Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: RoadRanger on March 27, 2013, 04:37:12 PM
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I think the five most needed "fixes" for me are:
#1: An "always visible" master FX mute on the top line just to the right of the "Mixer" button (when present),
#2: Stereo linking of inputs for keyboards and playback sources.
#3: Stereo linking of outputs for IEM's and/or keyboard monitors.
#4: Aux sends switchable to pre-comp, per aux and preferably per channel.
#5: Pad the iPad playback by 10 dB
Whatcha all think?
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All the above, and perhaps a switchable Aux 6 as a mono out, you would be able to set the output to the mono out but it would also increase or decrease with the main L,R masters. This would be great for running subs or connecting to a second P.A.
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All the above, and perhaps a switchable Aux 6 as a mono out, you would be able to set the output to the mono out but it would also increase or decrease with the main L,R masters. This would be great for running subs or connecting to a second P.A.
If they do that I'd also want to be able to HPF the mains and LPF the aux so I could run aux driven subs without an external crossover :) .
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I'm all for that! ... While we are in the complete realms of fantasy , it would be great if some body designed a midi surface that the ipad could plug into which would make all channels accessible with real faders and mute buttons. I say this as I recently did sound at a theatre for a performance of rent. It would have been great to have used the on board functions on the dl1608 , but to scroll and mute mics on the ipad for each number and hit the mute buttons dead on each time is impossible . But with a desk with real faders and mute buttons operating the ipad which in turn operated the 1608 would be amazing...I know it defeats the object of being able to walk around the venue with pad in hand, but for a theatre show with 16 mics that need constantly muting and un-muting , for me this would be great!
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Let me just summarize what is on the Mackie DL1608 Users Suggestion page top 5 that are possible with the existing hardware. Probably should start one here for History.
1. Parametric Eq.'s or other means to deal with nasty feedback frequencies. There are duplicate requests that would be satisfied with this addition.
2. Groups (eight) linking should be OK with this. DCA's would be able to live with this.
3. UI cleanup for display of used channels and my favorite MUTE in a different place. Some info on what your into on title page.
4. Mute Mains or break switch real basic. Some variants including mine.
5. RTA or other feedback indicators or solutions. Once again with #1
These are the top requests along with other convenience and ID access on the main page.
My prediction: You'll never see this because unless there is a major change at Mackie on ownership it will die at 1.4 although I would love to be wrong on this.
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Never was on my list before, but a master fader for the auxes (or DCA to link them) would be nice. I was running five monitor mixes when some feedback slipped in. Swiping through 5 pages and pulling back faders while the feedback continued was excruciating.
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Never was on my list before, but a master fader for the auxes (or DCA to link them) would be nice. I was running five monitor mixes when some feedback slipped in. Swiping through 5 pages and pulling back faders while the feedback continued was excruciating.
What I want is a page of all the masters like the iX16 will have :) .
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That would do it...just one swipe and a five finger pull.
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I believe those are my top 5 also RR! :) :)
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That would do it...just one swipe and a five finger pull.
True, although that's a fairly blunt tool for dealing with feedback - but you raise a good point. Dealing with feedback is a bit of a weak spot on the DL. Generally you can see the swell in the input level and its usually the closest monitor to the mic but not always. It would be nice to have some integrated RTA indicators. AFAIK the only solution now is to be really aggressive on ringing out the monitors and try not to change EQ or dynamics too much during the show (although sometimes its inevitable).
Personally, I'd be happy with the user group's top 5, although I would swap #4 for Roadrunner's #4. Also, the ability to hear the solo output remotely would be handy.
Most of the features I'd like to see would require new hardware - which I hope is in the works, but not getting too much attention until Mackie smooths out some of the wrinkles in the existing DL.
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I think that five is the band aid and more like 7-9 (including RR #4 and more) would keep it competitive with it's hardware shortcomings. What frost me is their description in the Users Guide of "Think of it as today's CR1604... but digital and unplugged."The DL doesn't come close to the CR on routing flexibility and never will. Their effects are under fire so what does this leave? Walking around and looking cool with an iPad! I can buy a $25 mixer and have, that will make it look like a toy. It's PC based. I may post this under the DIY topic if someone is interested.
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I can buy a $25 mixer and have, that will make it look like a toy. It's PC based. I may post this under the DIY topic if someone is interested.
Do tell :) .
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OK! I'll need to take some Pics. Right now I'm not in a good mood doing taxes and being reminded of what my hard earned $ are supporting. Next week. The variants of this have been in use for about 6 yrs in my wives classroom. I have used it about 4 yrs in the school environment ( much tougher than MIL spec). Where else can you get a precision 12 output signal generator for that money? OK the cables cost double that!
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What frost me is their description in the Users Guide of "Think of it as today's CR1604... but digital and unplugged.
Yeah, that was a bit of a stretch, but hopefully also a goal that they believe they can reach with future upgrades.
The DL doesn't come close to the CR on routing flexibility and never will.
As long as they havent run out of DSP processing bandwidth, I dont see why they couldnt get pretty close. Obviously not as much I/O, but the better their processing is, the less I/O you need.
Their effects are under fire
I never understood the complaints about the effects. Maybe because I've been using the same pair of Quadreverbs for the past 20 years. I'm a simple man with simple needs.
so what does this leave? Walking around and looking cool with an iPad!
cmon! you gotta admit that's worth something! I dont know about you, but I'm not turning many heads on account of my good looks. Not having to scout out a good spot for the desk and roll out a snake is huge! Being able to sell off most of my outboard gear and nearly pay for this thing is almost like getting a free mixer. I'm not saying that Mackie doesnt still have quite a bit of work to do - but the glass looks a lot more than half full to me.
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First off they just don't have the physical outputs without a new incarnation of the DL. Second it's not about DSP power it's about their design approach. My $25 mixer has 9 DSP's, two FPLA's a 32bit Micro (M68000 new version) an Altera Flex and a N16550 micro for com. They have one DSP and no FPLA according to BenO. It has no switch FPLA, too complicated! Granted the MSRP was around $5200 new for this but we have to deal with today's reality. I purchased 5 for $125 including shipping, although I paid as much as $60 for one, BFD. Spend $8 for a new fan and you have a new unit. Mackies digital delay is 1500 usec but it may contain a lot of leeway. They could realistically take it to 3000 usec before anyone would notices the feared digital delay. My unit has 150 usec delay and if you throw in an additional processing cycle (something you cant do with Mackie) it adds another 150 usec delay. That's up to 15 filters including crossover filters. Twelve inputs (8 mic and 4 line) and 12 outputs thru a 32x32 matrix switch which is expandable to 8 units and gives you 96 (64 mic) x 96. I think that's more than enough for all of you. Why wait for the crippled DL3208? Check it out it's a XAP800 by Gentner/ClearOne. Polycom's Ef2280 is similar but I don't like the Power supply solution (like the DL). Software was not intended for live venues but I finding it no worse than MF overall. It's also published and controllers are available for it. No secrets! I just walk around with a Toshiba tablet (6 yr old XP). OK I sit most of the time. I bought the DL for evaluation and finding it lacking in too many places. It will be on the chopping block soon after my screwdriver gets used to unveil the mysteries. I was waiting for 1.4 before doing this just to see if they took care of basics like their screwed up meters. Did I mention individual Phantom Power ? Before you come down on me by not having 48V check you Mics, a lot can handle 24V. The preamp can handle most situations at optimum S/N with attenuation down to 0.5 dB. Inputs and outputs are via Phoenix connectors so the most expensive part of the system are the Phoenix to XLR or TSR connectors at $60 +. for 24.
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Check it out it's a XAP800 by Gentner
Interesting piece of hardware. Why are they going so cheap on ebay? The units are only a few years old. Is some conferencing related industry switching to something else and dumping these or is there some other reason that they are now obsolete?
I'm not sure I would call it a $25 mixer. I could see how a couple of these plus a decent case and XLR I/O could get you a powerful DIY mixer for 200-400 bucks, depending on how heavy duty you wanted. Throw in another 200 bucks for a PC with Wifi that you can control wirelessly with Remote Desktop and then you could give DL a run for the money if the software is any good.
So if these units and the software are all that, why did you buy the Mackie? Why not take advantage of the delay of 1.4 and lack of berringer, corner the market on used XAP800's and start building cheap turnkey wireless mixers and make a fortune on eBay. You could be the next Greg Mackie. Just dont screw up your user forum.
Seriously, I would like to see pics of your rig, it sounds cool. same goes for the DL if you tear it down.
BTW - What would be the point of putting an FPLA switch on the DL when there is only one DSP?
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BTW - What would be the point of putting an FPLA switch on the DL when there is only one DSP?
Good point - as I said on the old forum the firmware should be able to route anything to anything with this hardware :) .
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Kevin:
Why so cheap? Good question, here's my take. Corporations go belly up and their boardrooms get the furniture guys in, plush chairs and tables are premium They just don't know what to do with the electronics. Then there is no secondary market. No installer is going to install a used unit into a corporate install. Other companies just get rid of these as they upgrade to newer units. Remember these things installed run around $10,000. If there is a run on these on eBay the price will certainly go up. I have all I need. Oh and some of you audio guys will pay double for the initially less expensive PSR1212 a stripped down version of the XAP800 for sound reinforcement. Turn off the AEC and NLP and you have a PSR1212. I also have their new units the Converse series 880 and 880i but I don't like the software as much. I retired the AP800's (earlier version) just to keep the software the same and XAP800 has a signal generator built in that comes in handy. As I stated before the software was not designed for live use but it still has all the controls and you may not have to babysit it during a performance. There are also knob and slider control addons for those who really feel the need. I use them with a Bluetooth wireless serial connection. Can you spell RETIRED and having fun? I'll leave business and screwing up the forum to others. State tune for Pics next week on a Mackie schedule. The FPLA switch would have been necessary for speed if you had more DSP's . BenO gave that as the reason for just the one DSP. I already have a buyer for this unit patently waiting. Custom case and all. For all I know I may find a Xmos unit at the heart of the DL. Back to taxes.
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So, what does everyone think about the second half of yesterday's announcement from Mackie?
https://www.facebook.com/Mackie :
My Fader v1.0 and Master Fader v1.4 are completely wrapped up and awaiting App Store approval. Should have release news soon. Thanks everyone for hanging in there. I hesitate to say it, but we are already knee-deep in v1.5 stuff and you guys are going to be very excited. Finally time to hit some of the major things you have been asking for!
8)
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Sounds like the choices are made. I wonder if they have the guts to post them on their "Feature Request Forum" anytime soon? For now only the old choices are listed.
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I know that this is NOT going to happen like...ever with this mixer because of physical limitations, but I would love to see the ability to record multi-track with this mixer. Now that isn't an underhanded complaint. I ordered the mixer this week knowing full well that the mixer probably couldn't handle that function and considering I paid $825.00, brand new, for this beautiful piece of machinery, how can you go wrong?
But since this really is about a "wish list" that's about the only thing I can think of that I want to see. :)
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what does everyone think about the second half of yesterday's announcement from Mackie?
Yep, that last bit was very gratifying to see. I think that the expected useful lifetime of my DL just got longer! I wouldnt be surprised if it was also meant as a shot across berringer's bow.
I really hope that 1.5 comes with a nice RTA/FFT function, and/or the ability to use the solo remotely. For me, thats the weak spot in my setup right now. Speaking of which, does anyone even use the solos currently? I dont see the point if the only way you can get to the solo bus is with headphones. You cant use headphones on stage. Sure a lot of other boards do it this way. They also are located far from the stage. Maybe I am just thick and missing something, but I'm hoping that Mackie has some better future plans for the solo bus.
PEQs on outputs would be nice, but I would probably be the only one at gigs who notices. Separate EQs for L/R would be more useful for me (eg when the only place to put one side of the main stack is close to a wall). Having a CD horn curve for the mains would be nice. I hardly ever change this, but when I do its a PIA to set in the crossover.
Lack of subgroups was a PIA. I have mostly gotten used to it but it would be nice to have them again. I have no use for stereo IEMs, but can see how they would be nice for reducing stage volume. Only showing the used channels would be nice, although I've gotten used to starting with the high channels and working my way down (since I always have a few line inputs)
RR - why is the effects mute your #1? I must have missed whatever old thread that was in. Handy yes, but #1?
I do miss all of those threads on the old forum where users were arguing about what features Mackie should add next. Yeah there were quite a few flame wars, but also a lot of useful DL operating tips for a former lurker like myself to pick up.
Sounds like the choices are made. I wonder if they have the guts to post them on their "Feature Request Forum" anytime soon?
I hope so, because if they are not going to add RTA functionality, I'm going to need to drop some money on some 3rd party HW and SW and I'd really like to know sooner rather than later.
I know that this is NOT going to happen like...ever with this mixer because of physical limitations, but I would love to see the ability to record multi-track with this mixer
Well, you kinda/sorta can now - just not using the DL/iPad. You do after all have 8 outputs on the DL
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Speaking of which, does anyone even use the solos currently? I dont see the point if the only way you can get to the solo bus is with headphones. You cant use headphones on stage.
You can side-stage, I do it all the time. You have to use high isolation headphones though, I use "Direct Sound EX-25".RR - why is the effects mute your #1? I must have missed whatever old thread that was in. Handy yes, but #1?
IMO the #1 thing that separates a pro soundguy from a hack is the pro mutes the FX between songs when the talent is talking to the audience.[...] if they are not going to add RTA functionality, I'm going to need to drop some money on some 3rd party HW and SW and I'd really like to know sooner rather than later.
I didn't see any love for that from Mackie so I'd guess it's not going to happen in the near term :( .
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IMO the #1 thing that separates a pro soundguy from a hack is the pro mutes the FX between songs when the talent is talking to the audience.
OK, I freely admit to being a hack, but even taking that into consideration, I still dont get this. The thickest processing I put on vocals is with a reggae band, and that would just sound weird if I killed all the FX while the singer was talking. Maybe if I was running a really long thick delay from the last song that made normal speech completely garbled, I might change or kill the delay, but I usually do that after a song ends anyway (IF I am using delay, and being a hack, I usually dont, unless the band really wants/needs it). Usually, I just find a subtle reverb, like a plate or room, that the singer likes and leave it set all night. I guess I can imagine that there are some more extreme vocal effects that might work on a particular song but not for hawking CDs, but in that case wouldnt you still just switch to a less extreme FX so that the singer doesnt completely drop out of character? What is an example of a vocal situation where I should reconsider my hackish ways?
I didn't see any love for that [RTA] from Mackie so I'd guess it's not going to happen in the near term
Other than saying that 1.4 is ready and 1.5 in progress, I havent seen much love from Mackie period. What is this Mackie love that you speak of?
I do wish Mackie would go through the "UserVoice" list and mark them as "Planning to implement", "Under consideration", "Not planned at this time", or "Not possible with the present hardware
That is a really excellent idea, and one that would probably get Mackie some more sales in the short term, particularly if they can commit to some sort of roadmap. I can certainly see a potential DL1608 buyer thinking "I really want subgroups, but could live without them until June (or whenever), so maybe its time pull the trigger now" or "it looks like I will probably be able to sell all my rackmount PEQs in a few months, so cost of moving to the DL just dropped a few hundred bucks" If you have any pull with the folks at Mackie (which you damn well should, after setting up this forum) please put that bug in their ear.
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All's I can say is sound professionals are going to notice that you aren't killing even a subtle 'verb when the band is just talking to the audience - and are going to notice that you are. Whether you care or not is up to you ;) .
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All's I can say is sound professionals are going to notice that you aren't killing even a subtle 'verb when the band is just talking to the audience
Ha! Busted! Yeah, I dont think I've ever noticed that. I'll have to start paying a bit more attention when I am out and about to see if I (a) can notice and (b) like the difference enough to change my hackish ways. I suppose I could see doing this in some sort of intimate singer songwriter situation, where dropping the reverb while the performer is telling a story would make the spoken voice seem more personal.
but I think we'll see my other 4 top five in V1.5
Any elaboration on this? Obviously, it would just be speculation, but given that you pretty much called the Friday release of 1.4, I'd be interested in whatever speculation you've got on 1.5 - eg do you think we are we likely to see usable sub-groups or just stereo linking of inputs? Any other stuff besides your 2-5 list that we might be likely to see (barring complications)?
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but I think we'll see my other 4 top five in V1.5
Any elaboration on this? Obviously, it would just be speculation, but given that you pretty much called the Friday release of 1.4, I'd be interested in whatever speculation you've got on 1.5 - eg do you think we are we likely to see usable sub-groups or just stereo linking of inputs? Any other stuff besides your 2-5 list that we might be likely to see (barring complications)?
They actually said something about "by Easter" on FaceBook and I couldn't imagine they wanted to be over one month late (they had announced V1.4 being available by the end of February) - no superpowers involved :) . I remember them saying something about stereo linking and pre-comp auxes being in the works but zero about subgroups so again no superpowers involved ;) .
Myself, I see little value in subgroups on a 16 channel mixer except as a means to work around other issues that they should "fix" anyways.
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Personally, when I am speaking to the audience, I don't want any fx on my voice. I use a Boss VE-20 though and all I have to do is step on the button. The verb and delay in the DL (in my case) are only used for drums and backing vocals who don't have an external processor.
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Myself, I see little value in subgroups on a 16 channel mixer except as a means to work around other issues that they should "fix" anyways.
Any time when the room is big enough to make mic'ing all the drums worthwhile, its nice to have a subgroup for the drums (although yeah, the level on that sub hardly ever changes unless there are stage volume issues). Sometimes for a horn section, sometimes BG vocals. Necessary? No. Keeps perspective buyers in their comfort zone? Yep.
The verb and delay in the DL (in my case) are only used for drums and backing vocals who don't have an external processor.
Speaking of which, a 2nd FX path would be nice. I sometimes like a gated reverb on the snare if the room is big enough for it to be noticeable.
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What do you all think about an option to send the solo bus to the 30pin ipad connector? Then if the iPad is docked or on a cable, you could swipe from MF to any 3rd party FFT/RTA and see all your input channels and auxes, swipe back to EQ. Not as good as integrated FFT/RTA but better than nothing and seems to me like it should be easy to implement in the short term. As long as its an option to send the solo bus to 30pin out or not, that would probably work OK for everyone for now, no?
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Not a bad idea. But an RTA overlaid on the GEQ's would really make my day :) . Just having the slider knobs light up showing the feedback frequencies like the Peavey and Behringer GEQs do would be great :) .
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+1 :thu:
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But an RTA overlaid on the GEQ's would really make my day :) . Just having the slider knobs light up showing the feedback frequencies like the Peavey and Behringer GEQs do would be great :)
Yep, that would be nice too, although I dont think it would be much extra work to take this a step further and pull up a FFT window, either from the solo bus or from each channel or output when you are in the EQ window.
None of these integrated RTA/FFT ideas would conceptually difficult to design, but would be non-trivial to implement, as in any of these cases, there would need to be a small bit of new DSP processing, additions to the communication protocol between DL and MF, new iPad display graphics and possibly the need to coordinate with multiple iPads. If Mackie could pull this off by the next release, that would be outstanding. OTOH, if its not already on the to-do list, then it might be a stretch to get it into 1.5. As an interim step, just sending the solo bus to the 32 pin should only take one universal configuration setting and a small bit of code in the DSP to route the solo bus instead of LR bus to the 32 pin. No DL/MF communication changes, iPad graphics, or coordination between multiple iPads needed. It should be possible to add something like this to 1.5, even if its not already in the works.
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Yah know - I'm guessing that the feature set for V1.5 is already set so V1.6 or later is what we're looking at. I'm just hoping that the 4+ months between V1.3 and V1.4 isn't going to become the norm :-\ .
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Hey RR & Kevin!
You guys are programmers aren't you? Is there any way the DL/MF can be hacked and modified code inserted?
Would it even be possible for completely new 3rd party software to be written and published legitimately?
I own a small video production company and a few years back the Canon range of DSLRs were hacked by a project called "Magic Lantern". This gave some requested features that the users wanted when shooting video.
I'd be willing to donate to a pool for someone to buy and investigate the innards of a DL, and or MF.
That's the way the Magic Lantern project started. Eventually Canon added most of the hacked features.
If Mackie were open to it and 3rd party software was an improvement, they'd probably sell more DLs?
I'd be happy to pay £50 and download an alternative app (if it was better) from the AppStore.
Every time I buy a new app it adds to the love and useability of my iPhone & iPads.
I'm happy to wait for Mackie to update MF but it would be nice to have an alternative!
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^ That's pretty interesting - and anything is possible ;) . But I certainly don't have the time and inclination. It would be a HUGE undertaking :o .
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Any unemployed programmers out there up to the challenge ???
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Any unemployed programmers out there up to the challenge
It seems that a big reason that the Magic Lantern project was successful was that by hacking the Canon 5D, it was possible to turn a ~2000 DSLR camera into something comparable to a ~25K pro video camera. That's a pretty huge payoff, which is going to attract attention and funds from all sorts of people - independent film makers, pro videographers, etc.
I'm not sure how you'd get a similar payoff out of hacking the DL. You'd have to come up with a killer feature that is only available in much more expensive pro audio mixers. Even if you were able to implement everything on the Mackie's user feature request list, you'd still just basically have a smaller form factor PreSonus - which would be great for all of us, but I dont see the pro audio industry getting too excited about it. Maybe there is some killer feature that isnt on the list that would be worth the effort, but I cant see it. For hacking, you'd probably be better off starting out with a couple of XAP800's where you have more I/O and a documented communication protocol. Then you'd just need to focus on doing a nice user interface.
Now if you DID want to hack the DL, the best place to start would be to crack the communication protocol, which you could probably do with a network protocol analyzer like Wireshark and an ethernet hub between the router and DL. This would require a working knowledge of TCP/IP and a lot of tedious work to figure out all of the various command and status message parameters. Not much payoff for an individual that I can see, although if you were a company that builds midi control interfaces, you could probably figure out enough to build a wireless physical fader interace like AbbaAgain wants and maybe sell enough to the theater industry to make the effort worthwhile. You could also write a new IOS app that would substitute for Master Fader, although those would just be cosmetic changes - ie better button locations, maybe an "all outputs" screen, etc. You might even be able to come up with some sort of vitual fader linking. To get features like output PEQs, submix busses, assigning the Aux'es pre/post compression, etc, you need to change the DSP code. Getting into the DSP code would take some real heavy lifting. If WK154 gets around to tearing down his DL unit, then maybe we'll find out what type of DSP and whether Mackie left a JTAG port on the PCB (my guess is no JTAG header for cost reasons, but the traces are probably there to add one).
Bottom line - yes, the DL is probably hackable, but for the effort to payoff ratio, an unemployed programmer would be better off showing up on Mackie's doorstep and volunteer to help with in-house testing of the 1.5 release. If Mackie refuses, stand at the nearest busy intersection with a sign that says "will work for Master Fader v1.5 release" until they relent. Then, when 1.5 releases, said programmer would have (a) a nicer mixer and (b) minor fame among 1000s of DL users, as the person who quit his/her day job to get 1.5 released on time. Said programmer could then spend the next month or two getting free beers in dive bars all over the world before everyone starts complaining about need for 1.6.
PS - now that I can do an FFT of my Aux outputs, I take back what I said about PEQs not being all that useful to me. Now I want PEQs on the outputs. I'd probably take that over grouping now - but what I still want the most is an integrated RTA.
PPS - a more useful hack (for me) would be an IOS hack so that I could forcibly assign 3rd party audio inputs and outputs where I want them, instead of having IOS trying to do it for me.
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Lol. I didn't think it would be easy, but that's a daunting list Kevin! That was informative, thank you for taking the time to post that.
I remember back on the old board someone mentioned fx plug ins and how they'd be happy to pay for them. Well, me too! Plug-ins or extra features, if they were useful and not a rip off, I'd go for it. Downside, I suppose, no free firmware updates from Mackie once they caught on....?
I suppose we might as well keep throwing suggestions at "user voice" in the off chance.
Is there even a link to user voice from the Mackie site anymore, if there is, it isn't very obvious?
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Is there even a link to user voice from the Mackie site anymore, if there is, it isn't very obvious?
Here it's carefully hidden in a Sticky:
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=232.0
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Good job you kept the link RR :thu: ;)
I wonder do they know they have no link?
Maybe they reckon all possible suggestions have been submitted....
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It's actually on this page of their's:
http://www.mackie.com/products/dlseries/specs/
:)
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Ahh, conspiracy over...
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I remember back on the old board someone mentioned fx plug ins and how they'd be happy to pay for them.
If Mackie made the DL's 32 pin interface assignable to any output bus, then in addition to assigning solo out, you could also assign one or two Aux's to the 32 pin out, run the Aux signal through an effect app on the iPad and bring it back to the DL through the 32 pin iPad input. That would give you up to 2 more FX chains or 1 more FX chain plus solo - as long as your iPad is docked or on a cable. Or you dock your iPhone to get the 2 FX chains and mix wirelessly on the DL. If you want to keep the 32 pin outputs for recording, now you'd have the option to send a pair of Aux's to 32 pin instead of being forced to use L/R.
I dont think it would be very hard to make the two 32 pin out channels assignable in 1.5. That would open up a lot of 3rd party possibilities on IOS devices. Mackie can then market the DL as having expandable I/O and FX without any hardware changes or doing any heavy lifting in the DSP code.
Another application that might make cracking the DL/iPad comm protocol worthwhile, is a midi to wireless DL protocol converter box that could be configured to work with any midi control surface. This could be done initially with off the shelf parts and you could allow users to map whatever off-the-shelf midi control surface they want to DL fader and button moves. That could spin off a whole cottage industry for custom installation using the 1608 or 806 as a cheap wireless head end, with many options for inexpensive midi control surfaces as the primary client/operator interface.
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someone's probably brought this up before, but does anyone have a use for the fader decibel readout display that is always at the top middle of the Master Fader App? I get what it is for, but it seems that it is taking up a lot of valuable real estate. How often do you really need to know the decibel level to 0.1 dB, as opposed to eyeballing it to 0.5 or 1 db with the faders? Also the text to either side that identifies the input channel and output. These labels are already much more visible at the bottom of the display. These three status indicators are right at the top of the display, which is prime real estate, but I never need to look at them.
It seems to me that if Mackie was looking for a place to add some new control buttons, it could be right where these low information items are currently located.
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+1 to that
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Yesterday I´ve been to PL&S in Frankfurt.
I talked to a colleague of BenO who´s been there too.
He only "confirmed" for 1.5:
- stereo pairing
- Clean UI (no show for unused channels)
Maybe he wasn´t allowed to say more but maybe that´s it.
iPhone-version still tested by apple.
Best regards from Germany
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Yesterday I´ve been to PL&S in Frankfurt. I talked to a colleague of BenO who´s been there too. He only "confirmed" for 1.5:
- stereo pairing
- Clean UI (no show for unused channels)
I hope they do stereo pairing on both inputs and outputs. The hiding unused channels thing I'm not keen on unless they also let you rearrange the channels - that would be of more use to me!
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And I really hope that you can freeze most important channels e.g. FX-channels & main voc so that they are visible all the time.
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I want,
-prefade nodsp auxes.
-2 verbs if want.
-an automixer function (think yamaha dugan http://www.yamahacommercialaudiosystems.com/product_detail.php?prodID=1128)
-stereo linking
-record function for every channel.
-internal crossover.
I don't expect to get all of these but the auxes definitely need to be fixed!
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I you all.
This is my first post, but have been reading the fórum for some months (before the release of the Dl abençoado still was Mackie Fórum).
For me the essencial features missing are:
- Linking channels and aux's
- Some kind of groups and/or dca's (so we can have control of everything in one 8 faders page, and in the case of subgroups,we would have the post dsp aux sends solved)
- Choice to use two reverbs
It would be great of we also could have:
- Delay on all outputs (don't know the memory capacity of the Dl for this)
- Select the two outputs that send audio to de ipad when docked (This would open lots of new possibilities like, use external fx from ipad, diferent mix for record, use of fft transfer function aplications, etc...)
- The crossover idea would be great
- Aux sends pre post dsp selectable (I hardly ever abuse to much of compression, so not a big deal for me. But looks a big issue for lots of people)
- At least, play and pause controls for ipad music
- It would be perfect if the dl could send and recive audio through wifi
- The rta on the gráphic eq's would also be good
And finaly
- Better reverbs (they are workable but not that great)
All this would be perfec, but at least the first 3 or 4 are essencial.
Forgot two more things, one of trem very important:
- One masters page (extreamly important)
- it would be great to have a page with the 16 channel faders
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Just back from a great little gig but needed to get this off my chest before I hit my bed.
Probably mentioned before several times:
Please, please have different coloured backgrounds for the different fader screens.
Main: black
A1: red
A2: yellow etc, etc
I've done it countless times where I've left the desk, come back and a change of faders has no effect.
Make it obvious (colour behind or around the faders, or surround or whatever) which page you are on.
Not two poxy digits above the master fader.
Pretty please Mackie :(
Rant over.
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Just back from a great little gig but needed to get this off my chest before I hit my bed.
Probably mentioned before several times:
Please, please have different coloured backgrounds for the different fader screens.
Main: black
A1: red
A2: yellow etc, etc
I've done it countless times where I've left the desk, come back and a change of faders has no effect.
Make it obvious (colour behind or around the faders, or surround or whatever) which page you are on.
Not two poxy digits above the master fader.
Pretty please Mackie :(
Rant over.
+1
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Updates become a little addictive, I was glad to see v1.4 for the few things it added. Now that I'm using the DL a little more often, the many suggested additions to Master Fader become more and more desirable. If they were "knees deep" in v1.5 when the bugs in v1.4 were being sorted out, could we dare hope for v1.5 anytime soon?
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So after using the DL twice 2 things I'd like to see, and I don't think have been mentioned, are:
1 - larger output selectors (the vertical strip to the right of the master fader).
2 - Partial name of the auxes in that same list. Like use the first 3 characters that you named the aux. Currently it's just trial and error as you don't see the label until you've made your selection... OK that's not it, I'll try another. I have a hard enough time remembering the 5 auxes of my own band I mix every week. If you're doing multiple bands I could see it being a real PITA.
Oh, and a bonus one..... I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give me output metering at the channel level! This is critical for mixing from stage where your eyes are your ears. I'd bet 1/2 the people using this thing are in that category.
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1 - larger output selectors (the vertical strip to the right of the master fader).
If you "touch and hold" on that strip it gets bigger, then you can slide to the one you want and release. I didn't know that until someone told me myself.
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I'd like my snapshots and presets to show up in the Master Fader folder in iTunes, same as the recordings do. I see no way to transfer settings from one iPad to another. I envision my iPad 1 spending the rest of its life docked while my iPad Mini or whatever roams. Either one will be my master controller, and both should have all my saves.
Here's where to vote for that one. It's sort of been suggested on uservoice several times, but has nil for votes.
https://mackie.uservoice.com/forums/97035-dl1608/suggestions/3601974-save-and-import-export-snapshots-presets-etc-#comments
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I see no way to transfer settings from one iPad to another. I envision my iPad 1 spending the rest of its life docked while my iPad Mini or whatever roams. Either one will be my master controller, and both should have all my saves.
With the latest firmware that happens automagically :) .
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I'm running Master Fader 1.4.1. My iPad 1 updated the board firmware on first connect. I'm not seeing my EQ or reverb presets on the iPad Mini. It syncs the current status of the board, but that's it. Do you see something else?
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User presets only exist in the iPad where you saved them :( . The present show and the snapshots it contains are sync'd between all iDevices connected to the DL1608, wired or wireless :) .
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User presets only exist in the iPad where you saved them :( .
Hence my feature request. If you have to fresh start an iPad, they're gone.
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Hi, I'm new here. My "want" is simple, but probably impossible. I'd like to be able to record on my iPad off one or more of the monitor sends rather than off the mains, so I can control the recording mix better. My band mates prefer to use their own amps on guitar, bass and keys, running only the acoustic, drums and vocals through the mains to the PA, so obviously, recording a show like that blows. Thank you and thank you for making this forum available since Mackie bagged their own forum.
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Hi, I'm new here. My "want" is simple, but probably impossible. I'd like to be able to record on my iPad off one or more of the monitor sends rather than off the mains, so I can control the recording mix better. My band mates prefer to use their own amps on guitar, bass and keys, running only the acoustic, drums and vocals through the mains to the PA, so obviously, recording a show like that blows. Thank you and thank you for making this forum available since Mackie bagged their own forum.
Once they implement stereo auxes it will be simple to just use a stereo aux for the PA and use the main L&R just for recording :) . I suspect it wouldn't be too hard for Mackie to switch the iPad recording to a pair of auxes too, quite a few folks have expressed a desire for that :).
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]Once they implement stereo auxes it will be simple to just use a stereo aux for the PA and use the main L&R just for recording :) . I suspect it wouldn't be too hard for Mackie to switch the iPad recording to a pair of auxes too, quite a few folks have expressed a desire for that :).
Great, thank you for the reply. I usually record our gigs with a Zoom Q3HD (and usually with really good results), but over the weekend, I discovered that I had left the memory card in my PC and couldn't record with the Zoom and recording an incomplete, lousy mix off the iPad was my only other option (which I did not exercise).
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The alternative (well documented in the forums) is to run FOH in mono from an aux and use the mains for the recording. You'll need to mic the guitar amps and keys just for the recording (but then you can sneak a bit into the FOH without them noticing, even if you don't make them louder having a bit of guitar/bass/keys in the mix really helps to glue the sound together :-). BTW for recording the drums send only kick and overhead to tape, it works great and really simplifies the mixing task.
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The alternative (well documented in the forums) is to run FOH in mono from an aux and use the mains for the recording. You'll need to mic the guitar amps and keys just for the recording (but then you can sneak a bit into the FOH without them noticing, even if you don't make them louder having a bit of guitar/bass/keys in the mix really helps to glue the sound together :-). BTW for recording the drums send only kick and overhead to tape, it works great and really simplifies the mixing task.
Thanks for the tips. Much appreciated. It's funny, but how you mention it is exactly how we do it now. Vocals, kick and overhead (when needed), and a little guitar and keys are usually sent to FOH. We had a gig without our regular bass player this past weekend, who usually brings all the PA gear, so I had to substitute my little rinky dink PA and speakers for a smaller outdoor venue and was afraid to tax them too heavily. The sound actually came out fantastic. I can't wait to futz around with this stuff at our next gig and come out with a really nice live recording mix. I'm stoked and having one of those "shoulda had a V8" moments, because I really should have figured this one out on my own. LOL. Cheers.
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Another show with the DL ... man, I sure hope they add stereo input and aux linking in the next release ... for every show I do this is a real pain in the butt >:( ... at least with a hard control surface you can tape adjoining faders together ... can't do anything on an iScreen ... :|
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The iPad does let you move up to four faders at once, no big deal to move a pair. But I also really need linking. Damned keyboard players want stereo monitor mixes of there stereo keyboards - imagine that :facepalm:.
So, any beta testers wanna give us at least a winky face if they're testing linking now? LOL
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The iPad does let you move up to four faders at once, no big deal to move a pair.
Not easy when you are holding the iPad with your hands to the side and using either thumb for quick changes.
And try moving two aux masters in unison ...
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The iPad does let you move up to four faders at once, no big deal to move a pair.
Not easy when you are holding the iPad with your hands to the side and using either thumb for quick changes.
And try moving two aux masters in unison ...
Master Fader lets you move as many faders as you have on the screen (as long as you have enough fingers) ::)
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Master Fader lets you move as many faders as you have on the screen (as long as you have enough fingers) ::)
Actually the limit is three unless you disable "Multitasking Gestures" in General Settings. Mackie recommends that you do that, I've chosen not to (I forget why).
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The iPad does let you move up to four faders at once, no big deal to move a pair.
Not easy when you are holding the iPad with your hands to the side and using either thumb for quick changes.
And try moving two aux masters in unison ...
Master Fader lets you move as many faders as you have on the screen (as long as you have enough fingers) ::)
Yes, I know that. The point of stereo linking (among other things) is to eliminate the need to move two independent faders in unison when they always operate in unison. I don't know about you, but none of my fingers are the same length. So in order to grab a pair of faders and move them together with any accuracy I have to position my hand at a weird angle on the iPad. Which messes up my general handling of the iPad.
I didn't say it couldn't be done ... I said it's a pain in the butt ...
And, for stereo auxes, it can't be done -- you have to switch screens. Therefore the restriction to mono FOH when you are doing stereo recording on a separate mix.
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Break button....Just sayin'.
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Monitor feedback...which one? I'll just page through all six auxes while the guilty monitor screams. A Master Page...I'm just sayin'.
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And by the way, if Mackie can give us an 8 channel DL for a couple of hundred dollars less than the 1608, can they give me a 24 channel DL for a couple of hundred bucks more?
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WANT --> Open Source the Master Fader code - we'll add tremendous value and sales to the DL
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Another show with the DL ... man, I sure hope they add stereo input and aux linking in the next release ... for every show I do this is a real pain in the butt >:( ... at least with a hard control surface you can tape adjoining faders together ... can't do anything on an iScreen ... :|
I've been told by Mackie that two of the top features in the next release (1.5) will be channel linking and iPad input gain control. I don't know what else they will have in store.
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Hi, I'm new here. My "want" is simple, but probably impossible. I'd like to be able to record on my iPad off one or more of the monitor sends rather than off the mains, so I can control the recording mix better. My band mates prefer to use their own amps on guitar, bass and keys, running only the acoustic, drums and vocals through the mains to the PA, so obviously, recording a show like that blows. Thank you and thank you for making this forum available since Mackie bagged their own forum.
Once they implement stereo auxes it will be simple to just use a stereo aux for the PA and use the main L&R just for recording :) . I suspect it wouldn't be too hard for Mackie to switch the iPad recording to a pair of auxes too, quite a few folks have expressed a desire for that :).
My work around on this issue is to mic up the amps (which I do for our guitarist and bassist). I would run them straight into the board but they say they don't get the same tonality (characteristic) they would from their amps. If you don't need all your aux sends for monitors, then run them into an audio interface like a Focusrite Sapphire and use an iPad app like Auria to record. Jeff, I too can't use LR even mic'ing up their amps because they tend to turn up their amps causing the stage to be already too hot. Even without recording, this can be an issue. This is the age old issue with controlling the stage volume so it doesn't overpower the house mix. Multi-track will not be a feature in the DL1608 (hardware prohibited). This has been confirmed by the Mackie PM (Ben) when I saw him at the NAMM show. I was looking at the Behringer iX16 which will support multitrack through your favorite DAW but that means you will have to lug around a laptop with your DAW software loaded. I used my solution above to record a show back in April consisting of a pianist, bassist, vocalist and room mic for ambient room recording. Worked out pretty well. I did take back the Sapphire because I don't like the way they do their hardware interfacing (i.e. would rather have all combo XLR's versus SPIDIF, RCA, ADAT, etc as my inputs).
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The simplest way (and well documented on the forums) is to run FOH from one aux in mono (much debated here also) and record from the L/R onto the iPad. 8)
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September?
http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Live-Sound-Production/Strange-Problem-With-DL1608-I-think/m-p/35599895#M408117
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Phew!! The amount of stuff I had to read to get to the point of your post. That's an hour I'll never get back RR :D
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I'm still wading through it :eek:
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I'm still wading through it :eek:
I'll save you the bother - someone muted that Master Fader v1.5 was being released in September :o
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On my browser the link goes directly to that post ...
My question would be ... Why so long for the release? Didn't Beno say that 1.4 was a big refactoring release, laying the groundwork to implement all those features we have been waiting for patiently since 1.3?
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Weird, that link I posted should jump right to the relevant post - it does on both Internet Explorer and Chrome here?
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My question would be ... Why so long for the release? Didn't Beno say that 1.4 was a big refactoring release, laying the groundwork to implement all those features we have been waiting for patiently since 1.3?
Hopefully the delay is because there are going to be a boatload of changes. Pre-EQ and dynamics auxes, stereo linked inputs and outputs, master FX mute, bigger or repositioned mutes, an "all outputs" page, iPad record and playback level controls, more FX (chorus?). Who knows how much they can cram into V1.5 :) ? Hopefully they can be somewhat competitive with the Behringer iX16 when it comes out soon :( .
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Weird, that link I posted should jump right to the relevant post - it does on both Internet Explorer and Chrome here?
I was in bed with my (w)iphone ;)
Like the bit about the ix16 out soon :lol:
Reaching for the tin hat again........
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I helped a friend out at the weekend at a charity music festival and got the chance to use the software for the Yamaha LS9/32 on the iPad. My friend had front of house and I was doing the monitor mixes on the stage. It was interesting to see how they present information to the user and how you access channels and various other features. Now, obviously the LS9 is a much more feature rich mixer, so to be able to access things requires a bit more than scrolling side to side (which incidentally it doesn't do :-) ). So a few more buttons to press to get to the desired channel and output, but there were some good things about this, like:
- Output masters page,
- Little overviews at the top for the various groups of inputs and outputs which showed level and fader positions,
- Long faders option, for better fine control
- Parametric or graphic EQ on outputs
- Linked faders (though I didn't see how you set those on the iPad, they were done from the desk)
Its also interesting to note that in a similar way to MasterFader, I also had some issues with latency and drop out at times. It was hard to pin down what was causing it, as there was no clear pattern of position or number of people between me and the router.
Overall, there majority of what I found was what has been requested in MasterFader 1.5 and whilst I enjoyed the differences, it didn't make me think that the Mackie interface was significantly worse or better, just that it has some room for improvement which would make life easier on occassion.
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LS9 is my main mixer, and I've used their app, StageMix, from the minute it came out. The dropouts are part app, part OS. There are specific settings on the iPad wifi page that help, and they're different depending on which version of iOS you're running.
There are many things that Mackie does better than Yamaha. The Yamaha mixers won't support multiple control devices, it's strictly 1 iPad at a time, and that's a mixer architecture thing. The channel scrolling that you mentioned. Automatic resync after backgrounding. Control of dynamics and effects processors.
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"Computerization" is relatively new in this industry, so in a sense it levels the playing field amongst vendors. Digital boards are really no exception since they require a totally different kind of programming than PC or Mac apps. At this point I think vendor success will heavily depend on who they hire to design and write the code
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Nottooloud, I think that my friend was running the latest version of iOS (6.11?) so any tips would be grately appreciated. I believe in the next revision of StageMix you'll be able to access dynamics and effects.
The ability to use more than one iPad / iDevice is something i haven't exploited that much, but I can see it being very useful, even if it is just so I can be greedy and have two iPads on the go at the same time. :lol:
I hadn't thought of the auto-resynch, but yes great point.
Jkowtko, I suspect you are right and, whilst I will probably be flamed for saying it, I would rather that Mackie too the time to release a stable product than just firing out an update without thoroughly testing it. That is one thing I have generally been impressed with MasterFader, it very rarely crashes or hangs.
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Nottooloud, I think that my friend was running the latest version of iOS (6.11?) so any tips would be grately appreciated.
There's lots of voodoo to try; forgetting and resetting the router, broadcasting the SSID or not, various models of routers. Connection may be improved by picking a static ip address. Yamaha mixers all use one, and it defaults to 192.168.0.128, so don't use that. The original iPad is stuck at iOS 5.1.1. On those you need to specify the router address. On iOS 6.nn (currently 6.1.3), you also need to specify the DNS, which is usually the same as the router address.
Once you get a stable setup, you should be able to forget about it. At the moment, I have an old Buffalo WHR-HP-G300N and a last gen Airport Extreme, and they're both solid. I had been using an old Airport Express, the one with a single ethernet port, but it doesn't play nice with my iPad Mini.
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Thanks, I'll give those a go.
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I had a look at UserVoice today and notice there are a couple of references to MIDI control of Master Fader. I suspect it may not be possible (and if it is it definitely won't be easy to implement) but what do you programmer dudes think? It would be great to be able to have an iPad and a Berry BCF2000 fader pack for FOH (wireless of course) best of both worlds, physical faders and touch screen. What set me looking is the boss has just bought a couple of BCF2000 to run the A&H iLive (with a PC for monitors and the T80 for FOH). I won't be selling the DL just yet either way but I'll bet the iX16 can do it :-X
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Since the DL itself doesn't support MIDI, I would think you'll need an app (iDevice or PC) that can talk both MIDI and DL. If by chance the DL's protocol uses MIDI under the covers that might make it an easier programming effort ... but ultimately you would still need access to the DL's API -- or build your own equivalent -- to hook up this program to.
In general I think the future of digital consoles should be rack mounted I/O and DSP, with modular hard and soft control surfaces including sound consoles and personal monitor mixers. MIDI would make sense as the protocol of choice for backward compatibility, but ideally something that runs well under wired or wireless ethernet.
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I'm thinking of the Master Fader app, I realise the DL can't be controlled by midi but if the Master Fader app could interact with a midi control protocol you could use a hardware midi control surface (like, say, Garage Band on the iPad can receive midi data over USB from a keyboard) to control the MF app and let all coms be between MF and the DL. I doubt Mackie will do it as they don't make a budget midi control surface but it could be a winner if it's possible.
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I'd be willing to donate to a pool for someone to buy and investigate the innards of a DL, and or MF.
Funny, I was thinking of somthing along same lines myself. We should see how many of us are interested in investing in somthing and go from there.
I am down to throw in!
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As of 7/17/13 the top request from the Mackie site is as follows:
Channel Linking / Grouping and Make a Stereo channel
Please add the ability to link channels together. Stereo pairs are critical, but offering true multi-channel grouping would be amazing
1,550 votes
Combine two mono channels into a stereo pair so they appear on one fader like the current iPad channel.
401 votes The two top requests by far the most wanted with 1,951 requests
Parametric EQ options on all outputs
I would like to be able to select this option. It makes it real easy to filter out monitor mix feedback. And set a nice sounding eq
1,374 votes
Remove unused channels.
Get rid of all the clutter when not using all 16 faders. If I'm using 5 channels that's all I want to see.
939 votes
RTA overlayed on of the GEQ and Small simple spectrum analysis over 31-band graphic EQ's
For each of the GEQ's can you overlay a RTA on top of the GEQ display ? That way you can see which frequency band is causing feedback issues.
367 votes + 254 votes for a total of 621 votes
Add Break Switch
Many Mackie mixer's have a Break Switch making it easy to mute the mains and returns in between sets. In Master Fader, the break switch could mute all inputs and returns leaving only the iPad channel or a pair of user selectable input channels.
594 votes
Intergrate iPad music playback controls
At the top have a play, pause, next, prev, ff, rr button. When playing music with an iPad either docked, or streaming through express, it would be nice to have the controls available. This way we wouldn't have to double click or exit program to get to the controls. It would be super helpful especially when it comes to play and pause.
503 votes
Pre Fader Options
Please consider a pre/post DSP option for the pre send (i.e. pre/post compression, gate, eq).
It is much easier to get greater gain before feedback in monitors when the aux send taps the signal before the compression and gate. This is a very practical real world application.
315 votes
Delay on outputs
To drive separate delay stacks without the need of external delay's
297 votes
Stereo Aux buss
For IEM's etc.
289 votes
MONO OUT for a single (1) sub with (2) stereo tops. Aux 6? Not same as crossover idea. Just MONO.
I often use my system with just one subwoofer and two tops running in stereo. I probably do this more than I use two subs. The presonus board I already sold for the mackie had 3 main outs, 2 for left/right and a mono out that I used for my sub. They both actually have their own gain control. Can we use aux 6 to mirror all main signals and use the channel fader as a type of gain? And then if I raise or lower the main volume the aux channel 6 moves relative to the main signal, but…
249 votes
16 channel recording and playback.. and ANDROID were among the top requests but deleted for obvious reasons.
How many of these will we see in V1.5? Taking bets now!
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If they added these options I'd never need to update again. For me it's all about function, so prefader auxes is a must. Rta overlay, parametrics on outputs, delay, and built in x over and I'm in heaven!
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Hi thougd that the separation of the main geq from stereo in l+r geq or did they delete this one to?
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The above 10 most wanted list is only a general gist of the features. The implementation will no doubt be different. If they provide one or two consider yourself lucky.
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The problem with UserVoice now is that any new ideas will start at the bottom (obviously), it didn't matter when there ere only a dozen or so ideas but with hundreds nobody will ever see the new ones. :(
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I think BenO (or whoever the current DL product manager is) should be well aware of the multitude of high demand and high visibility features on our lists.
One interesting part about all this is, with a DSP at the core, the same piece of hardware can be made to have either very low end or very high end feature set. I would like to think that Mackie wants to max out the set of features that are capable on the DL box, and trust that we will move to higher end and more expensive hardware when we need the channel capacity and/or other I/O that the current DL hardware lacks. Of course, if they don't do this, their competitors will ... !
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For me it's all about function, so prefader auxes is a must.
The current features do allow pre fader aux but they are always post Ch eq and post dynamics which is a big PITA for most anyone trying to aux feed stage monitors AND still be able to make eq adjustments to any stage mics post sound check. Almost a great mixer but this is a majorly needed improvement/fix as far as im concerned.
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Features like an RTA overlay or even a simple feedback freq Id assistant would probably make for some nice appeal to the inexperienced or less experienced users more so than to me but seems like it would be a simple and effective tool to add to the current UI
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Hello!
If the company is having difficulty in removing the key problems, there will be a sensation - to withdraw the product all over the world for the assistance!
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Yea that's what I meant to say prefade eq dynamics, if I can get this I wouldn't need any other feature update.
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Yea that's what I meant to say prefade eq dynamics, if I can get this I wouldn't need any other feature update.
I am a bit surprised that it didn't seem like an obvious feature they could have easily implemented at conception with little effort and the absence of this makes me question the competence of the development team. It seems like they need some better experienced audio engineers or maybe simply actually try and test the thing in real situations where stuff like this would become obvious real fast.
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It has been discussed quite extensively, but I suspect the reason they haven't done it is because most "entry level" mixing desks have post EQ post insert Aux sends. Even the Onyx 24.4 I had only had internal jumpers to bypass the EQ for the Aux sends. If you wanted dynamics that meant adding it at a group level to avoid it affecting the aux sends.
I agree that it is something that could have easily been implemented in the first pass, but I guess they didn't see it as high on the list as other elements. Also I think people are making more of an issue of it than it actually is, perhaps because they are overusing the dynamics or aren't setting up monitors particularly well. I've done some challenging gigs and had very few issues with feedback due to either element and the people on the business end of the monitors have typically been very happy with the output they are getting.
Anyway, for everyones' sanity, lets hope they do an update and address at least a few of the top issues. :D
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I havent problem with the dynamics
I use simply if enough free channels y cord to split the lead singers and sometimes the background singers
Then u have separated eq gate and compressor for the main and monitors
Would be nice to have this funtion in the mixer. (Adding virtual channels) but probely not possible due lack of processing power
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DSPs are supposedly fully programmable, so theoretically any combination of routing and processing is possible between inputs and outputs. And the iPad control surface means it is also fully programmable with no limitations in configuration whatsoever. So unless Mackie comes out and says that the DSP they chose has routing limitations, it is their choice not to implement this flexibility.
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Actually it's the ARM that does all the routing and decision making not the DSP. The DSP is happy just number crunching on the signals. As you stated there's plenty of compute power there if you're inclined to use it.
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MixFix:
I am a bit surprised that it didn't seem like an obvious feature they could have easily implemented at conception with little effort and the absence of this makes me question the competence of the development team. It seems like they need some better experienced audio engineers or maybe simply actually try and test the thing in real situations where stuff like this would become obvious real fast.
My take on the design decisions made by Mackie is based on their desire to mimic the analog desks as much as possible and to keep it simple (KISS) for the intended market (just look at their adds). Since it is all just numbers after the A/D converters it's just moving arrays of numbers around to anywhere until you bring it to the outside world via the D to A's. Just look at the full cross-switch implementation of the XAP-800 (XDM I call it) and all the flexibility it has, but at the expense of complexity for the end user. It takes a bit of doing to understand all the possibilities not something that you would present to this target market. I agree that they missed some essential features in their oversimplification but they still have V1.5 to fix it otherwise the competition will do that for them for their more advanced users market. The key here is not to let the advanced features get in the way of simplicity.
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... but it's pretty easy and intuitive to change "Pre" button from a simple on/off to a dropdown with three or four options ... Progressive UIs are a standard concept in the UI/Usability world, and I would find it hard to believe Mackie doesn't understand this.
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You will notice that there are no drop-downs anywhere in the App. I agree that the UI is in need of a makeover but I'm informed that revamping the manual would be too much effort at least until V2.0!
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I just took a quick look at my X32 app (which I had downloaded a while ago) this morning ... they have other bad issues with their UI, but they do have a dropdown for channel send points.
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Their big problem is fixed size windows on all their apps even the AMP one. Hope they fix that soon. Lots of GUI packages out there that are cross platform.
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Actually I'm getting real tired of pointing this out to App developer (over 15 yrs. by now). Write your app using HTML or any of the web tools and you'll open up possibilities you never even dreamed of. Platform independence and remote access are just a few of the benefits.
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I thought the only options for Apple products were the Apple iOS SDK, and HTML5 a distant second if it's even supported.
My knowledge is a few years old, but at that time the smart device choices were Apple vs Android ... Android unfortunately had a lot of variations between manufacturers, making Apple products the first choice to capture the biggest chunk of the market with one API. HTML5 was supposed to solve all of the world's API programming issues, but I haven't heard much more about it in the last few years.
I just took a look on the Apple website and it seems to be focused only on it's SDK. There is the mentione of creating a "Universal App", but in Apple-speak that means an app that will run on an iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch ... ha!
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Let me paint you the bigger picture in WWW tools. First off Chrome, the number 1 browser in the World by far, is available on the iPad. That and Google maps irks Apple more than anything. Yes, that's due to Android that holds at least 70% of the market in smart phones and half the tablet market. Safari has other competition as well. The point here is your not even tied to a specific web browser since they all have to deal with HTML. Who said anything about iPad lock in to SDK's. I believe Mackie made a strategic error in locking into Apple, but I guess birds of a feather flock together, even paranoid ones. Behringer was smarter than that. No use of 30pin or N direct (USB cables for wired connection) and an open protocol on the iX16. Why would anyone want to reinvent the wheel unless their trying to lock you in to their product. That's been tried in the computer world and the wrecks are strewn all over history and none have survived for long. Those that have survived changed their ways (IBM). Isolationism results are well documented through out history, we're a social animal.
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There might also be a more technical and strategic decision for going the Apple route. I'll go with strategic first, which is that music production is typically undertaken on Macs and so the association with Apple provides a more professional appearance and one that existing (Mac) users are likely to buy into. The technical angle is that the hardware platform on which iOS runs is relatively limited and well controlled, therefore, it is easier to ensure your app will work as intended for all users (or at least you can point out which devices may struggle) and will be stable. This has always been the reason that Macs have typically been considered more stable and reliable. Finally, by limiting it to the one platform (which at the time they were developing this product had the major share of the market by a country mile) it meant costs could be kept down, by not having to develop for and support multiple operating systems.
I would somewhat disagree with your (WK154) comment about isolationism resulting in the company creating something new or bespoke having to change its ways, as there are also plenty of examples where it has been the other way round and others have adopted or introduced compatibility with the bespoke (or whatever term is most appropriate) product / technology.
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I think people are making more of an issue of it than it actually is, perhaps because they are overusing the dynamics or aren't setting up monitors particularly well. I've done some challenging gigs and had very few issues with feedback due to either element
A lot of the stuff this little mixer gets into involves little (if any) "sound check" and most of that is limited to basic signal and line checks so it is not always possible to set the monitors up for max GBF and the post eq aux source really limits your courage using eq as a tool for the FOH mix on any stage mics that are hot and close to a monitor that you can not even hear from wherever you might mix FOH. I personally rarely get the stones to do anything but cut eq slightly if even that and there are lots of tweaks that I would otherwise prefer to make, so the fear factor is a limitation that I do not prefer.
I think a lot of these units have taken the place of a mix wiz or similar and even the wiz was customizable (internal jumpers) to allow the pre source to be pre eq and my Crest Xr20 I was using for the small gigs prior also had the ability so I think this is the biggest gripe I found with this DL and bottom line is that it just seems so utterly simple to have included the option and almost seems like an oversight indicative of ignorance.
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MixFix:
I am a bit surprised that it didn't seem like an obvious feature they could have easily implemented at conception with little effort and the absence of this makes me question the competence of the development team. It seems like they need some better experienced audio engineers or maybe simply actually try and test the thing in real situations where stuff like this would become obvious real fast.
My take on the design decisions made by Mackie is based on their desire to mimic the analog desks as much as possible and to keep it simple (KISS) for the intended market (just look at their adds). Since it is all just numbers after the A/D converters it's just moving arrays of numbers around to anywhere until you bring it to the outside world via the D to A's. Just look at the full cross-switch implementation of the XAP-800 (XDM I call it) and all the flexibility it has, but at the expense of complexity for the end user. It takes a bit of doing to understand all the possibilities not something that you would present to this target market. I agree that they missed some essential features in their oversimplification but they still have V1.5 to fix it otherwise the competition will do that for them for their more advanced users market. The key here is not to let the advanced features get in the way of simplicity.
Agreed 100%, the simplicity of the app is the beauty of the design and makes for a very simple analog xover and the lack of a million possible features is part of the recipe and if every single feature we request (within it's capabilities) was added it would no doubt quickly become a crowded surface with too many things for avg user to have to think about as well as potential to cause their own problems. It would also be product support request chaos, though Mackie seems to be fine just ignoring my attempts to contact them for support (several times).
I would love to see some custom app alternatives for advanced users become available through third party app designers and I am sure many of us would be willing to pay for a premium designed app and I would even think we'd step up a bit for an app that cost a few bucks if it were not one of the $3.99 apps. I would pay $50, or more if it was built well and they offered a full featured trial for a few weeks to make sure it isn't crap, at least until enough people were using it to trust it is decent then I'd certainly shell out the dough!
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I might do likewise but if I hadn't already bought a DL even a $6.99 app would have been a serious disincentive, if they sell a $1000 device which won't work without an iPad then the app (at least, they haven't offered a bundled iPad with the DL yet) should be included in the hardware price.
This mixer is going to replace lots of lower end "pub band" mixers (many more than the unique in its class MixWiz) none of which have moveable pre eq/aux inserts so the pre eq/dynamics aux issue is only a big concern for pros stepping down and will not be a concern for the vast majority of users (of course I'd love that feature on my "pub band" desk).
I think it's fair to say that Apple are one of the most successful tech companies in the world and haven't suffered from their technical "isolationism". I'm not an Apple Fanboy (is there such as an Apple Fanpensioner?), I've been into computers and hi-tech for most of my life, I grew up before cassette recorders and cut my computing teeth on DOS. Now while I think Apples business practices are frequently abhorrent, I find myself more and more attracted to products which simply work as expected nearly all of the time. I'm sat in front of a MacBook Pro which I never turn off (OK, once every two or three weeks) but when I'm away from home it lets me get my emails and do a bit of light browsing for a whole long weekend without charging (several hours, my best PC laptop wouldn't run for even two hours without needing charging).
I totally understand why Mackie chose to go with the iPad alone.
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ijpengelly:
I would somewhat disagree with your (WK154) comment about isolationism resulting in the company creating something new or bespoke having to change its ways, as there are also plenty of examples where it has been the other way round and others have adopted or introduced compatibility with the bespoke (or whatever term is most appropriate) product / technology.
Not without supporting open or industry standards unlike Apple that snuffs most. Apple started as an open company I know having bought and developed product since day one from them. I dealt with Jobs and when he turned paranoid with Apple III for those that go back that far I dropped Apple since I had other vendors. Like IBM, Apple will have to come around or be shut out by the World. A company that tries to invade your privacy and control your actions will eventually get your attention it's just a matter of time. Apple is not the only one. The US gov. snooping has set off a lot of concern around the World in server location and may have a large impact on future server locations. It takes $ to make moves so nothing will happen instantly but it will happen. I believe Firefox Os will eventually have a large impact on the smartphone business so iOS and Android may not be the future for long. We're getting to far off subject here. The MI even by Uli B's admission is insignificant in the overall scheme of things to have an impact on mainstream products. To ignore a USB audio standard is downright dumb.
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I fear the volume levels of these units are too low for a 3rd party to make any money building a DL app. So it's really up to Mackie to put the investment into the app where they see fit. Maybe if they had a waiting list of people who will buy when the appropriate feature set is implemented, would they implement those features in a timeline which matches the apparent user demand we are seeing on these forums.
In the future, I hope a good interoperable "sound console communication protocol" emerges that allows for healthy competitive sound console app development separate from the development of the consoles themselves ... then the consumers will really win.
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I fear the volume levels of these units are too low for a 3rd party to make any money building a DL app. So it's really up to Mackie to put the investment into the app where they see fit. Maybe if they had a waiting list of people who will buy when the appropriate feature set is implemented, would they implement those features in a timeline which matches the apparent user demand we are seeing on these forums.
Agreed
In the future, I hope a good interoperable "sound console communication protocol" emerges that allows for healthy competitive sound console app development separate from the development of the consoles themselves ... then the consumers will really win.
Such protocols already exist. Mackie even have one themselves in the form of HUI. For it to be useful Master Fader needs to be accessible via MIDI though.
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I fear the volume levels of these units are too low for a 3rd party to make any money building a DL app. So it's really up to Mackie to put the investment into the app where they see fit. Maybe if they had a waiting list of people who will buy when the appropriate feature set is implemented, would they implement those features in a timeline which matches the apparent user demand we are seeing on these forums.
Agreed
In the future, I hope a good interoperable "sound console communication protocol" emerges that allows for healthy competitive sound console app development separate from the development of the consoles themselves ... then the consumers will really win.
Such protocols already exist. Mackie even have one themselves in the form of HUI. For it to be useful Master Fader needs to be accessible via MIDI though.
I will have to disagree with your assessment regarding 3rd party development. Having been there several times myself. Do the math it's simple. Let say that DL has sold as many as the X32 for which we have numbers of 40,000 units in less than a year (per Uli). Let's say that Mackie has shipped 50,000 units (it hasn't even been a year). This is the risk part what % of the market do you think you could sell to? Let's use 30% since your app is much better than Mackies and is cross platform. The number $50 has been mentioned on this forum but I believe that's too high so let's use $30 (29.95). That's a gross of $450,000.00 for one or two sharp programmers for a year. Ready to quit your day job Sam? It's all academic since Mackie wont release the communications spec for the DL. The USB v2.0 audio device spec has been out since 2006 and would be my choice.
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs
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Not my point actually, Mackie have HUI already, if it could talk to MF that'd be nice (I know it'll never happen). A multi platform protocol as jk suggests would have a much bigger customer base.
No disagreeing with you, mind, I know it's all pie in the sky :(
$450,000 a year... where do I sign.... oh, just a minute, I can't program worth sh1t.... :facepalm:
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The only caveat about a multi-platform multi-vendor protocol is that it won't solve all of our problems immediate, as not all features could be implemented on the client side only. Fader linking, groups, DCAs, shorthand screens, yes -- but anything involving audio signal routing changes (e.g. aux send points) would have to be programmed on the server side as well.
I still think it's a great idea though ... the protocol could be designed to "encompass all" functionality, and recognize server restrictions and adjust the UI accordingly ... and allow our great capitalistic and competitive economy to do it's work in providing the consumer with more complete and feature-rich products across the board.
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What Mackie hasn't figured out yet and may never is that all that secrecy is working against them. Opening up protocols which they've done in the past would only help sell more units (no ND's or royalty payments if they wake up). Hardware clones is not the issue since the competition is already out there and with more to come. With the balance of tablets going against Apple (latest figures from reputable sources places them well under 50%) there is a significant market out there that won't have to buy an iPad.
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1.4.3 is out. I hope 1.5 is not too far away!
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I dunno. The fact 1.4.3 comes out as a patch tells me not to hold my breath for 1.5 within the next 60 days.
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I'm sticking to my October/November time table for V1.5. I'm a bit hesitant in iOS7 as a basis for the release since it upsets the GUI and Audio applecart if the new physics/3D and audio support is utilized. Probably to complex for Mackie. I hope GUI backward compatibility is there to some degree but Apple has a habit of not caring about their 3rd party developers anyway. Mackie if you have a couple of hrs. at least include Audiobus capability in your V1.5 release. http://developer.audiob.us/doc/ . Sept. 10 is now the date for Apple iPhone announcement and will know more then.
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Multitrack recording would be cool.
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I know that Beno stated that multitrack was not possible due to unknown limitations or just marketing BS, but I don't see that limitation. Dl is currently processing all 19 channels so the info is there and to send it out the claimed V2 USB bus is done every day. They could however be using V1.1 data rates only which may make it marginal.
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One item that they better fix is the EQ registration issue. It is the only app I have found that screwed this up and for 5 releases so far. The boundary for EQ start at the top mute button boundary making it a PIA for selecting mute. There is a good 1/8" of separation which would seriously cut down on the mis-selection of the EQ screen. ARE YOU READING THIS MACKIE!!!!
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I think that answer to that is clearly "no"
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I seem to remember multitrack being a licensing issue for the chip being used to interface with the 40 pin connector. Leads one to speculate if the Lightning version will have the same limitation or not? :)
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How can it be a licensing issue with the USB port? You did mean 30 pin connector. The Blackfin CPU has no such issue and I didn't see any USB/cable specific chips in my autopsy other than drivers. Most of the software was supplied by Analog Devises for the OS (Linux derivative) and drivers (USB and Network) for their chip-set.
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All's I can say is that Ben told us it was a licensing issue involving the chip that interfaces the iPad. As I implied they'd be crazy not to "fix" that if they want to survive the invasion of the "clones" :).
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Yup Beno is a marketing guy with lots of BS to feed us with. Not even Apple has gotten to charging for the type of data that you can send over the USB link. If AD has a charge for additional software then Mackie was probably to cheap to go for it. The least they can do is include Audiobus http://developer.audiob.us/doc/ capability. They are Crazy for profit.
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From Mackie's FaceBook page:
Linked stereo auxes and maybe more aux tap point options?
(https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1208906_10151858554166145_1425791_n.jpg)
Woo!
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No matter what the next update comes with the dl does not have enough processing power to contain the really good ones. Most of what they are probably working on deals with control surface functions. That's the app telling the dl what to do. But, unfortunately, the dl is limited in what it can do. Adding things like getting the dynamics off of aux channels would be in the dl itself and probably will never happen. And the peq's instead of geqs may also be limited by processing.
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Some of these features will need to involve DSP programming ....
For example, while simple stereo linked channels can be carried through to the LR bus via client-side only program mods, routing a stereo channel to a stereo Aux will require DSP programming to keep the left and right channels separate all the way through to the aux out (otherwise you get a pair of mono outs).
We have to assume that Mackie has a DSP programming team, or at least access to DSP programmers to continue with bug fixes and enhancements.
What I don't know -- and maybe someone else does here? -- is what limits of the DL's DSP are. From prior threads I understand that DSPs in general are extremely flexible in terms of placement/order of processing units and routing options. So adding more flexible aux tap points should be just as doable as creating a true stereo aux.
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Adding things like getting the dynamics off of aux channels would be in the dl itself and probably will never happen. And the peq's instead of geqs may also be limited by processing.
Changing the tap point of the aux sends takes zero additional processing power (assuming they did things correctly to begin with). I'd bet you that Mackie will soon have the additional tap points based upon their pictures on their FaceBook but I don't want to take your money LOL.
And PEQ's take less processing power than GEQ's. Presonus had quite the struggle going the other way. Whether Mackie will see this as a needed feature is the question. For me just adding variable HPFs and LPFs to all the GEQs will make me happy enough :) .
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simple stereo linked channels can be carried through to the LR bus via client-side only program mods, routing a stereo channel to a stereo Aux will require DSP programming to keep the left and right channels separate all the way through to the aux out (otherwise you get a pair of mono outs).
Actually not - they are already separate. This can probably be done entirely in the app - think about it :) .
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simple stereo linked channels can be carried through to the LR bus via client-side only program mods, routing a stereo channel to a stereo Aux will require DSP programming to keep the left and right channels separate all the way through to the aux out (otherwise you get a pair of mono outs).
Actually not - they are already separate. This can probably be done entirely in the app - think about it :) .
I guess it depends on whether the stereo channel is actually two independent channels in the DSP or not. For the iPad and FX stereo channels the block diagram shows them summing before going to any aux bus. If this is programmed in the DSP this way, then DSP reprogramming will be required to delete the summing when the auxes are paired. However if the block diagram is misleading and the stereo channels are independently going to the aux buses with synced send levels, then as you say client only mods should do it. But that would have required some foresight in the initial design ...
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No matter what the next update comes with the dl does not have enough processing power to contain the really good ones. Most of what they are probably working on deals with control surface functions. That's the app telling the dl what to do. But, unfortunately, the dl is limited in what it can do. Adding things like getting the dynamics off of aux channels would be in the dl itself and probably will never happen. And the peq's instead of geqs may also be limited by processing.
I guess that you either didn't understand or forgot (us old folk have that problem) my analysis from the Autopsy. The DSP is a 400Mhz AD Shark not a slouch and as I explained before the cycle currently is set at 1.5 milliseconds which could easily be doubled before it becomes a problem. The limiting thing in my estimation is Flash Rom (holds the code) which I have no info on as to usage. Ram is plentiful. Then there is the division of labor. The Blackfin ARM CPU does all the logic and data manipulation and communications (not number crunching even though it's quite capable). I doubt that it is challenged and the same time extension applies. This leaves only the Flash Rom space available for a real limitation. Hence DL1608A version. Clever programmers can reduce the footprint. The iPad end will just require you to buy one with more memory. HaHa
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Some of these features will need to involve DSP programming ....
For example, while simple stereo linked channels can be carried through to the LR bus via client-side only program mods, routing a stereo channel to a stereo Aux will require DSP programming to keep the left and right channels separate all the way through to the aux out (otherwise you get a pair of mono outs).
We have to assume that Mackie has a DSP programming team, or at least access to DSP programmers to continue with bug fixes and enhancements.
What I don't know -- and maybe someone else does here? -- is what limits of the DL's DSP are. From prior threads I understand that DSPs in general are extremely flexible in terms of placement/order of processing units and routing options. So adding more flexible aux tap points should be just as doable as creating a true stereo aux.
Is DSP programming done by the Gods? See the Autopsy thread and do some light reading on the Chip specs. Most of the answers are there. Do get the division of labor straight. Who does numbers and who does logic. Too bad Mackie is closed-mouth to these answers. Secret Mackie sauce according to BenO. Yes, never ass-u-me anything about Mackie.
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Not sure if every one else got it but on Tuesday got an update in my email on one of the Items I voted for in the Mackie Features request ... STEREO aux busses for in ear monitors, group pairs and behave like Master bus---Status Started so apparently they are looking at Stereo Aux outs for the update possibly
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Looks like they are working on "Option to split IPAD playback to two separate channels " Status - Started
Still not sure what they hoped to accomplish with that voting thingy they did..... that one had 31 votes and was on page 3 of the requests for updates where as the whole first page has 3 things they are working on (well actually 2 as stereo channel - linking 2 mono channels to make one stereo- and channel grouping/linking are the same ) all of which had several hundreds of votes and seem pretty easy to implement (I mean Custom label Aux Channels, have a master mute for effects on main page, add a break switch )
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Why would you split iPad playback into two mono channels?
I can't think of a use case for this, unless ... is there an iPad sound cue playback app that has the ability to output two mono channels?
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This is the explanation for the request : "Many bands use backing tracks with clicktrack on stage. The most common way to do this is by having a track with a mono mix of the backing track panned left and the click panned right. Those two linked mono tracks have to be routed to FOH and monitor auxes independently which requires two seperate channels. While this is easily possible with "hardware" mixers, you would have to sacrifice 2 auxes and 2 inputs of the DL1608 to loop the iPad playback back to separate hardware channels. "
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Okay I wasn't aware of these "backing tracks" ... sounds like a nifty feature for the DL for small bands who commonly do this ... (but for the rest of us, probably no use at all).
When you say "easily possible with hardware mixers" ... you still have to use two mono input channels and not a stereo input, correct? So there's really no difference between DL and hardware mixers other than using the iPad playback channel to save two of your precious inputs.
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Yes I would imagine so to be straight this is not something I voted for or have any feedback into it's just one of the things on Mackie's "wish list" site that they had all of us who joined their now defunct forum vote on or suggest. personally not something I would probably use but just wanted to keep everyone in the loop on things that they are claiming they are working on
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V1.5 declared dead per Facebook by Mackie it will now be called V2.0. NAMM 2014? RR rename V1.5 to V2.0 thread.
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Mackie now lists pre/post fader DSP as "started".....#MF2.
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Looks like the ball is starting to roll .... now let's hope some of those get changed to "finished" someone soon ...! ;)
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Ooo, exciting! :-) It might be a long wait, but it looks like we might get a few things we didn't ask for.
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Remove comp, pre or post AUX settings......there is hope......now the question is, when!!
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l176/trshot/f0ef5ddb013ae239398c8a0b0c0213e1_zps3b4d00e5.jpg)
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Interesting that the mock up shows the pre/post DSP selection at the aux master level instead of at the channel level. We should be able to make this choice on a channel by channel basis. Maybe they will surprise me, but looks like they are on the way to doing it halfway right.
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Yup another cheap or misguided way out. They desperately need a Systems architect that knows the business.
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^Yep :( . I'm also hoping they understand that a digital mixer typically uses a width control on the stereo linked inputs instead of a balance control.
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The Pic from above already changed on Facebook to eliminate the context it was in. Too bad they aren't as quick to fix problems and add features.
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I'm not sure if this has already been brought up. But wouldn't it be great if we had the ability to lock our presets. I find that I sometimes accidentally save over my presets or sometimes accidentally delete one. It doesn't happen very often. But when it does it is usually a really important preset.
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So nobody brought this Facebook picture up. "Get that compressor out of the monitors #MF2".
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VERY much looking forward to that one
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What is LR Mute?
-Ram
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Old news Jerry
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=234.msg3373#msg3373
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What is LR Mute?
-Ram
I think they realized that global mute is about as useful as global phantom power. The one place that could have used mute they forgot about and that was Main LR.
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Old news Jerry
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=234.msg3373#msg3373
Doh! I missed that one. The only one I saw was the channel linking thing.
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You know when you think about it, changeling the version no from 1.5 to 2.0 is a big leap. What we have seen so far in the teasers does not justify that change. So I figure there is going to be something monumental to come.
I wonder what that could be ? I would like to see multitrack recording via audiobus :-)
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Don't hold your breath, multitracking is a no-no for good technical/hardware reasons apparently. :(
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No technical reason that I can think of. Maybe they didn't want to pay Audibus royalties and don't have enough resources to do it themselves.
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Back in the good old days of the Ma*&ie F*&ums Ben said that there was no possibility of multitrack recording with the present hardware, the DL1608 could only ever record stereo to the iPad. If there was ever going to be a way to do it you can bet Ben (wearing his marketing hat) would have been shouting it from the roof of Mackie Towers.
It would be nice though wouldn't it ;)
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I'm pretty sure it was a licensing issue, not a hardware limitation. Some folks up the chain from Ben think they can sell plenty of them without multitrack recording capability. Ain't that a hoot or what?
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Rr, Beno and many others have said multiple times it's a hardware limitation. Why are we still debating that? The dl was developed during iOS 4 which only offered 2 track recording. No one knew multitrack capabilities were going to be possible at that time. So the hardware was developed around that. This is also why Sam said that Beno said there is NO multitrack capabilities. If it was just a licensing thing he would have not used the word "no".
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The infamous and all enlightening BenO statement about Multitrack recording.
beno (Admin, Mackie) commented · October 31, 2012 3:00 pm · Flag as inappropriate
Unfortunately, this is not possible with the current DL1608 hardware.
There is only one way that's possible and that Mackie implemented V1.1 USB, That's a 1995 issue spec and this mixer was started in 2010 (iOS 4 era). The USB V3.0 was issued in 2008. Talk about state of the art. The V1.1 could only handle 12Mbits on paper thus 17Mbits as required by 16 tracks at 44.1K without overhead would be impossible. There is just one problem with that theory, IT"S NOT HARDWARE!!! This is a digital mixer and after the A/D converter it's software moving numbers around until you send it back to analog via the D/A converter. Sending the data to the iPad won't even be noticed by the Tuna (Blackfin) on a USB 2.0 480Mbits on paper, 250Mbits real world transmission rate. The USB implementation is also not restricted to V1.1. The code is available from Analog Devices for V2.0 etc.. Next, the iOS v4 had usable multitasking implemented which would make multitrack a lot easier. Apple may not have provided more than 2 channel audio recording API's but that's why 3rd party developers and OEM's exist. They write their own code for this like Audiobus. In closing it's quite interesting to note that 16 channel recording request has not been rejected in the Mackie feature lists. So do you want to believe a marketing droid that can't tell the difference between hardware and software?
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Is there a special protocol for multi-track recording? Or it is simply exposing multiple single or stereo tracks outputs from the device, for your computer's multi-track audio recording program to use?
Presonus StudioLive has had multi-track recording from day one: http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-16.0.2 (http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-16.0.2)
Yamaha just added it to their 01V96 series with the 01V96i: http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_sound/mixers/digital-mixers/01v96i/?mode=series
I would hope it's just a matter of programming ... this would be worthy of a v2.0 feature.
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The infamous and all enlightening BenO statement about Multitrack recording.
beno (Admin, Mackie) commented · October 31, 2012 3:00 pm · Flag as inappropriate
Unfortunately, this is not possible with the current DL1608 hardware.
There is only one way that's possible and that Mackie implemented V1.1 USB, That's a 1995 issue spec and this mixer was started in 2010 (iPad 4 era). The USB V3.0 was issued in 2008. Talk about state of the art. The V1.1 could only handle 12Mbits on paper thus 17Mbits as required by 16 tracks at 44.1K without overhead would be impossible. There is just one problem with that theory, IT"S NOT HARDWARE!!! This is a digital mixer and after the A/D converter it's software moving numbers around until you send it back to analog via the D/A converter. Sending the data to the iPad won't even be noticed by the Tuna (Blackfin) on a USB 2.0 480Mbits on paper, 250Mbits real world transmission rate. The USB implementation is also not restricted to V1.1. The code is available from Analog Devises for V2.0 etc.. Next, the iOS v4 had usable multitasking implemented which would make multitrack a lot easier. Apple may not have provided more than 2 channel audio recording API's but that's why 3rd party developers and OEM's exist. They write their own code for this like Audiobus. In closing it's quite interesting to note that 16 channel recording has not been rejected in the Mackie feature lists. So do you want to believe a marketing droid that can't tell the difference between hardware and software?
I'm glad to bow to your greater knowledge here WK an it would be wonderful if Mackie did implement multitrack recording with MF and the DL. I'm not going to hold my breath though, even if it's possible I don't believe Mackie have the will to do it :(
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The Behringer and Phonic "clones" announced both do multitrack - Mackie is going to have to do it too or lose the market.
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Given Mackie's "we know better than you" attitude these days I'm still not holding my breath >:(
I still like my DL though, warts and all. It does 90% of what I want and 100% of what I really need very well indeed.
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As soon as the others get close enough to the DL's price I suspect you will start to see trouble for the DL and Mackie jumping.
Currently the Presonus 16.0.2 is around the $1k mark but it has only 12 mic preamps.
The Behringer X32 rack is selling at FullCompass for $1500 ... get that down to $1000 and I'm sold :)
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Mackie will just release a DL1608mk2 with a lightning connector and "different, multitrack capable, hardware" to try to get us all to upgrade ::)
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$1000 is the magic price point for me ...
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Looks like Mackie is working on a Break Switch option as of today.
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From Mackie's FaceBook Page:
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236120_10151885045616145_1190237776_n.jpg)
Woo! :)
I'll assume this will let me assign the fx to one or two and have my much desired FX mutes available at any scroll position.
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Rr what would this have to do with fx?
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Rr what would this have to do with fx?
On the Behringer you can assign the fx to a mute group :) .
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That will be cool if it's somewhere on the main page and if you can assign anything to it be good to kill all the Mics in between sets
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Rr what would this have to do with fx?
On the Behringer you can assign the fx to a mute group :) .
Yes, BEHRINGER.
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The best you can hope for is that Mackie will make the DL a MFi product such that other apps (Studio 6, Auria, etc.) could use the audio from the DL. The simpler solution would be to make it play with Audiobus. This of course would mean playing nice with other manufacturers software, probably not in their "I'll take all my marbles and go home" plan. A second look at core audio for iOS shows no restrictions on number of audio streams available for recording (within performance limitations) and playback as is demonstrated by apps such as Auria etc..
Jerry got your tracking number yet for the rack or will I beat you to it?
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Assuming Mackie gets mute groups right in 2.0 my interest in the X32 Rack will be significantly diminished. I might even commission a custom rack case for the DL1608 this week :) . I've been holding off to see what 2.0 will give us...
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Assuming Mackie gets mute groups right in 2.0 my interest in the X32 Rack will be significantly diminished. I might even commission a custom rack case for the DL1608 this week :) . I've been holding off to see what 2.0 will give us...
Mute groups is a decision maker between these two? Why would you not take the x32 rack? Price alone? or are there other feature deficiencies when compared to the DL?
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Mute groups is a decision maker between these two? Why would you not take the x32 rack? Price alone? or are there other feature deficiencies when compared to the DL?
I already own the DL1608. I can put up with manual trims but my #1 hate is the lack of a master FX mute like the MixWiz has. OTOH if I was buying next month when (hopefully) both V2.0 is out and the X32 Rack is shipping I'd probably go with the X32 Rack for the extra channels and ability to rackmount in a shallow rack. YMMV
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Wk the current dl will never work for multitrack recording or audiobus. The limitation is in the DLs hardware. Rr I can just about guarantee that the mute groups will be for channels and not effects. Jkow the behringer has everything the dl has and a ton more.
Wk I do not have my tracking number yet because my dl will be going away just before I get the rack. The $ from the dl will be paying for the rack. I need to wait so that it's done in the shortest time possible. So I need to see the rack in stock before I complete everything.
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In the UK the cost of upgrading to the X32 Rack will be around £7-800 (I wouldn't expect to get more than £5-600 for my 11 month old DL1608) that's a big chunk of cash. There will be advantages to the X32 but if I decide to change I'll probably wait 'till the next tranche of digital mixers come around, buy a used X32 Rack and let somebody else take the financial hit.
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Wk the current dl will never work for multitrack recording or audiobus. The limitation is in the DLs hardware.
Wow!! I now have a marketing droid and his legal beagle telling me my business of 50yrs. Really counselor where's the proof. Hearsay oh oh.
If you consider the dual processors in the DL there's more than enough horsepower for such a menial task. The Tuna will handle it all by itself and not break a sweat.
The only way it will never happen is by decree on Mackie's part. Then there's that nagging question of why the request hasn't been rejected in the desired features list.
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Rr I can just about guarantee that the mute groups will be for channels and not effects.
The FX are treated as channels presently so I believe you're wrong - but we'll see :) .
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If you consider the dual processors in the DL there's more than enough horsepower for such a menial task. The Tuna will handle it all by itself and not break a sweat.
The only way it will never happen is by decree on Mackie's part. Then there's that nagging question of why the request hasn't been rejected in the desired features list.
Well damn, I have to agree with you here :) . I predict that Mackie will "suddenly" find a way around their "supposed" limitation as I'm pretty sure they want to survive in this market ;) . And I'll re-iterate that I read that multitrack is a licensing limitation, not a true hardware limitation.
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Rr I can just about guarantee that the mute groups will be for channels and not effects.
The FX are treated as channels presently so I believe you're wrong - but we'll see :) .
Shit your kind of right. I forgot that the effects are actually channels. But why not just hit mute on the channel?
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But why not just hit mute on the channel?
Because they are only visible if you're scrolled all the way to the right. I'm hoping the mute group buttons will be fixed at the top of the screen in all that presently wasted space. It'd be nice to have a tap tempo up there too :) . I'd like the FX mute to be visible on the EQ and dynamics (and all other) screens too in case I'm fiddling with something but this would be a good start :) . Strangely enough the FX mute on the MixWiz is always visible no matter what you're adjusting ;) .
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YAWR (Yet Another Wacky Rumor) :
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=512228085533636&id=440051199417992
Note that is NOT an official Mackie Facebook page.
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Whoa, looks like we drifted a little off topic LOL :police:
Anyway, has anyone updated to iOS7 yet?
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Anyway, has anyone updated to iOS7 yet?
Yes. I had to delete and reload "Voice Record Pro" on both my iPads as it wouldn't start at all on one and got all wonky on the other. One thing I notice is there is now no way to force stop apps? :(
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Force stop app by double clicking and sliding up the app. Can do more than one at a time too.
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Force stop app by double clicking and sliding up the app. Can do more than one at a time too.
Thanks! :)
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OK, I am going to give iOS7 a go and see whether she flies this weekend :-)