Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Sting on December 27, 2013, 04:26:10 AM
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Our drummer purchased a behringer ha4700 headphone amp. They had a problem with noise running out of the aux sends on the DL. I believe it is because this amp doesn't support balanced connectors on its aux inputs. Am I wrong on this? If not what are you guys using for IEM?
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The HA4700 on both direct in and aux is unbalanced (TRS stereo is the clue). The only balanced lines in and out are the mains. I had similar problems with a Yamaha mixer and HA4700 but managed to quiet it with the right cable hookup. Of hand I don't remember the solution it's been a while. The DL doesn't help this issue since it has a pin one problem. The right power supply for the DL and the cable that lowers the input noise may make this workable. Better to just return it and find a headphone amp with balanced inputs.
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There's no phantom power on the Aux outputs. For unbalanced runs, keep the cable short, consider a DI box in line. Both of those should help. (Maybe the DI box more than the cable.) Balanced is a stronger signal and cleans up anything that the cable picks up. That only works when both ends are balanced. You might also want to carry the signal out balanced and put a matching transformer on the amp's input. (Probably as good as a DI box.)
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I'm guessing but if it's just for the drummer he would want something like the Behringer Powerplay P1. Just haven't seen anyone carry this. Two balanced inputs to headphones with pan and loudness control.
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The DL doesn't help this issue since it has a pin one problem.
how do you mean?
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The DL doesn't help this issue since it has a pin one problem.
how do you mean?
Injects equipment leakage currents into the signal.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=383.0
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The HA4700 on both direct in and aux is unbalanced (TRS stereo is the clue). The only balanced lines in and out are the mains. I had similar problems with a Yamaha mixer and HA4700 but managed to quiet it with the right cable hookup. Of hand I don't remember the solution it's been a while. The DL doesn't help this issue since it has a pin one problem. The right power supply for the DL and the cable that lowers the input noise may make this workable. Better to just return it and find a headphone amp with balanced inputs.
This headphone amp is only being used to run a quiet monitor mix for practice sessions. The problem is that all of the headphone amps that I have seen have stereo or unbalanced inputs. They got by last time by running headphones directly from DL's aux sends but that's not the best solution IMO. So a direct box or transformer- equipped cabling may be the fix...I don't know at this point.
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Transformers aren't needed, just make up some cables as follows, TRS to TRS with the ring (cold/-ve) left unconnected at the mixer end * and the tip and ring shorted at the headphone amp end (to send a single signal to both the left and right channels). These will supply a full line level signal to both sides of the stereo direct input for each headphone output and should (the concept works on my setup) be interference free.
If you're feeding a mono TS unbalanced input just fit a TS jack at the amp end.
* This works because the cold/-ve on the DL's aux outputs carries no signal. Counter-intuitive I know but it works, I tried leaving the ground unconnected but it didn't solve the noise issue.
The aux outputs are impedance balanced which means the cold is simply connected to earth by a resistor, this fulfils the need for both hot and cold to be the same impedance in a balanced system but gives a full signal between either the hot and cold or the hot and ground.
HTH
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Transformers aren't needed, just make up some cables as follows, TRS to TRS with the ring (cold/-ve) left unconnected at the mixer end * and the tip and ring shorted at the headphone amp end (to send a single signal to both the left and right channels). These will supply a full line level signal to both sides of the stereo direct input for each headphone output and should (the concept works on my setup) be interference free.
If you're feeding a mono TS unbalanced input just fit a TS jack at the amp end.
* This works because the cold/-ve on the DL's aux outputs carries no signal. Counter-intuitive I know but it works, I tried leaving the ground unconnected but it didn't solve the noise issue.
The aux outputs are impedance balanced which means the cold is simply connected to earth by a resistor, this fulfils the need for both hot and cold to be the same impedance in a balanced system but gives a full signal between either the hot and cold or the hot and ground. I guess your TS option leaves me a little confused. Sorry
HTH
Yes we are running mono unbalanced mixes from the DL aux sends to the headphone amp. I will make up these cables. Thank you
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Transformers aren't needed, just make up some cables as follows, TRS to TRS with the ring (cold/-ve) left unconnected at the mixer end * and the tip and ring shorted at the headphone amp end (to send a single signal to both the left and right channels). These will supply a full line level signal to both sides of the stereo direct input for each headphone output and should (the concept works on my setup) be interference free.
If you're feeding a mono TS unbalanced input just fit a TS jack at the amp end.
* This works because the cold/-ve on the DL's aux outputs carries no signal. Counter-intuitive I know but it works, I tried leaving the ground unconnected but it didn't solve the noise issue.
The aux outputs are impedance balanced which means the cold is simply connected to earth by a resistor, this fulfils the need for both hot and cold to be the same impedance in a balanced system but gives a full signal between either the hot and cold or the hot and ground. I guess your TS option leaves me a little confused. Sorry
HTH
Yes we are running mono unbalanced mixes from the DL aux sends to the headphone amp. I will make up these cables. Just to be clear, how is the TS wired? The hot from tip and cold from mixer end soldered to tip of TS?
No for this you are sending a mono unbalanced source to a stereo unbalanced input (the direct inputs on the HA4700) so you need TRS at both ends but wired differently (they probably won't work at all if plugged in the wrong way round so mark them or use different coloured plugs on each end).
Anyway, to make them use cable with a single conductor and screen and TRS jacks at both ends. Connect the screen to the sleeve at both ends, the centre conductor to the tip only at the mixer end (leaving the ring unconnected, very important) and to both tip and ring at the headphone amp end. The result is that the signal is the difference between Hot and Ground and is fed to both sides of the stereo direct inputs on the headphone amp.
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Got it...thanks
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Just do what I have been doing since I have owned the dl1608 with zero issues. Get the headphone adapter that converts a mono signal to stereo and plug it right into the dl. My drummer has done this hundreds of times. Works great and no extra gear needed. I have done a lot of rehearsals as well where the entire band would plug right in to their own aux. The aux sends are just as hot as the headphone send itself. People here are going to say not to do this because the auxes are no meant to bee used like this. Greg might give some technical reason. Ignore them all. It works and has been overly tested.
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I have just set up my DL1608 and HA4400 to try this. The noise is still there even with the cable I describe above but much reduced compared to a TS-TS cable (It completely cured the problem with my AER Custom 60's unbalanced line input). I've tried various combinations (half an hour sweating over a hot soldering iron :-) but with my ACS T3 IEM's nothing completely removes the problem and the custom cable is as good or better than anything else.
Jerry's option will work as it doesn't introduce another amp with an unbalanced input into the system (headphones straight out of the aux using a suitable adapter). There are theoretical reasons why not to do it but I can't remember if Mackie (Beno, back in the good old days) had any advice on the advisability of plugging headphones into the auxs and as JL says, lots of people have done it without harm to the DL.
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OK here's the tech side of this. The aux outputs are more than likely NJR 4580 which amongst other uses are recommended for headphone amp applications. I didn't take the analog section apart in my autopsy but judging from rest of what's in the DL and used in the C1604VLZ (where I have schematics) they're 4580's. Since you will be driving two impedance's in parallel (stereo) your best off with higher impedance headphones (50 ohms + which would be a 25+ ohm load on the 4580) less load on the aux output. You could also only drive one side of the headphone. Some talent likes to feel their keeping track of everything. The residual noise is of course pin one related if it's bothersome go for the power supply solution. The one thing that the Powerplay P1 has that's not in these solutions is a signal limiter. Set up your compressor as a limiter for some safety. Best to let everyone control their own levels (Myfader). One other thing headphones have no chassis leakage hence no noise currents. Another example in audio of less is more.
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I have just set up my DL1608 and HA4400 to try this. The noise is still there even with the cable I describe above but much reduced compared to a TS-TS cable (It completely cured the problem with my AER Custom 60's unbalanced line input). I've tried various combinations (half an hour sweating over a hot soldering iron :-) but with my ACS T3 IEM's nothing completely removes the problem and the custom cable is as good or better than anything else.
Jerry's option will work as it doesn't introduce another amp with an unbalanced input into the system (headphones straight out of the aux using a suitable adapter). There are theoretical reasons why not to do it but I can't remember if Mackie (Beno, back in the good old days) had any advice on the advisability of plugging headphones into the auxs and as JL says, lots of people have done it without harm to the DL.
I picked these up at Radio Shack. Part #274-348 (1/4" mono male to 1/8" stereo female) as a "suitable adapter". They also sell a 1/4" mono male to 1/4" stereo female as well. They work quite nicely:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfjcxz0w0owe6rs/2013-12-30%2009.46.22.jpg
In my particular application, I already have 1/4" to 1/4" mono cables so all I need to do is add a 3" barrel 1/4" female to 1/4" female connector, plug in the adapter and then the IEM's That way the musician can disconnect rather quickly.
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Great find :thu: Have you tried it yet with the DL aux's? Any noise?
Found Hosa GPM179 similar part.
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There is no noise. That's the part I have been using for years. I had it long before the dl1608. It does work like a charm to use the aux outs and headphones.
I originally bought it to combine a music players signal to a mono source. A setup I had only had one in. Since then I have used it for many different things.
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As JL said, no noise at all. Working on setting up a limiter preset to use 10:1, fast attack, etc. Bill, you put some recommendations on a thread somewhere on what you would use.
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Hosa GPM 179 are much cheaper.
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As JL said, no noise at all. Working on setting up a limiter preset to use 10:1, fast attack, etc. Bill, you put some recommendations on a thread somewhere on what you would use.
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Since the whole purpose of the limiter is protection for your ears a sharp knee fastest attack time and highest ratio is my choice and you don't want it dropping out so the longest decay time you can get. This all is removed when the signal drops below the threshold anyway. The important setting in this of course is the threshold and that would depend on your aux output levels and your ear-buds or headphones and your ear. I have a Pink Stick signal generator that runs off phantom power and has a pulse setting. This is what I would use and set the channel for clipping. This would be the typical situation to protect against. Set the limiter (aux output compressor) for what you want to tolerate in your ear. Remember that it should only be activated for protection and will be out of the way for normal use.
For the use of the aux outs to headphones you will no doubt need an extension cable. A normal stereo 3.5mm will eventually pick up noise and is also quite fragile. Here would be my choice for that extension cable. A TS connector at the DL aux with mic cable. The shield and the signal return connected to the shield. At the other end the shield unconnected the return to the shield of the 3.5mm female connector and the signal to the tip and ring (dual mono) of the 3.5mm connector. I would also attach a ferrite for RF protection near the 3,5mm connector. No adapter required since the cable as described would perform that conversion. The explanation for this is in Bill Whitlock's 2005 paper on Noise etc in audio section 3.6. As far as I know you can't buy this cable so warm up that soldering iron or let someone else do it for you. Belden #8760 is a excellent choice for a low impedance shield cable for most audio cabling.
Part # correction
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As JL said, no noise at all. Working on setting up a limiter preset to use 10:1, fast attack, etc. Bill, you put some recommendations on a thread somewhere on what you would use.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Since the whole purpose of the limiter is protection for your ears a sharp knee fastest attack time and highest ratio is my choice and you don't want it dropping out so the longest decay time you can get. This all is removed when the signal drops below the threshold anyway. The important setting in this of course is the threshold and that would depend on your aux output levels and your ear-buds or headphones and your ear. I have a Pink Stick signal generator that runs off phantom power and has a pulse setting. This is what I would use and set the channel for clipping. This would be the typical situation to protect against. Set the limiter (aux output compressor) for what you want to tolerate in your ear. Remember that it should only be activated for protection and will be out of the way for normal use.
For the use of the aux outs to headphones you will no doubt need an extension cable. A normal stereo 3.5mm will eventually pick up noise and is also quite fragile. Here would be my choice for that extension cable. A TS connector at the DL aux with mic cable. The shield and the signal return connected to the shield. At the other end the shield unconnected the return to the shield of the 3.5mm female connector and the signal to the tip and ring (dual mono) of the 3.5mm connector. I would also attach a ferrite for RF protection near the 3,5mm connector. No adapter required since the cable as described would perform that conversion. The explanation for this is in Bill Whitlock's 2005 paper on Noise etc in audio section 3.6. As far as I know you can't buy this cable so warm up that soldering iron or let someone else do it for you. Belden #8241F is a excellent choice for a low impedance shield cable for most audio cabling.
I plan on putting the adapter at the musician end with a Female-to-Female 1/4" adapter and running 1/4" cable to the AUX.
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I plan on putting the adapter at the musician end with a Female-to-Female 1/4" adapter and running 1/4" cable to the AUX.
It will make a difference whether you use a TRS or a TS 1/4" cable. TRS would merely extend the DL's aux output and would be my choice. TS would be an unbalanced cable extension just more rugged than the 3.5mm cable. More susceptible to noise. I like to keep the number of connections to a minimum. Bad habit from my IT days. :)
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Going to use a TRS. Wanted to out the adapter at the musicians end in the event they want to disconnect at break. What would be ideal would be a 1/4" male to 1/4" female TRS cable the the adapter would plug into on the female end.
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Going to use a TRS. Wanted to out the adapter at the musicians end in the event they want to disconnect at break. What would be ideal would be a 1/4" male to 1/4" female TRS cable the the adapter would plug into on the female end.
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You mean like this:
http://www.cablewholesale.com/products/audio-video-products/audio-video-cables/product-10a1-62225.php
:)
The after Christmas sale I was talking about. ;D
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That would be it :)
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Gio: Aux out's definitely cheap but after digging deeper may not be so good. Turns out that the output impedance of the DL is way up there at 250/120 ohms and hooking 50-75ohm cans or worst 16 ohm or less for some in-ears into aux's may be a bad idea. Yes you'll get sound but distortion may kill it. Definitely don't adjust any eq's etc. using them. Singers may eq themselves into bad sound definitely not good. Here is an article that explains why.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
And this for earphones
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html
The Behringer P1 is specked at 10 ohms not so great but way better than aux's. I need to find one. Will check my 4700 and the Mackie headphone out for impedance values.
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I'll check it out. First IT day back and slammed :)
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Some test results from my headphone quest. Using the aux's with just the 25 ft. cable and the Rippoff Shacks adapter (none of the Best Buy carried stock apparently their hosing Hosa) GC was no better. There is a low but maybe tolerable hum with reasonable settings (Not maxed) and this is using the Mackie supply. I used a Apex HP90 50 ohm set of cans. The audio sounded subdued compared to my monitor Beritone CA50 at similar levels. Possibly from low level hum and possibly other reasons. I also set up my HA4700 and connected aux to HA main in (balanced). The sound was clearly improved much crisper about like the monitor. Next will be the better power supply to see if it matters. PS the adapter cause intermittent disconnects so much for RS junk. More to come including the impedance measurement on DL phone plug.
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Some test results from my headphone quest. Using the aux's with just the 25 ft. cable and the Rippoff Shacks adapter (none of the Best Buy carried stock apparently their hosing Hosa) GC was no better. There is a low but maybe tolerable hum with reasonable settings (Not maxed) and this is using the Mackie supply. I used a Aphex HP90 50 ohm set of cans. The audio sounded subdued compared to my monitor Beritone CA50 at similar levels. Possibly from low level hum and possibly other reasons. I also set up my HA4700 and connected aux to HA main in (balanced). The sound was clearly improved much crisper about like the monitor. Next will be the better power supply to see if it matters. PS the adapter cause intermittent disconnects so much for RS junk. More to come including the impedance measurement on DL phone plug.
I had trouble with 2 Rat Shack adapters...sound coming from one side only. We used the Hosa plugs at practice,worked fine. We ran silent with guitars using just preamps and e drums and headphones direct from aux sends. Noise was very minimal although I was mixing from the main headphone jack but no one complained. Made my first recordings with the DL1608 and excellent quality. One guy commented that it sounds better than the studio stuff we've done. I don't know about that but very nice!
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Which radio shack adapters are you referring too? If you are not using the mono to L/R adapter then you will only get sound from one side. That's why you need the correct adapter. Me thinks you didn't have it.
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Which radio shack adapters are you referring too? If you are not using the mono to L/R adapter then you will only get sound from one side. That's why you need the correct adapter. Me thinks you didn't have it.
After further checking, you are right on Jerry. My radio shack adapters are mono to mono. I had them on hand not in the package so I was unaware...thank you! :facepalm:
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Here are the measured impedance values for the various headphone output points.
DL Headphone output ----89 ohms
DL Aux-------------------139 ohms (specs say 120 ohms)
HA4700-------------------8.3 ohms (main input for source only)
The DL headphone output is not that great the Behringer is clearly better. It does verify my suspicions with the prior sound tests which of course leave a lot to interpretation (subjective). For total transparency the ratio of 1/8 (output/input) for impedance is used less than that produces coloration etc. You may be satisfied with less.
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Now for the subjective test for 3 sources of IEM input plus a speaker.
To be a little scientific about this I adjusted the output of all 4 at 83 dbSPL or as close as I could with a 1K tone. This should avoid the old speaker sales trick of increasing loudness for the sale. I ran thru all 4 and still found the direct aux out light on the lows. The test source was Vocal group a Capella the Alley Cats which should cover the vocal range. Instruments will of course increase the range. All off an iPod into channel 15 and 16 of the DL no processing. All output thru the aux's and phone output (L/R buss) of the DL. Since I was predisposed to evaluate this I called on my other set of ears and sometime A/B tester my wife. After being interrogated about the reason for this I asked her to pick out the best of the bunch. Here is the results:
The CA50A speaker was used as a baseline.
DL earphone out and the HA4700, she could not tell any real difference.
DL aux in her words sounded a little thin but not to bad.
Strangely similar to my take. This rarely happens around here. :)
The earphones were all Apex HP90's 50 ohms impedance.
No I won't test this at 90 dB SPL it hurts my ears and she complained about 83 dB SPL being too loud. YMMV is all I can say and your pocketbook may be the deciding factor. Ear-buds (16 ohm variety) may have a much different outcome. If I can find some I'll try it. Noise at this level was inaudible. I'm sure I can coax some out at higher amplification but that's not the point.
Just found some ear-buds of unknown origin and impedance but there was about the same results. Also tried my AKG K270 studio cans and no real change their 75 ohm impedance units.
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Don't you want to know what you stick in your ear or what it's hooked to?
Well here goes more. I decided to change genre and include instruments. I thought Sarah Brightman would be a good start. The Symphony CD what a mistake. I've gone to her live concerts and the CD makes her out to be snake with a hoarse voice, definitely not her. Somebody needs to re due that album. So next stop were Barbara Streisand and Celine Dion and no problem as expected. Same basic conclusion as before. Country next. With Garth Brooks the kick was light as was the low end so basically the same conclusion. It's not far off but noticeable if your picky like me. I've not done much critical listing except for my own stuff so this an eyeopener. I also don't use ear-buds only headphones and studio speakers.
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One other thing about the aux outputs of the DL. The power is more than adequate to put a big hurt on your eardrums so power and sensitivity were never at issue here only tonality. That being said I highly recommend that you limit the aux out with the compressor and set realistic limits as to not cause any surprises. During my testing the DL lost sync but no sound was ever affected. I don't use the USB link for any sound play or record. I consider this broken until Mackie can come up with a fix. There is still no information of what would happen if the USB channel generates noise that the aux's won't be affected. All the more reason to limit the output with the compressor.
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One other thing about the aux outputs of the DL. The power is more than adequate to put a big hurt on your eardrums so power and sensitivity were never at issue here only tonality.
What about using series resistors? Seems to me you could select some to match up a given IEM powerwise and that would also help a lot with the impedance mismatch :) . The "no-clip" output comp preset could then be at a safe level and even if it glitched off you'd be OK. Of course the "right" option would be a small audio transformer.
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One other thing about the aux outputs of the DL. The power is more than adequate to put a big hurt on your eardrums so power and sensitivity were never at issue here only tonality.
What about using series resistors? Seems to me you could select some to match up a given IEM powerwise and that would also help a lot with the impedance mismatch :) . The "no-clip" output comp preset could then be at a safe level and even if it glitched off you'd be OK. Of course the "right" option would be a small audio transformer.
Let me first list a concern that hasn't really been brought up before specific to the DL. Normally the aux and L/R outputs where meant to drive a high impedance input such as an amp input. The rule of thumb in audio voltage interfaces is to have at least a 10:1 or higher ratio. The DL has a spec'd output of 120 ohms (600 for L/R) and should drive an input of at least 1200 ohms which in most cases it does some as high as 30K. My concern about driving lower impedance headphones is that the thermal overload will eventually cook the DL's non-vented analog section. We also both know that the impedance oversimplification does not really deal with what is a speaker design (IEM). It's just a coarse rule of thumb with all the pitfalls that Mfg.'s can create. Here is a more formal explanation from the designer of the O2. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-power.html
My recommendation for someone wanting to use aux outs as a wired IEM is to get a reasonably priced headphone amp such as the Behringer P1. Unfortunately you will have to wait a bit since none have been spotted on this planet ( per Starin). Millenium in Europe has a similar unit called a HA100 (34 euros) but reviews point out some issues such as turn on pops and of course no limiter. I haven't found any comparable unit specifically with balanced inputs. Does anyone know of any? Please post.
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WK154 does raise a legitimate concern regarding impedance mismatch here. We need to learn more from Mackie on potential damage to the DL using headphones directly from aux sends.
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I have been doing this for over a year now & hundreds of times. There has been absolutely no issues and the dl shows no signs of damage. There are others here who have done the same thing as well with no issues. Consider this a field test we have done for Mackie. And it passed.
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I ran across this product on another forum. OK Uli what's going on???
http://fischer-amps.de/uploads/media/Fischer-Amps-In_Ear_Hardware-2013.pdf
P1 a clone??
Here's another headphone amp as well.
https://elitecoreaudio.com/product/retail/elite-core-pma-personal-monitor-amplifier
with a MAP of $79
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People here are going to say not to do this because the auxes are no meant to bee used like this. Greg might give some technical reason. Ignore them all. It works and has been overly tested.
There are valid technical reasons to not do this as I had said a year ago on the Mackie forums, unless someone knows for a fact that the driver circuit in the aux sends are designed to handle low impedance loads. I'm not going to bother going into anymore since people are going to do what they're going to do even if there's potential to cause damage at some point.
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I agree. You won't find me using headphones directly plugged into the mixer anywhere except the headphone jack. (I really don't care if it works, it doesn't look like it was designed for that use.)
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The new QSC Touchmix actually was designed to deal with headphones on aux's. Low impedance outputs.
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If I had waited to go digital, that might make a difference in my life. By the time I go after a different mixer I'll probably be collecting Social Security. Anyway, that's good to know if anyone else is starting to look for a digital mixer now. Thanks for the heads up.
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This is the last I'll post on the topic of using a line output to drive headphones. The "official" word from Mackie support delivered to my inbox this morning:
Hey Greg,
So here's what we think: It's not supported, it's not recommended, it's probably not the best quality of sound you can get.
The output circuit can get damaged with improper use, and that is what we're concerned about. The aux sends have a 240Ω output impedance.
By plugging in such a low resistance headphone into the jack you are actually maxing out the output circuit of the aux send. Again I don't think it would hurt the mixer, it still isn't recommended.
I would suggest picking up a very cheap headphone amp and using that instead. There are 4 channel headphone amps for as cheap as 30 dollars.
Hope this helps,
Technical Support Team
MACKIE | AMPEG | CRATE | BLACKHEART
LOUD Technologies Inc.
16220 Wood-Red Rd. NE | Woodinville, WA 98072
Tech support: 800.898.3211
techmail@loudtechinc.com
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One of these days I'll wire up some 220 ohm resistors in series with the outputs and see if they can still drive the buds loud enough. That would be safe and only a small PITA :) .
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Greg our self-proclaimed Mackie field tester say's otherwise, what does Mackie Engineering or the rest of us know. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Wk I have plugged headphones in the auxs and used it perfectly many times. How's that multitrack recording coming for you?
Again I'll say it... It works. That's all I need to know. That's enough proof for me that it works...because it does. I'm not just spouting out technical information on why I think it should work. I just simply plugged in headphones with the adapter and, damn, it worked!
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Might be fine 999 times but on the 1000th it might "crap out" the desk.
I'm careful with all my gear, I'd rather be like that than face the embarrassment of something critical failing mid show.
Headphone amps aren't that expensive or space consuming either, why give yourself the worry?
Better safe than sorry IMHO.
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Even if one only made $150 a gig that's almost $150,000 before the dl "craps out". I would be ok with that. :lol:
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Until you apply 'sods law' which states "when there is a 1,000,000:1 chance of an item failing it will do so the first time it is used for something important" ;D
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Even if one only made $150 a gig that's almost $150,000 before the dl "craps out". I would be ok with that. :lol:
I see your point JL but I'd rather err on the side of caution :D
I've had a few mishaps over the years (mostly power outages) - when the rig goes off the seconds seem like minutes to me - I really hate it :facepalm: