs chips variety. The 100 Mbs is almost extinct.
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Hi WK, I don't have a DL16S... oh you meant DC16... sorry,
The Dante card has two ethernet ports labeled A and B and one labeled WiFi control.
Most of my jobs I never even bring the DC16, on the jobs that I do, I have the A port of the DL32R's Dante card connected to the A port at FOH on the DC16.
The router's ethernet cable is connected to the WiFi control port on the DL32R as always.
The rest of your questions are over my head... :)
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Right Dan. I fixed the typo to DC16. Perhaps I wasn't clear on my question. I was trying to find out if the connection was into a DL32R with a Dante card WiFi control port or the Standard DL32 network card control port that you were using. Since you have two DL32R's do you also have both with a Dante card? The Dante card WiFi control ports and the standard are at different speeds (Dante is ten times faster). Dante needs 1Gbs the standard is only 100Mps which most have that are using just the DL32R. The Dante card in fact has 5 1Gbs Ethernet ports and and 2 external optional and is a switch (Marvel 88E6350R chip). Three of which are made available (A,B, Control port). Technical, yes just an old habit, sorry.... :) . The point being that with the newer iPads (faster processors) and the Dante card (faster network) should make the response much snappier at a price :( . It can also affect connection issues especially the network speed at 1,000% faster.
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Hi WK, when it comes to ethernet, IP addresses, pinging etc.. :) I am at a loss. I do have a Dante card in both of my DL32R units... I did not know about the faster Wi-Fi Control port's speed on the Dante cards, that is really cool, (THANKS AUDINATE!) What I do know is that I have been very happy with how instantaneous the response of things are with the iPads. I use 9.7" iPads which are Gen 6.
I have both DL32R mixers set up identical so that in the event one of them would go down... I quickly swap the Elco (EDAC) multi-pin for the short stage snake and I would then need to patch the five wireless receivers which are not part of the Elco multi-pin. I figure if I ever had to do that I (we) whoever that might be would be down for under three minutes,, that of course would seem like three hours but to have an identical mixer ready to go is comforting. Boot up the backup DL32R, choose to use the show from the iPad and then we're back well, as close as we were when I last saved the snapshot, which I do probably every couple of songs. Naturally, I have never needed the second (backup) DL32R.
I did a pretty big production at a local church at Christmas and I used both DL32R mixers. I used the (backup) DL32R on stage right for strings and woodwinds, (each instrument mic'd) and the other one on stage left for brass and percussion. I had the left and right main outs of the Strings/Woods mixer connected to two inputs on the main DL32R. I used one iPad for the Strings/Woods mix and a second iPad for the main DL32R mix. The stereo outputs of the "main" DL32R fed the church's Allen & Heath SQ6 where bass guitar, electric guitar, keyboards and drums were on their typical inputs. I think we ran somewhere near 60 inputs including praise team singers wireless mics, 6 choir mics and I can't remember the rest. All I know is it took over an hour for me to wrap all my mic cables (S-wrap). I am a stickler and kindly turn down someone's offer to help wrap cables. Anyway, everything worked great.
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Sounds like you have everything under control (except Mackie :)) and yes you are then using a 1Gbs connection for control. I get the tear down process, its faster than training someone else on the spot to help and get it right. Maybe something can be done to convince Mackie to change their mind about AXIS.
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Maybe something can be done to convince Mackie to change their mind about AXIS.
I wish you were right,,, but I think the management at Mackie, (if there is such a thing)... looks at the DC16 as a child with special needs.
Nobody wants one of those ... sadly.
Update Master Fader for the tens of thousands of users, and give the middle finger to a thousand or so DC16 users. :-[
On another note... Feb 1st was my last post on the Mackie "BETA" forum and nobody has been able to post anything, so, I guess they decided to no longer support that either....
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Let me look at a couple of avenues over the next month. I remember another outfit in the Pro Audio business not too long ago, a division of Panasonic called RAMSA. They provided the Beatles with their road gear. The powers to be disbanded the division and left the users high and dry. Two years later they tried to reenter the market with a brand new digital line of mixers and no support for their previous lines. Well they no longer exist in that business courtesy of their old user base. Reputations (Good Will in Co. lingo) has value and $$ is what investors are all about. Mackie's plunder of course is nowhere near what Panasonic pulled but it will cost them just the same. Products are discontinued all the time due to newer models, but promising features in a current product and not delivering is frowned upon. We all can vote with our purchases.
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We all can vote with our purchases.
you got that right!
I remember Ramsa, their stuff was pretty incredible then as you say,,, they piss-a-deared.
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George (Yorgaki1),
We here would still like some feedback on you gig with the new Netgear router. Good and bad that you experienced'
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Mr. WK... I am going to purchase a new Cisco Linksys router.
I realize like anything else, I could spend a fortune on a new one, but I am interested to know what you would suggest about which "current" model that has a super dooper strong
signal. You know way more than most about these things and I value your opinion.
How about this one?
https://www.linksys.com/us/p/P-WRT3200ACM/
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Dan I am assuming that you are just replacing your current Apple AirPort router. Let’s first get some common misconceptions out of the way. We are talking about an Intranet system (no Internet). The Wan port is not connected to anything. This has caused some confusion on indicator lights in the past on Apple routers. BTW Linksys is now owned by Belkin not Cisco if that matters. Since you are currently limited to iPad’s the latest standard they adhere to is the 802.11AC. No iPads support the new AX standard only the iPhone 11. The real benefits of AX are in its ability to handle a higher traffic rates in the WiFi bands. This may translate into higher speeds but this is not an issue for this application especially since you are using a Dante card in your units (1Gbps). The current offerings of routers in the AX world handle multiple streams (Video mostly) and have no real benefit in this application. What I have proposed in the past is Netgears 2x2 (4 streams) RAX40 router for this since it provides all the benefits for the older clients (iPads etc.) without going overboard with 8 to 12 streams currently available, a waste of resources for this application. The current clients are only 2x2 or 4 streams) anyway. Walmart has a special deal for a RAX35 (Netgear to Walmart exclusive) which in essence is a RX40 without the USB 3 port. Unless that is important a RX35 is fine and now is at $109. I have owned Cisco (the real Cisco) Linksys, Dlink, Netgear and just recently (3 days ago) an ASUS routers and find them quite satisfactory for my applications. I have recommended the AX4 Netgear for a XR16 based sound system for a theater application recently. Linksys at present has no equivalent and has concentrated on the high end of the spectrum with Velop AX MX10 mesh. They would certainly do the job but are overkill for this application. There are dual band routers available by ASUS, TP-Link and others that would suite this application.
I am currently upgrading my networks and opted for an ASUS RT88U as my primary router. Main reason was 8 1Gbps ports and Beacon time control. I am retaining my Netgear Nighthawk R7900 to handle all the AC devices that eventually will be phased out. None of my road gear has more than AC routers at present.
In conclusion Dan the key is to go with an AX (WiFi 6) based router but not get drawn into the latest craze of expensive Mesh routers for this application.
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thanks for the very detailed info WK!
As far as the WAN port for an internet connection, I am all too familiar with that. During initial setup with the Airport Utility App, I have always instructing the Apple Airport Express and Extreme to "Ignore this issue" with regard to "Ethernet Unplugged" and other "Status Messages" but thanks for that, many people just deal with the yellow light and have never had a pretty green one on the front of the router like they should.
Believe it or not, I am going to be using this new router with my new Yamaha TF mixer. It too will have a Dante card, but unlike the Dante card for the Mackie, the ethernet port for the router is on the rear of the mixer, not part of the Dante card.
As you have heard me say before too many times... my Apple routers have always provided nothing but stellar performance for me and my DL32R units, even at what I call great distances. Ironically, this TF mixer and Apple router are sitting only a few feet apart, and the TF mixer's app (Yamaha's StageMix) is losing connection and reconnecting every three to four minutes, sometimes more often than that. I called Yamaha's tech support on Friday and of course they said "we don't recommend the Apple routers". So, I asked him, OK, what DO you recommend? He then said... "just about any router by Lynksys is good", so I am not ditching the Apple routers for the DL32R units just yet, until after I ditch the DL32R and DC16. I connected a really cheap six year old Netgear router to the Yamaha TF mixer, and while it is occasionally losing connection just sitting here, it is far more reliable than the Apple Airport Express. I also read a long time ago that for instance, an iPad could likely receive an even better Wi-Fi connection if it wasn't sitting so dang close to the router. Kinda like expecting phenomenal radio signal for a radio station sitting in your car at the base of the transmitting tower. Maybe that's not a good analogy but, as the teenage girls say these days....
Whut....ever!!!
So, should I get an ASUS something.... or just go with the one you suggested? I can not find the RAX35 on Walmart's site.
Thanks for your help and the detailed information about streaming video signals, but as you say, we don't need that for our purposes.
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Well a rolling stone gathers no moss, hello Yamaha! Reverb is a good place to sell your AXIS system. Since I eventually had to pick up a Netgear AX4 anyways I picked one up at my local Walmart Superstore about 4 hrs. ago. Will let you know how that works out. The problem your describing should not be even at a close proximity. Here is the link for the Netgear:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/NETGEAR-Nighthawk-AX4-4-Stream-AX3000-Wi-Fi-6-Router-RAX35-100NAS/760226420?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227314015343&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=391952074786&wl4=aud-430887228898:pla-831270607801&wl5=9031169&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=760226420&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI99u79riL6AIVlONkCh1TzgUQEAYYASABEgIv-_D_BwE
My first impression is that its kinda flimsy especially the no-removable antennas. I forget which Airport you have, the Express or the Extreme? That link should be the same no mater what its attached to. I'll look at it later. My only digital Yamaha I had experience with was the PM5D.
Cheers.
P.S. Can you set your DL32R near the Yamaha and since we are talking about moving one cable see if the same results is with the DL32R. This would eliminate the setup and leave things with Yamaha.
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thank you for the link...
I am waiting for Yamaha tech support to call me back shortly.
I can only use up to three iPads with the Yamaha mixer running StageMix, Mackie (up to twenty)
I have four iPads, two of which are gen 5 and two are gen 6, all running the latest iOS 13.3.1.
What is confusing to me is that one of the gen 5 iPads is solid, no disconnects.
Certainly I don't have three defective iPads, and here's how I know...
Yamaha also has a second app to allow musicians to run their own mix on their phones or iPads and
this "Monitor Mix" app runs flawlessly on all four iPads simultaneously. Up to ten devices can use Monitor Mix.
Yamaha also has a third app for computers, Mac and Windows and it is called TF Editor, it too runs absolutely flawless without any disconnects whatsoever.... all of these
descriptions above are the same regardless of the router I use,,, three different Airport Express routers, one Airport Extreme and even an old Netgear. All perfect, but not the StageMix app.
I will come back shortly and report what Yamaha tells me.
Thanks WK!
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OK, I just got off the phone with Yamaha tech support which is nothing short of FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I actually read to him the previous post to this one, that I had just made here describing my dilemma in detail,
he immediately figured out why the StageMix app was constantly disconnecting...
it turns out that ONLY ONE StageMix app can run at a time.
The system can run up to ten Monitor Mix apps, including one StageMix and one instance of TF Editor for computer.
So, I do not need to buy a new router for this Yamaha TF mixer. I will continue to use my Apple routers till they DIE! or Apple creates an iOS "UPDATE" that will forever KILL their routers:) Maybe they will outlast me.
I apologize for all the time you wasted on this stuff, all it took is for one youtube video to lead me to believe that I could run three instances of StageMix simultaneously,,, but NOPE.
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Update:
Good news: I've used the Nighthawk Ax4 router for 2 gigs without any problems. Seems to be rock solid without any noticeable disconnections. It takes a bit longer to bootup compared to the AE. I've got a bunch of outdoor summer festivals booked, kicking off in May. Hopefully all will work well with a few thousand cell phones in close proximity. Hopefully the virus wont screw up the coming festival season to much.
Also, I sold my old ipad that was giving me fits with the fader response issues I was having. (Got $100 for it, which I thought was decent) I took your advise and picked up the brand new ipad 10.2" 7th gen (late 2019) for $239 from my local microcenter which is close by. Those stores are unbelievable. Next gig is on the 21st.
Thanks for the recommendations!
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Dan I thought that the control limitation might be the problem. Glad you found it. Not like the Mackie with 20 cooks in the kitchen. I am sending this via the AX4 and it was definitely slow with DHCP and other tasks such as firmware updates. Patience is required with this one. The response otherwise seems to be good. A little early to weed out other issues and I expect some additional firmware updates down the road. I will be testing this for a while.
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Update:
Good news: I've used the Nighthawk Ax4 router for 2 gigs without any problems. Seems to be rock solid without any noticeable disconnections. It takes a bit longer to bootup compared to the AE. I've got a bunch of outdoor summer festivals booked, kicking off in May. Hopefully all will work well with a few thousand cell phones in close proximity. Hopefully the virus wont screw up the coming festival season to much.
Also, I sold my old ipad that was giving me fits with the fader response issues I was having. (Got $100 for it, which I thought was decent) I took your advise and picked up the brand new ipad 10.2" 7th gen (late 2019) for $239 from my local microcenter which is close by. Those stores are unbelievable. Next gig is on the 21st.
Thanks for the recommendations!
Glad everything worked out for you. Netgears is usually on top of things and have never disappointed. Expect some more firmware updates and this is for all AX products and not just Netgear.
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Dan which TF did you pick up? Yes your decision to stay with your current routers is fine. When you do run into traffic issues you have a way out for a while.
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TF Rack,
(1) Tio1608-D which is a 2U external audio Dante stage box,
and a Dante card for the TF Rack.
That gives me 32 inputs and about 24 outputs,
without sounding sarcastic,
it will be nice to not have to send audio to the right main output and crank the level to full blast including distortion, just to create enough resistance in the ribbon cable connection then, turn down, and unmute the mains, after that parade of shenanigans, (which is common practice at every job) the right channel will work for the rest of the gig without any problem.
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OK, I just got off the phone with Yamaha tech support which is nothing short of FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I actually read to him the previous post to this one, that I had just made here describing my dilemma in detail,
he immediately figured out why the StageMix app was constantly disconnecting...
it turns out that ONLY ONE StageMix app can run at a time.
The system can run up to ten Monitor Mix apps, including one StageMix and one instance of TF Editor for computer.
So, I do not need to buy a new router for this Yamaha TF mixer. I will continue to use my Apple routers till they DIE! or Apple creates an iOS "UPDATE" that will forever KILL their routers:) Maybe they will outlast me.
I apologize for all the time you wasted on this stuff, all it took is for one youtube video to lead me to believe that I could run three instances of StageMix simultaneously,,, but NOPE.
I was looking at Yamaha's TF Editor description here https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/software/tfeditor/index.html and their claim is "Up to three devices running TF Editor or StageMix can be connected at the same time." Well since I have no way to verify this but you do, they can't both be right and Yamaha needs to fix that.
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Hi WK,
Happy Memorial day to you and your Sweet Adeline :) Not sure if I ever told you that I do all the recording, editing and mixing for World Champions The Ambassadors of Harmony here ins St. Louis Missouri, but because of the stupid COVID, nobody is singing together, this virus has caused every one of my booked jobs to be cancelled or rescheduled to next year. :-[
So, the TF mixer can use one instance of Stagemix which is the FOH app, which only runs on an iPad or an Android tablet, then the TF can also be simultaneously controlled by a computer program called TF Editor and finally, up to (I believe) ten Monitor Mix apps on tablets or phones.
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Hi Dan,
Happy Memorial day to you and your family. I do remember your BHS involvement from some time ago just not the specifics. For your sake and others I hope this will be gone in a year, stay safe. I'm waiting till the end of May to determine if its a go for a family get together in Maui. This would be the second cancellation of trips due to this bug. No fun dealing with airlines on cancellations, especially United. Will you be doing what you did for Mackie now for Yamaha on U-Tube?
Cheers
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Hi WK,
I am not going to make any video toots of the TF Rack because I get overwhelmed with people asking questions and of course, when somebody asks me what time it is,
I tell them how to build a watch... :facepalm:
No regrets making the videos that I did for Mackie's customers, they will still be valuable to newcomers.
:)
I just want to get back to doing sound jobs.
wash your hands Roger :)