Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: Wynnd on June 24, 2014, 09:08:32 AM
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Friday, my Airport Express expired. (Replaced under warranty.) and Saturday my DriveRack PX froze at rehearsal. (Reboot fixed that.) So in my life, right now, the DL1608 is one of my system's highlights. Of course when the WiFi dies, you always think of the mixer as being the problem. (Bought both at about the same time last Sept.)
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That sucks. These things do happen at the most unfortunate times, sometimes. At least the router was replaced under warranty and a reboot fixed the DriveRack. Glad you were able to get up and running. ;)
At the last concert, my wireless SM58 decided to die in the middle of a speech. Of course, I thought that the batteries were still good from the last gig. Should've just put in a new pair, which I forgot to bring. :facepalm: Should've known better! ::) And yes, my first thought was the DL. :-[ But I did actually have a cabled SM58 backup just in case.
Of all the things I have ever lost in my lifetime, I miss my mind the most. :P
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A cabled mic is always a good idea for any mission critical wireless mics. In my wireless mic box, Shure one that came with a wireless system, I have a hand held, a body pack, a headset for the body pack and a guitar cord for the body pack and 5 pairs of NiMH AA batteries. I rotate the batteries so I'm always using the oldest charged ones, but I use at least one pair every week and usually use two. At the end of rehearsal or a gig, I leave the mic/bodypack on so it will run the batteries down. Then I place the discharged batteries in my charger the next day and move all the batteries around for the next use. Been doing it this way for quite a while, and so far the batteries in my mic case rarely fail. (And the charger catches any that will no longer charge.) I'm consistently getting at least 5 hours use on charged NiMH batteries. (I hate throwing batteries away and this way I don't have to as much. The fact that it's the cheapest way of using batteries doesn't hurt either.)
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Rechargeable batteries for the mic are certainly a better way to go and in the long run cheaper than buying regular AA alkaline batteries all the time. Thank you for sharing your experience and tip about the batteries. I am going to invest in some rechargeables before the next gig. 8)
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Here is my experience with NiMH with my wife's daily use at school. I would keep her on a limited 6 batteries (3 cycles) with a Alkaline backup just in case. That worked fairly well as long as she maintained the charging cycle and it ran $.0045 per battery vs. $.25 for Alkaline of the longer charge retention type (lower total power 2100mAh). Of course I got the usual "I was to busy" excuse and we went thru a bunch of Alkaline's over the years. This was with a Sennheiser EW100 series body pack.
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I don't carry Alkaline AA batteries anymore. I do keep my charged NiMH in my wireless mic case, so if I forget the batteries, I will have forgotten the wireless mics anyway.
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That's fine if you have a rigorous routine for charging batteries in place. Some of us might forget to charge them. There is one other problem with NiMH and that is their discharge curve, it's flat until near the end so low battery circuits have trouble giving you enough warning. The newer gear is better on this, most of the older equipment was set up for Alkaline.
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I always use Duracell 'Procell' batteries in wireless mics (and box fresh for every show), the cost of 50 pence per mic per show is well worth the peace of mind.
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:thu: Same here Sam for any show. If I know it's going over 6 hrs. I'll go for Lithium's. I've had NiMH's go out on me in 4 hrs. and scrambling to replace them is no fun.
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I always use Duracell 'Procell' batteries in wireless mics (and box fresh for every show), the cost of 50 pence per mic per show is well worth the peace of mind.
Two Lidl "Aerocell" alkaline AA's do over six hours (or three gigs) in our Sennheiser G3 mics (if you're ever stuck) - around £2.70 for eight batteries Sam.
BTW, where do you get Procells from, I saw them used at an open air gig I was working at last weekend?
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Unbranded alkaline batteries are very variable in quality, Lidl will buy from the cheapest source any given week/month and haves their own brand stuck on. Duracell/Procell are likely to be consistent and at 22p each they're cheaper than Lidl ;D. Buy them here http://www.buyabattery.co.uk/batteries/aa-batteries/procell-aa-batteries-box-of-100-bulk-duracell-procell.html
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Alkaline, Lithium or Rechargeables? I guess it's a matter of preference, availability and price. I've been using the Duracell Quantum alkaline batteries. As long as I remember to bring them. :facepalm: A 10 pack at Walmart goes for $12.47 Canadian. Duracell Ion Core NiMH 4 pack is $18.97 minus the charger and to quote Walmart:
"They are guaranteed to last for 5 years and, with Duralock Power Preserve Technology, they’ll hold a charge for up to 1 year when not in use. These powerful NiMH batteries work in any NiMH charger and you can recharge them up to 400 times."
In the real world I guess YMMV? :-\
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Might want to check this comparison out.
http://www.batteryshowdown.com/results-lo.html
Marketing at work again.
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Interesting, so it appears that the battery type has more bearing on the life than the brand (but we already knew that Lithium have more capacity than zinc carbon). You may well be right WK but I'd still expect the Duracell/Energiser type branded batteries to be more reliable (i.e. fewer rogue/faulty units) than 'cheap' ones and if you buy Procell in bulk they cost less than cheapies bought retail anyway.
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"Verrrrry interesting" :P I guess just use the ones you are currently (sorry no pun intended) getting the best results from and that are cost effective. As long as the cost of the batteries doesn't surpass the cost of your mics, etc. ;)
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Actually brand has a lot to do with it. Notice the Duracell Copper-top outlasts the more expensive Quantum. The Costco and IKEA do quite well compared to the name brands. The difference in chemistry should be no surprise. The discharge curve has a significant bearing on life, some equipment can run at 0.9V others will die at 1.1V that could mean a couple of hrs.
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I hadn't really thought about the charging aspect of NiMH. I don't have much trouble with making sure the batteries get charged and I carry enough to run two shows without charging anything and still have an extra pair. These are all good points. (I hate the 9 volt NiMH. Maybe some day, but not today.)
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Procell batteries are so cheap that I prefer peace of mind over saving a few pence. Even with 4 or 5 wireless mics the cost of batteries is less than a fiver per show, if that's a deal breaker you are in the wrong business.
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I don't mind saving money, but I hate throwing things away when there is another choice. Right now the band is rehearsing more than it's gigging out and the rehearsals are long enough that if the rechargeables were a problem, it would show up there long before showing up at a gig. I fire them up before rehearsal and leave them on all the time. No problem. (Or at least a LOT FEWER problems than most guitarists have with broken strings. By the way, I've never broken a bass string and I'm getting the impression that's a bit rare for someone who has been playing bass since 1972.)
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Agreed Wynnd, I wouldn't have a problem using rechargeables on my own band rehearsals were it not for the fact that I won't use wireless with my bands (it's an un-necessary complication which adds nothing to our show) but if I'm working for someone else, especially with large numbers of wireless mics (15 on Sweeney Todd) charging them would be a nightmare and the cost is passed on to the client anyway.
I'm a guitar player who almost never breaks strings BTW :)
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The way I do my wireless is better than wired. I have the receivers mounted in my mixing stack and already wired up. So toss the batteries in the mic and turn it on. Pretty easy to live with and about 2 minutes quicker than a wired mic. Now 15 wireless mics can be a handful if you need to hook them up to the mixer every show. (The situation of my Senior's variety show. got that down to about 4 minutes for connecting the 14 color coded receivers.)
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My experience with rechargeable batteries in wireless mics is that the two don't mix. New rechargeable don't last as long as standard batteries and aged ones can avalanche to low output unexpectedly and ruin a show. And no two rechargeables in the same batch seem to age at the same rate. Some start losing charge holding ability very fast. We had a local theater company here insist on trying them in their AT and Sennheiser headset packs and it was a disaster. And this was after months of experimenting during rehearsals with different brands of high end rechargeables. As sound designer, I finally insisted that they only use ProCell batteries from then on and to throw them away after every single performance. They agreed after several embarrassments. You can't fuck around with batteries in mission critical situations IMO.
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My experience with rechargeable batteries in wireless mics is that the two don't mix. New rechargeable don't last as long as standard batteries and aged ones can avalanche to low output unexpectedly and ruin a show. And no two rechargeables in the same batch seem to age at the same rate. Some start losing charge holding ability very fast. We had a local theater company here insist on trying them in their AT and Sennheiser headset packs and it was a disasters. And this was after months of experimenting during rehearsals with different brands of high end rechargeables. As sound designer, I finally insisted that they only use ProCell batteries from then on and throw them away after every single performance. They agreed after several embarrassments. You can't fuck around with batteries in mission critical situations IMO.
And the used ones will keep the crew in TV remote batteries for the rest of the year 8)
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One more thing. You have to keep alkalines in the original box or battery holder to prevent shorting.
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The same applies to rechargeable's (I have experienced the hot feel of a shorted PP3 in my change pocket only once, the much deformed battery still works, surprisingly), but, where else would you keep them anyway?
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I bought some AA battery boxes at "The Container Store". They have a double layer version with a moveable divider and a single layer with built in dividers. (I use the single layer version in my mic box.) I've got something similar for my AAAs but they power my remotes at home.
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Sounds good, it would hold pro cells too, though as I was using box fresh batteries for every show it was simple enough to keep them in the box until use and discard them into a bucket at the end of the show. The used batteries were available for cast and crew to help themselves, batteries in mic transmitters were always changed by me or my assistant before every night/show (two shows on Saturday).
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My experience with rechargeable batteries in wireless mics is that the two don't mix. New rechargeable don't last as long as standard batteries and aged ones can avalanche to low output unexpectedly and ruin a show. And no two rechargeables in the same batch seem to age at the same rate. Some start losing charge holding ability very fast. We had a local theater company here insist on trying them in their AT and Sennheiser headset packs and it was a disaster. And this was after months of experimenting during rehearsals with different brands of high end rechargeables. As sound designer, I finally insisted that they only use ProCell batteries from then on and to throw them away after every single performance. They agreed after several embarrassments. You can't fuck around with batteries in mission critical situations IMO.
My experience exactly for shows single use and toss. In my wife's case however in a non-mission critical classroom application, cost was the overriding factor. With a difference of 10:1 in price for quality NiMH : Alkaline break even for a 180 day school year was a no-brainer. The bigger problem was the attrition rate of batteries, the ones with legs for all those important electronic toys. The important thing with NiMH is to have a quality charger that can cycle and break in new ones such as a Maha MH-C9000 (~$50). The cheap ones are worthless. My wife retired before the batteries (~4 yrs use) and going.
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Another consideration of useless rechargeable batteries. AA batteries are 1.5 volts each, rechargeable AA batteries are only 1.2 volts, so a rechargeable can not compete for performance and run time.
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Might want to look at this first before drawing that conclusion.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf
http://www.batteryshowdown.com/results-lo.html
http://www.foxhunt.com.au/misc/batteries/aa_batteries.pdf
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You're right about run time, but you're incorrect about performance. The 1.2 volt batteries also have less internal resistance, so they flow more current at 1.2 volts than the 1.5 volt alkaline batteries. Basic Ohms law involves resistance, voltage and amperage. Can't just look at one without considering the other two. Now I have found some devices that won't work at the lower voltage and in those cases, the NiMH just don't work. I still hate throwing batteries away.
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Another consideration of useless rechargeable batteries. AA batteries are 1.5 volts each, rechargeable AA batteries are only 1.2 volts, so a rechargeable can not compete for performance and run time.
Not my experience over many years and brands. As I stated the NiMH actually lasted slightly longer in the Sennheiser EW100 body pack ~180 mAh drain than the alkalines. Most quality Alkalines are 1900 mAh to 2000 mAh rated and NiMH are in the 2100 mAh to 2700 mAh rating. Life will depend significantly on drain and at high drain NiMH wins hands down. In long term usage such as flashlights Alkalines are king.
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Accepting the technical performance of NiMH batteries for wireless mics it's the human element that lets the side down. The superiority of NiMH batteries entirely depends on a rigid adherence to a charge/discharge procedure and religious monitoring of usage. Old NiMHs become unreliable and part charged batteries can be a problem too if mistakes are made in the management scheme. Also, for theatre use with multiple mics keeping up with charging 30+ AA batteries per show would be extremely difficult especially on a touring show.
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Very valid points. We shouldn't be discouraging those that don't have a problem with making sure they've been charged recently and discharged very completely before charging. Outside of frequently having to find alkaline batteries and willingness to pay more per use, there isn't much of a downside to single use batteries. (And every grocery store and 7-11 has them in stock.)
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Equally good point. :) I agree for non critical use or if you only run one or two wireless mics NiMHs are the way to go (and I do use them myself in that context).
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Sam :thu: the very reason that I use Alkalines for performances with only 6 mics (12 batteries) was that it would take 3 charging cycles to refresh the NiMH's, usually 2 days. For $3 per show for Alkalines it made little sense. Had I a charger to handle 12 at a time I might have had a different approach, but handling both audio and video per show I had my hands full with camera batteries and other issues. Like you stated "the human element".
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I've seen chargers that handle more batteries. I like the third charger I bought. It catches batteries that need to be retired, can charge a single pair in about 90 minutes. The earlier chargers weren't so good. (Though my first is the only one with a NiMH 9 volt connector on it.)