Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Harpman on April 20, 2013, 03:31:43 AM
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I know a lot of you have this configuration. I was using my Behringer B212D's prior to the K12's. I would run the B212D's thru the mains and the KSUB thru AUX6. There is one reason I do that. No matter what type of crossover you have, running the mains thru the KSUB and to the K12 or B212 as tops, you still end up with some frequencies that don't need to be in the sub at all. If I run the sub thru AUX6, I have full control over what instruments I want in the sub at all. I'm open for ideas if anyone can convince me otherwise.
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No arguments here. You are doing exactly what you should be doing.
There are lots of reasons aux 6 works better. Sonically it sounds better but there are other reasons too. What if you need to boost the bass some? With the aux 6 method you just raise the fader. With the through setup you need to turn up the volume on the speaker itself. I would rather us the board to do this then having to go over to my speakers every time. I use 2 subs myself and if I didn't use the aux 6 method then I would have to go to 2 subs and raise them both up. Separate sides of the stage. Fighting to get around equipment. I used to do it that way. With the aux 6 setup I just turn up the volume with my aux 6 fader. Easy breezy. Imagine your just running sound. And you are out front. With the through method you have to go back to the stage to adjust the subs to change the bass. Sometimes people say things are too loud and usually that's not coming from the subs. It's the highs that tear through people. With the aux 6 method you can also turn down the tops and leave the bass alone. And vice versa.
Its very nice to have control over what goes into the subs. The subs will be more efficient regardless of their built in crossover. A lot of people like to remove vocals from subs. I like to add a little in for some warmth. With the through method you have to use the eqs to do this. With aux 6 method you can just bring a little vocals back into the subs. I leave the eqs to polish the final sound, not to control my speakers.
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I know a lot of you have this configuration. I was using my Behringer B212D's prior to the K12's. I would run the B212D's thru the mains and the KSUB thru AUX6. There is one reason I do that. No matter what type of crossover you have, running the mains thru the KSUB and to the K12 or B212 as tops, you still end up with some frequencies that don't need to be in the sub at all. If I run the sub thru AUX6, I have full control over what instruments I want in the sub at all. I'm open for ideas if anyone can convince me otherwise.
You still need a crossover for the tops somewhere. The K12's have an internal one that can be switched on - the B212D's don't :( so need an external one.
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Rr the b212s have a high and low eq that works well as a crossover. Just turn down the low. Or of course just use the 31 bad eq as a pseudo crossover. So you don't really need one. And you can only use the aux 6 method if you want to use the 31 band eq crossover option.
Sorry to say this but the b212d's are definitely a high end speaker. The places where they would be used as mains probably wouldn't care about if there are crossovers or not. Gio I'm sure you're glad you switched to the k12s. I have the b210d's and they make great monitors. Especially for the price. I also have k10s and k12s for monitors and they are night and day. I have had to use a b210d with a k12 as mains once at a gig because one of my k12s went out. It worked ok but was a huge tonal difference.
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And you can only use the aux 6 method if you want to use the 31 band eq crossover option.
You don't need that if you are using subs and tops that have crossovers built-in like the QSC "K" series.
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I'm talking about the b212s. If you want to use the 31 band eq as a crossover you need to use the aux 6 method.
Even if you have the k12s and want to use the 31 band eq as a crossover you need to use the aux 6 method. Not saying you want to do this with the k12s, but if you did...
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Rr the b212s have a high and low eq that works well as a crossover. Just turn down the low. Or of course just use the 31 bad eq as a pseudo crossover. So you don't really need one. And you can only use the aux 6 method if you want to use the 31 band eq crossover option.
Sorry to say this but the b212d's are definitely a high end speaker. The places where they would be used as mains probably wouldn't care about if there are crossovers or not. Gio I'm sure you're glad you switched to the k12s. I have the b210d's and they make great monitors. Especially for the price. I also have k10s and k12s for monitors and they are night and day. I have had to use a b210d with a k12 as mains once at a gig because one of my k12s went out. It worked ok but was a huge tonal difference.
JL, I use Behringer F1320D's for the floor monitors. Due to venue space issues, I went with the B205D's. They are plain crap! Glad I purchased the K12's. I'm doing sound for the Brewer Boys (X-Factor fame) tomorrow and trying the K12's then. I'll let you know how it goes. :D
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I used a pair of K12's with the DL on an outdoor acoustic "stage" last weekend (no sub). Highly impressed and very tempted to bash the wallet if I can raise the cash ;D
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And you can only use the aux 6 method if you want to use the 31 band eq crossover option.
You don't need that if you are using subs and tops that have crossovers built-in like the QSC "K" series.
Sorry RR. I think my question in the other thread was answered here.
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And you can only use the aux 6 method if you want to use the 31 band eq crossover option.
You don't need that if you are using subs and tops that have crossovers built-in like the QSC "K" series.
Do you have any idea what the crossover points are on the K12's are when you which to EXT SUB? Would be good information to know. I use to use a Behringer LMS crossover when I had my analog board, but haven't used it since I purchased the DL1608. I know comparing the K12's to the B212D's isn't even a comparison at all. The K12's have a tonal quality that the B212D's will never have.
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I used a pair of K12's with the DL on an outdoor acoustic "stage" last weekend (no sub). Highly impressed and very tempted to bash the wallet if I can raise the cash ;D
IMO the RCF 312a is just as good and considerably less expensive. I love my RCF 310a's. I once used them outdoors to cover 1000, I was told they sounded fine 1/2 mile away. Of course they were solidly in the red :o .
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And you can only use the aux 6 method if you want to use the 31 band eq crossover option.
You don't need that if you are using subs and tops that have crossovers built-in like the QSC "K" series.
Do you have any idea what the crossover points are on the K12's are when you which to EXT SUB? Would be good information to know. I use to use a Behringer LMS crossover when I had my analog board, but haven't used it since I purchased the DL1608. I know comparing the K12's to the B212D's isn't even a comparison at all. The K12's have a tonal quality that the B212D's will never have.
Looks like EXT SUB would set the crossover at 100HZ, Normal (80)? or Deep ??
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I used a pair of K12's with the DL on an outdoor acoustic "stage" last weekend (no sub). Highly impressed and very tempted to bash the wallet if I can raise the cash ;D
IMO the RCF 312a is just as good and considerably less expensive. I love my RCF 310a's. I once used them outdoors to cover 1000, I was told they sounded fine 1/2 mile away. Of course they were solidly in the red :o .
Well I'll tell you RR, I just setup not using the AUX 6 method and love it!! With all QSC equipment, man how clean. Great tonality. Playing some James Taylor through the iPad (flat EQ) and sounds awesome!! The K12 has a 75% coverage area and that's plenty for me.
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There are many "aux driven sub" fanatics out there but generally using a properly matched set of crossovers is easier and sounds better unless you really know what you're doing. I only desire aux driven subs outdoors where you want to keep wind rumble out of the subs. Indoors I prefer using crossover(s) but as I said have been using aux driven lately to avoid carrying any outboard rack gear. OTOH if you are into the "hot subs" sound (running the subs significantly hotter than the tops) aux driven works better for that. But I prefer to not sound like a bad DJ ;) .
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I used a pair of K12's with the DL on an outdoor acoustic "stage" last weekend (no sub). Highly impressed and very tempted to bash the wallet if I can raise the cash ;D
IMO the RCF 312a is just as good and considerably less expensive. I love my RCF 310a's. I once used them outdoors to cover 1000, I was told they sounded fine 1/2 mile away. Of course they were solidly in the red :o .
The other rig at the event was RCF, 4PRO series bins and tops I think. They did sound great but they're a bit more powerful/expensive (around £4000 for two of each....) than the ARTs. The ART312A's are significantly less powerful than the K12 at 400Watts RMS (against 1000) and the max SPL is 4dB's down, not huge but definitely significant. They are, as you say, a lot cheaper though. OTOH the Alto Truesonic TS112A is half the price again and, on paper at least, a match for the RCF's.
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The ART312A's are significantly less powerful than the K12 at 400Watts RMS (against 1000) and the max SPL is 4dB's down, not huge but definitely significant. They are, as you say, a lot cheaper though. OTOH the Alto Truesonic TS112A is half the price again and, on paper at least, a match for the RCF's.
QSC rate their stuff in bullshit watts - no way can their HF driver ever survive 500w. And their LF driver can take maybe 200 continuous - about the same as the more efficient LF driver in the RCF's. The RCF 312s are as loud or louder and sound better when "pushed". The Alto's you mentioned aren't anywhere near the same in output.
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RR all the major companies are rating their class d amps the same way, qsc, ev, jbl all list a thousand watts. And your precious Mackie list that same amp as 2000 watts. Whose more full of shit? I agree with the rating being total bs. But class d amps are rated differently. So are class a and class h.
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Those speakers don't just have amps in them - they also have processing that includes limiting for each driver. Those 500w amps in the K's are probably limited to no more than 100w peak into the HF driver which is about what the RCF peaks at. The drivers in the K's NEVER see all 1000w and probably never see more than what the drivers in the RCF see. It's all bullshit marketing - kinda like the new Mackie speakers with their 2000 w :o. Do you really think the Mackies are twice as loud as the K's ?
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I wasn't able to do a side by side comparison of the K12's and RCF's but was very impressed by the sound of the K12's. The Alto's have 400 watts RMS similar to the Art's. Again in isolation they sound very good for the money but not a patch on the K12's. You are right RR (of course) we always used to rate the HF drivers in passives at 10% of the nominal speaker handling (I.e. the LF driver and crossover) obviously a HF driver in a 1000 watt ??? speaker is not going to handle (or need) 500 watts RMS, I have no idea why QSC and others use such a wildly overrated amp for the HF's. In my experience you usually get what you pay for, the 500 watt (ish) 12+horn cabs which seem to get the best comments on the forums all cost around £750-800 (QSC K12, Yamaha DXR and JBL PRX, there are a couple of threads on the Sound On Sound forums about this).
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The main reason these new class "D" speakers have equal amps on the LF and HF drivers is that it is cheaper to make a stereo class "D" amp than two differently rated mono ones. The amp itself is just as cheap to make at 500w/ch as at 250w/ch since the limiters keep the power supply size the same anyways. It's all bragging rights and marketing BS. For those who think they haven't heard an RCF speaker before the original Mackie SRM450 speakers that were WAY better than the Chinese copies they started shipping after Greg sold the company were private labeled RCF's. As I said I've done 1000 people outdoors with my pair of $400 310A's - try that with them K12's LOL.
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There are many "aux driven sub" fanatics out there but generally using a properly matched set of crossovers is easier and sounds better unless you really know what you're doing. I only desire aux driven subs outdoors where you want to keep wind rumble out of the subs. Indoors I prefer using crossover(s) but as I said have been using aux driven lately to avoid carrying any outboard rack gear. OTOH if you are into the "hot subs" sound (running the subs significantly hotter than the tops) aux driven works better for that. But I prefer to not sound like a bad DJ ;) .
There are many "aux driven sub" fanatics out there but generally using a properly matched set of crossovers is easier and sounds better unless you really know what you're doing. I only desire aux driven subs outdoors where you want to keep wind rumble out of the subs. Indoors I prefer using crossover(s) but as I said have been using aux driven lately to avoid carrying any outboard rack gear. OTOH if you are into the "hot subs" sound (running the subs significantly hotter than the tops) aux driven works better for that. But I prefer to not sound like a bad DJ ;) .
RR, interesting enough the gig yesterday was an outdoor gig at a local winery. We had a lots of wind forcing us to use mic wind screens on the vocal mics as well as the Djembe mic. I didn't experience any wind rumble in the KSub but did in the K12's. Many DJ's are very sub oriented and like lots of sub.I'm still on the fence on which method I want to adopt. In one of your earlier posts you mentioned setting AUX 6 at unitiy gain for Bass, Kick, Tom. I'm assuming your running post fader on AUX 6 as well, so when I adjust lets say the Bass in the house, it's also adjusting the sub proportionally. Correct? Also, when I'm using the AUX 6 method, I boost the frequencies between 60 and 800Hz and cut frequencies between 1K and 20K (pseudo crossover - See attached screen shot). So based on that scenerio, how would you handle the PEQ channel for the Bass? The presets for a Bass are based on a the premise that you are using "Full Range" or a crossover (attached photo). So would you cut low frequencies on the bass PEQ to eliminate the low frequencies in the mains and forcing them to the sub?
Just seems to be a lot more work using the AUX 6 method. I totally understand not having to lug external crossovers to a gig and using the AUX 6 method in lieu of a crossover (pseudo). But since I have the matched KSub, K12's with built in crossovers, its nothing extra I need to lug with me. Also, if I don't bring a sub and decide to run "Full Range" thru the K12's, I can just set the K12's to NORMAL and leave the PEQ on the bass channel alone. Your thoughts? Sorry, couldn't attach photos
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Yah. aux6 is set post fader. If you cut the lows on the bass in the PEQ it will also cut the lows in aux6 as all auxes are post-EQ. If I was you I'd not bother with an aux driven sub as the "K" speakers have decent crossovers built-in.
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Yah. aux6 is set post fader. If you cut the lows on the bass in the PEQ it will also cut the lows in aux6 as all auxes are post-EQ. If I was you I'd not bother with an aux driven sub as the "K" speakers have decent crossovers built-in.
Thanks for the feedback
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There are many "aux driven sub" fanatics out there but generally using a properly matched set of crossovers is easier and sounds better unless you really know what you're doing. I only desire aux driven subs outdoors where you want to keep wind rumble out of the subs. Indoors I prefer using crossover(s) but as I said have been using aux driven lately to avoid carrying any outboard rack gear. OTOH if you are into the "hot subs" sound (running the subs significantly hotter than the tops) aux driven works better for that. But I prefer to not sound like a bad DJ ;) .
The main benefit I find from running Aux driven subs is that you have separate volume control for the subs right at the board instead of having to turn up power amps or tweaking crossovers.
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I have no idea why QSC and others use such a wildly overrated amp for the HF's.
Though the actual amp connected to the horn may actually be capable of producing that power, chances are it's being throttled back with limiters. The other thing is that many compression drivers can actually handle a lot more peak power for short transients than their rms or program rating would suggest. But in days before DSP for loudspeaker control, there was no way to use an amp that big without the high risk of blowing things. Today you can do it if the DSP based limiters are setup to tightly control rms and peak amp output. This has the benefit of getting maximum dynamics out of the horn while still keeping things from blowing up. I can't say one way or the other if QSC is doing this with their K boxes, I have no idea. But I know with high end PA systems this is the case. It's one reason why modern higher end systems sound so explosive compared to days gone by - they reproduce the transients with a lot more power than before though the driver components don't handle much more power than they used to.
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I have no idea why QSC and others use such a wildly overrated amp for the HF's.
Though the actual amp connected to the horn may actually be capable of producing that power, chances are it's being throttled back with limiters. ...
No, it's being "throttled back" with a controller that keeps the highs in line with the overall volume. The limiters in the controller only kick in when the overall volume level hits the threshold set in the controller.
If they were "throttling back" the highs using limiters the sound would be horrible, very bright at lower levels. The K-series sounds good at just about all levels because of the controllers.
I set up a club with a pair of K12's and a KSUB just over three years ago, they've been running constantly with background music during open hours and live bands at shows 6-7 days a week. One amp had a fault in the first year, QSC replaced it and they've been working perfectly since.
However they go about stating their wattage vs. reality is kind of unimportant to me - they sound great, are work-horses, are affordable for the quality, and they have a 6-year factory warranty.
Wattage is much more important when I'm dealing with passive speakers & crossovers - for powered digital speakers I'm happy to ignore ratings & go with what is appropriate for the situation.
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If they were "throttling back" the highs using limiters the sound would be horrible, very bright at lower levels. The K-series sounds good at just about all levels because of the controllers.
This is only true of peak or voltage limiters that actually clip the waveform. I'm specifically referring to 2-stage limiting which incorporates both rms and peak limiting. rms limiting is a slow attack/slow release limiter that works to limit average power to the driver and they do not have the artifacts you're talking about. If you're using an oversized amp for a driver that can easily exceed the rms power handling of a driver, you must incorporate rms limiting as part of the protection scheme or you will surely fry the driver as soon as the system is pushed. If QSC is using an amp with that high of an output rating on a 1" compression driver, they are surely incorporating that 2-stage limiting or the driver would be toast in short order.
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Two stage limiting was the main reason we went with Crown ITechs. It's nice to be able to control the amount of voltage going to your drivers. We biamp our tops with these powerful beasts. The HF drivers would surely melt down without proper RMS limiting. We have them set at 16v(35watts) with a 2 second attack and 4 second release. The amps are capable of 1500w RMS @ 8ohms.
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Low end seems lost.
I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom. I feel like my low end is not really there. Is this becasue my tops have technically twice the wattage aofmy bottom. If so of course I could buy another sub (hmm where is that $1300 I set down a minute ago?) or do I turn the gain down on my tops? Or neither.
Thanks
Chris
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I opt to cut the power on the tops and run the subs wide open.
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Low end seems lost. I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom.
The KSub is pretty "meh" - IMO it would take two per side of the KSubs to keep up with the K12's at full boogie for a modern rock band.
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Low end seems lost.
I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom. I feel like my low end is not really there. Is this becasue my tops have technically twice the wattage aofmy bottom. If so of course I could buy another sub (hmm where is that $1300 I set down a minute ago?) or do I turn the gain down on my tops? Or neither.
It's an issue of efficiency and sensitivity. Subs take more power to get moving compared to tops. By all means, turn down the gain on your tops to get balance. And by all means, get more subs when you can afford it. Really, you can never have too much sub ;) Doubling your subs will net you a 6dB increase in level for the subs. So if you get a good balance dropping the level of your tops with your current setup and you double up on subs later on, you will be able to raise the tops by 6dB to maintain the same balance. And you'll have more sub headroom when driving the system at your current level.
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Location..Location..Location not only holds true in Real Estate but also in Audio. Place you sub against a wall asymmetrical (not centered and not in a corner) if possible. Not far from the tops or you'll introduce other problems. See if that changes the balance. I don't have any idea about your venue acoustics. Mic placement is also critical in any venue as you well know.
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If you can get one sub into a corner and another out into the room (yes asymmetrical) it will make for a much fuller sub frequency in the room, overall.
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If you can get one sub into a corner and another out into the room (yes asymmetrical) it will make for a much fuller sub frequency in the room, overall.
That may be an option for DJs and soloist that are in the corner of a bar. But It's generally not an option for a full band in regular room. Having the mains behind you isn't usually a good thing. Or having the subs located several feet behind the mains can be an issue with time smear unless you delay your tops appropriately. It's true that putting your subs in a corner will net you as much 6dB more relative output compared to on the floor in front of the stage. But there are practical reasons to not do it.
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We play with the speakers behind the band all the time. Proper eq and mic placement compensates for any potential feedback issues. My mains are about 6' above my subs on speaker poles.
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Low end seems lost.
I use K12's for my tops and 1 Ksub for the bottom. I feel like my low end is not really there. Is this becasue my tops have technically twice the wattage aofmy bottom. If so of course I could buy another sub (hmm where is that $1300 I set down a minute ago?) or do I turn the gain down on my tops? Or neither.
Thanks
Chris
Chris, I only run 1 KSub and the low end is plenty. I did an outdoor gig last Saturday where I mic'd up a Djembe and set my channel EQ's accordingly and had to actually back down the sub gain. I started with both the K12's and KSub at unity (12 o'clock position). I had to set the sub between 10 and 11 o'clock which I would assume somewhere between -3 to -6db.
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By placing one sub near a corner, you are essentially turning the entire room into the speaker enclosure.
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I thought that we are talking about ONE sub and I did say NOT in the corner. and since I don't know the layout it's clearly a trial and error thing. But there usually is some extra (3dB) that can be squeezed out of a venue. Acoustics has nothing to do with DJ's etc. If were also talking about the DL then delays are not to be had. Nothing was implied about mains behind the talent.
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I thought that we are talking about ONE sub and I did say NOT in the corner. and since I don't know the layout it's clearly a trial and error thing. But there usually is some extra (3dB) that can be squeezed out of a venue. Acoustics has nothing to do with DJ's etc. If were also talking about the DL then delays are not to be had. Nothing was implied about mains behind the talent.
I was stating that this is the way that I do it. I run 2 subs and most of the time I set up the band with the speakers behind. I never mentioned DJ either. I realize that you said NOT in the corner but for anyone here who isn't familiar with using subs, there are ways to optimize their effectiveness in a room by positioning 1 sub, even if that is the only one you have, near a corner and then tweaking it's location until you have tuned the room the way you want it to sound.
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By placing one sub near a corner, you are essentially turning the entire room into the speaker enclosure.
Yup, it's boundary loading. For every surface you add within a 1/4 wavelength of the enclosure, you net a 3dB gain in output as each surface acts as an acoustic "mirror" doubling the number of virtual drivers. So:
sub hanging in mid air = 0dB (whole space loading)
sub on the floor = +3dB (half space loading)
sub on floor and against 1 wall = +6dB (1/4 space loading)
sub on floor in corner against 2 walls = +9dB (1/8th space loading)
In theory if you had a horn shaped room and placed the sub in the small corner where the ceiling met the floor, you'd have +12dB more output compared to whole space.
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By placing one sub near a corner, you are essentially turning the entire room into the speaker enclosure.
Yup, it's boundary loading. For every surface you add within a 1/4 wavelength of the enclosure, you net a 3dB gain in output as each surface acts as an acoustic "mirror" doubling the number of virtual drivers. So:
sub hanging in mid air = 0dB (whole space loading)
sub on the floor = +3dB (half space loading)
sub on floor and against 1 wall = +6dB (1/4 space loading)
sub on floor in corner against 2 walls = +9dB (1/8th space loading)
In theory if you had a horn shaped room and placed the sub in the small corner where the ceiling met the floor, you'd have +12dB more output compared to whole space.
Excellent info Greg! The whole point is that, if you find that your subs are not keeping up with your tops, you probably have them poorly positioned in the room.
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Just to be clear, we are taking about setting up indoors. I would never have the speakers behind the band outdoors. I am also talking about small clubs and not large venues. My first objective is to get the thump going in the room, everything else is icing on top of that. With my mains at 6' (above the vocal mics) I don't find it very hard to dial up good vocals without feedback.
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Outdoors is a free field situation a whole different world. Lee the DJ thing was directed to Greg. Trying to compact replies.
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good points all thank you
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You may have to flip the fase switch to get full bas when placing the sub away from the tops
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Anybody have any exp. with the new carvin powered 18" subs?
Chris
Link
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/LS1801A
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Just ordered a second K12 sub. AMS had a stupid deal of the day with 12 month financing at no interest so it is on it's way. Can't wait.
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Just ordered a second Q12 sub.
What's a Q12 sub?
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Err KSub
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Interesting that you asked about the Carvin 18" sub. We have a 2 year old LS1801NA powered sub that really kicked. For our rock dance band, we rented a couple others that were anemic. The Carvin gave us that kick drum punch we needed.
Then it just died this week, right before Friday night's gig! ...D'oh!
I'm so sick of powered subwoofer failure. I've had two home stereo powered subs fail, and now two pro audio powered subs crap out. These cheap Chinese plate amps, argh. I dunno, maybe Carvin makes their own amps, since they make the cab and assemble everything. Hoping they'll let me ship just the amp, from here on Maui, for repair or replacement.
Maybe the newer Carvin powered sub model is more reliable. I'm on the Carvin forum and a few sound pros over there like their passive speakers, but claim their amps are not real reliable.
Who makes the most solidly reliable, good value, powered sub? (probably a huge thread right there!)
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I have an EV sB750 bought used 5 years ago, awesome piece of kit. A mate, who was a tech manager at AMEC back in the day, borrowed it once and, on return, described it by saying "it can't half move some air". Amp-wise it's been totally reliable but the speaker died (to be fair when it was a few years old, and I did buy it from a DJ.....) when the adhesive attaching the cone failed. I had it re-coned by RMJ Loudspeakers and it's now better than ever.
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Keep in mind that Carvin as about as bottom of the barrel you can get when it comes to anything they make. If reliability with real output is what you want, then you have to spend real money. Unfortunately the people who tend to abuse gear the most also tend to buy the cheapest gear that can't handle it. Most any gear can be blown up when pushed too hard, though the top shelf stuff is much harder to blow up due to hardcore limiters for protection. The cheaper stuff tends to blow up a lot faster. Some of the more expensive stuff does to, like the Mackie HD series. But their stuff is far from top shelf too. The mid priced EV stuff does tend to hold up and sound better than a lot of the others.
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Mahalo...
I have lotsa Carvin guitar gear that has been solid. But I'm going to move away from their pro audio and p.a. stuff. Also just had their in-ear monitor, receiver belt pack, fail on me. But even at two years old, they are sending a free replacement. But those units are just rebranded, they don't make 'em.
The sub we definitely don't overdrive, usually keeping the volume knob at 1 or 2. Which is usually plenty in small bars & clubs.
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Some very good friends well know in the international punk rock scene got a sponsorship from Carvin years ago for all their back line gear. All of it was flight cased with Anvil cases. Within 2 weeks, 100% of the gear had failed. Amps, speakers, and instruments. They dumped the sponsorship and never looked back. So I'm not so hot on their musician gear either. You may think, "oh sure, it was punk rockers." But truthfully, they take very good care of their gear and don't smash things or knock things over like a "stereo typical" punk rock band. They just play rock music really. After that it was back to standard names like Mesa Boogie, GK, etc. which have given them little grief. All the PA gear I've used of theirs from the 90s on has been utter garbage. Back in the 80s, they actually had some "ok" speaker systems for that era. But the mixers were still awful.
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I use the K12s with Carvin SW1801 subs. Running subs on aux, the only issue is playing break music in between sets at club gigs. Then you do get higher, unwanted frequencies into the subs. Might try the crossover route soon, when I need that extra aux mix for another stage monitor.
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If you can live with mono FOH and want all of your auxes available and "aux subs" as well, try this: Pan all non sub channels hard left and sub channels (kick, bass, etc) panned center. Take the main L to one channel of a crossover and on to your tops. Take main R to the other channel of the crossover and on to your subs. Now you have all auxes available and your main fader controls tops and subs. If break music is played through channel inputs, just pan center. If it is played from the ipad while docked, you need to turn on mono audio in settings.
And guys, let's don't start that mono vs. stereo FOH debate!
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And guys, let's don't start that mono vs. stereo FOH debate!
Stereo sounds better. Who would debate that?
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And guys, let's don't start that mono vs. stereo FOH debate!
Stereo sounds better. Who would debate that?
He said "don't start....." :facepalm:
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Couldn't resist baiting me, could you? Stereo sounds better when I am sitting on my couch between two stereo speakers or when I am listening to an act dead center. When I am in front of the left stack and the guitar is panned right, I would prefer mono so I can actually hear the guitar. To me, it is about consistent coverage. Having said that, I understand that there are ways to use panning effectively, fx sound better in stereo, and there are some tricks to create a stereo field that still gives good coverage. However, when I am doing an event that requires 160 to 180 degree coverage, I can't figure out how to pull off stereo.
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160-180 degrees is nothing. Most bars and smaller venues, hell even some large ones, have people everywhere. In front, left side. right side, behind the band etc... So running a stereo mix in a crowd like that is just plain silly. Especially when doing a live band. Most of the instrumentation can destroy the stereo mix too. Maybe you could have 2 drummers. One near stage left speaker and one on stage right. Each only playing half a kit. Stereo set up is only beneficial in near perfect scenarios. And when not in that perfect one it can actually ruin the sound to the audience.
I personally do run break music in stereo most of the time. But only when I'm in venues that don't have audience placement issues. When I play on the cruise ship (on my way there now) the speakers are spread out far enough that a stereo mix will lose half the sound to half the audience. The room is long left and right. It sounds better to the room mono. And a big FYI to you stereo only people, there a a lot more rooms that are not perfect than those that are. If you refuse to run mono when it's necessary than good for you, ignorance is bliss.