Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: WK154 on January 23, 2014, 06:38:19 PM
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Just as I predicted the new Midas is the M32 a Midas incarnation of the X32. The obvious distinction being the name. The sampling rate goes to 24/192 but appears to be able be compatible with the S16 and P16. It will be interesting to see what expansion capabilities they may come up with. Here is the preliminary description/spec.
http://midasconsoles.com/Products/M32.html
Pricing will of course be interesting.
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http://midasconsoles.com/Products/M32.html
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You got 5K? Saw it at the NAMM show.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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The main advantage to the higher sampling rate would be latency reduction. I think the main difference is more robust faders, encoders and buttons. The sloped control center is probably better ergonomically. Other than that, I don't expect much performance difference between it and the X32. They probably sound identical.
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You got 5K? Saw it at the NAMM show.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I just converted my X32 to a XM32 with about $5.00. I never understood why designers don't get the control panel design until you get to $10K. I think Neve was one of the first to provide a reasonable control surface. I've been doing this for quite a few years tilting most consoles to have better control access. In this case about 20 degrees. Been spoiled by heads-up displays.
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You got 5K? Saw it at the NAMM show.
If that sucker's going for $5000 I'm selling everything I own & getting one.
I'm not ready to believe that's the case, this sucker has the "Midas" name on it
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f that sucker's going for $5000 I'm selling everything I own & getting one.
I'm not ready to believe that's the case, this sucker has the "Midas" name on it
If you want a real Midas instead of a Midinger, for a bit more you could step up to the Pro1. I believe they've lowered the price on those as well.
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http://www.midasconsoles.com/Products/PRO1CC-TP.aspx
It has only 24 mic pre's built in, but with AES50 stage boxes, you can go up to 48 mic ins with connectivity for up to 96 inputs. Probably 2x as much as the M32 to get it up to the same mic input count. But it's a real Midas ;)
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After a preliminary view of what is available on this product and clearly one of the transitional Behringer to Midas products for the MG (Music Group) where is the demarcation in $ for the MG products? $4K or $5K? Currently the M32 is in the $5K range. Will we see a compact version in the $4K range named Neutron? Based on the little information leaked this is my assessment of the product differences.
There is a clear difference in look. The faders are displayed in both the Midas and the Behringer sites and they are clearly different. The Midas unit looks far more robust. The preamps are different per Mfg. ad and sound different by others evaluation of the DL251's a more representative version of the preamps in the M32. It's quite clear that the control surface PCB's are different just from the visual. The output section may be the same physical layout but the boards can't be the same based on new preamps designs. That leaves the processing section which I have found no info on. Using the X32 as a baseline and comments from the developers leads me to this speculation. The X32 DSP's are 3rd gen parts and 4th gen (like the DL) are available as is the option to add more DSP's in the design (per developers). The main CPU is the bottom of the barrel in the FreeScale iMX series that goes up to 1 Gig+ with many additional feature. No dead end there. Memory can always be expanded to the addressing limits. It's clear to say that there are no interchangeable parts between the X32 and the M32. That leaves the software. This appears to be similar to the X32 and certainly does not require a re-write but certainly needs mods if for no other reason than the Logo and possible use of new hardware features. Conditional compile at best, common code base. Communications wise AES50 may initially be used but there is the HyperMac a technology that's been around for at least 10 yrs. (1 Gig Ethernet), again expanding performance. The M32 is a transitional product for the MG well placed for the Behringer crowd that want to go higher or satisfy riders and little change in the workflow.
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Did you see this WK?
http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/qu-24/
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Did you see this WK?
http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/qu-24/
About time they spend a little money on marketing. This at the ~$2800 price tag should be a good competitor for the X32. The QU 16 needs to go lower in price.
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I've been promised a qu16 for £1500 by my local dealer when I want to buy. Would be nice if it was a bit less though. Saw the qu24 preorder price of £2199.
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I've been promised a qu16 for £1500 by my local dealer when I want to buy. Would be nice if it was a bit less though. Saw the qu24 preorder price of £2199.
By today's exchange rate that's ~$2489 a bit high since Zzounds and Sweetwater sell it for $1999 that's £1205.
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Nasty nasty...
http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/MUSIC-Group-Reviews-E662385.htm
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Being an optimist (I know hard to believe) I hope he becomes Chairman of the Board and backs off. My take:
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion-440.html
Good luck Uli.
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I've been promised a qu16 for £1500 by my local dealer when I want to buy. Would be nice if it was a bit less though. Saw the qu24 preorder price of £2199.
By today's exchange rate that's ~$2489 a bit high since Zzounds and Sweetwater sell it for $1999 that's £1205.
Dammit, I'm going to have to bring an extra large suitcase on my next trip stateside :facepalm:
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I'm guessing but it's more than likely like Mackie were they won't honor the warranty in another country. :(
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I'm guessing but it's more than likely like Mackie were they won't honor the warranty in another country. :(
Hmm, good point.
With the 24 being released and the surge for the qu16 being satisfied, the 16 may drop in price a bit. I haven't received a price for the 24 from my local dealer, I only stumbled across this new mixer last night whilst browsing the A&H user forum.
Maybe with them being a UK company the warranty issue might be a little more user friendly?
Truth be told, it would be hard to go past the local guys if they were in the ballpark with their price. They offer great service and if anything goes wrong they're only a 10 min drive away. I would be very embarrassed leaving a broken brand new desk in with them i
bought elsewhere!
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I hear you and would do the same but you might explore how much of a margin they can give up. It's a two way street even if you drive on the wrong side of the road. :)
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I hear you and would do the same but you might explore how much of a margin they can give up. It's a two way street even if you drive on the wrong side of the road. :)
Not that old nugget again lolz!
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Here's an interesting combo coming up that may be of interest to Midas oriented folk. A X32 core at $799 and a DL153 16 in 8 out Midas box at $1429 and possibly cheaper once Starin get off their duff and adjusts pricing. The DL150 series will be made compatible with the X32, it's not there yet and I'd certainly wait for that event. You would have the legendary XL4 preamps with very similar software to the M32. It's a smaller mixer but ideal for a lot of applications in a 3U form for both (1U=core, 2U= DL153). At a $1000 premium over the X32 rack it's probably not going to bars.
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Further to our chat a month ago:
It's hard to take that a product (A&H QU-24) designed and made in the UK can be £500 ($830) cheaper in the US.
Unbelievable, and frankly, quite sickening:/
Nonsensically the AR2412 stage box is £110 more expensive stateside so that only leaves me £390 ($645) worse off comparatively.
You guys in the US are in electronic consumer heaven IMHO.
Back to the M32. On it's webpage it looks like they've removed the word "Behringer" from their FX descriptions/sources.....
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When did Midas have behringer I any of their descriptions? Why would they?
I never understood why a company charges more in the very country of development and production of a product. Cost is cost. And there is more cost involved to ship it across see. And they should have allegiance to their own country. It could be some kind of tax law?
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As far as I can recall......
When the M32 was launched, they were crediting the sources/algorithms for the FX on the M32 page. There were references to the Behringer name (amongst others) from the source units. I think at least the "Combinator" and "Edison" were/are Behringer units. That's if my memory serves me well, I might be mistaken but I don't think so. Why they did it is just marketing IMHO. Midas filters down nicely to promote Behringer products but not so much the other way, no matter how good the product is.
I'm baffled by the pricing, I'm sure tax plays a big part as you say. Regardless, it's pretty unfair to local customers. Maybe I should have sent a signal by not opening my wallet, but when you want/need something for a job, rational thinking takes a back seat. Marketing again undoubtedly dictates the European regional price, probably to keep it in line with other product lines and manufacturers here. There is a mentality that "more expensive equals better". I've been both victim and perpetrator of that myth.
Anyway, I take it you have your X-Rack all sorted and running the way you want it by now? Haven't been hands on with one yet but would consider one when the DL needs replaced ;)
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It's quite straight forward whether engineered in the UK, Germany or the south pole the units are manufactured in China. So manufacturing costs and parts costs along with shipping and import duty determine the sales price. Here in the US a lot of companies use the China manufacture of sub-assemblies and ship to Mexico for assembly and test then into a truck for a nice 10% or so extra margin (like Mackie). The Behringer logo was on a few of the add-in cards on the Midas web site. Are you certain that A&H manufacture in the UK?
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My MixWiz was built in China. (One of the good things coming out of there.) So was my trailer. (One of the not-so-good things coming out of there.) It's obvious that shipping costs aren't what they ought to be. It really should cost more to make things in China and ship them to the USA.
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Nope WK,
Says "designed and built in England" on the box I have.... for the QU24. The AR says "made in China" >:(
So the item made locally is more expensive than the Chinese made one. :facepalm:
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They have manufacturing in Cornwall UK and in China. I suspect that labor intensive low priced kit is made in China and high end in the UK. They may also work out kinks in the manufacturing first in the UK by engineering and then move it to China. Lots of manufacturing options.
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Yeah, sounds about right. I wonder where the US imported desks are coming from. Btw, what are you using for digi snakes - utp, sf utp, stp??
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Yeah, sounds about right. I wonder where the US imported desks are coming from. Btw, what are you using for digi snakes - utp, sf utp, stp??
For test just utp (cat6) for now. For a gig it would be STP. I don't need the S16 right now. Using the X32 as a control surface for Mixbus DAW. Mostly recording and mastering. I may do some select gigs down the road at which time I'll pick up a rack. This will give me 32 channels if needed. I just got a hell of a deal on the package I couldn't leave it on the table.
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FWIW, there have been some folks having sync problems with the S16 from static discharge infiltrating the line. It's not enough to have STP. The ends need to be terminated with Ethercon plugs with the shield tied to the shell to ensure static discharge gets shunted away from the signal wires. Apparently it's very unpleasant to have it happen during a show. Audio drops out, then crackles and pops whilst the resync occurs.
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I can never resist a good deal either - dammit! I'm an ad man's dream come true, my inner child won't let me walk away :/
A bargain I've actually seen over here is 50m of Belden sf/utp on a Schill reel for £150 (Thomann)
I know I could make one up myself but they only sell 300m rolls elsewhere. Getting raw cable (other than utp) is proving a little difficult in anything other than full rolls.
In another life the X-rack and X-32 would have been a great choice for me, especially the rack instead of a "dumb box" like the ar2412. I've been watching the Behringer forums and in fairness B' has been quick to swap out faulty units in the US. I just don't know if that would happen here in the UK. As I said a long time ago on the forum, my experience of B' service here in the UK was very poor, albeit quite some time ago. Regardless of whatever desk I have, I always carry a spare. I suppose either the x-rack or x32 would have been backup to each other so a savvy choice in that respect too. What I've bought is what I really wanted. It ticks all the boxes for me and if my previous experience with A&H mixers is anything to go by, it should be a good one. If it goes wrong, service /replacement is literally only minutes away should I need it!
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FWIW, there have been some folks having sync problems with the S16 from static discharge infiltrating the line. It's not enough to have STP. The ends need to be terminated with Ethercon plugs with the shield tied to the shell to ensure static discharge gets shunted away from the signal wires. Apparently it's very unpleasant to have it happen during a show. Audio drops out, then crackles and pops whilst the resync occurs.
Yup hooked in on that conversation. Not even sure that Midas has enough protection but is a lot more resistant.
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FWIW, there have been some folks having sync problems with the S16 from static discharge infiltrating the line. It's not enough to have STP. The ends need to be terminated with Ethercon plugs with the shield tied to the shell to ensure static discharge gets shunted away from the signal wires. Apparently it's very unpleasant to have it happen during a show. Audio drops out, then crackles and pops whilst the resync occurs.
Yup hooked in on that conversation. Not even sure that Midas has enough protection but is a lot more resistant.
I'd stumbled on to that thread or a similar one as well, I think double screen is the route I'll be taking. What about the Midas desks being more substantial mass wise as a reason they were more immune to problems given they shared similar network hardware. Is that a viable theory?
I'll buy that sf/utp reel I mentioned and search for raw cable to make up others. I have plenty of vanilla cable here too just in case.
I used my 24/8 multicore the weekend before last for the first time in ages and it was a wrestling session as expected. The DL had me spoilt for so long, it really was a nightmare running the multi again. It's a new show I'd taken on and although the A&H iPad app is okay, I needed real faders and to be down the room to make it sound right, so out came the multi. Two days later I ordered the AR but I baulked at the £600 asking price for an A&H digi-snake. I don't want the whole show let down by one cable, but I honestly can't see where the money/cost is in that cable. Intrinsically, how can it be 10 or 100x more expensive than TV coax or similar? Adding shielding or a flexible jacket to cat5e cable shouldn't inflate the price that much!!
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The reason is well understood AES papers on the subject (Bill Whitlock et. all.). The proper separation of safety ground (chassis ground) from signal ground is key. The basis for the pin one problem. WOW I just looked at what you added and it doubled the cost of your original Qu-2400 console. The 80ft cable is $399 and the 264 ft is $899 here. If I would make a cable I would use STP cat6 and Ethercon connectors. Cat 6 is better control of twists per inch and impedance match. Some claim to have the sync problem disappear with just cat 6 UTP. I would question that since it doesn't address the ground routing.
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I didn't buy the A&H cable WK - like I said, toooooo expensive! I bought the Belden sf/utp 50m one from Thomann, just waiting for it to be delivered. I'll maybe make up some cat6 leads like you've suggested. I don't plan to have any digital cable run under foot other than in floor protectors. Also found a place that sells Van Damme Tourcat in lengths, so I'll buy some of that as another very good backup solution.