Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: WK154 on May 31, 2013, 01:16:22 AM
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RR don't put this under auxes!
I didn't think I would see this showing up in any new Kit, but Mackie has done it. I misplaced my old hummer so I had to wait for the parts to arrive and they did today. Placed one lead on chassis (the one you have to bring out by the PSW connector area) and the other to any XLR Pin 1 or sleeve on the Auxes and it hum's like a bumble bee. Need any more proof? I'll record it later. The other power supplies fixed the problem. Lucky for Mackie and those who bought a DL. Let's see if Mackie will ante up and send out replacements? APX has the correct PSW or certainly can provide it. Probably should notify Mackie officially and wait for their excuses. Mackie Lurkers?
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Are you trying to tell us that you have found a power supply that has the AC ground connected to the minus but doesn't have pin 1 issues? I'd love to be wrong in my belief that the noise problem is inherent to the tying together of the AC ground and the minus in the power supply !
For those wondering what the hell he's talking about (and for the Mackie "engineers" who seem to be oblivious):
http://pin1problem.com
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I guess you haven't been understanding the posts. That is exactly the problem Safety ( Chassis) ground on the DC power return. It is a direct execution of what is called common impedance coupling. The noise is also fed to the DC to DC converters, 48V, +- 15V and 3.3V come to mind all from 12V DC. Why don't you try it with a hummer?.
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I'm just not following you. If the problem is as I said how can any power supply swap fix it assuming said power supply still brings the safety ground out to the mixer via the minus lead?
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Are you trying to tell us that you have found a power supply that has the AC ground connected to the minus but doesn't have pin 1 issues?
No where did I make that statement?
If the problem is as I said how can any power supply swap fix it assuming said power supply still brings the safety ground out to the mixer via the minus lead?
Because the power supplies don't bring the safety ground to the minus lead into the mixer (except for Mackie's). It's called isolation. If you want to keep the chassis from floating then you need to tie it to safety ground but not thru the power supply and in as direct a path as possible and after the DC to DC converters. You cannot eliminate ground currents into other devises that are attached but you can minimize the effect on their performance. As someone once said "electrons don't read schematics".
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@WK154
Can you make a sketch ?
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No where did I make that statement?
You seem to be reluctant to tell us which particular supplies you are testing and how they differ from the "stock" supply.Because the power supplies don't bring the safety ground to the minus lead into the mixer (except for Mackie's). It's called isolation.
Some Behringer mixers with external supplies use a three wire connector so that the safety ground can be brought into the mixer separately from the minus (as is proper). Your contention seems to now be that Mackie could ship power supplies with no connection between the minus and safety ground. I doubt they could do that and still pass CE tests :(.
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RR: I must have ESP, I answered your question before you asked it!
"You seem to be reluctant to tell us which particular supplies you are testing and how they differ from the "stock" supply.
My Quote from prior post
Because the power supplies don't bring the safety ground to the minus lead into the mixer (except for Mackie's). It's called isolation."
I hope that answers your question.
I have 4 supplies that I've used for testing including the original. I will publish the results soon. Real world numbers not theory or FUD.
Model #1206 LCD AC Adapter 3 prong (Amazon 9.39 + 8 for ship)
Model ST-C-075-12000600CT 2 prong (Internet ~10.00 inc. ship)
Xpower Model 305D lab supply (69.00)
APX SP50Q912LR Mackie original (~70.00 from a post)
I'm sure the model # will make a difference (or at least shut you up).
BTW these are only part of the power supply used to get around bureaucracy testing. There is no 12V used in the mixer except for the intermediate stage of several power supplies (DC to DC Converters). 48V phantom power, 5V for iPad charging, 3.3V for digital logic, +- 15V for the analog section. The grounds from these are tied to chassis ground and chassis ground should be tied to AC safety ground. That's the way it's been done for decades. The DL pulls about 1.5 - 2.5 amps @ 12V depending on loading for those interested.
If you purchase a supply be certain that the connector is a 5.5mm/2.5mm variety. RFI magnetic s on the cable would also help. As to the approval by such agencies as CE or UL etc. there are over several hundred million of these out in the world. CE and UL think there safe. There was a post regarding the power connector being unreliable and having to spread the pin to make it work. Loose the retaining nut it's the cause. The replacements don't have one. It won't let the connector contacts centering work properly. If your really concerned about someone pulling out the power cord, well that's why God made gaffer tape.
If your impatient about the frequency of my posts rest assured that this is NOT at the top of my priority list.
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Thanks! I'll put my tooth extractor away now ;).
(http://www.meetadentist.com/dentalcare/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/tooth-extraction.jpg)
... or not, still can't find the listing for this one:
Model #1206 LCD AC Adapter 3 prong (Amazon 9.39 + 8 for ship)
That's the one I'd be most interested in - a 3 prong with no connection between the output and safety ground. :)
And it doesn't matter if the supply is CE approved (although that's a necessary start), the whole shebang has to pass as a system. I walked a product with a line wart through CE testing just the summer before last x(. It was a home medical product, the testing requirements were particularly tough :o.
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For medical products that's another can of worms. That's why you see a lot of legalese about use of products not fit for life dependent use. So what medical use have you found for the DL? Colonoscopy? The Amazon product for 9.39 comes from several vendors and Amazon doesn't list their model # that's why I said it's pot luck. I e-mailed the folks at APX who have been quite helpful to see if they have a model SP50D1R912LR where the L stands for low ripple/noise. To date the 2 prong unit has the best real world results (excluding the lab supply).
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BTW, did that current measurement include the iPad charging? That 3A supply I just ordered is cutting it a bit close if there's another half amp draw for charging :o
Why would you order a 3 amp supply when all the units I have been working with are 60Watt (5amp) or better?
So much good all those part # did!
We'll see if the supply can handle it. It'll be more efficient. Need to make sure it stays cool.
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Topsøe Can you make a sketch ?
A sketch of what?
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Why would you order a 3 amp supply when all the units I have been working with are 60Watt (5amp) or better?
Because you said the highest you measured was 2.5A, it was only $9 shipped, and just because I could ;) . Do you think you've cornered the market on orneriness :P?
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To date the 2 prong unit has the best real world results (excluding the lab supply).
How would it do in the RF radiated, conducted and susceptibility tests? Leakage current testing? If Mackie was to switch to it they'd have to pass those first :( . Again, I suspect they went with the safety ground tied to the minus because they had to.
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No different than the hundreds of million Laptops and LCD panels currently using these supplies.
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No different than the hundreds of million Laptops and LCD panels currently using these supplies.
Those don't have FUBAR grounding systems like the DL1608 ;) .
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In defense of Mackie the mixer works fine if you keep all your systems balanced and use shielded cable. It just has more noise than it can have.
Those don't have FUBAR grounding systems like the DL1608 ;) .
And you know this how???
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Those don't have FUBAR grounding systems like the DL1608 ;) .
And you know this how???
Because that's how you get them to pass CE with a two wire AC adapter :P 8).
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Because that's how you get them to pass CE with a two wire AC adapter :P 8).
They don't have a Safety ground pass thru!!
You really need to read and understand Bill Whitlock's 2005 Seminar paper about Grounding Audio and Video systems.
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I give up - carry on :o.
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@WK154
Of your setup , with special attention to audio-ground and safety ground
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No need it's quite simple. I attached chassis ground lead to both screws (only one is necessary) in the power supply/network connector area. This is the one used to provide direct connection to AC safety ground (typically a green wire). There are 6 other screws on the base of the DL that are also chassis ground connected but inconvenient to attach AC safety to.
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The results from 4 power supplies for the DL. I am measuring power supply and DL electronics chassis leakage. Not using IEC60601-1 Human impedance load.
I have a lab supply with very low ripple and noise ( <= 2mA and <= 1 mV) . Hooking up + and - produced < .1mV @ 1.2 uA without any chassis ground connected and needless to say no audible noise from the unbalanced C50 speaker. All test except for the speaker required one was performed without
any devices attached to the DL not even the iPad. With the chassis ground all readings were below the measuring equipments range (0.1 mV and 0.1 uA). Very quiet but remember the noise will always be there just not relevant. This indicates that the noise is not from internal electronics RFI as one theory goes. The pin one problem was eliminated. Unfortunately the size and weight make it an impractical solution. It did give current draw of the DL at 12V to be between 1.35 - 2.2 amps depending on load and iPad charging. I did not fully load all 16 channels and 6 aux-es and 2 outputs. Actually it was fairly light 3 mics, the speaker and the iPad charging. One condenser requiring phantom power. Anyone for testing with a 12V battery? 10hrs like the iPad would require about 25-35 Ah sealed lead acid battery.
Next lets tackle the original issue PS the APX with safety ground tied to the DC return output. In its original configuration it measures 0.3 - 0.5mV @ 16 - 18uA. The safety return shunts an additional 51 uA for the PS total of 79 uA total leakage. The manufacturer rates this at 120mV ripple/noise @ 3.5mA leakage max. It certainly beats max specs by a goodly margin. Unfortunately it's not good enough for low noise or the pin one effect by injecting this as the input to the DC to DC converters. Adding the chassis ground drops the values to 0.1 - 0.2mV @ 4.2 - 4.5uA but the noise injected into the DC to DC converters even at this level is the real reason for the poor performance. No change in the pin 1 problem it just hums a little less.
Now for one of the solutions. The first is a three prong AC connector but no pass thru safety ground. The Model #1206 LCD AC supply no manufacturer given by Amazon. The measurement without the chassis ground are 5.1mV @ 187uA which drops to <= 0.1mV @ 1.4 - 1.5uA with the chassis ground connection. No safety ground noise dumped onto the DC return line and yes no hummer noise. Pin one problem gone.
Solution two a two prong plug model ST-C-075-12000600CT from e-bay adaptermonsters again no manufacturer name. The non chassis ground values are 7.1mV @ 195uA that gets reduced to <0.1mV @ 1.9 - 2.0uA with the chassis ground. Again no hum and no noise with and without the hummer. Reversing the AC plug has no effect. Great for mis-wired AC outlets.
Most Pro Audio folks would simply state that if a unit has pin one problems "Don't Buy It". I believe the Dl has the fortune of being corrected with a minimal cost change. Of course Mackie should do this instead of it's customers.
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I believe the Dl has the fortune of being corrected with a minimal cost change. Of course Mackie should do this instead of it's customers.
Nice work. Big kudos to you for isolating the cause. That last statement is the crux of the issue. Mackie is poor about acknowledging issues let alone fixing them sadly. And this is why I can't recommend their gear.
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This was my first Mackie product and will be my last. I did work of and on for 15 yrs. with a C1604VLZ an average but reliable workhorse that now needs to be replaced. Greg Mackie's name was on the company and he cared for his customers far more than the current Bean Counters. I always believe in voting with your money. No Apple, no Mackie and the list goes on. Going on the chopping block soon. My XDM works fine as a replacement for my applications.
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I haven't had a problem with the noise on the aux channels as all my monitors are balanced. The solution, if the problem arises, isn't going to sink my ship technically or financially or so it would seem. Perhaps Mackie will replace the PSU on current production models?
I can only think that it was an oversight that Mackie didn't test unbalanced sources and their shortcomings.
Perhaps their aim was at a more professional market (or more 21st century) in their unbalanced oversight.
How many "beans" difference between the supplied and the optimal PSU? Enough to make it worthwhile financially and potentially cause all this ill will towards a great little desk?
Regardless, my experience with the DL is getting better with use. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good for the price. Think back a few years and what we would have paid (and how we would have drooled) for a desk like the DL!
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I finally received Mackie's reply to their pin 1 problem. Please note that I never mentioned balanced or unbalanced in my request. Their answer tells me that they were clearly aware of the unbalanced problem. Professional market with that advertising??? You've got to be kidding!!!! They list all the usual documents on the subject, unfortunately they don't understand them. Well here is their reply in it's entirety.
Subject: RE: Pin one problem with DL1608
Priority: Normal Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:57 PM Size: 7 KB
Sorry for the delay. From our findings when using the unit as it comes out of
the box, the noise experienced only happens with unbalanced connections and not
due to a failure with the DL1608. We (the manufacture of this product) strongly
recommend all DL1608’s to be operated with balanced cables and balanced devices
for Aux Sends and Main Outputs. Doing so will result in No Hum and No Whine at
all. Mackie always recommends using balanced cables and connectors whenever
possible. The DL1608 is a professional product and it is designed to be used
with professional balanced connections.
Balanced connections give you the best possible performance with the least
possible noise. With unbalanced connections, many things can contribute to
increased noise including the following: the length and type of cables, the
devices in use and how they are powered, other devices in the environment, and
the power supplied at the location.
Balanced connections ensure that the signal and its reference are completely
separate from the shield, and that they both have any noise induced equally; the
receiver then looks at the difference between the signal and reference lines for
the desired audio signal, cancelling out any induced noise. This cancelling out
of equal noise on each line is called “Common Mode Rejection”.
When using an unbalanced cable for outputs from the DL1608, like with other
products designed for balanced connection, the noise is not canceled at the
receiver and can work its way into your audio. When the shield of an unbalanced
connection forms part of a loop (e.g. by connecting to other chassis, with other
shielded cables and/or grounds), various types of hum/buzz/noise currents can
circulate. These can easily create noise in the audio signal when it flows
through any part of the loop shared by the audio signal/return loop and has
resistance (“Common Impedance”). For unbalanced connections, at minimum there is
usually a loop in the cable shield itself; larger loops have more chance of
interference causing noise currents.
Here’s a link to a video that gives a simplified visual of how this works:
http://youtu.be/jo5HhfIUSP0
For even more detail, these two PDFs from our friends over at Jenson
Transformers are full of useful information:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf
Unfortunately, the combination of gear in your particular environment(s) is
noisier than desired when using unbalanced cables. As described above, this is
never the cause of one particular device, but a symptom of the combination of
all the devices in your system and power and environment being used.
The ideal, safest, and most reliable way to ensure a noise free cable run when
both devices have balanced connections, is with a balanced cable run. There are
solutions for those situations that don’t contain balanced inputs, and for that,
we recommend an isolation transformer or DI box, or using specially created
unbalanced interconnects. The fine folks at Rane have a great document to help
including instructions for building your own custom interconnect cables:
http://rane.com/note110.html
I hope this helps, let us know if you have further questions.
Technical Support
Mackie/TAPCO/Ampeg/Crate
LOUD Technologies Inc.
800-258-6883 ext. 1633
Please feel free to contact us if you have further questions.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 6:24 PM
To: Technical Support
Subject: Pin one problem with DL1608
I have tested your DL1608 for pin one issues and it has failed. Do you have a
solution for this problem? The test was from a chassis ground on the DL to any
pin 1 or sleeve contact with a hummer.
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Yup, they totally ignored the fact that by failure of the hummer test that they have a faulty grounding scheme. And they're still blaming end users and everyone else's gear but their own. Also, they claim in the manual that those jacks are dual mode which means balanced cables are not required like all their other mixers. But then they renege on that function in public. Lame.
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Aside from the word "professional", the ones that stick their heads in a urinal and flush, I really like this one.
For unbalanced connections, at minimum there is usually a loop in the cable shield itself; larger loops have more chance of interference causing noise currents.
Mackie now has traffic cops to route the electrons in the shield to make sure that there is a loop formed! I must be interpreting this wrong or did they just develop a new electronic miracle.
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One of the things in my testing I forgot to mention was the spectral content of the noise. The old Doo-Wop group that's been around for ages "Sixty Cycles and the Harmonics" are a no-show. The ugly chopper PWS created 60 cycles has other frequencies generated thru out the audio spectrum.
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No different than the hundreds of million Laptops and LCD panels currently using these supplies.
Those don't have FUBAR grounding systems like the DL1608 ;) .
On the contrary. A very large number of laptops with three wire supplies produce exactly the same kind of noise when their headphone output is hooked up to a sound system. Ground lifting them beats it, or selecting an alternate supply with only two wires.
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+1 - I've experienced that also.
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No different than the hundreds of million Laptops and LCD panels currently using these supplies.
Those don't have FUBAR grounding systems like the DL1608 ;) .
On the contrary. A very large number of laptops with three wire supplies produce exactly the same kind of noise when their headphone output is hooked up to a sound system. Ground lifting them beats it, or selecting an alternate supply with only two wires.
You know this how?
Not sure what that has to do with CE certification. A little out of context. But while were on the laptop subject I have yet to have a problem with one that is also connected to AC. For the most part I deal with Toshiba's, nor have I had a desktop pose this problem. TV's and DVD players have. It all depends on the equipment. Mackie hasn't cornered the market on poor engineering. Knowing Mackie they probably also did self certification on the CE mark. I have a DL that is non-conforming to the FCC consent degree as do most of you. As of late Dec. 2012 all units should have FCC certs. If you return the DL for repair they have to mark it FCC cert.. Yes a label! That and other violations netted Mackie a "Donation" of $85,000.00 to the gov.. Part of the gov. economic recovery program I'm sure.
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I must have built my hummer wrong somehow. I got nothing, which really surprised me.
Now for one of the solutions. The first is a three prong AC connector but no pass thru safety ground. The Model #1206 LCD AC supply no manufacturer given by Amazon. The measurement without the chassis ground are 5.1mV @ 187uA which drops to <= 0.1mV @ 1.4 - 1.5uA with the chassis ground connection. No safety ground noise dumped onto the DC return line and yes no hummer noise. Pin one problem gone.
Solution two a two prong plug model ST-C-075-12000600CT from e-bay adaptermonsters again no manufacturer name. The non chassis ground values are 7.1mV @ 195uA that gets reduced to <0.1mV @ 1.9 - 2.0uA with the chassis ground. Again no hum and no noise with and without the hummer. Reversing the AC plug has no effect. Great for mis-wired AC outlets.
The Amazon supply that comes up now searching "1206 LCD AC supply" is 14v 3A.
ebay seller Adaptermonsters doesn't list a ST-C-075-12000600CT at the moment, but the sellers that do call it 18V 3.5A.
The Mackie supply I have is 12V 4.2A.
What are the specs on the supplies you're testing?
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http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db1213/DA-12-2009A1.doc
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Re-read the post! The 3 prong supply is a 12V 6amp and there are plenty out there. I will repeat again it's pot luck. The model# are off the actual units but are never advertised as such. The 2 prong is a 5amp unit. RR should have his 3amp by now. waiting to hear from him.
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On the contrary. A very large number of laptops with three wire supplies produce exactly the same kind of noise when their headphone output is hooked up to a sound system. Ground lifting them beats it, or selecting an alternate supply with only two wires.
You know this how?
My own experience. HP, for instance, used to sell both 2 wire and 3 wire supplies for Thinkpads. The 3 wire supplies frequently gave me buzz issues. The 2 wire supplies never do. Compaq, Dell, Motion, I've seen this a lot of times. It's not a concern for the manufacturers, because pro audio is not their normal application. Mackie, however, should obviously have known better.
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Re-read the post! The 3 prong supply is a 12V 6amp and there are plenty out there. I will repeat again it's pot luck. The model# are off the actual units but are never advertised as such. The 2 prong is a 5amp unit. RR should have his 3amp by now. waiting to hear from him.
I guess I'm asking the wrong question. Searching on the model information you've given us is only finding me inappropriate supplies. What searches are you using to find appropriate ones?
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Google 12V 6A Amazon
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thnx
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-12-Volt-DC-Power-Supply-5-Amp-5A-12V-Adapter-LCD-CB-/280869637201?pt=Laptop_Adapters_Chargers&hash=item4165228c51
AdapterMonster supply
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Bought that one. 2 wire AC cable. Mackie's digital hash is gone. On the other hand, this supply makes it's own noise, and radiates like crazy. Very position sensitive. Noise goes up when I touch it and become an antennae. Still a dramatic improvement.
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Did you run the chassis ground to safety? Without it you missed the boat.
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Did you run the chassis ground to safety? Without it you missed the boat.
Tried the screws next to the ethernet jack, and tried the ground nut of the 1/4". Noise increased slightly. Granted, this was a worst case hookup, 1/4" ts to an unbalanced input high gain device, cranked up. At normal operating levels, the noise is easily acceptable with the adaptermonster supply. Reviews of these supplies on Amazon by people using them for their intended purpose, powering LCD monitors, do talk about noise in the image frequently, though. It doesn't suffer from Mackie's ground issue, but it's certainly not a quality piece of kit. Still and all, I'll use it. I'll also carry the Mackie supply.
Thanks for finding this.
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You definitely don't want to use the 1/4 nut and the screws by the power/net plugs may miss the chassis shield that's why I used spade lugs to squeeze between the plastic case and the chassis for a good connection.
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Newby, to posting anyway. 1st, RR Thank you for doing this forum. I was suckered into getting a DL per the decent marketing and have been limping along, better with the help of this forum and it's contributors. thx all!!
WK154, Thank you for being smarter than I and sharing your knowledge. Much appreciated, but I am having just a little trouble following in your footsteps.
I just purchased the replacement psu that you prescribed, but I am short of knowing exactly where I'm adding a jumper.
1st you said, "« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2013, 07:02:20 PM »
Quote
No need it's quite simple. I attached chassis ground lead to both screws (only one is necessary) in the power supply/network connector area. This is the one used to provide direct connection to AC safety ground
So, I thought I would add ring connector under the psu connector nut and jump to the little case screw that's close, but then you said, "« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 07:39:34 PM »
Quote
You definitely don't want to use the 1/4 nut and the screws by the power/net plugs may miss the chassis shield that's why I used spade lugs to squeeze between the plastic case and the chassis for a good connection.
So, I'm off the trail and lost. Please advise. :-\
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That's why I stated to squeeze a spade lug between the plastic case and the chassis stradling the screw so it makes good contact and run it to the safety ground on a three prong plug. I cut the existing two prong and replaced it with a three prong adding the safety/chassis ground.
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@WK154
Can you make a sketch ?
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the screws by the power/net plugs may miss the chassis shield
The screw contacted something, because the noise changed, right? Are you wedging your spade lug down from the top to make firm contact with the front panel? I'm not picturing it clearly.
Just got an Airport Extreme, and noticed that it's got a 12v supply with the same size barrel, and a 2 wire plug, and Apple's build quality. It's only 1A, so I wouldn't consider using it for any length of time, but it fired up the DL1608 just fine. In my high gain unbalanced ungrounded scenario, all I had was system hiss. No digital crap whatsoever. No antennae effect. So, I would contend that if we can find a high quality supply, we'll be there.
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What is your equipment? I'm currently 3000 miles from home base so I can't test anything till next week. I wouldn't use the Apple supply. Yes I bent the spade lug down for esthetics. Your other equipment could be adding noise and may need grounding.
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Thanks WK154 That's the missing link my brain needed. Thanks for being active and helping!
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I wouldn't use the Apple supply. Your other equipment could be adding noise and may need grounding.
Of course I wouldn't use the Apple supply for anything more than proof of concept. It'd burn up in no time.
The other equipment in this case is a Roland powered speaker, and it is grounded. I was going unbalanced from a Mackie aux to the speaker's highest gain input, turned up. With Mackie's supply, I had Mackie's digital hash. With the Adaptermonster supply, I had a smaller quantity of different digital hash, position sensitive. With the Apple supply, I had nothing but system hiss.
The point is that I changed absolutely nothing but the supply and all the issues went away. We just need to find the right supply.
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I don't know what your RF environment is you may need to add magnetics to the ground wire (position sensitive may be RF or EMI). For a lower ripple supply APX has medical equipment supplies but for a lot more $.
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Ferrites on hand, thx!
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I wouldn't use the Apple supply. Your other equipment could be adding noise and may need grounding.
Of course I wouldn't use the Apple supply for anything more than proof of concept. It'd burn up in no time.
The other equipment in this case is a Roland powered speaker, and it is grounded. I was going unbalanced from a Mackie aux to the speaker's highest gain input, turned up. With Mackie's supply, I had Mackie's digital hash. With the Adaptermonster supply, I had a smaller quantity of different digital hash, position sensitive. With the Apple supply, I had nothing but system hiss.
The point is that I changed absolutely nothing but the supply and all the issues went away. We just need to find the right supply.
To be sure it's not a proof of concept to overload a supply and consider the "hiss" to be a better solution. If you were getting digital hash perhaps you could record it and view it's content along with the hiss? Electrons don't change their actions because of "position" of a supply or touching the plastic case. A bad connection to the mixer yes. You referred to an unbalanced high gain device and named it a Roland powered speaker (what model # ?). I don't consider digital hash as "all the issues went away" they either did or didn't. Without measurements of output signals it means nothing. It's all about levels. You are now entering the realm of an AUDIO SYSTEM not an individual piece of gear where all the parts can contribute to the noise (cable and Roland speaker). You also stated that it radiates like crazy, that implies you have a spectrum analyzer, Faraday cage and have results to confirm this!
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I wouldn't use the Apple supply. Your other equipment could be adding noise and may need grounding.
Of course I wouldn't use the Apple supply for anything more than proof of concept. It'd burn up in no time.
The other equipment in this case is a Roland powered speaker, and it is grounded. I was going unbalanced from a Mackie aux to the speaker's highest gain input, turned up. With Mackie's supply, I had Mackie's digital hash. With the Adaptermonster supply, I had a smaller quantity of different digital hash, position sensitive. With the Apple supply, I had nothing but system hiss.
The point is that I changed absolutely nothing but the supply and all the issues went away. We just need to find the right supply.
To be sure it's not a proof of concept to overload a supply and consider the "hiss" to be a better solution. If you were getting digital hash perhaps you could record it and view it's content along with the hiss? Electrons don't change their actions because of "position" of a supply or touching the plastic case. A bad connection to the mixer yes. You referred to an unbalanced high gain device and named it a Roland powered speaker (what model # ?). I don't consider digital hash as "all the issues went away" they either did or didn't. Without measurements of output signals it means nothing. It's all about levels. You are now entering the realm of an AUDIO SYSTEM not an individual piece of gear where all the parts can contribute to the noise (cable and Roland speaker). You also stated that it radiates like crazy, that implies you have a spectrum analyzer, Faraday cage and have results to confirm this!
Sigh. I don't understand what you're fighting about.
Of course it's a proof of concept. My concept is that a better quality supply will fix our problems. It does that. It's not an operating solution, because the Apple supply would overheat.
No digital hash whatsoever with the Apple supply. With high enough gain on any audio system, you will have hiss. That's normal, and indicative of "all the issues went away."
With the adaptermonster supply, as I move the supply around, change its orientation, touch it, and in particular move it closer to the mixer, it's own digital hash changes in amplitude. Grounding the mixer directly didn't affect it. No rf meter needed, thanks, it's radiating like crazy. None of that from the ungrounded Apple supply or the grounded Mackie supply.
The model of the Roland powered speaker is MA-12C, but that makes no difference whatsoever. It was a constant in the system.
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Agreed on the Roland speakers, they're solid. I've installed and used hundreds of them for all sorts of Avid editing systems and monitoring situations over the past 20 years. I've never had a noise issue with them using any unbalanced connections except once. It was due to a so-called surge protector that had leaking MOVs dumping garbage into the ground and neutral line of the strip. Other than that, no issues.
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nottooloud:
Sigh. I don't understand what you're fighting about.
Not fighting just stating facts.
Of course it's a proof of concept. My concept is that a better quality supply will fix our problems. It does that. It's not an operating solution, because the Apple supply would overheat.
We can agree to disagree on this without going into power supply design.
No digital hash whatsoever with the Apple supply. With high enough gain on any audio system, you will have hiss. That's normal, and indicative of "all the issues went away."
We may be dealing in semantics here but white noise would be an indication that you're at the noise floor. Hiss is associated with problematic high frequency noise.
With the adaptermonster supply, as I move the supply around, change its orientation, touch it, and in particular move it closer to the mixer, it's own digital hash changes in amplitude. Grounding the mixer directly didn't affect it. No rf meter needed, thanks, it's radiating like crazy. None of that from the ungrounded Apple supply or the grounded Mackie supply.
I suggest that you check the model # and compare it with mine (see prior post). Moving it around and even laying it on top of the input section had no effect. You may have a different supply or a defective one. All I get is white noise which is slightly more than the lab supply which is certainly better than the Apple supply. Check the frequency content it may tell you a lot about the noise.
The model of the Roland powered speaker is MA-12C, but that makes no difference whatsoever. It was a constant in the system.
Always good to know the setup. It doesn't imply that they are the problem although they could be. I certainly only tested it with the C50 and 50ft. of RCA cable using Aux3.
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Yep, that part was semantics. The Apple supply gave me noise floor, and nothing else.
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Your supply is still defective if it is the correct part. Possibly a bad low voltage cable since it happens when you move it. Does it have a ferrite bead? The apple supply cannot function correctly since your overloading a chopper supply. No load control left unless it's way under specked. Once again is it the same part# that I have?
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Model: ST-C-075-12000600CT input 1.5A output 12V 4.5A/5A/6A(0-6A) big ferrite bead
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Clearly defective according to your evaluation. Mine has no such characteristics.
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I'm looking at 3A max with the router. Possible batteries only app less speakers.
Do you think the DL1608 and router will be OK with the 12.6 volts fully charged and 10.5 volts fully discharged a lead-acid battery will give it? I did think of doing that instead of using a UPS :) and float charging the battery at 13 volts but that's even more volts :( .
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At least you got a good one. As I stated the total load is around 2.3 with charging add another .35 for max phantom power and that should be it. I will add another .5 for my Netgear switch for the battery test. That should give me around 10 hrs of operation. This is a replacement for the UPS route. No point in going from AC to DC battery and back to AC and back to DC to power the DL. Trying to find some advantages to the DL1608 over others this may be it. Now for some huge solar panels for daytime gigs for speakers (just kidding). Will try to get the min/max voltage specs from Mackie.
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I've been waiting for Mackie tech support to get back to me on the DL's input voltage limits. Two phone calls and a week later with what appears to be Loud's (not Mackie anymore) only person manning the tech line (Rebecca), I got my answer. We can't tell you anything (or won't) other than what's in the manual. She claims to have checked (which took the time) with the product manager (or she's making it up as she goes along). I should check with them down the road since it is a new product and they may provide additional information. I explained to her that I've had mine since Sept. of last year and the 1 year Warranty will soon come to an end. The other paths (e-mail and tech requests are still broken for over a week by now). Does that mean will be hearing from India or Mexico soon? Nottooloud walked into the only scenario that Mackie can offer at this time called replacement. I guess that they are hoping their dealers will handle most tech issues. Sounds awful familiar were did I run across this before? Aha the Computer industry.
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RR:
Do you think the DL1608 and router will be OK with the 12.6 volts fully charged and 10.5 volts fully discharged a lead-acid battery will give it? I did think of doing that instead of using a UPS :) and float charging the battery at 13 volts but that's even more volts :( .
The DL AFAIK does not use 12V internally anywhere. It appears to be the power source for several DC to DC converters. Most converters (Boost, Flyback or Buck) have a wide voltage input range and could easily handle the 13V to 11.8V range (based on 30% battery discharge state for longer life). If not then I have a Boost 6amp converter to 12V using a 6V battery. Ripple and EMI as before would be my main concern. Will test this setup soon.
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Yah, I'd not expect they would give out an input voltage spec as they want you using their supply.
BTW I did a gig Saturday night entirely on the 3 amp supply I bought for $9 from http://www.ebay.com/itm/200772780778 - worked great !
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Now for some huge solar panels for daytime gigs for speakers (just kidding).
There's a guy over here in Blighty running a mobile solar stage http://www.mobilesolarstage.co.uk/home.html we've worked with him and run our HK Projector rig, several JBL PRX512Ms and backline along with his LED lighting rig entirely solar powered 8)
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Very impressive and creative but probably a bit much for bar gigs. I've used Anchor and equivalents but usually they run out of battery in about 2 hrs (depending on the volume). For outdoors I will stick with Honda generators for now (very quiet).
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Yah, I'd not expect they would give out an input voltage spec as they want you using their supply.
BTW I did a gig Saturday night entirely on the 3 amp supply I bought for $9 from http://www.ebay.com/itm/200772780778 - worked great !
Does this solve the Pin One Problem on the DL1608?
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Does this solve the Pin One Problem on the DL1608?
Damned if I know - I don't run any unbalanced outputs and have not noticed any problems with unbalanced inputs (pair of stereo keys on the same power outlet as the mixer).