Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Sanchinguy on March 16, 2014, 03:25:56 AM
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Hiya,
New here. My band is going to be playing a gig next weekend at a place we've never been before and it'll be our first gig with the 1608. I'm the bass player, and following the unwritten law, also own the PA and run sound.
My system is really basic - JBL PRX subs and tops, passive monitors powered by by a crown 1500 fed by an ART HQ231 (that I use to find/cut feedback). I also have a Lexicon mx200 that I can use.
The band is 5 pieces - 2 electric guitars, 1 acoustic guitar (to a DI to the board), bass, drums, female lead vocal, 4 male vocals, keys. We won't get to sound check the system until the day of the gig. I've tried to load the obvious presets, and set some basic reverb (short plate) and delay on the vocals, and tweaked the preset EQs a bit based on my experience with the group.
The bar/restaurant is fairly small, no dance floor, and is carpeted. The stage is very small (~9x11) and is surrounded by a 2' high solid wall. The owner has mentioned that they don't want us to be "too loud". Due to space limits and volume restraints, I'm planning on leaving the subs home. My bass rig and drummers kick will be plenty loud.
I'm wondering if any of my more experienced brethren here have any pointers or tips I can use to get closer to an acceptable mix in the time we'll have.
Many thanks,
Sanchinguy
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First time out with anything, take a back up. (In this case a mixer.) You probably won't need it, but it's a good habit, especially with new equipment that you haven't had time to really run through the ringer. My personal suggestion is to get the DL's 31 band EQ set to flatten the speaker response on the FOH and also the appropriate Aux EQ on the monitors. If there's a peak at 500 htz, cut that frequency back. You can't do this well at the restaurant, but you can do it at home using pink noise and an RTA. (Do the FOH separate from the monitors.) Systems that are set very flat allow the mics to be started at all flat while minimizing feedback. Channel EQ is the wrong place to control feedback. It is the right place to slightly modify the sound characteristics. (Little goes a long way.) Monitors should be prefader and possibly post esp. (The DL has both options.)
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Also, HPF all vocal mics. I use 100 htz, but 75 htz works too. (Exception is if you have a bass singer.) Piano/synth should be flat. Organ on a separate channel should be LPF at 5000 htz. (Organ only. If you have organ and piano/synth sounds on the same channel, go with the piano set up.) Compression is a personal thing. Like anything new, use it carefully.)
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I really can't think of anything that doesn't apply to any good mixer. If any in the band also have an ios device, make sure they have Master fader or My fader installed at least as a backup. They all have to be the same versions because a version change will push out a firmware update. You don't want that to happen at a show. And you will want time to test any changes. And play with new features.
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Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for.
The analog mixer (1642VLZ3) will be in the van. I already set the hpf on the vocals to ~100hz but hadn't thought about My Fader on my iPhone - great point! I'll be using pink noise/RTA to sort out the response curve today.
Any tips on initial gain settings? Or on how to get my band mates to actually sing/play during sound check the way they do when performing? ;)
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One small correction on RTA room acoustics. You can practice at home but don't expect it to be even close at the restaurant. You will need to do room eq on site before customers are there if possible. Set up all mics and have them on, then do room eq.
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Don't forget to check which screen you're on before adjusting faders - if you can, try to get into the habit of returning to the LR page once you adjusted your auxes ;)
It may take a few gigs to get comfy but it's worth the effort.
Using a new mixer out live is always a bit nerve wracking so stay calm & keep mixing :thu:
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RTA at the restaurant is the best way, but pink noise with customers is a bad option. The reason I do the RTA at home, is to bring the system closer to flat than they are without it. I'm running a driverack PX on my powered speakers so if the band is loud, I will run the anti-feedback at the club before a gig. That takes out the worst offending frequencies. Having a flat system before arriving is a great starting point, but unless you have separate 31 band EQ, any significant changes at the club to the 31 band EQ will throw the system out for anywhere else. Can I suggest, get the system flat at home using the 31 band EQ and save that. (So you can quickly recover it.) Then at the club, use only the 4 band EQ to tailor the system to the restaurant. (Gently please.) Note that when I setup my system at home, the speakers are placed at the mouth of the garage facing outwards and the reference mic is on a stand about 15 feet down the driveway. It's my answer to not having a room that swallows all sound. It minimizes reflective surfaces and improves the RTA results. (Better experience on a warm day.) If you have different speakers that you use for different types of gigs, you can go through all of them on the same day. Remember to do the monitors the same way you will be using them. On the floor aimed at the reference mic at the same location as you would have your face. There are amazing differences in the same speakers used at different locations. (I have monitors that I've occasionally used as mains. And my ZXA1 EVs get used as monitors from time to time.) I did my ZXA1s with matching subs this way and setup for bi-amp with the subs getting a separate feed, and mono subs with stereo satellites and I did one other way was just a stereo feed to each stack feeding the sub and satellite on each side. (Using my DriveRack PX.) I use all of them for different situations, but they sound exactly the same. (even though the EQs are somewhat different.) Anyway, the point is to fill your toolbox with tools that you can make use of down the road. Have a great gig. I've really enjoyed my DL and will be looking at whether to use it or the StudioLive 24.4.2 that's at my senior's variety show I do every spring. (In May.) The show's requirements might make using the virtual sliders too slow. Won't know until we start doing full rehearsals. (The fact that you need to scroll left and right to get to all the channels might be a problem too.)
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Thanks for the deeper dive on this. My RTA tools are limited to a couple iOS apps (FrequenSee and Octave) and it's about 15 degrees outside right now. I set things up in my finished basement and used pink noise from AudioTools into a channel on the DL and switched back and forth between the mains EQ and Octave to get things closer to flat I still have a slight hump around 250 hz and another smaller bump around 4k that wouldn't really go away, but it's better.
My v3 wishes now include:
Pink/white noise generator
RTA in the background of the 31 band EQs
Basic IPad music controls (track up and down, play, pause) on the main window
A basic faders-only view that would show all channels and the mains and aux's - there's room
There's a chance I'll be able to repeat this in the room - the place gets pretty dead in the mid afternoons - but I'll have to watch carefully.
Thanks again! I'll post an update after the gig.
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I created a monster here with some simple suggestions. First I did say that no customers is the best choice but pink noise is not the only way to remove standing room wave, reflections and IM product mic feedback. The goal here is not a flat response curve but to identify and reduce frequencies that will cause feedback using the output parametric's and graphic eq's. You'll find few if any house eq's flat. Use your ears for that. After looking at your description and requirements of your gig and the equipment you have I would venture a guess that your biggest problem would be the sound level. A five piece band in a small restaurant with the owner already concerned with loudness I would check the closest tables and keep the level below 85 dBSpl. Since you have AudioTools have someone give you a reading at the table as a reference for performance. Be sure to ask the owner about levels and I would err on the side of lower loudness. I also wouldn't worry too much about feedback in this case, carpet, bodies and probably drapes. Use the FFT before you start to identify any house issues HVAC etc. 1/24 octave 1 sec. decay, rest default and enable peak value on log display. Also far more useful than RTA unless your setting up a 1/3 oct. graphic eq.
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Why I the world are you worried about using an rta at a small low volume gig? That's the least of your concerns. Here is what you need to worry about. Turn down the amps, find the drummer some brushes, and try not to suck. The owner said he doesn't want it loud so that's the first thing to concentrate on. Then just worry about making everyone else there happy. That's how you get more gigs.
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Best advice I can give you is kill the compression on all your vocal channels. With it engaged, your levels will be too low and when you use the makeup gain to bring them back up, you're going to be in feedback hell.
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Got to disagree with you a bit on this. Like most effects, they need to be used carefully. I started using compression because of politicians and preachers. Preachers are the worst. They'll whisper and shout in the same sentence. I used compression to keep them from frying the audience's ears while raising the floor. Now for bands, I'd be unlikely to raise the floor, but I would use compression to start before the limiters kick in to soften the approach of the system's limitations. (I tend to run my system very close to the edge.) Better approach is to drop the volume down and don't get anywhere near needing compression or limiters. (My personal choice.)
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You can disagree, but I'm just going by my own personal experience and that of another forum member who was having feedback problems at a gig until I said "kill the compression on the vocals" and the problem was solved, instantly. Of course, the ambient acoustics, the kind of music volume you want to play at, will play a role, too. Your mileage may vary.
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Everyone's mileage varies! You've got to be cautious when running near the feedback edge. For some bands this is the only thing that keeps them from being louder! Good points as always.
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Thanks all, learning lots here.
We'll definitely try not to suck (and that can be a challenge for this band!). Overall spl around 85-90 db in the middle of the room is doable, bit will be a challenge for the lead singer and lead guitarist. Drummer's cool. I will use comp sparingly but may need to lean on the female singers channel a little harder as she can be a bit of a shouter.
Any point to using a gate on vocals? I'm thinking no, but I'm open to others thoughts.
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If your there as a show that would be fine if however your there for mood music you won't be back. I don't like to raise my voice to speak especially at a meal and as I said before err on lower that's far easier to overcome than it's too loud. Run it past the owner beforehand, everyone has their own perception of what is soft. No gates.
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We go on at 9:00, usually well past the dinner rush around here. They listened to our demo before the gig was committed, so they know what we do (sort of an old farts punk take on classic rock and pop tunes). Some things we cover faithfully, others we take considerable liberties with!
We'll definitely let them call the shots on volume - We'd like to come back!
Thanks again!
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Compression without makeup gain will act as a limiter and won't cause any more feedback than you would get without it on the channel. Adding compressor gain is a different story.... Different singers, different styles most I work with need limiting (and often compression) in a live environment.
I gate every mic channel, obviously at different thresholds, it'll help kill feedback and noise no matter what level you play at. If you're using mics on a kit use gates to keep them tight and clean. I'm sure your playing will be fine, I wouldn't be so ignorant as to tell you how to play. It's only the mannerisms of a minority of forum members here that "suck".
Have a good one :thu: :)
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You are going in with a very good attitude. I'm sure you'll do fine. Just one note. It's much easier for a quiet band to sound good at that level than for a loud band to drop their volume and sound good. (That was so clumsy, I'll try to say it again.) Bands that usually play at low volumes and sound good, can change volumes and still sound good. Bands that are usually loud and sound good, have a hellish time turning down and still sounding good. (Better to start low and get louder than to start loud and attempt to get lower.) It sounds like I'm just stumbling over my own words. Oh well. Knock them dead. (And don't forget to have some fun while doing it.)
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Thanks all, learning lots here.
We'll definitely try not to suck (and that can be a challenge for this band!). Overall spl around 85-90 db in the middle of the room is doable, bit will be a challenge for the lead singer and lead guitarist. Drummer's cool. I will use comp sparingly but may need to lean on the female singers channel a little harder as she can be a bit of a shouter.
Any point to using a gate on vocals? I'm thinking no, but I'm open to others thoughts.
A quiet drummer is a pearl beyond price, guitarists can by smaller amps (I use an 18 watt valve combo which sounds great at low volume) singers bass players and keyboards can be turned down, drummers have to just play more quietly which requires a change of style.
Have a great gig 8)
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You are going in with a very good attitude. I'm sure you'll do fine. Just one note. It's much easier for a quiet band to sound good at that level than for a loud band to drop their volume and sound good. (That was so clumsy, I'll try to say it again.) Bands that usually play at low volumes and sound good, can change volumes and still sound good. Bands that are usually loud and sound good, have a hellish time turning down and still sounding good. (Better to start low and get louder than to start loud and attempt to get lower.) It sounds like I'm just stumbling over my own words. Oh well. Knock them dead. (And don't forget to have some fun while doing it.)
Stumbling over your words or not you are still correct. In other words: it's easy to turn up, but harder to turn down.
I tell every drummer I work with, that uses an acoustic kit, that I need to be able to rehearse with them with no amp or mic. Just me and an acoustic. If I can do that then they are in. I love it when bar owners/managers complain that a band was too loud. I tell them it's usually because of a loud drummer. Loud drummers=loud bands. The majority of them are beaters. And of course bands turn up around the loudest source. I hate loud drummers. I play a several outdoor venues with noise restrictions. I went to one once after leaving something there. Had to pick it up the next night. The band was playing and all I could here was drums. I asked what the heck was going on. I was told that the band was too loud and they asked them to turn down. So they did. All you heard now was the stage noise. That noise would be the drummer. Now the band was playing but almost nothing was in the mains and they still asked them to turn down. Bar staff doesn't understand that stuff.
And a lot of times guitar players too get whiney. Whah, I can't hear myself. I had one of those two weeks ago. Kept trying to turn up his amp. It was a Mesa combo and he was standing over it. It was hitting his calves. So all I did was lean back the cabinet. Wow, that took a genius to figure out.
One time I had a bar owner actually tell me he was going to ask a solo act to not plug in his guitar because it was too loud. He thought he would just play his acoustic unplugged and vocals mic'd. Huh? I pointed out to the owner how bad that would sound, and not work. I had to explain that it's a solo act and nothing is coming from the stage, and he needs to tell the guy to turn down the volume. It was a total duh moment.
Point is Wynnd is correct that it's easier to turn up then down. I spent 6 years with a guy who played an electric kit at a lot of our venues. We had a lot of happy bar owners. And on a rare, yes rare, occasion we were actually asked to turn up. That's unheard of! Lol. The good thing about my drummer was that he knew how to play the acoustic kit quietly too. But at a small venue even some of the most quiet drummers are still too much.
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Have a friend who uses sticks at volumes where others have already moved to brushes. He now lives in the Dallas area. Not just low volume, he's a great drummer.
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This gig will be learning experience for everyone. The owners have recently reopened this business (it's changed hands several times over the last 20 years) and we will be the third live act they've ever had. The first was a very talented jazz/blues trio (keys, guitar, singer) and the second was a karaoke comedian (don't get me started) and then there's us...
There are two owners - a woman who manages and runs the day to day operations who seems pretty cool, and a guy who appears to be the "dirty hands" fixer but is also the money man and a bit of a jerk (he was trying to tell me how to set up the PA last time I was there). So, yeah...
Could be good, could be the gig from hell. Stay tuned... And thanks again!
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It sounds (no pun intended, well just a little ;) ) like you've been doing sound for sometime now and are very experienced at it. I am a pro musician (keys, etc.) and have many years of practical experience on analog boards, doing my own sound and the last few years running sound for schools, DJ'ing dances etc. Actually moving real faders is comfortable and easy, but I've just taken the plunge into the DL world. Haven't used it yet. But can't wait.
My advice, is to practice with Master Fader for a while on your undocked iPad and get used to it. I thought it would be very hard but it's not. Just rely on your experience, your ears and that's it! I used to sell keyboards years ago when there were actual operating manuals. I would tell customers to take the manual, throw it over your shoulder and just have fun with it! ;)
PS: Don't throw your iPad/MacBook/Laptop over your shoulder though... you won't be having fun after that!! :D
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Thanks. Entirely self-taught and learning through a series of unfortunate (and fortunate) events. As a band, we're only ok. Although it sounds arrogant as hell to say it, musically I'm probably the strongest person in the band. We like what we're doing and hope our enthusiasm and our music together will be enough. These people are friends, we're all old farts (I'm the second youngest and I'm 58) and no one is harboring any juvenile rock star illusions. Well, maybe except for the lead guitarist (some things never change, after all!)
I should probably find a better band if I want to become a better bassist, but this is still fun....
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A good place to start is the presets for each instrument and vox, but you will have work these to suit each one, HPF was one of the things I had to learn about on the vocals. Lead guitarist is one one side of stage and as the amp needs to be fairly loud I off set L/R to compensate.
Best of luck and let us know how you get on
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Be careful of the presets. I think they employ comps & gates, which you should turn off until you determine the need.
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Be careful of the presets. I think they employ comps & gates, which you should turn off until you determine the need.
A good point, they do and I usually turn both off to start with. The eq on presets is a very good starting point but the dynamics need big tweaks for each individual voice/instrument (they are, of course, very dependent on preamp gain too).
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Sanchinguy;
I have to admit to you that even after all my years of playing gigs (I'm 59 and started playing pro when I was 18) I still get butterflies before the event. This is even more so with a new piece of gear, such as the DL. Once I start the gig I start to enjoy what I am doing, either playing keys or running sound. Of course I always set up the new gear at home to make sure it powers up, works as expected and to make sure I know what I am doing with said new gear before the show. Hopefully to avoid an embarrassing moment or two. :facepalm:
Some wise pro that I once did a gig with said to me "If you don't get butterflies you don't perform to your potential"
I hope that my nerves mean that I do well every time? Anyway, to take my own advice and to reiterate to you, try to have fun just the same, even though you may just have to try a little, 'cause it does pay off!
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Well now...
Went to the venue tonight to check on a couple last minute details with the owners. It went something like this:
"Oh, hi. We meant to call you. The (insert local university basketball team here) is playing tomorrow night at the same time we committed to you. We don't want our customers to miss the game so we want to move you back to a midnight start and have you play until close. We'll still pay you what we agreed."
To make a long story short, we're not playing tomorrow and have a promise to reschedule "soon". I tried to make it clear that we did a lot of promo based on their commitment and couldn't guarantee that we'd be as effective the next time. He shrugged.
Yeah, I've done this a long time and have had lots of these experiences, but damn it's still frustrating every time...
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Bummer! Been there, done that. On the other hand, at least they aren't canceling outright. Places to play do need to be treated with enough flexibility just so they don't stop having bands.
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Kinda related - the biggest local venue now has DJ's on Friday nights and had a couple people stabbed last night :facepalm: .
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I hear ya. Same sort of thing happens here all over the place. Lots of DJ work, but if you want to gig regularly in this town you'd better be a metal band playing one set shows with several other bands or a blues band playing Mustang Sally. There's a couple of places near the college that do the indie singer songwriter emo thing and that's about it.
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If I never play Mustang Sally again, it will be too soon. I was complaining about playing it to bandmates a number of years ago before going back to W.Va for Christmas. While I was in Morgantown, I stopped to see a few bands and ended up seeing two bands play Mustang Sally. I've really had enough of that song.
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If I never play Mustang Sally again[...]
I actually learned that just a month ago and Brown Eyed Girl last fall so I have a ways to go before I'm sick of them ;) . I've historically played only with female singers and stopped playing for 25 years back in the early 80's so never played "classic rock" until recently - it was all new back then LOL.
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I played classic rock when they were still on Billboard's top 100 charts. There is an advantage to not having played them too much already, but I'm betting you don't go 2 years without getting tired of them. (Especially true if you play them every single gig and play out quite a bit.)
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When we last left our errant old farts rock band, we were learning that our gig was cancelled... Since then, things have become even more... um, interesting...
On the positive side, the venue called us back in a couple of days and offered to reschedule, which was nice. Then I had the devils own time getting my bandmates to agree on a date. That finally got done and we confirmed the new date. So at this point things seemed pretty cool.
Alas, that proved to be a false sense of security. At our next rehearsal, our drummer announces that he's going to go in for major orthopedic surgery to have his (really awful) ankles rebuilt. We all recognized his difficulties and were supportive. Then, he tells us he's going to have the surgery before the gig and will be unable to play for the next 6 to 12 months. Oh....
We've managed to find a sub (a great player) for the gig, but he's made it abundantly clear that he will only play this one gig. I gave him our set lists and some reference recordings last Friday and he nailed the first two sets at rehearsal on Wednesday, getting all of our arrangements right. Like I said, he's good. He plays a high end Roland e-drum kit so volume is easily managed.
So, we're set for the gig, but also facing the challenge of finding another drummer who will fit into this admittedly odd situation. Sigh...
A question for anybody still reading - I originally planned to leave the sub home given the volume limitations for this gig, but I'm now wondering if that's wise. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Sanchinguy
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With an acoustic kit you could have probably left it home but with the e-drums I'd say you should bring it, if only to put the kick through it.
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Sanchi you could leave the sub at home but then what will you do about drums? Not using drums could help with the volume. (Let's see who get this)
In regards to a subwoofer I would bring it. Subs don't make things louder, turning up the volume does. Adding a sub can make the overall sound better. Whenever I have a new gig I always bring a sub. (Except strictly acoustic gigs) I get a warmer all around tone. Once the gig is secured I might not bring a sub if I don't think I really need it.
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+1 for a sub, the volume control works both ways. I often find myself turning the sub down but just a little can add some depth to the overall sound. It also reduces the load on the tops by taking the energy heavy lowest frequencies leaving the top's low/mid amp with a bit more headroom.
I even use mine on acoustic gigs but the drummer does have a cajon and a stopmer :lol:
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You are going in with a very good attitude. I'm sure you'll do fine. Just one note. It's much easier for a quiet band to sound good at that level than for a loud band to drop their volume and sound good. (That was so clumsy, I'll try to say it again.) Bands that usually play at low volumes and sound good, can change volumes and still sound good. Bands that are usually loud and sound good, have a hellish time turning down and still sounding good. (Better to start low and get louder than to start loud and attempt to get lower.) It sounds like I'm just stumbling over my own words. Oh well. Knock them dead. (And don't forget to have some fun while doing it.)
Stumbling over your words or not you are still correct. In other words: it's easy to turn up, but harder to turn down.
I tell every drummer I work with, that uses an acoustic kit, that I need to be able to rehearse with them with no amp or mic. Just me and an acoustic. If I can do that then they are in. I love it when bar owners/managers complain that a band was too loud. I tell them it's usually because of a loud drummer. Loud drummers=loud bands. The majority of them are beaters. And of course bands turn up around the loudest source. I hate loud drummers. I play a several outdoor venues with noise restrictions. I went to one once after leaving something there. Had to pick it up the next night. The band was playing and all I could here was drums. I asked what the heck was going on. I was told that the band was too loud and they asked them to turn down. So they did. All you heard now was the stage noise. That noise would be the drummer. Now the band was playing but almost nothing was in the mains and they still asked them to turn down. Bar staff doesn't understand that stuff.
And a lot of times guitar players too get whiney. Whah, I can't hear myself. I had one of those two weeks ago. Kept trying to turn up his amp. It was a Mesa combo and he was standing over it. It was hitting his calves. So all I did was lean back the cabinet. Wow, that took a genius to figure out.
One time I had a bar owner actually tell me he was going to ask a solo act to not plug in his guitar because it was too loud. He thought he would just play his acoustic unplugged and vocals mic'd. Huh? I pointed out to the owner how bad that would sound, and not work. I had to explain that it's a solo act and nothing is coming from the stage, and he needs to tell the guy to turn down the volume. It was a total duh moment.
Point is Wynnd is correct that it's easier to turn up then down. I spent 6 years with a guy who played an electric kit at a lot of our venues. We had a lot of happy bar owners. And on a rare, yes rare, occasion we were actually asked to turn up. That's unheard of! Lol. The good thing about my drummer was that he knew how to play the acoustic kit quietly too. But at a small venue even some of the most quiet drummers are still too much.
Wow does that hit home. I suffered with a loud drummer for years. I almost quit several times. I tried drum shields but what a royal pain in the ass to lug around, set up and take down. Then he bought an e kit. I can't tell you how much better we sound. That along with the DL is fantastic. I have one guitar player who is still fighting going digital. He harbors serious prejudice against anything digital :-/. I would really like some advice on how to convince this guy.
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By digital I am assuming you are referring to the guitarists pedal board. The only reason I would ever go digital is if I had way to many pedals. Something like a line 6 hd500 is an amazing piece of kit. M13s are great too. All depends on what sounds and effects he is looking for.
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No sorry I meant going from an anolog mixer to the DL and from acoustic drums to electronic.
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I can't hear a difference between my MixWiz and the DL as far as quality of sound. The DL has a lot of tools that the MixWiz doesn't and in spite of being much smaller, it's a better tool. (As long as everything is working. I haven't been having problems, but some owners are having trouble.) That said, the MixWiz was a great workhorse and never did anything bad. (Most people's experience. Mine too.) I suppose that if you had perfect 18 year old undamaged hearing, you might be able to tell the difference. (Just guessing here, but I honestly can't tell the difference.) Or maybe not. Don't know what else to say to your band skeptic outside of waiting for my Hartke to get back from the shop.
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Thanks for the input, guys. The sub is going in the van. The drummer uses his own powered speaker but we can run a separate feed to the board for FOH. Now, if anyone's got any tips on finding a drummer, I'm all ears!