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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: nottooloud on October 28, 2013, 12:30:39 AM

Title: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 28, 2013, 12:30:39 AM
DL1608 with a docked version 1 iPad. Intermittently resyncs. Sometimes even fails to do that, and sits there with no meters. Flip back to the settings page and it displays "getting name" in the connected mixer slot. iPad mini running the mixer via wifi never drops. Interestingly, I have been recording when this has happened, and the recordings appear to be fine. No data missing. I have no way to tell if the problem is the mixer or the ipad.

Anybody else seen this happen?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2013, 04:57:09 AM
Yes I think the sync loss and re-sync code has had problems since day one and it still hasn't been resolved. ;D
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on October 28, 2013, 11:40:10 AM
Really shouldn't be that hard to add a line of code checking to see if it's still linked. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 28, 2013, 01:54:30 PM
Yes I think the sync loss and re-sync code has had problems since day one and it still hasn't been resolved. ;D

You're also seeing an ipad lose sync while docked in a DL1608?

It didn't happen at all until recently, and now it happens a lot. I was assuming it was a hardware issue. I have certainly beat the snot out of this poor old ipad.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2013, 05:23:20 PM
My iPad is a 3 and I don't know how Mackie implemented Sync determination other than poorly. If data is coming over the pseudo USB lines and surviving the sync disconnect then there is an obvious problem. I can make it fail with<90% charge on the ipad on a 1M cable. Large charging current disrupts the frail USB lines or whatever other way they have of determining Sync. This problem existed since day 1. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 28, 2013, 05:33:31 PM
My iPad is a 3 and I don't know how Mackie implemented Sync determination other than poorly. If data is coming over the pseudo USB lines and surviving the sync disconnect then there is an obvious problem. I can make it fail with<90% charge on the ipad. Large charging current disrupts the frail USB lines or whatever other way they have of determining Sync. This problem existed since day 1.

Always has a full charge, doesn't get undocked, so that's probably not it. Airplane mode makes no difference, for whatever that's worth.

You say you can make it fail? How? I would love to reproduce it at will, give us a chance to solve it.

Is anyone else seeing this? It's complete loss of mixer control. I would think people would be screaming if it was at all common. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Oddeotek on October 28, 2013, 07:03:19 PM
Same thing happening to me. I have a 1st generation iPad docked and am using the iPad mini wirelessly. The docked iPad frequently unlocks and when I try to manually connect it says "looking for device name". Neither of the iPads will charge anymore while docked. This just started happening since the last update. The wireless iPad mini using an Apple Express has been very solid.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2013, 08:06:19 PM
Read all about it! This leads to failure with a cable (3ft.) and low battery.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=222.0
Great forum if you can read.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 29, 2013, 01:05:04 AM
Read all about it! This leads to failure with a cable (3ft.) and low battery.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=222.0
Great forum if you can read.

I have failure with no extension cable and a full battery.

Thanks, though. It's true that I have not read every message in the entire forum, and I am duly ashamed.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on October 29, 2013, 01:23:55 AM
No need to read all posts just do a search on your problem.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 29, 2013, 01:53:45 AM
No need to read all posts just do a search on your problem.

[sarcasm] Gosh, why ever didn't I think of that? [/sarcasm]

I searched on dock, loses sync, looking for device name, and everything else I could think of. Oddly enough, I didn't find a thread about extension cables which refers to none of those, and probably doesn't actually relate to my problem. But really, thanks for your help.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: robbocurry on October 29, 2013, 12:51:44 PM
I've had the problem too with my iPad 1, but only since the last update.
I would say that my iPad 1 is less likely to freeze and is generally more responsive when undocked.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Guitarplace on October 29, 2013, 03:51:15 PM
Hey,
Iīve got the same Problem,
iPad II looses sync, started happening since the last update

hope they will fix it soon  :( :(
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 29, 2013, 10:27:46 PM
Mackie support says this:

Quote
Try reinstalling the DL1608 Firmware to see if that helps.

Here are the steps to re-flash the units as there was a bit of a bug with brand new units and flashing with 1.4.

To re-flash the firmware please follow the next steps.
To do so, follow the steps below:

1.  Power off the DL1608
2. Place your iPad in the dock and open the master fader 3. With a paper clip or ball point pen, press and hold the recessed switch found between the power and Ethernet jack.
4. While holding the recessed switch, power on the DL1608, then release after 5 seconds.
5. The master fader will ask to update.  Select "yes, update."
Upon doing so, the Master Fader app will reprogram the mixer.  It's important that you do nothing to the iPad or mixer until it completes the process as not to be interrupted. Please do not touch anything for about 20 seconds after the window disappears.

Well, gotta start someplace.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on October 30, 2013, 03:07:19 AM
Yah, reinstalling the firmware didn't change anything. No great surprise.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 01, 2013, 06:24:23 PM
I reverted Master Fader to 1.4.1, used Mackie's technique to force the firmware update (downgrade), and it's been operating fine for 16 hours at this point. I will allow it to run for the next several days.

My test procedure is to close all programs, reboot the iPad, dock it in the DL1608, turn on the DL1608, open Master Fader, switch to Music, play all songs on repeat, switch back to Master Fader, and scroll so I can see the iPad channel meters. I can't guarantee that it hasn't lost sync and recovered while running 1.4.1, since I'm not watching it nonstop. However, under 1.4.3 it never went more than a couple of hours before losing sync and not recovering.

Be aware that if you revert Master Fader, you'll lose all of your presets and everything.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 12, 2013, 01:24:41 AM
Master Fader version 2, still losing sync. Hasn't dropped it completely yet, but it's only been a couple of hours. 1.4.3 generally locked up in a few hours, never ran much more than a day. I went back to 1.4.1 and it ran for a week without apparent issue.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Guitarplace on November 13, 2013, 11:48:06 AM
Master Fader version 2, still losing sync, :facepalm:
Oh no, not again, they should fix it soon
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: iamdunker on November 15, 2013, 04:33:35 AM
I have the same problem.  Ipad2 will de-sync while docked.  Only happened since last update.  Hopefully 2.0 will fix it.  I'll check back later.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 15, 2013, 04:41:54 AM
2.0 didn't fix it for me. Mackie tech I've been talking to hadn't seen this before I started talking to him, and that was only a couple of weeks ago. 2.0 is too good to go back to 1.4.1, the last one that works, so I'm going to start recording to my phone and use both pads on wifi.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 21, 2013, 04:27:52 PM
I got an Apple Lightning adapter, and tried my iPad Mini on the DL1608. It also loses sync, so I think we can eliminate a hardware issue in the specific iPad as a factor.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on November 21, 2013, 06:18:46 PM
Just like Mackie denies any pin 1 problem this is just another example of their service/engineering. The other thread I believe is the same problem  http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=486.0
I have not had the problem upgraded to V1.4.3 but haven't had time for an extensive test. After my trip to wine country (1 week) I will test the theory that possibly ESD or other noise on the ground line is causing the problem. I am not using the Mackie power supply and that may be the reason I haven't any problem. Feel free to beat me to the test if you have a hummer or a spark generator (grill lighter without lighter fluid or not  ;D) on safety ground. You could borrow your wife's tazer.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 21, 2013, 06:33:11 PM
I am not using the Mackie power supply and that may be the reason I haven't any problem.

Nor am I. I'm using the medical power supply that I referenced in the pin1 thread.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on November 21, 2013, 06:37:18 PM
If that's the case then Mackie needs to sharpen their coding pens. Saves me a lot of test time. I consider the iPad record and playback function broken anyway. Without being able to play back using MF it's broken in my book.  :)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on November 22, 2013, 07:06:53 AM
I finally bit the bullet and updated to iOS 7.0.4 and V2.0 MF. I needed it for other reasons. I pounded on it with both the original PWRS and a Lab supply applying a hummer to try to break it without results (8hrs worth). Looks like iOS v7.0.4 may have fixed some bugs including this one. Try it and see if it fixes your dropout problem. Ran the standard music player (since everyone has it and didn't want to complicate matters with another music player). Switching back and forth with a playlist and MF. Worked without a hitch. Power cycled the DL and iPad several times. iPad 3 on one meter cable. The eq/mute registration problem is still there. Way to go Mackie!! :lol:
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 22, 2013, 02:00:10 PM
Looks like iOS v7.0.4 may have fixed some bugs including this one.

My Mini's already on 7.04. My original iPad doesn't have that option. Both lose sync. I'm guessing one factor is parts tolerance in the mixers, since only some people see it. That's not the whole story, though, because 1.4.1 is rock solid.

I think it's possible that this problem is more common than people think. If you're not looking at it when it resyncs and recovers, you'd have no way to know it happened. It's pretty quick. It only becomes obvious when it doesn't recover. My next troubleshooting strategy is motion sensing video to document how often it happens.

For now I'm going to dock an iPod for recording and playback, and run both iPads on wifi.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on November 22, 2013, 04:36:46 PM
Looks like iOS v7.0.4 may have fixed some bugs including this one.

My Mini's already on 7.04. My original iPad doesn't have that option. Both lose sync. I'm guessing one factor is parts tolerance in the mixers, since only some people see it. That's not the whole story, though, because 1.4.1 is rock solid.

I think it's possible that this problem is more common than people think. If you're not looking at it when it resyncs and recovers, you'd have no way to know it happened. It's pretty quick. It only becomes obvious when it doesn't recover. My next troubleshooting strategy is motion sensing video to document how often it happens.

For now I'm going to dock an iPod for recording and playback, and run both iPads on wifi.
Looking back on your history your not having much luck. Replaced the DL, a bad power supply and now this, I'm inclined to go with RR's exorcisms. I would have picked up on any dropped sync in my tests. I was listening to background music and during transitions I was right there.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 22, 2013, 04:42:49 PM
I would have picked up on any dropped sync in my tests. I was listening to background music and during transitions I was right there.

It continues to pass audio both directions when it loses sync.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: diggo on November 24, 2013, 06:23:52 AM
For those using a docked iPad1, this problem seems to have become much worse than with MF 1.5.

I have iPad1 permanently docked, mostly for break music. I use an iPad2 to mix, partly because the display is faster (meters etc) and I also run Studio Six AudioTools with Smaart on the iPad2.

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: abzurd on November 27, 2013, 09:14:00 PM
Looks like iOS v7.0.4 may have fixed some bugs including this one.

My Mini's already on 7.04. My original iPad doesn't have that option. Both lose sync. I'm guessing one factor is parts tolerance in the mixers, since only some people see it. That's not the whole story, though, because 1.4.1 is rock solid.

I think it's possible that this problem is more common than people think. If you're not looking at it when it resyncs and recovers, you'd have no way to know it happened. It's pretty quick. It only becomes obvious when it doesn't recover. My next troubleshooting strategy is motion sensing video to document how often it happens.

For now I'm going to dock an iPod for recording and playback, and run both iPads on wifi.


I agree with you that this is probably happening a lot more than being reported. I caught my original ipad losing sync once in each of the last 2 shows as the "syncing" dialog box popped up for a second which means it lost sync somewhere. I have no idea how long it does it for, but I'm guessing it's only losing sync for a moment. It's not an IOS7 problem because the original ipad is capped at IOS5.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on November 27, 2013, 11:15:19 PM
For those using a docked iPad1, this problem seems to have become much worse than with MF 1.5.

I have iPad1 permanently docked, mostly for break music. I use an iPad2 to mix, partly because the display is faster (meters etc) and I also run Studio Six AudioTools with Smaart on the iPad2.

Diggo - does Smaart actually run on the Ipad itself? or does it actually run on a computer and is displayed on the ipad?

Cheers
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: diggo on November 28, 2013, 04:14:15 AM
It runs on the iPad as an inapp purchase for StudioSix AudioTools
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on November 28, 2013, 04:45:01 AM
Gee that's fabulous then - i wouldn't have thought and ipad would have the grunt to do it.

Must check it out. Thanks.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on November 28, 2013, 04:47:23 AM
Just looked.  It's a $50 addon.  The standard RTA app probably will do everything I need.  (Though I own DOD RTA unit.) 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on November 28, 2013, 06:25:39 AM
Yeah I just bought the basic audio tools and am pondering whether to spend the extra $50 on the smart module.

Nice app though!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: walterw on November 29, 2013, 01:22:40 AM
doesn't SMAART really need two mics, or a mic and a PA line, to do its job?

i have the more basic studio six stuff like FFT; running that on my iphone while the ipad is used to mix is useful, as any feedback freq's get identified by the phone.

anyway, i just did my first show post-ios7/post-2.0, and it worked flawlessly! i hooked my ipad 3 into the mixer with the 2' cablejive, and it synced up just fine. (it even completed the firmware update through the cable!)

i was having weird sync/charge issues before, but i followed the tip i got here to top off the ipad to 100% ahead of time, so the battery charging wouldn't cause excess line noise down the cable.

it also stayed perfectly linked with our POS 2.4G belkin router when i yanked it off the cable to walk the room.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 29, 2013, 02:20:09 AM
doesn't SMAART really need two mics, or a mic and a PA line, to do its job?

Studio Six only ported SMAART's Spectrum module, which only needs a single input. Rational's Transfer module code turned out not to be portable enough, so they rolled their own Transfer Function. It does, indeed, need two inputs. They sell hardware, too. Their SMAART Transfer module is great as inshow eye candy. I haven't bought their Transfer Function, as I already own SMAART 5 and SMAART 7.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 06, 2013, 07:28:20 PM
Back to the original post ... I am running two iPad 2s, one docked and one wireless, and an iPhone 4 MyFader.    With MF2.0 the docked iPad dropped the sync about once an hour on average.   I sit with the DL for recording headphones so I notice it.  But I keep the wireless iPad in my hands for controls.

The docked iPad loses sync periodically, and the wireless iPad and iPhone do not.

The docked iPad is recording ... so I don't know if a non-recording iPad will lose sync.

I've only noticed this is with MF 2.0.   I never noticed this with MF 1.x.

Thanks.  John
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on December 06, 2013, 11:02:13 PM
The docked iPad is recording ... so I don't know if a non-recording iPad will lose sync.

Yep. Not recording, dropped sync several times in the last hour.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 06, 2013, 11:48:48 PM
After it drops sync does it reconnect or do you have to intervene? I've had mine running for about 23hrs. and off course it won't fail. Failed twice before in less than 6hrs. This test is on playback with no other communication (Ethernet) but with some load on the DSP. My indicator is battery charge, I'm not about to stare at it for any period of time. I'm about to propose an exorcism solution for the DL.
1. Threaten to sell it.
2. Put it under serious test mode. Of course this is what you bought it for.  ;D
3. In case it doesn't fix the problem proceed to checkout and sell the D... thing.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 06, 2013, 11:53:27 PM
In my experience it reconnects immediately.  And so far it hasn't interrupted board operation or the recording to the iPad.  So it just seems to be the connection to the Master Fader UI app.   

Still, it's a bit scary to have that happen to you at all. 

For this gig I don't use the control surface on the docked iPad since I have my wireless iPad in hand ... but if I did it would be very disruptive.  For the next gig I will be using the docked iPad for controls.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on December 07, 2013, 01:58:41 AM
After it drops sync does it reconnect or do you have to intervene?

Typical event is seconds long, auto-reconnects, doesn't interrupt audio. Eventually, though, it drops and doesn't come back. Sometimes takes days. Under test, though, I'm not having much luck. I set up an old iphone with a motion detection video app, and didn't catch anything in 2 days.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 07, 2013, 04:13:26 AM
I had two of the "doesn't come back" events but now it's being stubborn. I believe that the 30 pin cable issue a while back may be at the root of this problem. It showed that the signal lines are marginal at best and shows up more frequently by adding a cable. Since Mackie is so generous with any technical details about this mixer  >:D I can only guess. There are both USB like paths and a serial connection between the DL and the iPad. I suspect that all the commands are over the serial line and the data is going over the USB connection. This would explain Music playing but sync is lost and then restored without interrupting the USB Data stream. So my question is what is the sync function really for and how is it detected? Looks like the detection procedure needs to be scrutinized. Mackie send me the code!  ;D My standard rates apply.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 07, 2013, 05:43:25 PM
I thought it might have had to do with the code refactoring they claim they did in MF 1.4 ... but that release didn't have a problem for me.  It's only 2.0 where I've seen this ... :|

I guess all we can do is voice our concerns loudly and clearly and assume Mackie is monitoring the forums.  They don't provide us with much direct feedback, but they have put features in the product releases based on what's been posted in these forums.  That at least is encouraging.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on December 08, 2013, 07:37:18 AM
I've got to stop reading the posts here. I was thinking how lucky I was that my DL1608 hasn't missed a beat. Then, last night I started getting disconnects for the first time.

It happened when I was playing backing music from the iPad - Once the band starts I usually go to the music app and stop the track playing but last night I forgot and sure enough the docked iPad lost its sync. Happened at least three times and one time took a bit of fiddling around to get it to reconnect.

My second iPad, connected wirelessly, never had a problem.

Bugger!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 09, 2013, 01:53:09 AM
After 40+hrs of running without a hitch I came to the conclusion that some stimulus is needed for this disconnect to happen. I finally found a way to get it's goat. I went back to the procedure that occasionally caused me problems. Power on DL then power on the iPad or plug it in. This produced the no-charge, not synced problem, no devise found problem consistently. No amount of restarting MF would change that. You guessed it power cycling the DL fixed the problem. You mileage may vary but this is what mine does consistently. This was done with a 100% charged iPad 3. No Network was connected to complicate things. This action preceded V2 and iOS 7. Clearly a DL sync code issue. Mackie FIX it!!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on December 09, 2013, 03:00:06 AM
After 40+hrs of running without a hitch I came to the conclusion that some stimulus is needed for this disconnect to happen. I finally found a way to get it's goat. I went back to the procedure that occasionally caused me problems. Power on DL then power on the iPad or plug it in. This produced the no-charge, not synced problem, no devise found problem consistently. No amount of restarting MF would change that. You guessed it power cycling the DL fixed the problem. You mileage may vary but this is what mine does consistently. This was done with a 100% charged iPad 3. No Network was connected to complicate things. This action preceded V2 and iOS 7. Clearly a DL sync code issue. Mackie FIX it!!

Does power cycling the DL mean turning it on and off? Not easy to do in the middle of a show  :(
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 09, 2013, 03:08:43 AM
It sure does, hence my statement that this mixer is not usable in live performances unless your willing to chance it. You can however run it wireless without iPad functionality in playback. No one has ever had it lock up AFAIK. You just have to make sure your wireless is solid. I should clarify this WiFi without interference.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 09, 2013, 03:59:33 AM
Maybe I should clarify my sync-loss experience a bit more --

I never dock or undock my iPads during the show. 

The docked iPad stays docked and records the whole thing.  I don't run anything but MF.  I get periodic drop-and-resync during this time. 

The wireless iPad stays on wifi, and I just have to make sure I have enough battery juice the last the 2-3 hours.

If undocking and re-docking an iPad causes more problems, I'll be sure to avoid doing that now ;)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 09, 2013, 05:37:33 PM
  For the next gig I will be using the docked iPad for controls.
Feeling lucky? I would have a backup plan in place for this gig.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 09, 2013, 07:47:06 PM
  For the next gig I will be using the docked iPad for controls.
Feeling lucky? I would have a backup plan in place for this gig.

Oh ... and we will still have two wireless iPads in our hands for this one.  I just meant that we will be doing some fader work on the docked iPad for convenience, which means if it resyncs on us it will mean a small disruption for us to have to scroll one of the other iPad fader banks to pick up the control.

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 09, 2013, 09:14:28 PM
Good plan. Looking back at my usage of the DL on gigs I never used it docked and I never used the iPad for background/accompaniment playback. Certainly never for recording. That's why I never encountered the problems. That's called dumb luck.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Harpman on December 14, 2013, 06:50:44 PM
I too had this happen last night at rehearsal.  Also get the message "application not supported".  I just shut everything down (console and iPad) and brought them all back up (console first, then iPad). Redocked iPad and sync worked.  This is clearly a bug in MF 2.0 or compatibly issue with IOS 7.  Either way, Mackie needs to fix this!!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 14, 2013, 08:08:24 PM
Let me recommend a turn on sequence that has turned out to deal with most of the problems. 1st the router/ap then the iPad and lastly the DL.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Harpman on December 14, 2013, 09:04:52 PM
Let me recommend a turn on sequence that has turned out to deal with most of the problems. 1st the router/ap then the iPad and lastly the DL.

 :thu: Definitely would agree with this since DL gets it's IP address from the router/ap.  Wasn't using the router (airport express) last night.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 14, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Ever wonder why the network connection seems to be reliable and the wired isn't? My take is strait forward. Neither Mackie the Fruit or M$ wrote the SW. All from FreeBSD and Linux on the TCP/IP stack. Here's an outfit that has tracked the Internet literally since day one and the results speak volumes.
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/09/05/september-2013-web-server-survey.html
The reason that Jobs picked FreeBSD is that he didn't have to publish any changes or improvements with the FreeBSD license. It was use it at will commercially and he did.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on December 15, 2013, 04:45:36 PM
Are you suggesting that ios 7 is FreeBSD or Linux?  I honestly don't know, but they don't feel like it.  If they were using either, I would expect a more Aqua feel to them and that's not there.  Now OS-X is clearly based on FreeBSD.  (Personally, I was hoping that Apple was going to buy BeOS as the base for OS-X but that didn't happen.  BeOS was the first OS to take two running programs and allow you to smash them together on the fly.  They did that in 1995.  OS-X was the second and that occurred in 2002(?)  They were a full computer generation ahead of anyone else.)   Well you got my curiosity up and I'm going to spend a little time and see what's under the hood of an ipad/iphone. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: diggo on December 15, 2013, 04:50:33 PM
This problem is now officially driving me nuts.  >:(

iPad1, iPad2. Since the 2.0 upgrade, both lose sync repeatedly when docked. No other apps running. As a result I've completely abandoned using break music from the docked iPad. And it really annoys me when sync disappears right while I'm making quick adjustments between songs.

It really seems like whoever did 2.0 broke docked sync badly.

To add insult to injury, at a gig tonight the wifi wouldnt connect at all, despite the network connecting successfully and giving out IP address etc to the iPad.
The Master Fader config panel sees the device but message just says "Not connected".
Seems like somethings gone wrong with the RJ45 socket, either in the Airport Express or the DL1608. I tried 3 different network cables.
Like others here, I usually dont have problems with wifi syncing and always run the DL1608 and Airport Express from a good UPS. I take good care of my gear and it isnt used by others.

For now, I'm assuming the wifi problem isnt serious. Testing everything in my studio tomorrow to determine which bit is misbehaving.




Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: diggo on December 15, 2013, 04:57:09 PM
BeOS was the first OS to take two running programs and allow you to smash them together on the fly.

The BeOS saga was very sad and very frustrating for those who knew what BeOS offered digital audio applications. It was the great hope for real time multimedia and was the most promising real time OS since the Amiga.

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on December 15, 2013, 05:29:13 PM
Very true.  My Brother said that his computer broke and apparently he had been running it for about 8 years without even a hiccup.  It was an Amiga.  There isn't a windows user out there that can say the same.  (Or a Mac user either, though they have half as many software glitches that MS.)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 15, 2013, 06:10:33 PM
Are you suggesting that ios 7 is FreeBSD or Linux?  I honestly don't know, but they don't feel like it.  If they were using either, I would expect a more Aqua feel to them and that's not there.  Now OS-X is clearly based on FreeBSD.  (Personally, I was hoping that Apple was going to buy BeOS as the base for OS-X but that didn't happen.  BeOS was the first OS to take two running programs and allow you to smash them together on the fly.  They did that in 1995.  OS-X was the second and that occurred in 2002(?)  They were a full computer generation ahead of anyone else.)   Well you got my curiosity up and I'm going to spend a little time and see what's under the hood of an ipad/iphone.
We know and Fruit acknowledged that OS-X core was FreeBsd (circa V4.4) with their contribution being the GUI layer (Aqua). Definitely not Linux since they would have to publish the code. iOS on the other hand could have been from the Os9 group. It's about that level with some input from FreeBsd. After all were talking about FB (foreground/background multitasking a 1970's technology DEC RT-11FB) really advanced.  :lol:  RSX-11M, Amiga and BeOS way too advanced. I would hope that both OS-X and iOS have progressed somewhat since it's roots. iOS7 sports a new GUI and some improvement in multitasking but apparently Core Audio took a hit in that effort and needs work. Up's I think they call those new features. We used to laugh about OS9's crash task that used to wake up and run about every 3-4 hrs.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on December 15, 2013, 11:24:23 PM
To add insult to injury, at a gig tonight the wifi wouldnt connect at all, despite the network connecting successfully and giving out IP address etc to the iPad.
The Master Fader config panel sees the device but message just says "Not connected".
Seems like somethings gone wrong with the RJ45 socket, either in the Airport Express or the DL1608. I tried 3 different network cables.
Like others here, I usually dont have problems with wifi syncing and always run the DL1608 and Airport Express from a good UPS. I take good care of my gear and it isnt used by others.

For now, I'm assuming the wifi problem isnt serious. Testing everything in my studio tomorrow to determine which bit is misbehaving.

Your wifi issue sounds like what I see when the router wasn't fully booted before the Mackie.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on December 16, 2013, 03:46:30 PM
I've noticed that the ipad will try to hook up to the strongest signal, no matter where it's from.  I usually have to go in and redirect the wifi to "NoInternetHere 5G".  I've also noticed that it's easier to allow the mixer to comeup first and connect while docked, then load a specific show.  Just my take.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on December 16, 2013, 10:01:21 PM
I've noticed that the ipad will try to hook up to the strongest signal, no matter where it's from.
Only if you arfed up ;) :
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=193.0
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: abzurd on December 17, 2013, 12:56:17 AM
I had a gig on Saturday where my ipad wouldn't stay connected to wifi and my newest ipad (3rd gen) wouldn't even dock to the thing. I was left with my 1st gen ipad docked and losing sync during the show. Bottom line,  since the last update of Master Fader there are problems every show.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on December 17, 2013, 03:10:29 AM
I had a gig on Saturday where my ipad wouldn't stay connected to wifi and my newest ipad (3rd gen) wouldn't even dock to the thing. I was left with my 1st gen ipad docked and losing sync during the show. Bottom line,  since the last update of Master Fader there are problems every show.

That's a bummer Abzurd. Mine is more intermittent and noticably worse if I forget to stop the break music playing before starting a set.

I had no issues at two gigs last weekend but nothing but trouble the gig bofore that.

Sure hope Mackie get this sorted soon!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: PeterKorg on December 18, 2013, 06:12:31 PM
Two gigs on the bounce Friday and Saturday, no such issues for me, you have me worried though, another two gigs this weekend my fingers are now crossed.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on December 19, 2013, 12:56:06 AM
Peter,

I hadn't really noticed the problem until recently but I suspect its been there for a while. I mix using the wifi connected ipad so only really pay attention to the docked ipad during breaks.

So the problem is a pain but not a show stopper unless you mix on the docked ipad and don't use wireless at all.

Cheers
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 19, 2013, 07:07:14 AM
I would still have a contingency plan for power cycling your system with minimal disruption. Power down without destroying equipment or someones hearing. Remember the preferred power on sequence for quick recovery is AP(Switch) first then iPad both code bases are well tested and lastly the DL with not so good a code base. You do need to wait for each kit to power up completely between steps. If at all possible run everything on the 5 Gb bands.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on December 19, 2013, 02:14:27 PM
When it locks up, I've never needed to power cycle it. Just pull the ipad and redock it. Doesn't interrupt anything but recording and playback.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 19, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
Other users have had different results including myself so YMMV. Best to be ready for the worst and hope nothing happens.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on January 01, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Well, that's new. Got an error message on Sunday.

Disconnection Notice
An unexpected and unrecoverable error occurred during the execution of an app state machine. Please reconnect and resync.
Dismiss

I just wiped the iPad today, starting over clean.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Harpman on January 02, 2014, 08:02:51 AM
I would still have a contingency plan for power cycling your system with minimal disruption. Power down without destroying equipment or someones hearing. Remember the preferred power on sequence for quick recovery is AP(Switch) first then iPad both code bases are well tested and lastly the DL with not so good a code base. You do need to wait for each kit to power up completely between steps.
Quote
If at all possible run everything on the 5 Gb bands.

I would agree.  Especially if you are running any wireless mics on the 2.4 GHz range.  Should have purchased the Shure BLX instead of the GLX.  Well, a day late and a dollar short...

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2014, 09:00:57 AM
How about trading it for a SLX ? When did you pick this up? Are mics in the non-returnable category?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on January 02, 2014, 03:44:22 PM
I just wiped the iPad today, starting over clean.

Did that help?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on January 02, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
I just wiped the iPad today, starting over clean.

Did that help?

Made no difference at all. And of course it was a 64 gig, crammed full of os-obsoleted versions of software, so iTunes can't just restore it.

Sigh.

Everything's still fine via wifi, or I'd be pretty pissed. There's also nothing yet that can touch it for the combination of size, features, and price, so I'll keep on poking Mackie to fix it.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on January 02, 2014, 05:20:07 PM
Too bad behringer's holding their x32 rack price point at 1500 .. If they dropped it a few hundred I bet they would consume this market pretty quickly.

When I fly, the Mackie doesn't go in checked baggage. It doesn't even go in my carry-on. It goes in my personal, that thing you can bring in addition to a carry-on. At 15 lbs, the Behringer is basically a 3 space empty box, but it's still big enough that I'd need to check it. That'd cost me $100 a trip. And I wouldn't be placing any bets on Behringer gear surviving TSA and baggage handlers.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2014, 09:12:20 PM
Too bad behringer's holding their x32 rack price point at 1500 .. If they dropped it a few hundred I bet they would consume this market pretty quickly.

When I fly, the Mackie doesn't go in checked baggage. It doesn't even go in my carry-on. It goes in my personal, that thing you can bring in addition to a carry-on. At 15 lbs, the Behringer is basically a 3 space empty box, but it's still big enough that I'd need to check it. That'd cost me $100 a trip. And I wouldn't be placing any bets on Behringer gear surviving TSA and baggage handlers.
Even the most limiting airlines have a handbag allowance that would accommodate a rack in a soft carrying case (36" l+w+h). The carry-on is 45". You would remove the rack ears anyway for other reasons but even with them on it would be allowed. Last I checked the round trip check-in was $50 ($25 each way extra $2 for curbside out of LAX). So your good to go anyways.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on January 02, 2014, 09:16:04 PM
Too bad behringer's holding their x32 rack price point at 1500 .. If they dropped it a few hundred I bet they would consume this market pretty quickly.

When I fly, the Mackie doesn't go in checked baggage. It doesn't even go in my carry-on. It goes in my personal, that thing you can bring in addition to a carry-on. At 15 lbs, the Behringer is basically a 3 space empty box, but it's still big enough that I'd need to check it. That'd cost me $100 a trip. And I wouldn't be placing any bets on Behringer gear surviving TSA and baggage handlers.
Even the most limiting airlines have a handbag allowance that would accommodate a rack in a soft carrying case (36" l+w+h). The carry-on is 45". You would remove the rack ears anyway for other reasons but even with them on it would be allowed. Last I checked the round trip check-in was $50 ($25 each way extra $2 for curbside out of LAX). So your good to go anyways.

how do you send the rest of your equipment?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on January 02, 2014, 09:19:56 PM
Too bad behringer's holding their x32 rack price point at 1500 .. If they dropped it a few hundred I bet they would consume this market pretty quickly.

When I fly, the Mackie doesn't go in checked baggage. It doesn't even go in my carry-on. It goes in my personal, that thing you can bring in addition to a carry-on. At 15 lbs, the Behringer is basically a 3 space empty box, but it's still big enough that I'd need to check it. That'd cost me $100 a trip. And I wouldn't be placing any bets on Behringer gear surviving TSA and baggage handlers.
Even the most limiting airlines have a handbag allowance that would accommodate a rack in a soft carrying case (36" l+w+h). The carry-on is 45". You would remove the rack ears anyway for other reasons but even with them on it would be allowed. Last I checked the round trip check-in was $50 ($25 each way extra $2 for curbside out of LAX). So your good to go anyways.

My carryon holds my computers and mics. Baggage fees vary between airlines. I typically fly Southwest in the states, and am always at my baggage allowance. Additional bags had always been $50. Now that I check, though, I see they've gone to $75. So that would be $150, not $100. Thanks, as always, for your unrequested input.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on January 02, 2014, 09:32:46 PM
how do you send the rest of your equipment?

One of my frequent gigs is to run sound on chartered 1940's Pullman train cars. For most of my fly dates last year and next year, I am actually carrying the entire PA except the speaker stands. We fly Southwest, where you get two bags free. I travel with other people, and clothes pack with the gear, so I've got from four to six 50lb 62" spaces, depending on which train I'm working on. I have speaker stands stashed in Chicago and LA, where the trains leave from.

http://www.flyingunderradar.com/2014-trips-dave-alvins-west-of-the-west-grand-circle
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on January 02, 2014, 11:34:09 PM
Nottooloud:  Thanks, as always, for your unrequested input.
You're welcome. Your simple solution is not to post. Mine is even simpler, ignore your posts.  :)
Happy New Year!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on January 03, 2014, 01:34:04 AM
If I had the extra revenue, I'd love to take that trip.  My Sister has been threatening to come west by train.  I shoot her your link.  (She's a High School teacher so there are limits to her schedule.) 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on January 03, 2014, 03:34:35 AM
Your simple solution is not to post.

Solution to what? My mixer losing sync? I don't think so.

Your posts certainly aren't a thing that needs a solution. I thanked you for that one, as I have before, even though it was irrelevant and incorrect. You make me laugh, and I enjoy that.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on February 20, 2014, 01:06:19 AM
I finally had it drop sync over wifi last week, both iPads at once, unrecoverable. Had a presentation show running, multiple A/V sources and various people handing wireless mics around. No opportunity to reboot. Grit my teeth and mix from the gain pots.

I've come to the conclusion it's a mixer hardware issue. Going back for service. We'll see.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on February 20, 2014, 03:16:17 AM
You're probably right about it being a mixer/hardware issue, but how is the power where you were?  Good power and a surge suppressor seem a minimum.  A surge could knock the ipad connections down.  (At least that seems a bit likely.)  Power tends to be better in metropolitan areas.  Rural areas are going to be less consistent. But you are probably right about it being the mixer itself. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on February 20, 2014, 03:29:18 AM
I haven't been using the UPS I bought but if I was seeing problems like those I'd try that first before blaming the mixer - digital mixers can be pretty susceptible to power issues.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on February 20, 2014, 04:09:53 AM
You are making me consider adding a UPS to my mixing stack.  (Contains the DL1608, 2xDriveRack PXs and a DriveRack PA.  Most can take advantage of a UPS.)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: diggo on February 20, 2014, 07:57:49 AM
I haven't been using the UPS I bought but if I was seeing problems like those I'd try that first before blaming the mixer - digital mixers can be pretty susceptible to power issues.

My DL has never been connected to a power source which is NOT a UPS. Treated with kid gloves from new. I still encounter the sync issue, despite resetting the mixer, cleaning connectors with Deoxit, changing cables and anything else I could think of. I use iPad2 and iPad1. Seems to affect the iPad1 more often than the iPad2, but both are affected.

Havent tried 2.1 yet as I'm in the middle of a conference...

 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on February 20, 2014, 04:20:17 PM
I haven't been using the UPS I bought but if I was seeing problems like those I'd try that first before blaming the mixer - digital mixers can be pretty susceptible to power issues.
My DL has never been connected to a power source which is NOT a UPS. Treated with kid gloves from new. I still encounter the sync issue, despite resetting the mixer, cleaning connectors with Deoxit, changing cables and anything else I could think of. I use iPad2 and iPad1. Seems to affect the iPad1 more often than the iPad2, but both are affected. Havent tried 2.1 yet as I'm in the middle of a conference...
Try this first after loading V2.1 http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=486.msg5302#msg5302 .
Too many threads on the same subject.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: mmurphy on March 10, 2014, 12:55:46 PM
I've had my DL1608 of about 2 months. Reasonably problem free but I too have had sync problems since I installed the latest Myfader 2.1 and firmware update. I, like many, thought it was my old iPad 1 but it does look more and more like a sync problem. Ironic, my friend bought the Behringer X32 around the same time and I warned him about the quality of that product line from personal experience. His works great..........

I gig with this rig at least 3 times/month and cannot afford to mess around with gear. I really hope there is a fix for this soon.

Mike
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: mmurphy on March 12, 2014, 05:31:01 PM
I wrote to Mackie and got a reply the next day!
They suggested another Myfader update to 2.1.1
Done.
It does appear to be solved but I have noticed an important order of startup.
This has worked everytime I've tried it so far.
Leave mixer off.
Do not connect wifi.
Turn on iPad and open Myfader app
Then turn on mixer.
Finally, connect wifi if you are using it.
Yay!

Mike
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on March 12, 2014, 10:13:24 PM
Wow that's interesting. Its the opposite order of start up that I use.

I'll give it a try.

Cheers
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on March 12, 2014, 11:22:50 PM
I wrote to Mackie and got a reply the next day!
They suggested another Myfader update to 2.1.1
Done.
It does appear to be solved but I have noticed an important order of startup.
This has worked everytime I've tried it so far.
Leave mixer off.
Do not connect wifi.
Turn on iPad and open Myfader app
Then turn on mixer.
Finally, connect wifi if you are using it.
Yay!

Mike

I trust you meant to say Master Fader instead of Myfader. Myfader has limited control over the DL. As to the turn on sequence here is the order and reasons for the sequence.
For docking turn on the iPad first start MF app and then plug into a powered on DL. For network connection turn on the access point and let the DHCP server time to be functional. Then turn on iPad on and MF and lastly the DL. The DL has the weakest sync code.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on March 12, 2014, 11:42:38 PM
It does appear to be solved but I have noticed an important order of startup.

I've never had any trouble getting them to sync on startup. After a few hours, though, that's a different story. Mackie service in NJ has had mine for two weeks now. I wrote up a detailed procedure for them to reproduce the issue. They haven't tried it. They're "waiting for something from Loud." I'm not happy.

Some months back, when a jack failed on my first DL1608, I had a new one in days, because parts didn't exist. Now they're "servicing" them. As if they're going to do anything but swap the motherboard.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: mmurphy on March 13, 2014, 02:43:05 PM
Yes, I did meant MasterFader 2.1.1
I have tried to make it fail all week as I have a gig on Saturday and hate nothing more than friggin around with gear at a live show.
I will let you know if it works.
It appears that my start up sequence is not the recommended one but it has not failed yet.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Cheers.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: JMc on March 17, 2014, 06:22:27 PM
Been having the same sync while docked issues...  MasterFader and iPad OS both the latest versions.  I'll try the recommended startup sequence, but come on...  It shouldn't be this difficult.  You should just be able to turn the damn things on, in whatever order suits you, and they should all work together without some special "sequence".  Very frustrating...
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on March 17, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
Ran into my first occurrence of losing sync while docked.  I was able to connect to the wifi while docked, but it had the message that it wasn't charging.  (I was at 100% anyway.)  A full shut down of all apps and a reboot of the ipad and a power cycle of the mixer brought me back.  Bit of a pain?  Yea, but nothing that would have shut me down. (Could easily finish the show or set before dealing with the issue.)   It would be worse to lose power.  (That happens about once every couple of years.)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: JMc on March 17, 2014, 07:54:47 PM
Oh, almost forgot...  Another VERY strange issue aside from the sync loss.  After the show, the metering was all working, everything was synced and I had music playing from the iPad while we were breaking down...  My band mate touches the "mute" for his channel so he can safely unplug and the iPad music is muted...  Just... gone.  I see the meter still bouncing, so I know there's signal.  I double check and triple check to make sure the iPad channel isn't muted...  Several more second go by and a loud rash of white noise blasts through the speakers.  What is THIS all about, now?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on March 17, 2014, 08:00:52 PM
That would be the white noise issue that some are experiencing.  Probably had nothing to do with your bandmate muting his channel.  I haven't had to happen to me, but I also don't use the ipad as a music source at gigs.  I do use it when we need to listen to a song we're working on at rehearsals.  No one has been able to figure out what is causing it to happen.  It seems unpredictable.  People are hoping for a fix, but intermittent problems are the hardest to figure out.  (And this is as intermittent as you can get.)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Harpman on March 17, 2014, 09:45:44 PM
I don't have the sync issue nearly as much anymore because my docked IPad is only running MF. I stream my break music from my Airport Extreme to channels 15/16.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on March 17, 2014, 09:47:46 PM
I don't have the sync issue nearly as much anymore because my docked IPad is only running MF. I stream my break music from my Airport Extreme to channels 15/16.

I've certainly had the sync issue with no playback at all.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: mmurphy on March 19, 2014, 06:18:35 PM
Well I ran the heck out of my rig this weekend. I left it on all day Saturday and packed it up in -20C weather and brought to my gig. Plugged it in, and presto. It worked perfectly. Played all night error free.
Left it in the car till Monday (I know, I know especially here in Canada) but anyways, I went and set it up at noon on Monday and again left it on till I arrived for the gig at 4:30pm. Played all night error free.

I am much happier with it now.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on March 30, 2014, 06:23:09 PM
Now they're "servicing" them. As if they're going to do anything but swap the motherboard.

Little update. When my DL1608 hit the one month mark sitting on a shelf in the service center in New Jersey, I whined to techmail at the home office. New one arrived Friday. Haven't had a chance to stress test it, but I've had it out for two shows with no problems. Taking it out again this afternoon.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Keyboard Magic on March 30, 2014, 10:40:39 PM
So just for laughs, here is my start up sequence:

One iPad is dockedÖ.
Power up airport express, wait for it to boot.
Power up DL, it then makes the iPad power up.
Load Master Fader 2.1.1 on docked iPad. It then syncs with the DL (get pop up window announcing sync)
I then load whatever saved scenes I need to use.
Power up remote second ipad, make sure itís connected to airport express wireless, load Master Fader on this iPad. It syncs to docked ipad or the DL itself. (Not sure which)

This has worked every time. Of course this all has not been used in the real world yet, so I may be in for a lot of fun dropping sync etc. when I do a real gig at an important venue.


Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on March 31, 2014, 02:57:08 AM
That's exactly my startup sequence. Router, DL, docked iPad, remotes.  I watched the docked iPad resync for no apparent reason a half dozen times in 3 hours. It always came back, and never dropped audio, but still. This DL's now for sale while it's still fresh. I love using it, and as far as I'm concerned the feature set is finally all there, but if I can't trust it, it's less than useless to me. I'll wait for the next generation from competitors. My eye's on the QSC, because my experience with them as a company has been bulletproof. In the meantime, I've started doing small shows with a couple of Focusrite interfaces and a laptop running Reaper.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: mmurphy on March 31, 2014, 05:05:26 PM
Well I have not had a single problem since the upgrade to 2.1.1
This weekend I forgot to plug the router in during setup and one guy in the band said hey where's my monitor mix?
I plugged it in and his iphone could see the router but we had to power cycle the DL. No problems after that.
Minor matter.
I've been recording our shows now and am very happy with the results (level wise anyways, the musicians are a whole other story :).

Mike
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Keyboard Magic on March 31, 2014, 10:04:36 PM
Used DL for the first time today at a small venue. Powered it off and on numerous times in between sessions just to give it a break and there was no sync loss whatsoever. It ran flawlessly all day. I was using the remote iPad the whole time with the other ipad docked. I know it's the first real use, but fingers crossed, it will continue to perform like this gig after gig  ;)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on April 01, 2014, 04:38:51 AM
It's obvious that many of you have two ipads to begin with.  I probably ought to get another one as a back up.  Using my iphone as an emergency back up, but really haven't had any problems that would prevent me from getting the job done.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: PeterKorg on April 01, 2014, 06:22:42 PM
Hi KM I have used my DL about 50 gigs now and it has never failed me, just turn up, assess the room, call up a previous show similar in size, and work from there,

I always keep one iPad docked, and one in my hand the magnetic cover actually sticks to my keyboard, Korg M50 the rest of the guys have IPads and sort out their own monitor mix, speed and simplify is the essence, of these things, I use all 16 channels and all 6 aux's
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: JMc on April 06, 2014, 06:34:24 PM
I'm sure happy to hear that so many aren't having any sync problems with their iPad's because my iPad 2 is having problems all the time losing sync.  The recommended boot order suggested earlier:

Power on iPad, open Master Fader
Power on DL-1608
Power on router

Doesn't work for for me.  In order for the router to sync and pass signal to the aux iPads and iPhones, it has to be powered up first.  I guess I'm going to have to undock the iPad from the mixer and hope that it stays in sync that way, but that wasn't my preference.  I'm calling Mackie tomorrow.  I love the DL1608, but these little niggly bugs are making it lose its sheen.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 06, 2014, 07:10:06 PM
Not sure what your reading but I and many others have explained the power up sequence and it's not what you stated. Since there are two different ways to hook up to the DL different sequences are used by me.
For the record once more:

Docked usage:
iPad power on and MF started first then
power on DL.

Un-docked usage:
Power on access point (Airport express etc.) first. Reason is to have the DHCP server ready to be able to assign IP address.
Power up DL since it has the poorest connect software.
Power on iPad and start MF.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: JMc on April 06, 2014, 07:16:08 PM
Docked usage:
iPad power on and MF started first then
power on DL.

Un-docked usage:
Power on access point (Airport express etc.) first. Reason is to have the DHCP server ready to be able to assign IP address.
Power up DL since it has the poorest connect software.
Power on iPad and start MF.


What if I want BOTH docked and undocked usage?  In other words, I want to leave the iPad docked, but still have wifi use for other iPads and iPhones using master fader or my fader?  Because if I use the sequence you say for Un-docked use, then my iPad that is docked loses sync.  Repeatedly.  It seemed that I had tried your undocked method before, but still lost sync with the docked iPad.  Oh well, I'll try it again.  Not much else I can do.  Thank you.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 06, 2014, 07:40:15 PM
That was not your original request and I don't have two iPads to simulate your problem but let me suggest that you power up the DL last after all iPads have been started. Gio may have some input to this since he has two iPads. It may also depend on the iPad versions for more fun. None of this would need to be done if the MF/DL software were properly written. This software exists in the public domain from the Linux router project 10+ years ago. Sad!
Loosing sync is of course the problem Mackie has yet to fix and that won't go away with any power on sequence.

If your sync loss is consistent and repeatable then let me say that when you talk to Mackie suggest that they buy back your gear so that they can solve the Sasquatch project. ;D
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: JMc on April 06, 2014, 07:56:44 PM
Thanks for your input...  I'm still going to call Mackie tomorrow to complain, for the reasons stated and because it's warranted.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 06, 2014, 08:12:22 PM
When you call Mackie (general #) ask for Graham Jordan and state personal business when asked. He is the "code whisperer" and ask him if this will ever be fixed. >:D
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: sam.spoons on April 07, 2014, 12:29:02 AM
I usually follow the recommended (by Mackie) power on sequence of :-

1. Router (and wait for a minute or so before)
2. DL1608
3. Dock the (already booted) iPad and start Master Fader

My less than systematic approach seems to work virtually every time.

To add my second iPad via WiFi I first make sure it has a connection to the DL router and start MF.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 07, 2014, 12:46:41 AM
How do you ascertain that the second  iPad has a connection to the DL via Air express before you start MF? Or at least that the second iPad has a connection to the Air express?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on April 07, 2014, 01:02:42 AM
Reread his post and all should be obvious.  He connects to the wifi router first.  (With lots of wifi routers nearly everywhere, you do need to make sure you're attached to the correct one.)    I'm not sure the order is too critical.  I do shut down all the apps that I don't need.  I do run Master Fader and OnSong.  And usually I do need to tell it to connect to the wifi DL  1608 even if started docked when the mixer was turned on.  (One time thing each startup)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: sam.spoons on April 07, 2014, 01:11:23 AM
Correct, just go to the WiFi tab in settings and make sure the iPad is connected to your DL system router first then start MF (actually it works nearly every time even if MF is running and the iPad has connected to a different router as happens if I set the DL up at home, I just tell it to connect to the correct one and all is well).
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on April 07, 2014, 01:53:36 AM
My third DL sat over in the corner of the room with my original iPad in it running audio for the last week week solid. It resynced repeatedly, but always recovered. Seems clear to me that there is something in the communication code that is borderline. Variance in the hardware either slides too far off the edge or doesn't. If you're a lucky one with good hardware, and you don't stare at your DL nonstop, you might well never notice the resyncs.  Dialog box pops up for a second and goes away. So, my recommendation is that if you have one that drops sync and doesn't recover, send it back and get one that doesn't.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 14, 2014, 02:49:08 AM
My 1st gen docked ipad lost sink twice last night and wouldn't recover unless I shut down the master fader app.  Both times it happened when I transitioned from break music through iPad channel.to our live set music.  No meters, no response from fader adjustments.  All other wireless devises worked without interruption.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 14, 2014, 05:16:29 PM
I think by now we can conclude that 1st gen iPads are not usable for docked service and will never be. Apple has decided that 1st gen's for iOS 7 are to be replaced so any fixes or updates to MF won't run on them. If mixed version MF's are a problem as seen in the past we can also conclude that un-docked service will also be broken unless Mackie decides to make it backward compatible.   x(
Does anyone here have a Lightning (N) connected unit? Since there is a bunch of electronics in the communications path it may be a solution to sync if it's hardware related. This of course would mean upgrading to V4 or Air for the docked iPad. ;D
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: sam.spoons on April 14, 2014, 06:36:11 PM
Mackie haven't decided to stop supporting the Gen1 iPad, I believe it is simply that Apple have stopped allowing non-iOS7 apps to be on the app store (somebody correct me please if I'm wrong).
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 14, 2014, 09:31:42 PM
I think by now we can conclude that 1st gen iPads are not usable for docked service and will never be. Apple has decided that 1st gen's for iOS 7 are to be replaced so any fixes or updates to MF won't run on them. If mixed version MF's are a problem as seen in the past we can also conclude that un-docked service will also be broken unless Mackie decides to make it backward compatible.   x(
Does anyone here have a Lightning (N) connected unit? Since there is a bunch of electronics in the communications path it may be a solution to sync if it's hardware related. This of course would mean upgrading to V4 or Air for the docked iPad. ;D

Are we sure that the lost sync problem is limited to 1st gen iPads?   I just want to make sure because iPads are not cheap.   I have used the DL for about 6 shows plus practices and last show was the first time this has happened.  Anyway as professionals, one lost connection is enough...can't have this happen again.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 14, 2014, 10:20:10 PM
Just curious why there is nine pages on this subject. It's one I have not been following.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 14, 2014, 11:57:30 PM
I think by now we can conclude that 1st gen iPads are not usable for docked service and will never be. Apple has decided that 1st gen's for iOS 7 are to be replaced so any fixes or updates to MF won't run on them. If mixed version MF's are a problem as seen in the past we can also conclude that un-docked service will also be broken unless Mackie decides to make it backward compatible.   x(
Does anyone here have a Lightning (N) connected unit? Since there is a bunch of electronics in the communications path it may be a solution to sync if it's hardware related. This of course would mean upgrading to V4 or Air for the docked iPad. ;D

Are we sure that the lost sync problem is limited to 1st gen iPads?   I just want to make sure because iPads are not cheap.   I have used the DL for about 6 shows plus practices and last show was the first time this has happened.  Anyway as professionals, one lost connection is enough...can't have this happen again.
At the present all 30 pin iPads are involved but when and IF the software gets fixed it will leave 1st gen iPads with the old software (ie not upgradeable courtesy of Apple). I have no info on N connector versions only the 30 pin hence the reason for the question.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 15, 2014, 04:17:58 PM
I docked my 1st gen iPad and ran some music through it yesterday.   It took several hours but it did lock up finally.  I mean it lost sync without recovering.  Now I will connect my 4th gen via an adapter and see if I can duplicate the problem.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 15, 2014, 07:59:27 PM
Ok now my lightening 4th gen iPad permanently lost sync while docked.   >:(.  I guess it's time to call Mackie.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 15, 2014, 08:03:12 PM
Call them about what? As if you are telling them something they don't know.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 15, 2014, 08:32:46 PM
Call them about what? As if you are telling them something they don't know.

Well maybe to send another DL that doesn't drop sync?  Or refund my fn money.  Take your pick.   I have done several shows where it has been steady over the last 6 months.  My problem didn't happen till now. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 15, 2014, 10:20:07 PM
Good luck with that.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 15, 2014, 10:42:42 PM
Good luck with that.

Do you have a solution for us Jerry? Or are you telling us we are f#*^Äd!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 15, 2014, 11:25:29 PM
Yes you are f#*^Äd!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 16, 2014, 03:16:16 PM
Yes you are f#*^Äd!

Not necessarily if this X18 turns out to be the real deal, I'm gone from here.  However as a new product I worry about getting into more problems than I have now.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on April 16, 2014, 03:19:08 PM
Jerry Lee's experience must be good with Behringer.  Just like some people with Mackie's DL1608 who have never had problems and love their mixer.  It happens.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 16, 2014, 03:33:53 PM
I have said many times I have never had a problem with my Mackie dl1608. Mackie themselves, well....
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: robbocurry on April 16, 2014, 04:31:36 PM
Yes you are f#*^Äd!

Not necessarily if this X18 turns out to be the real deal, I'm gone from here.  However as a new product I worry about getting into more problems than I have now.
Can you wait until at least September or October this year for the X18?
It's an unknown quantity and you're right about running into problems there too, it's a very plausible scenario. Lot's of Behringer customers are getting noisy waiting for the X app update to work with their 2.ooooh firmware update. As someone said over in their forums, for all the dollar price difference, you might as well buy the X Rack if it's a Behringer you're after.
My DL works fine wirelessly, if I was depending on the docked link like you are, I'd be cheesed off too :(
Mackie need to step up and fix the problem or apportion blame elsewhere if that's the case.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 16, 2014, 04:58:34 PM
It's probably an ios issue that is causing the problem. After all it was mentioned by someone here that things were working fine and the all of a sudden not. I had an issue with something in the past not working. And it was because of an app I downloaded. I just restored the iPad and all was fine.

In regards to the street list price of the rack vs x18. US price is $1199 and $799. That's not a small difference. $999 to $1199 is a different story. Dl to rack.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: robbocurry on April 16, 2014, 05:46:13 PM
If I was happy enough to buy Behringer, I'd spend the extra $400 and get the box that will probably be more future proof and definitely more expandable than the X18.
It seems a more complicated beast and that may not suit everyone's needs, but that's what I'd buy if I was looking there.

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Rick Scofield on April 21, 2014, 04:28:23 PM
Had my first sync-drop during a gig on Friday.  Happened mid-set, so I didn't notice.  Had 4 MyFader users wirelessly controlling their own monitors, and two iPads running Master Fader.  I noticed during a break that the one that was docked stopped metering.  It would not pass iPad audio to the mains for our break music, which sucked, but we kept the break short and went into our second set.

Couldn't wait around to troubleshoot.  Bummed, but don't really feel like it's a complete failure, since the show just went on.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on April 22, 2014, 06:54:43 PM

Yes you are f#*^Äd!

It's probably an ios issue that is causing the problem. After all it was mentioned by someone here that things were working fine and the all of a sudden not. I had an issue with something in the past not working. And it was because of an app I downloaded. I just restored the iPad and all was fine.

You certainly have a lot of opinions for a guy who's never seen the problem.

The issue is somewhere between the two systems, leaning heavily toward the Mackie side. Older DL firmwares didn't suffer from it. Current versions drop out fatally with some DL1608s and all iPads, regardless of iPad or iOS version. Other DL1608s drop out but consistently recover. Having returned mine twice, I now have one of those. Still other lucky DL1608s apparently don't drop out at all. I haven't seen one of those. All of this indicates to me that some sort of DL1608 parts tolerance probably plays a role. Restoring the iPad has no effect whatsoever.

If it locks up fatally, email techmail@mackie.com and demand a replacement. Worked for me. Refer to this thread. They have to do something about it eventually.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 22, 2014, 09:39:27 PM
Had my first sync-drop during a gig on Friday.  Happened mid-set, so I didn't notice.  Had 4 MyFader users wirelessly controlling their own monitors, and two iPads running Master Fader.  I noticed during a break that the one that was docked stopped metering.  It would not pass iPad audio to the mains for our break music, which sucked, but we kept the break short and went into our second set.

Couldn't wait around to troubleshoot.  Bummed, but don't really feel like it's a complete failure, since the show just went on.

Same thing here.  Mackie told me to re install firmware but it didn't help.  I found the fastest way to recover is to briefly unplug the docked device then it will recover.  I sent Mackie another email but no response.  I haven't had much time lately but my next step is a phone call.  Smh.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Fluddman on April 25, 2014, 01:37:54 AM
Had my first sync-drop during a gig on Friday.  Happened mid-set, so I didn't notice.  Had 4 MyFader users wirelessly controlling their own monitors, and two iPads running Master Fader.  I noticed during a break that the one that was docked stopped metering.  It would not pass iPad audio to the mains for our break music, which sucked, but we kept the break short and went into our second set.

Couldn't wait around to troubleshoot.  Bummed, but don't really feel like it's a complete failure, since the show just went on.

Hey Rick - do you leave the break music playing on the docked iPad and just mute the iPad channel. I usually don't have problems if I go into the music player app and stop the playback - but if I leave it playing it happens.

Cheers
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Rick Scofield on April 25, 2014, 03:01:54 PM
I don't recall if I had stopped the iPad playback app, or just paused it.  Strange thing was that I could re-open the music app and hit play and I could hear the playback in my IEMs (thru Master Fader/dl1608), but I had no meters reflected on the docked iPad, and could not control the faders.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 28, 2014, 10:17:07 AM
I don't recall if I had stopped the iPad playback app, or just paused it.  Strange thing was that I could re-open the music app and hit play and I could hear the playback in my IEMs (thru Master Fader/dl1608), but I had no meters reflected on the docked iPad, and could not control the faders.

I sent an email to Mackie support with a link to this page noting that you and I have the exact same symptoms.   Once they review it,  I will call them. 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on April 28, 2014, 11:03:44 PM
Here is Mackie's response:

Hi,
 
All that can be tried is doing the firmware reinstall, reinstalling Master Fader or trying a different iPad. At this point if none of those work, it will need to be sent to our DL service center for diagnosis and repair. If you want to go with that option, please reply back with the following information along with your sales receipt. We will then issue you a number that you will give the service center when you contact them.
 
First and Last name:
Phone#:
Shipping Address:
 
Serial Number:
 
 
 

facebook.com/Mackie facebook.com/AmpegUSA
LOUD Technologies Inc.
16220 Woodinville-Redmond Rd. NE | Woodinville, WA 98072
Tech support: 800.898.3211
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 29, 2014, 01:37:51 AM
Hummm sounds about right for Mackie. First they waste your time and then they ask you to send them their "manufacturer defective" product back to them. What fix? It's over a year now that they've known about this problem. If you're under warranty tell them to cut you a check or prove that it works 24/7.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 29, 2014, 04:05:38 AM
You guys keep blaming Mackie as if the board is defective. It is not. Many dock connectors do not play well with ios. Especially when software changes take place. I have had hubs that used to work perfectly well but now get nailed constantly with unsupported device messages from my iPad. Does that mean the hub is defective? No it doesn't. Does that mean ios no longer supports it's full function? Yes.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on April 29, 2014, 04:18:47 AM
I doubt that Mackie wouldn't do something about it in the long run.  Am I correct that a lot of the sync losses are occurring while docked?  (Are they working well when running WiFi?)   When I had a problem with one of the XLR/TRS connectors, Mackie sent me a replacement so I was actually out of a mixer for about 20 minutes.   If the unit had been out of warranty, I would have fixed it myself.  (Think I can handle a bad connector and some solder.)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Harpman on April 29, 2014, 05:00:24 AM
You guys keep blaming Mackie as if the board is defective. It is not. Many dock connectors do not play well with ios. Especially when software changes take place. I have had hubs that used to work perfectly well but now get nailed constantly with unsupported device messages from my iPad. Does that mean the hub is defective? No it doesn't. Does that mean ios no longer supports it's full function? Yes.

Interesting enough, I hadn't had any sync issues until I upgraded to iOS 7.1.1.  I lost levels both Saturday and Sunday gigs, but interesting enough, it still said "Connected".  Undocking and rebooting the iPad did the trick.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Ampli on April 29, 2014, 04:57:22 PM
I close all apps and reboot the ipad before i start a gig.
Almost never have i reconnect,
When i forget to reboot and close the apps, then i got a lot of reconnections
Some how its a problem with open apps
And no i didnt upgrade yet
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Tbranella on April 30, 2014, 12:55:36 PM
You guys keep blaming Mackie as if the board is defective. It is not. Many dock connectors do not play well with ios. Especially when software changes take place. I have had hubs that used to work perfectly well but now get nailed constantly with unsupported device messages from my iPad. Does that mean the hub is defective? No it doesn't. Does that mean ios no longer supports it's full function? Yes.

Interesting enough, I hadn't had any sync issues until I upgraded to iOS 7.1.1.  I lost levels both Saturday and Sunday gigs, but interesting enough, it still said "Connected".  Undocking and rebooting the iPad did the trick.

had the same thing happen last Saturday night at a wedding gig... it happened twice, once during each set.
it seemed to happen sometime after I hit the "record" button in master fader.

I have another gig this Saturday, I'm not going to record anything and I'm going to try closing all apps and rebooting the iPad before the gig.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 30, 2014, 01:30:07 PM
Simple solution for now. Stop docking your iPads!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on April 30, 2014, 03:42:13 PM
Simple solution for now. Stop docking your iPads!
Simpler solution yet sell your DL and move on, right JR!
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on April 30, 2014, 06:25:34 PM
Hell yeah WK.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on May 02, 2014, 03:01:41 PM
Ok.  I re installed Master Fader again on the docked iPad.  It has been running program material on the iPad channel for 48 hrs straight with numerous pauses by me and switching back and forth between the music app and MF.  Not one dropped connection.  At this point I have to consider my docked connection problem solved for now SMH.

So in summary:
1. Upgraded devices to MF 2.1  Resulted in docked iPad losing sink- no recovery
2.  Forced firmware re install on DL1608.  Same fatal result with docked iPad
3.  Re installed MF on docked iPad.   System stabilized for 48 hrs.

A side note here is that I had to perform this same scenario when we went to 2.0. And iOS 7.  One of our iPads would not connect.  I am not saying this will work for everyone but who knows?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on May 02, 2014, 04:12:20 PM
Been there done that same results, just give it a month or so then see if it holds.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on June 10, 2014, 11:11:34 AM
Apparently I spoke too soon.   >:(. The problem reared it's ugly head again the other night.  I am under warranty so I will send the damn thing to service center.  I already know they won't find anything wrong because it is software related IMO.   The only other alternative is to live with it and not use the dock.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on June 12, 2014, 04:06:12 PM
Why bother with the expense or time lost by sending it back. Mackie acknowledged the problem is software and when they find a solution you can fix it yourself. In the meantime only use it un-docked.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on June 12, 2014, 07:04:31 PM
I assume Mackie will fix this one with high priority.  This is "system down" for people with only one docked iPad.

Fyi, it happened to me last night. 

The docked iPad had been "resyncing" itself once in a while, and finally in the last ten minutes of the performance it permanently lost connection to the DL.    The app was still operable, and the recording was uninterrupted, but the control surface connection was lost with apparently no way to revive it without undocking the iPad (and thus interrupting the recording) which I did not want to do.

Fortunately we had two other iPads connected via wifi, which we were using as our primary control surfaces, so no sweat on the docked iPad issues.

Which brings me to the question -- why bother with a docked iPad at all?  Why?  Because you have to dock an iPad if you want to record anything digitally from this board.  Which brings me to the question of -- why not have a USB recording jack rather than the iPad recording?  Hmmm ... that's the X32, isn't it?

I hope Mackie does something quickly here.  Forcing you to waste an iPad just for recording purposes without the ability to reliably also use it as a control surface, adds another $300-400 (cost of the 2nd iPad) to the operational cost of this board.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: sam.spoons on June 12, 2014, 07:34:34 PM
iPod touch 5G+ or several generations of iPhone will also dock and record, I use my iPod touch 5G for now when I need it but, as it will become useless for MF with the next upgrade ('cos it'll only support iOS 6) I live in hope that it may still work for record and playback.

There USB option is not available, at least until DL1608 mk2 (not including a USB port was a bad move IMHO) so we're stuck with what we've got (which is still more than we could have dreamed of 3 years ago without spending 10x the money).
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on June 12, 2014, 07:36:30 PM
J you don't need an iPad to record. iPhones and touches work too for recording through the dock.

Also you also need to dock if you want to use music directly through the dock and iPad channel. But I think this also works with the phone/touch.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jerrylee on June 12, 2014, 07:37:09 PM
Sam we were typing at the same time.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: sam.spoons on June 12, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
Yup, great minds  :D
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on June 12, 2014, 08:12:26 PM
Okay, I do use an iPhone 4s 32GB as my main phone, so I guess I could record on that. 

I have been using the airport express for AirPlay wireless playback when I need it ... however,
Will MyFader also allow me to playback through the iPad channel?

Hate to lose the ability to tote my iPhone around and use MyFader to do sound checks, but if it frees up the second iPad then there may be times worth doing it.

In the meantime Mackie still needs to fix this problem.   And/or provide a chassis conversion kit that allows you to turn your DL into a rack mount unit with a docking cord or iPhone/iPod dock.

Thanks.  John
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on June 12, 2014, 08:26:00 PM

There USB option is not available, at least until DL1608 mk2 (not including a USB port was a bad move IMHO) so we're stuck with what we've got (which is still more than we could have dreamed of 3 years ago without spending 10x the money).

Actually  a USB V1.1 port is part of the 30pin connector so a paddle board like the one for the lightning connector is quite possible. Leave the control part with the WiFi and just use the USB for recording/playback and charging. It just needs a real hardware USB transceiver that can handle the USB spec. even if it's only V1.1.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on June 18, 2014, 04:14:51 PM
Ok .  Mackie has now admitted there is a problem but they  have not isolated the cause.    They are sending me a new mixer.   I would not bother emailing but calling them direct.   They were very helpful.  They can not guarantee however that the same problem will not occur with the replacement.

Mike
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on June 18, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
You would almost think that the 30 pin connector board might be the problem.  Is anyone having this problem with the lightning connector?  The adapter board is newer and might have been designed differently.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on June 20, 2014, 02:49:01 AM
Asked and answered, no difference.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on August 24, 2014, 05:17:10 PM
Just an update, my 3rd DL1608 is now dropping sync frequently. I don't disconnect it, because I'm recording. Sometimes it successfully resyncs after a few minutes of blank meters. Sometimes not. I'm really ready for QSC to come out with theirs.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on August 24, 2014, 09:52:29 PM
Get ready from what I hear if you didn't pre-order you'll be waiting.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/touchmix/id898402638?mt=8
For practice meantime. ;)
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Keyboard Magic on August 25, 2014, 02:34:05 PM
So even with QSC, how do we know that we arenít going to run into teething issues similar to Mackie? All these new small format digital mixers are potentially going to mess up until the software/hardware bugs are ironed out. Yes QSC does have a good name and their products are good, so hopefully the first little bugs will be swiftly corrected.  Itís like playing Russian Roulette. You want them to work Ďcause theyíre so cool and wireless mixing is amazing. But for me thereís that little nagging doubt.

I know some have not had any issues at all with their DLís and a lot have, myself included. But when youíve just received your 3rd new DL and itís acting up, what does this say? Mackie has a big problem. (I know, Captain Obvious here) Based on postings here, I am seriously considering another product.  And with the uncertainty of small digital mixers like Mackie, for me at least I am considering analog. Actually using my ZED10 for now. But that X32 Rack is looking better all the time, hmmmmm. Sure, there's the uncertainty factor with this one too, but haven't heard of any major fails yet since it was released.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on August 25, 2014, 02:58:57 PM
Would be watching for the first complaints from others.  Had my docked ipad lose sync at rehearsal.  rebooted the ipad and things went fine from there.  Didn't have my iPad mini connected up like I normally do.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on August 25, 2014, 03:28:55 PM
KM in a few weeks mine will be a two year old. It is all about a company's support system and philosophy. Mackie's unfortunately is dismal with their Digital mixer lines, not just the DL. Software will always have a few bugs but response from the manufacturer is what counts. A year and a half is way past any reasonable response. QSC is in it for the long haul and as they stated on their forum other sizes are to follow. I doubt that they would drag their heels if they expect to be a player in this field. Think about this. Where are Mackie's other size digital mixers, two years is a long time for additional models.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on September 18, 2014, 02:56:01 PM
Mackie sent me a new mixer and I still lose sync while docked.   I now undock during sets and re dock for charging during breaks.  SMH.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on September 18, 2014, 03:27:21 PM
Yah, I don't normally have this issue because I have two iPads and the that one stays docked is usually at 100% charge. I didn't charge that one up before my gig last weekend and had all sorts of connection problems with it. I'm now wondering if it is the fast charge that is screwing up the communications. Someone posted that they cut the charging line in their extension cable and had good connection. AFAIK the DL1608 is the only iPad connectivity device made that fast charges while passing data back and forth? Rather than completely disabling charging I wonder if it would be fine if we just disabled the fast charging but allowed slow charging - I believe there is just a "fast charge enable" pin on the 30 pin connector that would need to be disconnected, dunno how that works on the lighting connector. It'd be really cool if those of us with the 30 pin could just cut a trace on the connector daughterboard and magically have all our connectivity issues go away :) .
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 18, 2014, 07:26:11 PM
I wish it was that easy but the charging info is sent via the USB +- lines with varying voltage levels. See pinout on 30 pin connector.
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/Apple_iPod,_iPad_and_iPhone_dock
Note the analog audio lines are not used by the DL. Also be aware that the female connector shown is upside down from the DL's, check where the contacts are.
 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on September 18, 2014, 08:08:09 PM
Maybe a series resistor on the power line would work just as well?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Sting on September 18, 2014, 08:17:56 PM
Yah, I don't normally have this issue because I have two iPads and the that one stays docked is usually at 100% charge. I didn't charge that one up before my gig last weekend and had all sorts of connection problems with it. I'm now wondering if it is the fast charge that is screwing up the communications. Someone posted that they cut the charging line in their extension cable and had good connection. AFAIK the DL1608 is the only iPad connectivity device made that fast charges while passing data back and forth? Rather than completely disabling charging I wonder if it would be fine if we just disabled the fast charging but allowed slow charging - I believe there is just a "fast charge enable" pin on the 30 pin connector that would need to be disconnected, dunno how that works on the lighting connector. It'd be really cool if those of us with the 30 pin could just cut a trace on the connector daughterboard and magically have all our connectivity issues go away :) .

Yes I run two iPads also...my first gen.  Stays docked/undocked at the mixer.  Not a huge deal to me because I will be going to the lightening tray eventually.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 18, 2014, 09:31:26 PM
Maybe a series resistor on the power line would work just as well?
Already there as a 166 ohm on ground return, unfortunately it affects all signals that reference that ground. ::)
Don't ask!
 
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on September 18, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
Maybe a series resistor on the power line would work just as well?
Already there as a 166 ohm on ground return, unfortunately it affects all signals that reference that ground. ::)
Don't ask!
So, when it is charging at 2 amps there's a 332 volt drop across it ;) ? I'm pretty sure that resistor isn't in the charging ground :) .
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 18, 2014, 11:20:56 PM
Maybe a series resistor on the power line would work just as well?
Already there as a 166 ohm on ground return, unfortunately it affects all signals that reference that ground. ::)
Don't ask!
So, when it is charging at 2 amps there's a 332 volt drop across it ;) ? I'm pretty sure that resistor isn't in the charging ground :) .
Where do you get 2 amps from?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on September 19, 2014, 12:46:41 AM
Apple's iPad charger is rated at 2.1 amps.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 19, 2014, 02:14:23 AM
Apple's iPad charger is rated at 2.1 amps.
That's Apple but Mackie's puny little 5V supply probably only puts that out for everything 5V in the DL. I've yet to see a spec on the charging current for the DL/iPad. Something I was planning to measure if I get to the cable experiment.
Corrected see report below.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: RoadRanger on September 19, 2014, 12:29:30 PM
Dunno what you saw but IME the DL1608 does fastcharge an iPad - it takes about the right amount of time to go from half to full. I've slowcharged an iPad off a 1/2 amp laptop port and it takes FOREVER.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 19, 2014, 01:18:22 PM
When I get a chance I'll revisit that. It may have only been the trickle charge. It's been a while.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 20, 2014, 08:22:29 PM
OK RR so you made me drag that POJ out of it's peaceful resting place in the closet and put it on the rack again. My memory cells must have had one too many numbers to deal with  :-[ but that's what I have you for RR. Here is the last measurements based on the lab supply at 12V. At 100% charged iPad and no other inputs/outputs or Phantom power on the DL draws 1.87 amps @12V. Without the iPad it draws 1.33 amps @ 12V. A charge current of ~ 1.3 amps @ 5V if the converters are 100% efficient which they're not. At 90% efficiency it's 1.17 amps at 5V. Haven't measured the DL charge voltage, left to a future cable test measurement. The ground I was using for the old above numbers was the Firewire ground (29 & 30) which has the 166 ohm resistor and is clearly not the return on the charging circuit.  :facepalm: RR. Who'd a thought that you put the power line on one connector and the return on another? Way to go Mackie, more stellar engineering.  This lead to my confusion. Pin 15 & 16 are the return 23 is the +5V. Need to check again if there's anything on the paddle board to affect this. I let the DL run with only the MF app and nothing else. It looses charge and makes it's way to 80% at which time it fails. The current draw goes from the 1.87 to 1.97 amps (1.53amps @5v) in the process over several hours. A word of caution. All this is using an iPad 3 retina display. iPad 2's have a battery half this capacity and off course will have differing results as will the iPad 4, Mini and Air. If there is any change you can count on from Apple it's another battery and charger, $$. When it fails the charge current drops to 1.55 amps @ 12V. That minus the DL's draw makes it the power available (~500 Milli-amps) from a USB v1.1/2.0 powered port. Apple unfortunately declares this as not charging in the DL's case and Mackie immediately declares it not sync'd. A bad idea at best. Not sure if that's an Apple status generated that Mackie is acting on or their own. In any case Mackie does make the final determination about sync. Battery level at 80% is a far cry from being a problem.
In conclusion there is no fast charge from the DL only one range around 1.2 - 1.5 amps until it looses sync. It then drops to 0.5 amps and not connected. That's it for now.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 21, 2014, 07:26:56 AM
Hmm, so sounds like this problem might be related to 5v charging issue that makes using a cable for docking a PIA?

In that case, the workaround should be the same: keep a full charge on the ipad and dont dock it at less than 90%. That has been working for me, knock on wood.

Having to fully charge the iPad before each gig is pretty lame though.

Most likey the noise is ripple on the Mackie's 5v power supply for the iPad. Hopefully the Ipad charging circuit has its own supply. Its probably a standard buck converter, in which case increasing the output capacitor and a better inductor will usualy improve ripple. These parts are generally large enough to replace with a regular soldering iron. The trick is figuring out what the existing values are.

If someone knows a service center tech who can look up the part number for the converter chip, the data sheet probably has some info on chosing componants for minimal ripple.  It would be interesting to see if it is really rated to put out 2A. Anyone know if Mackie has a service manual for the DL1608 or how to get a set of schematics?

Its possible that it might be able to make out the part number from the markings on the chip, but that is pretty hit or miss.

WK154 - Do you have a higher rez version of the 1608 motherboard picture that you posted in your Autopsy FAQ a while back? Could you post that in the FAQ?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 21, 2014, 07:57:45 AM
Kevin unfortunately the 5V buck converter and all others except for the 3.3V (on main board) were stuffed into the analog section that I never opened. Hence no pics. :(
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Wynnd on September 21, 2014, 12:41:40 PM
Congrats to having probably found the sync problem source.  I only had that happen once, but mine is an ipad 2 and I didn't notice the charge level.  Been keeping it fully charged on days I need the mixer.  (I keep an ipad mini wireless at my keyboard.)  One thing about keeping an ipad fully charged.  They will go for days of no use with no noticeable drop in charge level.  I could probably leave my ipad docked.  It would get used at least on rehearsal every week and that would probably be enough to keep it charged. 

Since I've had the ipads, I don't take my laptop out much.  Used the laptop last night to play a DVD for German Movie Night.  (I'm a minor officer in the Edelweiss Preservation Foundation.  We do German Language movies once a month.)  I ran the macbook on battery power with an external DVD drive for about 2.5 hours and still had 32% left on a 4 year old computer.  Apple products continue to amaze me.  I didn't know about the battery life until after I bought this macbook.  I just wanted good firewire for my recording hardware.  Could never get my windows laptop to daisy chain the firewire.  The mac has always worked fine that way.  I haven't tried it yet, but I upgraded my internal drive to a Momentus XT hybrid drive.  (Nice improvement and I needed the extra space.)  I've only done a few channels recording since then.  It might be fast enough to handle 16 channels, but I need to test it.  I'm rambling again.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 21, 2014, 05:58:49 PM
Quote
Kevin unfortunately the 5V buck converter and all others except for the 3.3V (on main board) were stuffed into the analog section that I never opened. Hence no pics.

How much extra work do you think it would take to get into the analog section? I'm guessing it probably looked like a PIA, or else you would have done it when you did the autopsy.

If the problem turns out to be undersized component(s) in the 5V charging circuit causing excessive ripple at full load, that may be fixable with a few bucks in parts and a few minutes of soldering - but that's once you have the circuit in front of you, which may or may not be a bit of work. If its the switcher itself that is undersized, that might be tough because at the 2A range, a higher rating usually increases the footprint. You can usually get better caps and inductors in the same footprint by spending a little more.

Until someone comes up with a workable mod for the power supply, keeping the iPad charged every gig is probably the way to go. I very rarely go below 92-93 percent by the end of 7 hours max total ontime with Bluetooth off and mostly undocked.  I can see how this would be more of a PIA for someone with lots of back to back gigs and it is lame to be restricted to only using 10 percent of effective battery capacity. I can also see how I might need do this down the road if the battery on my iPad starts to fade.

BTW - off topic - but reading your autopsy post again, I recall there was an unpopulated circuit that you speculated looked like an unused firewire circuit. That could be an indication that Mackie contemplated firewire recording when they designed the DL, and then left it out because they either didnt have the firmware worked out, and/or they figured most people arent going to want to bring another computer to the gig for recording via firewire anyway. The fact that they left the traces on the PCB and just didnt populate the circuit may be a good sign that they at least wanted to keep this as an option going forward. Whether anyone at Mackie is pursuing this option is TBD.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 21, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
My iPad is a 3 and I don't know how Mackie implemented Sync determination other than poorly. If data is coming over the pseudo USB lines and surviving the sync disconnect then there is an obvious problem. I can make it fail with<90% charge on the ipad. Large charging current disrupts the frail USB lines or whatever other way they have of determining Sync. This problem existed since day 1.

Always has a full charge, doesn't get undocked, so that's probably not it. Airplane mode makes no difference, for whatever that's worth.

You say you can make it fail? How? I would love to reproduce it at will, give us a chance to solve it.

Is anyone else seeing this? It's complete loss of mixer control. I would think people would be screaming if it was at all common.

For people who are seeing this happen on a fully charged iPad, how old is your battery and how quickly does it drop to 90 percent when you run wireless? If its an older iPad and just started happening, it may be that the battery is worn to the point where it cant stay in trickle charge mode even if its always docked. Once Mackie's iPad charger comes out of trickle charge mode, it seems to get noisy, and this causes comm errors. Each release of MF and IOS seems to add to the likelihood that a comm error gets fumbled and you can blame programmers but to fix it you need to get rid of the noise, which may mean new battery.

edit - if anyone has 2 iPads and is having this problem, you might want to try docking the newer iPad and using the older as the remote and see how that works.

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 21, 2014, 10:32:25 PM
Kevin as I look back on the autopsy and the subsequent problems that arose with the DL I would have approached it quite differently. At the time I was only interested with what was under the hood in terms of CPU's, memory and A/D-D/A's. I had no interest in the rest. Yes it is a PIA to get at the analog section. I have now put my Systems Engineering hat on again which has as a cardinal rule: "Remove any substandard units". I have since installed more XAP800's that could easily have been DL's except for it's potential failure modes. DL's are off my list. I bought the DL to have first hand knowledge before recommending or using it for customers. I occasionally get drawn in to deal with individual unit problems but I have found over the years it doesn't pay. It turns out to be a big waste of time and resources, as in this case with a non-responsive manufacturer. "Live and Learn" most of the time.
In my notes I found two part # which are voltage controllers possibly one on the main board. A LP 3853 and a LTC 3853 but I don't remember which is in use. My guess would be the LP 3853. Others not listed are Ram's ISSI IS 42S16 160D 16Meg x 16bit and a 4 Meg x 16 IS42S16 16400. The ROM is a Spansion S29GL256P90DTFCR2  16Meg x 16 bit (32 MB). Metacom indicated ~3.9 MB usage out of 18MB, again from his mods to the DL. Then there's the 10/100 Ethernet chip a SMCS 8710A. This leads me to believe that the engineer that designed the DL was light on the abilities of the chips he used. There are far more chip capabilities than are being used.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 01:01:43 AM
In my notes I found two part # which are voltage controllers possibly one on the main board. A LP 3853 and a LTC 3853 but I don't remember which is in use. My guess would be the LP 3853.

The LP3853 is probably for the micro, DSP and any other 3.3v parts. The LTC3853 looks like overkill for a charger circuit and is probably for all the 5v analog circuits. Its possible that the iPad charger circuit also uses this, but I think thats unlikely because (a) if this rail gets noisy it would affect the sound quality, and no one has reported that and (b) that would be a rookie move and so far this unit actually looks fairly well thought out to me.

If anyone is bothered enough by this noise issue that they are willing to follow up on WK154's autopsy and figure out what it takes to get the iPad charger circuit, I suspect that will reveal a cheap 2A buck switcher like the AOZ1050PI for the iPad charging circuit. With a little luck the part number will be legible from the package. You can spot the chip because it will probably be next to a bobbin inductor and largish SMD capacitor. Once the switcher part number is known, one can check rated output and see if there might be a beefier drop in replacement.

Metacom indicated ~3.9 MB usage out of 18MB, again from his mods to the DL. Then there's the 10/100 Ethernet chip a SMCS 8710A. This leads me to believe that the engineer that designed the DL was light on the abilities of the chips he used. There are far more chip capabilities than are being used.

That is not so unusual and I would say is more of a sign of an engineer who is planning ahead. Firmware almost always lags behind the hardware, but getting certifications for hardware is expensive. Mackie has CE, C-Tick and DENAN for the DL1608. A smart HW engineer will load up the PCB with every circuit that marketing might need for the next 5 years, certify the whole thing,  depopulate whatever you cant / dont want to support going out of the gate and hopefully have capacity to add hardware and firmware features for the next several years without spinning a new PCB or trigger re-certification requirements. Depopulated Firewire circuit and lots of extra Flash capacity is a sign to me that someone was thinking ahead for ability to do future revs on same HW platform
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 22, 2014, 03:16:19 AM
Kevin there are no 1.8V parts AFAIK so it's all 3.3V. You hit the nail on the head when you said " A smart HW engineer will load up the PCB with every circuit that marketing might need for the next 5 years." Unfortunately features such as 10/100 Ethernet controller, part of the Blackfin feature set were not used instead a SMCS 8710A was used duplicating hardware. SD interface exists unfortunately without a redesign you'll never see it. The Blackfin is quite capable of USB V2.0 high speed rates and once again it was dummed down to an outdated V1.1. That may be recoverable with a paddle board mod to properly handle USB and software mods. In general it's a poor design by my standards. Proper ground planes are lacking and I no doubt could go on and on. That's just the hardware. They most likely self certified the CE but they'd better have the FCC cert. unless their looking for another fine in the US. I covered this subject a while ago from the standpoint that they may be close to a USB charging spec. Here is a section of that.
" Are you looking for a means of charging offline (DCP = Dedicated Charging Port which Apple already supplies) or are you looking for a means to charge the iPad while in operation CDP (Charging Downstream Port)? The 2010 1.2 Battery charging spec for USB has many options. Do companies go outside the spec? The answer is NO except for Apple ( remember Apple only claims to be able to hook up with USB 2 devices and certainly is not USB certified). The limits on a CDP is 1.5 amps but you will be hard pressed to find any because the limit is the induced noise on ground for charging current ( sect 3.5 of the spec which limits it to 375mV). The Spec itself would actually allow up to 5 amps but it would exceed the 1.5amp limit imposed for each standard port. Once you exceed the limit you have 3 shutdown choices one of which is to provide constant current output (up to the safety limit of 5 amps). Does anyone make a device like this in volume? Again the answer is NO not even Apple. The best you could hope for is .9 amps for a USB 3 port but the USB 3 ID process would most likely drop you back to .5amps USB 2 on a CDP. If you are looking for a offline charging unit you already own one. It is well known that USB 2 ports will charge iPads even  if the iPad  states it's "not charging". Since Apple really doesn't state any conformance to USB it's hard to come to any conclusion other than by trial and error.
It appears that Mackie may have wanted to stay close to the battery charging spec (max 1.5 amps) but note the above noise limit(in red) which reduces it. If I remember back in V5 iOS days all was well with the charging circuit, then Apple fixed the problem and a lot fell apart after that. ;D
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 04:02:19 AM
Kevin there are no 1.8V parts AFAIK so it's all 3.3V.
Gotcha, I looked up LP3853 and saw it mostly in 1.8v circiuits, I didnt realize that there is a 3.3v version of this regulator also with same number.

The real question is what switcher is the iPad charging circuit using? Is anyone willing to crack their case to determine what part this is?
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 11:37:01 AM
for now i am using a 3 foot extension with the 5V power line severed, ipad 3 fully charged before a gig. this is working OK, but i wish there was a firmware fix available from Mackie. you listening, Mackie?

This may also be a viable workaround for anyone who has an iPad with a fading battery and experiencing the sync problem while docked: get a cheap 30 pin extension cable and cut the 5v power line. You will still probably need to charge the iPad before every gig, but now you will be able to use all of the battery capacity without triggering the DL's noisy charge circuit if you need to dock the unit.

I dont think we are going to see a firmware fix for this any time soon. The problem may well be in IOS, not MF. When I saw this problem using extension cables, when the problem occurred, all programs running were effected, not just MF. The noise may be sending IOS's USB driver into the weeds, which then causes problems for all programs that are using data. Stopping the noise at the source will probably be a lot easier and can be likely be accomplished sooner.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 01:49:42 PM
They most likely self certified the CE but they'd better have the FCC cert. unless their looking for another fine in the US.

Maybe, although self cert for CE is still a lot of work to perform and then certify the results of many tests. I'd be willing to bet that whoever did the CE cert testing, it was done with a fully charged iPad. If the DL's fast charging circuit is noisy enough to cause data errors in the USB lines, then I suspect that the DL would not pass the EMC tests while doing fast charge. IE with a iPad that has a low state of charge. If an aggressive competitor wanted to cause trouble for Mackie in Europe, they could replicate the problem (not difficult, just run down the iPad's battery) and prove it fails EMC tests. That could result in an injunction on selling until Mackie fixes the problem. It seems it would be in their best interest to get on top of this and reduce the noise in their fast charge circuit
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 22, 2014, 04:29:09 PM
Before anyone cracks open their case consider this. We know that recording or playback continue to function once sync is declared lost. This would indicate that the charging circuit has no part in USB data transfer disruption. The determination of sync is made by MF code. What indicators are used to determine this are at the heart of the problem. This is done over another set of communication lines Rx (13), Tx (12), and its ground (11) via the famous Mandolin protocol. The status for this is Apple provided or possibly DL charging logic, but as I stated before the final decision is MF's.
 One note on the cable requirements for the USB lines, the spec requires shielded twisted pair for the half duplex differential data lines. That doesn't mean a shield on the overall cable which is what most extension have. More important what is the shield tied to. It should be tied to chassis ground to be effective. The internal Mackie cable shield is tied to that confusing (29, 30) with the 166 ohm series resistor going to the iPad's Firewire ground as I remember.
It's time for Mackie to come up with a solution.
Correction all communication is performed on the USB lines. Unfortunately Mackie ties shield and signal ground together at the paddle board, bad idea.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 05:00:45 PM
Before anyone cracks open their case consider this. We know that recording or playback continue to function once sync is declared lost. This would indicate that the charging circuit has no part in USB data transfer disruption.

Not necessarily. Random noise causes random data errors. Recording and playback are streaming and may or may not be checking the data. If there are bit errors in your music, you may never hear them. Failure in a control message has a lot more consequences. Also, remember that another common bug is the 'white noise' issue, which would indicate that playback sometimes *does* get affected. Believe me, noisy power rails can cause all sorts of seemingly random problems. Usually the hard part is figuring out where the noise is coming from. Typically another component with a reactive load that causes a brief spike when it turns on. In this case, its pretty obvious that the 5v charging circuit gets noisy when it goes to constant current mode. There may be other sources of noise as well, but this is a pretty obvious one, and should be relatively straightforward to fix.

It's time for Mackie to come up with a solution.

Agreed. And if they carefully comb their control code, they can probably find places where they can and should improve their error detection and recovery. That could take a while and finding all of the vulnerabilities to corrupted data is a neverending task. OTOH, swapping out a coil and cap can be done by the weekend, even allowing for a couple days to get parts from digikey or mouser.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Keyboard Magic on September 22, 2014, 05:17:36 PM
We want to be optimistic that Mackie will do something to address current issues plaguing quite a few DL1608 owners, but if we havenít seen patches, hardware fixes or updates released yet, are we going to? You kind of get the feeling that Mackie is hoping that all the current dissatisfied owners of the 1608 will be ready and willing to trade up to the DL32. Case solved for Mackie. They really donít have to do a thing.

Ah, pessimism.  :P
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 22, 2014, 06:31:19 PM
Kevin I don't disagree with what your saying but like me I was led to believe that we are dealing with engineers that have some idea of convention. Running the charge current + in cable A along with USB +/- data along with the Firewire ground and then putting the USB power return in another cable B along with the a fore mentioned Rx, Tx, Gnd defies convention. I have chased noise problems for large part of my career and found it elusive and in the least likely places. I however don't believe that Mackie split up the "command and control" to two different paths (actually 3 since Ethernet is another path). The USB lines are just for streaming audio in my estimation. It doesn't matter what error correction if any  they may apply. As you stated it will most likely not be noticed until the data turns into the high frequency junk that has been noticed. Silence would have been a better choice. So maybe in their USB data transfer process they can check for this problem, then again their code may have gone tits up. Looking at the Mandolin communication ( command and control) which is layered on top of Apples serial protocol is where we should be focusing. Again error handling in this area is what I believe is the source of the sync problem. Hardware fixes aren't going to help this unless you can prevent the transition to the 0.5 amp charge which would be the limit trigger >1.5 amps which it apparently reaches at 80% battery level. Redesigning their charging circuit is over the top. My view it's "substandard" equipment in a system.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 07:54:51 PM
Kevin I don't disagree with what your saying but like me I was led to believe that we are dealing with engineers that have some idea of convention. Running the charge current + in cable A along with USB +/- data along with the Firewire ground and then putting the USB power return in another cable B along with the a fore mentioned Rx, Tx, Gnd defies convention.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a service manual with some schematics, so that we can see what is really going on here.

So maybe in their USB data transfer process they can check for this problem, then again their code may have gone tits up. Looking at the Mandolin communication ( command and control) which is layered on top of Apples serial protocol is where we should be focusing. Again error handling in this area is what I believe is the source of the sync problem.

I'm a contract engineer (HW/FW) and get pulled into problems like this every few months or so, across a fairly wide range of products. Yes the SW/FW is usually to blame to some extent, but most SW/FW is written with the expectation that the hardware 'just works', especially in consumer devices. I'm not saying that Mackie and Apple dont need to fix their SW/FW, but when a product starts having intermittent problems and customers are canceling orders, there is usually not a lot of time to do cleanup passes on the code. You often need to break out a scope and start stressing the unit to find out why it doesnt 'just work' and then make it 'just work' Then you can (and should) clean up the code in the next SW/FW rev.

I cannot imagine any client with intermittent problems that are losing them customers, and that even suspects that they have a noisy power rail issue, would think about solving the problem by throwing SW/FW at it. Not in the short term anyway.


Hardware fixes aren't going to help this unless you can prevent the transition to the 0.5 amp charge which would be the limit trigger >1.5 amps which it apparently reaches at 80% battery level.

Might not be a bad approach

Redesigning their charging circuit is over the top.

I'm not talking about redesigning their charger circuit. I'm talking about cleaning it up a bit so it isnt so noisy. Depending on the circuit, it might not be so hard to do. I've had to clean up power supplies a few times before to solve problems very similar to this. Assuming the original design was in the ballpark, it usually just requires some extra filtering, which if you are lucky can be done without having to change the PCB. Just some BOM changes. Capacity issues are tougher and usually do require a layout change and hand mods until that can happen.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 22, 2014, 08:20:36 PM

I'm not talking about redesigning their charger circuit. I'm talking about cleaning it up a bit so it isnt so noisy. Depending on the circuit, it might not be so hard to do. I've had to clean up power supplies a few times before to solve problems very similar to this. Assuming the original design was in the ballpark, it usually just requires some extra filtering, which if you are lucky can be done without having to change the PCB. Just some BOM changes. Capacity issues are tougher and usually do require a layout change and hand mods until that can happen.
This is were I have to disagree. The charge circuit and the limiter are doing their job unfortunately when the current reaches the limit (1.5 amps) it goes into constant current mode at .5 amps. This event triggers software status and like domino's bad things happen. Noise is there from 100% to 80% (several hrs.) without causing a problem, but the switch not caused by noise but by the limiter starts the problem loss of sync. A bad software design decision. Mackie may use that transition indication to start looking for the 1.3 - 1.5 amp current to reconnect which it may never see. At least that's my viewpoint. Not having schematics and code sucks. Software mods are much quicker and cost the client nothing and in my days was a lot faster.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on September 22, 2014, 08:37:08 PM
We want to be optimistic that Mackie will do something to address current issues plaguing quite a few DL1608 owners, but if we havenít seen patches, hardware fixes or updates released yet, are we going to? You kind of get the feeling that Mackie is hoping that all the current dissatisfied owners of the 1608 will be ready and willing to trade up to the DL32. Case solved for Mackie. They really donít have to do a thing.

Ah, pessimism.  :P

Being an optimist, I think that Beno and the Mackie engineers really want to fix this.

Being a realist, I understand that management generally doesnt like to spend money on engineering unless they think they can make stupid money, or they think there is a risk of losing stupid money. Which actually makes me more optimistic about them solving this particular problem.

Why - because they are clearly aware that they are having intermittent problems. Maybe not yet big problems, but the older everyone's iPad get, the more these problems will be reported, and that could lose them stupid money in the long term. Further, I think there is at least an even chance that their noisy iPad charging circuit could cause them to fail a couple of the CE EMC Directive tests. If WK154 is right that Mackie did self certification for CE and an aggressive competitor (*cough* Uli *cough*) calls them out for sloppy EMC testing, Mackie could say goodby to ever doing self cert again, as well as hold up CE for the DL32 by many months. That would be short term stupid money.

So I think we should have both Mackie's better angels and their worse ones on our side for this particular problem

Not having schematics and code sucks.

Yeah, I still have the service manual for my old 24VLZ board, even though I sold the board a couple years ago. Thanks in large part to that manual, I got something like 15years of good use from that board.

You may be right about the charge circuit not being as easy to sort out as I would expect. Presumably Mackie does have both schematics and code, and should be able fix this. I suspect that the schematics will be more useful than the code in this respect, but time will tell.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Keyboard Magic on September 23, 2014, 12:15:53 AM
Kevin,

Like most of the forum has suggested many times, Mackie should, (not with this platform of course) open up the control medium to other devices besides iOS, such as Windows, Mac and Android (can you say Behringer X18 concept, etc.) This would guarantee better Market Share, less wasted money and give consumers more flexibility. We might all end up being happy campers once more. Of course this could also be solved by moving to another manufacturers product too. (that last was written with tongue in cheek)  :P

Maybe the DL32 will solve some or most of their current issues. Gleaning from the very non revealing video on the upcoming DL32, it looks like they've borrowed some design features from the X32 Rack like total wireless control, thus eliminating sync and white noise issues. This is only conjecture on my part until more is revealed hopefully next month.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on September 23, 2014, 06:46:10 PM
Kevin which are you?
"
Being an optimist, I think that Beno and the Mackie engineers really want to fix this.

Being a realist, I understand that management generally doesn't like to spend money on engineering unless they think they can make stupid money, or they think there is a risk of losing stupid money. Which actually makes me more optimistic about them solving this particular problem."

I'm a Realist who tells it like it is which makes me a Pessimist in today's "politically correct" world. But guess what I won't do, change. So in that frame of reference I prefer to evaluate Mackie on their past performance ( reality and facts) instead of trying to play the Stock Market with them (risky futures).

KM putting on my System Engineering hat I see nothing wrong with your
 " Of course this could also be solved by moving to another manufacturers product too. (that last was written with tongue in cheek)  :P
"
 It's what I already have done since 11/13.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Keyboard Magic on September 23, 2014, 07:18:42 PM
WK;

KM putting on my System Engineering hat I see nothing wrong with your
 " Of course this could also be solved by moving to another manufacturers product too. (that last was written with tongue in cheek) 
"
 It's what I already have done since 11/13.

Couldn't agree more.  :lol:
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Kevin on October 01, 2014, 11:58:28 PM
I posted this earlier today on the "white noise" thread. Posting here for those who might be following this thread separately. Apologies to those who have already read this:

Here are some measurements of the charge cycle for an 18 mo old Gen 3 iPad, with the DL1608, and Apple 10W and 12W chargers

To measure current from the DL, I popped the plastic housing off my old Patazon 3ft 30 pin cable, cut back about an inch of the jacket in order to separate out the red usb power wire (pin 23) and measured it with a current clamp meter (accurate to 1% and calibrated a few months ago).  Voltage readings were from Pin 23 to 15.

http://imgur.com/DQ6fL70

Under no load, the DL puts out 5.01v

With the iPad battery completely discharged, so that the iPad is unable to boot, the DL puts out 0.48A (dumb USB mode) and voltage drops a bit to 4.94v. Interestingly both the 10W and 12W apple chargers put out about 1A in this mode, and have a lot more of a voltage drop (~4.2v)

When the battery gets to 2 percent charge (so that the iPad is just barely able to boot), the current from the DL goes to 2.01A and the voltage drops to 4.69v. I put a scope on pin 23, expecting to see a sawtooth waveform on top of the rail, with a spike on the rising edge, but it actually looked pretty clean, with a solid 4.7v rail (I'm still not sure I believe this though, and might try to borrow a better scope for further testing).

At this point, the apple 10W charger was putting out 1.03A @4.21v and the 12W was putting out 1.05A at 4.24v. This is the most current that they put out during the whole charge cycle, and is only about half of what they should be able to produce. In order to measure these, I had to plug them through the 3 ft Patazon cable, so the total charge cable length was about 6 feet. That could have caused them to cut their current back, although the iPad did display "charging". If I can find an extra iPad charging cable, I might open one up like I did the Patazon and see how these two chargers work when there is only 3 feet of cable

The DL continued to put out about 2 amps until the battery was somewhere between 50 and 65 percent (I wasnt watching it closely enough to see exactly where it went into CV mode). By 65 percent, the current had cut back to 1.85A and it slowly dropped until it got to 1.50A at 95 percent - which is where things started to get a little strange.

At 95 percent, I was still seeing dropouts with MF, which was unusual. Then, while playing with MF, the SOC went straight from 95 to 100 percent in a blink. Next, when unplugging and re-plugging the cable to get my synch back, the current from the DL dropped from 1.50A to 0.89A, at which point I had a solid connection.  Unplugging and re-plugging the 30 pin cable, sometimes I would get ~1.5A, in which case MF could not keep the synch and sometimes I would get ~0.90A and have a solid connection.

What is probably going on here is that when the iPad first displays 100%, it is not really at 100%. This has been documented elsewhere. In reality, the battery is still halfway down the CV curve. It turns out that 0.89A is the current draw for my iPad running MF when the battery is completely charged. So at this point, the iPad's charger is having trouble deciding what to do. Plug the cable in once and the iPad thinks it still should be charging and pulls 1.5A. Plug it in again and it thinks the charging is done and just pulls what it needs to run the iPad. All the time, the battery display is 100%.

By this point it was getting late, so I disconnected the iPad from the charging cable and left it sitting overnight. The next morning it was at 97 percent and when I ran MF, it almost immediately dropped to 93 percent. That was not too surprising since it didnt really charge to a full 100 percent the night before (even though the display said it did). What was very strange though is that now when I plugged the iPad into the DL, it was only drawing 16mA, which is much less than the current needed to power the unit. The 10W and 12W apple chargers were only supplying 7mA and 8mA respectively, so this appeared to be an iPad issue, not a DL issue.  During this time MF would not synch at all, even though I would normally have no problems at 93 percent. Then, to make matters more confusing, the battery indicator ticked up to 94 percent. It was impossible that the battery could actually be charging because the iPad needs ~0.8A just to stay on and the DL was only putting out 16mA.  I then played some music through the iPad speakers, just to use more power and let it go for about an hour. During this time, the battery level crept up to 100 percent again, even though the most the iPad ever pulled was 17mA. Over the course of an hour with the iPad's display on and music playing, the actual battery charge would have dropped by about 3-4Whr - even though the indicator said it was charging! So clearly the iPad charging logic has some issues. At the end of the hour, I checked the iPad draw from the Apple chargers again, and they were still only putting out 7-8mA. I powered the iPad down and back up again and same thing. Unit displays 100 percent, and only draws a few mA from the DL or either Apple charger. This looks to me like some sort of bug in the iPad's charging circuit, which happens right around the time that the battery display goes to the false 100 percent charge (but battery is still in the middle of the CV curve). In retrospect, I should have tried docking the iPad to see if it had any effect. I might try this again to see if I can replicate it. I suspect that when the iPad gets into this mode - right at the onset of the "false 100 percent" charge, the iPad can lock up in a state where it wont synch to the DL and wont take a charge. This appears to be the iPad's issue, not the DLs. Running into this at a gig would really, really suck.

Next, I powered down the iPad and left it for an hour. When I powered it back on, the battery display was still at 100 percent, but the DL was putting out 1.5A again, so at least the iPad realized that it was supposed to be in CV mode and was drawing a reasonable current. I let the iPad go to sleep mode, at which point the charge current went to 0.87A and tapered down to 0.22A over 90 minutes. After 3hrs, it reached what seems to be a steady 0.11A.

At this point, the DL and iPad went back to being their old normal selves again. Power draw from the DL was about 0.8A to 1A while MF was running and MF had no problems keeping synch with other programs running. However playing around with the setup some more, I realized that "normal" is not quite what I thought it was.

It turns out that keeping MF from dropping out is not really so much of having the battery fully charged, but keeping the current draw from the DL below about 1.2A (for which a full battery is needed). If I increased the brightness of the iPad display to about 3/4, I would get periodic drop outs, and at full bright (about 1.5A), it wont hold synch at all. No problems at default and lower brightness settings.  Even my 6 ft Cable Jive cable (normally rock solid at full charge) drops out after about 15 min at full brightness on a fully charged battery. The 2ft Cable Jive has no problems at full bright (or any other condition that I've run into so far).

That's about all I have time for this week and still a lot of open questions, but I figured I'd throw these results up to see if anyone else has some insight as to what might be going on.

TLDR: Looks to me like the problem(s) might be with power distribution on the iPad, but further testing is needed. In the meantime, if you are having disconnect problems, make sure that the iPad battery is fully charged (not just displaying 100 percent - give it a good 2 hours of charge time after it gets to 100 percent). If you are still having problems and dont want to hack a 30 pin cable, try reducing your display brightness and see if that helps

Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: nottooloud on November 18, 2014, 08:05:57 PM
This is all well and good, except for a few niggling facts.

Firmware 1.4.1 didn't have this problem, unless you were WK154 and running an extension cable.

I have seen it regularly, on 3 different DL1608s and 3 different iPads, across iOS 5, 6, 7, and now 8, all with fully charged batteries.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on November 19, 2014, 01:41:26 AM
This is all well and good, except for a few niggling facts.

Firmware 1.4.1 didn't have this problem, unless you were WK154 and running an extension cable.

I have seen it regularly, on 3 different DL1608s and 3 different iPads, across iOS 5, 6, 7, and now 8, all with fully charged batteries.
I'm waiting on some parts (connectors) to test what I believe is the solution to the sync problem. Mackie clearly hasn't a clue as how to deal with it in software or it would have been fixed long time ago. Mine is a possible hardware solution which I should have realized long ago when their power supply design caused the Pin One problem. This is just more of the same poor engineering. Too bad they don't call on Bill Whitlock or someone like him to go over their designs. Unfortunately the DL is not on my high priority list so it may take some time.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 16, 2015, 01:36:49 PM
Great investigative work on this, guys.   Last night my sync problem was particularly bad, with the docked iPad staying unsynced for most of the 2.5 hours of the performance.  I will try your charging suggestions to see if I get a better result tonight.

Thanks.  John
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: WK154 on December 16, 2015, 06:31:02 PM
Try reducing the screen brightness to the minimum tolerable and see if that helps. Make sure it's fully charged as well.
Title: Re: docked iPad loses sync
Post by: Jkowtko on December 18, 2015, 01:30:43 PM
Okay, it definitely helped a lot to reduce brightness on the screen ... I saw only a handful of dropouts the entire night, and no freezeups.

It would be nice if Mackie could resolve this problem.

Alternatively, has anyone wired up a data only connector cable for the DL that either has no power, or splits off its power usage to a different source?