Cacophony Forums

Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: iBloke on July 22, 2014, 07:01:47 AM

Title: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on July 22, 2014, 07:01:47 AM
I've decided to start a new thread about this issue for several reasons.
Firstly here's where the new DL experience started to turn to crap for me http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=687.msg6639#msg6639

I have to mention I've been both a super moderator on various motorcycle and music forum before.
I've also spent a lot of time "steering the bus" as an admin on another music forum that uses the same "simple machines" forum software as this fine place.
So I'm fully aware of the "do a search it's been answered before" and "but you already had a thread about this why start a new one" posts from other forum members

My reason for a new thread is because of 2 things.
My replacement DL1608 also suffers from the white noise issue when playing music from the docked iPad, although no where near as much as my first one.
The new DL is also MUCH quieter in operations than the first one, as far as background hiss goes.

I've so far sent 3 emails to mackie about the issues with my first DL.

The first one was a simple bug report.

The second one I directed to Ben Olswang using the email address supplied to me here by the incredibly helpful member WK154, who has been helpful beyond what anybody could hope for, and I have the utmost respect him.

I sent a third email to Ben Olswang a few days ago expressing my extreme disappointment not only in mackie's complete lack of customer service, but also for ignoring a GLARING problem a LOT of DL owners are experiencing.
I made it clear to him that by his complete lack of of acknowledgement of my emails I regard both him and Mackie as ignorant.

I don't like being fobbed off.

Anyway both WK154 and I have both had recent emails ignored by this once great great company.

To my surprise I received an email last night directly from Ben Olswang, firstly making an apology for not replying to my emails, and secondly apologising for not yet having a resolution to the white noise problem that, "While it seems wide spread, it actually is very hard to reproduce on demand and does not occur for every user and every system." <-- his words.

Well duh! If it occurred for every user on every system mackie may well take it more seriously.

Anyway at least he hasn't denied it's existence.

..I still haven't decided whether I should take his apology seriously, or take it as a more polite way of being "fobbed off" ..
I need to give that some more thought. I've forwarded the emails to WK154 and am awaiting some consultation with him as to how to go forward.

But the reality right now is if someone dropped enough money in my hands to throw the DL in the garbage and buy an Allen & Heath QU-16 http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/qu-16/ I'd jump at the opportunity and wash my hands of mackie forever.

I've been following the "For all the naysayers,, I love this board" thread here http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=696.0
I've seen it all before on other music forums. Someone piles the hate on because they got a piece of crap from some company.
Someone else counters with a thread about how happy they are with the same product and can't understand where the "naysayers" are coming from.


Here's the thing. The live music industry is NOT like a regular job where you can ring in sick, or your car broke down and ya just can't get to work on time..or at all, or somebody in your family died ..or whatever.
The show must go on!
That's just the way it works!

So if you are hired to supply audio gear, and/or a service in the entertainment industry, you need to make damn sure you can honour your commitment!

I've been able to honour ALL my 1000+ commitments over the past 27 years. Even when I suffered from a ruptured disk in my lower back a couple of times my colleges and good friends fronted up to do all the heavy lifting for me. Because they also understood that "the show must go on"

I've always chosen my audio gear carefully because I can't afford to have "shit go wrong" in the middle of a gig.

I should have taken more seriously the myriads of bad mackie reviews I read while researching this DL1608 abomination. ...my mistake..

I didn't. Now I'm paying the price.

The mackie DL1608 owners who refer to me as a "naysayer" would be wise to have a think about how they would feel under my circumstances.

Potential new Mackie DL1604 purchasers would also be wise to consider the consequences of using a buggy digital mixer.
The mixer is pretty much the central hub of a live gig. Broken mixer = no gig

Take a backup mixer!

I'll be doing that until I can afford the jump back to a Allen & Heath, which is a brand I can trust!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Jerrylee on July 22, 2014, 02:55:56 PM
I just dropped $45k plus on a set of foh speakers. And if I still had a dl I would tust it just fine to go with my system. I never had an issue with the dl. I just outgrew it. And I never used my iPad docked.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 22, 2014, 04:05:50 PM
Mind telling what you bought speaker wise?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Jerrylee on July 22, 2014, 04:24:33 PM
I bought a db technologies array setup. Total of 8 Dva t8s 4 t12s and 4 s20dp subs. I still have my other Foh system which is 4 qsc kw153s with 4 kw181s. And for now I am keeping the 4 k10s, 2 k12s and 1 ksub that I use for monitors. I've also used a k12 as a center fill. Eventually I will buy the db tech monitors to go with the system. But for now I just needed a bigger Foh system. I'll probably keep the kw153s for stage and side fills. Haven't decided what to do with them yet.

I got a lucky contract that included at least 6 sound gigs ranging from 5-25k. Also includes a few national act concerts. And my band will be playing in a lot of them. I'm double dipping. I went way overboard with my purchase but with all these speakers I can have many different types of setups. I may only use the full set once or twice for the contract I have now.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 22, 2014, 04:49:20 PM
Very impressive, I heard a demo of a DVA system and it sounded great. That's a lot of boxes for someone to hump around:)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Jerrylee on July 22, 2014, 05:17:14 PM
Yes it is a lot to hump around. Especially when 90%+ of the time I am doing it all on my own. Now I may have to bring in someone to help move everything around. Especially the subs. But wheels and a trailer with a ramp will help tons. I will only be ground stacking so I can still do a lot on my own. When and if I decide to fly the system my prices go way up. Eventually I plan on buying the db technologies flying rig.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 22, 2014, 05:59:39 PM
I can't remember the name of them but the same dealer that had the DVA rig had another rig flown from a set of ground stands - a very impressive set of stands they were too. Like a counterbalance system, the price of a PA for them alone. 
The DVA subs are bulky alright, fair play to you working with them on your own.
I take it upstairs gigs will be a thing of the past now......?
You know what's coming next....
You're going to have to buy a desk with proper faders for that rig, I can guess what it'll be ;)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on July 22, 2014, 08:13:07 PM
What this all boils down to, is what ARE we willing to accept when we buy new products and not just audio gear. This happens everywhere. Manufacturers know that their products have issues, but just don’t care anymore. Money is the key factor.

We shouldn’t have to “hope that our $1000.00 or $100.00 piece of gear is going to work every time” It should work all the time. I don’t care who makes it. I’m sure Mackie has known about these issues from day one when the first DL came off the line. If we always say, “I know this happens, but that’s okay, I can ignore that glitch if I do or don’t do this” What does that say about us as consumers?

We all like to bash and bitch about stuff, myself included, but why can’t we put all our animosity towards the manufacturers and each other into more creative ways to force not only Mackie, but all the other manufacturers out there to smarten up and concentrate on quality control and customer satisfaction instead? I think if enough people started to complain more often some things may change.

I'm sure someone out there will say that there’s never enough time to do anything anymore, why should I worry? Well there’s your answer in a nut shell. I guess we’ll all keep on complaining until the cows come home, or whatever!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: sam.spoons on July 22, 2014, 08:16:50 PM
I seem to remember some bloke called Ralph Nader taking the US motor industry to task for continuing to sell cars which crashed and caught fire 'cos it was cheaper to pay the compensation than redesign the car.....
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 22, 2014, 08:57:44 PM
What this all boils down to, is what ARE we willing to accept when we buy new products and not just audio gear. This happens everywhere. Manufacturers know that their products have issues, but just don’t care anymore. Money is the key factor.

We shouldn’t have to “hope that our $1000.00 or $100.00 piece of gear is going to work every time” It should work all the time. I don’t care who makes it. I’m sure Mackie has known about these issues from day one when the first DL came off the line. If we always say, “I know this happens, but that’s okay, I can ignore that glitch if I do or don’t do this” What does that say about us as consumers?

We all like to bash and bitch about stuff, myself included, but why can’t we put all our animosity towards the manufacturers and each other into more creative ways to force not only Mackie, but all the other manufacturers out there to smarten up and concentrate on quality control and customer satisfaction instead? I think if enough people started to complain more often some things may change.

I'm sure someone out there will say that there’s never enough time to do anything anymore, why should I worry? Well there’s your answer in a nut shell. I guess we’ll all keep on complaining until the cows come home, or whatever!

Hang on a moment.
Can't really say Mackie are complicit in selling faulty goods as nobody has definitively proved the DL is at fault in this issue.
IMHO the biggest variable here is customers' iPads and the software they have on them, not faulty manufacturing or design.
Going with the consensus my DL must be faulty because I have never experienced the white noise issue - what makes mine so different?
I think it's so random Mackie can't even get a handle on it to see how they can address it, their fault or not.
Unless a customer is willing to send their "faulty" DL and iPad back to Mackie, I think it will take a long time to be fixed.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: sam.spoons on July 22, 2014, 09:04:39 PM
As I've said mine has been faultless but there are enough duff ones out there (a pal of mine from just up the road inManchester has bought one which exhibits exactly this issue), surely when a customer returns a faulty one it's not beyond the wit of the dealer to send the faulty unit back to Mackie with an appropriate report?

If all those who have the "White Noise" problem will post details, (serial number of DL, date purchased, iPad model, iOS and MF versions) it should become obvious if a specific combination of iPad/iOS/DL/MF is most susceptible.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 22, 2014, 09:44:10 PM
Hey Sam,
Don't supposed you ever considered a dl swap with your pal just to see what would happen?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on July 22, 2014, 10:17:43 PM
Robbo this is from the Headmasters office, JL is correct in and I must quote him " It's getting old. Sorry that the truth hurts. ". Yes and you JL can't handle the truth!! Kindly explain this test results:

    Quote from: WK154 on July 09, 2014, 08:19:57 AM

        The reason that the iPad is the least likely source of the white noise is that all the music docking stations would have similar problems, none are reported AFAIK. It's easy enough to test when the noise happens un-dock the iPad and listen. Does the local speaker have noise or music?

iBloke
    Yep removing the iPad didn't stop the noise when I tried that.
WK154
OK was the noise out of the DL or out of the iPad's built-in speakers?
iBloke
The noise was out of the PA, not the iPad speakers. I shut it down really quickly coz it was waaaay loud.

So that leaves ESP from the iPad to the DL for audio.  >:D A new Mackie innovation. Rumor has it that the DL was designed by Aliens and we now have to wait upon their return for a fix.  :lol:

When a company makes a requirement that in order for proper use of their product you need another (iPad) then it behooves that company to make it work. Statements like this " The white noise problem is NOT A MACKIE ISSUE.. are naive at best. The 3 rules in the supply chain process are 1. NO SINGLE SOURCE. 2. NO SINGLE SOURCE. 3. NO SINGLE SOURCE. Those that violate these rules ultimately pay the price.
 

Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 22, 2014, 11:45:56 PM
Sorry WK, the dog ate my homework:/

I'm not saying who is to blame and I never said who wasn't to blame either! (check my post)
I just made another suggestion as to what might be the cause.
No disrespect to you or iBloke, but the results of your "extensive" field test are hardly definitive. ;)

Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that the white noise could be triggered by the iPad?
Once triggered, undocking the iPad has no further effect on whatever it has done to the DL - now the dominos are dropping, the ball is rolling, the clock is ticking - you get the idea...?
You're an engineer, can't you see that as a possibility?

Ok, so discarding my theory above completely, I'll get back to a point I'd like to make.
Think about this:
What percentage of DLs are demonstrating this fault?
Does anyone know?
At what percentage could anyone say, without any doubt, that Mackie knew there was a problem from the outset?

Cause, blame, percentages - who really knows? I don't.

What I am sure about is that I didn't agree with the assumption that Mackie released the DL aware of the "white noise" problem.
That is my opinion and you're all welcome to change it with facts if you can. But hey, I really don't care, mine is working fine!
 
That's the last time I'll put my hand up in class! ::)

Peace out dudes :-*

 
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on July 23, 2014, 01:05:15 AM
Chill Robbo you only got one sentence and that was to continue your satire on JL's outbursts. Don't read more into it. :)  Blame was never a topic it's quite clear who's to blame, hint starts with M.  So far iBloke's data is the only solid evidence, Abzurd videoed this but it was to short an audio event to be useful but it certainly drove the point home to Mackie. The rest were reports with various hand waving and uncertain conditions but plentiful enough to consider it a problem by any responsible  manufacturer. They have had plenty of opportunity to get faulty units from their returns and test them including iBloke's. As to the trigger for this problem I agree with you that it's started by the MF program as I explained here.
 http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=687.msg6729#msg6729
Mackie knows the numbers but won't fess up. No one AFAIK is saying that they suspected that Mackie knew about the problem at launch but it was pointed out to them early on (over a year ago). We need class participation  ;) . No worries mate as they say down under.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on July 23, 2014, 01:22:40 AM
Hey WK, no offence taken at all, this is a pleasant break from work!
You maybe guessed already, but I try to look for the good side in everyone.
That's why I'm inclined to give Mackie the benefit of the doubt regarding their awareness of said problem.
I must admit that I don't recall the white noise being an issue early on in this (or the Mackie) forum.
Maybe my perception of time is skewed, I just see it as a more recent problem?
Anyway, back to the other (real) homework I have :thu: ;)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on July 23, 2014, 04:25:50 AM
Good policy to have, lower blood pressure etc.. I remember reading about it 3-4 month after I received my DL that would put it about November - December 2012. I never used the feature cause I never saw the point of loading up the iPad with music since I already had my wife's iPod which was enough to maintain. Never needed more than about 10 mics so I had channels to spare.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Jerrylee on July 23, 2014, 07:35:29 AM
Very impressive, I heard a demo of a DVA system and it sounded great. That's a lot of boxes for someone to hump around:)

Hey robbo I am glad you heard a dva system and said it sounds great. I had to base my decision on things I have seen online. Reviews, YouTube, etc. I should have my whole system delivered with the next several weeks. I also was able to contact some national acts that had played some of my upcoming events in the past. I needed to know if the setup would be rider friendly. All said yes. Most of the acts I will be working with are not too picky. I called the ones from the past that I was told are picky. So if I do run into one of them I will be safe. My first big event is not till November. I am planning on doing a gig for a friends band who has a small amphitheater gig. They are stoked for me to do it for them. This way I can test it all before November.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: 4mal on August 23, 2014, 06:51:44 PM
I picked up a dl806 for corporate speech gigs and small /low input countsensemble gigs.  Nice little mixer but I also got the white noise burst using an iPad 2 (wifi and 3G), 32 gig. IOS 7.1.2.  I didn't track it back to the disconnect.  Good to know that I should avoid that.

Question is if I kill the music, via double tap of the home button and kill the music as a background task, can I then disconnect w/o the noise ?  If so, can I re launch the music  while wifi connected to the 806 ?  I could live with that though I would prefer not to have to ...

Thanks!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on September 22, 2014, 07:35:18 PM
I never experienced the white noise problem with my former DL or the school’s, because I never played audio with the docked iPad. I didn’t want to run into that particular issue, to avoid headaches at gigs. I always plug my iPod into channel 15/16 for walk-in music etc. I always run my iPad undocked and keep a spare one also wirelessly connected, just in case. And keep a spare old style mixer for backup.

The issue here is you should be able to play audio with a docked iPad. That’s why Master Fader has an iPad channel. You should be able to run an iPad docked all the time if you have to without dropping sync. It was designed that way from the onset. Obviously Mackie didn’t do thorough enough real world testing of the mixer/iPad combo. Or enough quality control. They obviously, even though they have a website for suggestions, didn’t listen to everyone. This can be compared to selective hearing, only deal with what you want to hear.

Mackie shouldn’t be taken to task for problems that occurred after the fact. They should be scurrying to correct these issues. But like I’ve said “adnauseum” It’s a good bet that the current platform is being swept under the carpet, warts and all, to be superseded by the upcoming release of the DL32 and its spinoffs. I think Mackie is hoping that we will all be so wowed by it we line up for hours (can you say new iPhones?) to get the latest new toy. “Out of Sight, Out Of Mind” (Mackie or Us?)  ::)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on September 23, 2014, 06:39:00 AM

Mackie shouldn’t be taken to task for problems that occurred after the fact. They should be scurrying to correct these issues. But like I’ve said “adnauseum” It’s a good bet that the current platform is being swept under the carpet, warts and all, to be superseded by the upcoming release of the DL32 and its spinoffs. I think Mackie is hoping that we will all be so wowed by it we line up for hours (can you say new iPhones?) to get the latest new toy. “Out of Sight, Out Of Mind” (Mackie or Us?)  ::)

I've used my DL for quite a few gigs now, and for the most part like it...generally speaking.

In my 25 years in the live music industry down here in Australia I've met a Lot of other sound engineers over the years and mackie has been one brand (out of a handful) that has always gained negative conversation due to various issues those many colleagues have experienced. (I've never owned a mackie product before this thing)

I love the simplicity of the UI.
I love being able to stand at a mic and adjust the EQ in real time (this would be my favourite DL feature)
I love not having to run a multicore anymore.
And I love having 6 aux send for monitors.

Does it sound as good as my previous analogue mixers? Not in my opinion. But it's not far behind, and certainly not a deal breaker.

Long story short having experienced the white noise issue, and watching their inability, or reluctance to get it sorted is enough to sway me well away from any future mackie purchase.

So if mackie is hoping that they will keep current DL customers in the hopes they will "upgrade" to the DL 32, I can positively guarantee I'll never be embarrassed by their half arsed products again.

I will use this current DL1608 until it no longer functions due to whatever reason, after which I'll wash my hands of the mackie brand and move to some other brand who actually address any issues that arise.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on September 23, 2014, 02:06:06 PM
Hi 4mal,

Welcome to the forum.  ;) I’ve never experienced the white noise issue, like I mentioned in my post, but I would think that in the real world if you killed the app completely it should stop the white noise. Theoretically you’re eliminating the source and should be able to restart the app. Don’t quote me though. There are so many here with way more tech experience than I have, in this area, who can give you a definitive answer. I hope they chime in on your request.

Obviously with the 806, eating up 1 or 2 channels for audio playback is not an option for you. But it would eliminate the white noise issue. Even though you shouldn't have to do that. It should work as it was designed. Darn It. (insert your own colorful metaphors here) ::)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kevin on September 23, 2014, 02:22:37 PM
I saw the white noise problem once - about 18 months ago, when I was trying to get a 30pin extension cable to work. It sounded like the output from my RTA was on, which really threw me for a loop until I realized that it was coming from the iPad. I havent had the problem since, so I had pretty much forgot about it. Recent findings by WK154 and Roadrunner make me fairly sure that this problem is just another symptom of the same root cause, namely a noisy iPad fast charge circuit on the DL.

Luckily there are a couple of workarounds, which is probably why I never saw it again after 18 months ago:

a) if you have a newish iPad, fully charge it before each gig and dont dock it if the battery charge is below 90 percent. That keeps the DL's charge circuit in trickle charge mode. If the DL's charge circuit switches over to fast charge mode, it gets noisy and random bad things can happen

b) if you have an older iPad with a faded battery, you might need to get a cheap 30 pin extension cable and cut the 5v power line from the DL (pin 23).  Use the cable to dock your iPad. That takes the DL's noisy circuit out of the picture completely as well as allows you to put a protective case on your iPad.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on September 23, 2014, 03:33:06 PM
I saw the white noise problem once - about 18 months ago, when I was trying to get a 30pin extension cable to work. It sounded like the output from my RTA was on, which really threw me for a loop until I realized that it was coming from the iPad. I havent had the problem since, so I had pretty much forgot about it. Recent findings by WK154 and Roadrunner make me fairly sure that this problem is just another symptom of the same root cause, namely a noisy iPad fast charge circuit on the DL.

Luckily there are a couple of workarounds, which is probably why I never saw it again after 18 months ago:

a) if you have a newish iPad, fully charge it before each gig and dont dock it if the battery charge is below 90 percent. That keeps the DL's charge circuit in trickle charge mode. If the DL's charge circuit switches over to fast charge mode, it gets noisy and random bad things can happen

b) if you have an older iPad with a faded battery, you might need to get a cheap 30 pin extension cable and cut the 5v power line from the DL (pin 23).  Use the cable to dock your iPad. That takes the DL's noisy circuit out of the picture completely as well as allows you to put a protective case on your iPad.
Kevin perhaps I didn't elaborate enough on my recent current draw test or you missed the implication, but there is no trickle charge at 100% iPad battery level, it's a full on charge at around 1.2 amps which then slowly increases to 1.5 amps at which time the DL switches to constant current (limiter kicks in) mode 0.5 amps. Far from your assumptions. This may also be detrimental to the iPad battery but from my measurements the Ipad is receiving the current. but because in the long run it still looses charge it may not be all that bad (iPad uses more than the DL can provide) unless Apple has a safety in place to prevent excess charging. The DL is the charger and it determines charging current. This is the basis on which I believe that noise is not an issue since the iPad receives the noise for over 2 hrs. without a sync problem.

Welcome 4mal. As to your question: unless you have a kill switch to disconnect speakers you won't want to spend all that time with what you stated. Killing the background task will have no effect on the DL, it's off doing it's own thing. Powering off the DL gets it's attention and stops the noise not something you would want to do live but you may not have a choice. Terminating MF may stop the sound but not if you've lost sync. An un-docked iPad may be able to control it.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kevin on September 24, 2014, 04:01:20 AM
WL154 - I read the results of your current draw test and believe that I understand most of the implications, one of which is that you might benefit from a short primer on how LIon fast charging works, so that we can continue to make some headway on this problem my friend:

If an LIon battery is below 70 - 80 percent capacity (depending on exact chemistry), it is always charged starting in Constant Current (CC) mode,  until the voltage gets to about 4.0 to 4.2v (again these numbers vary a bit depending on chemistry and whether you are optimizing for battery capacity or longevity). All LIon fast chargers do this, whether they are 10W or 80KW

So if you saw your (calculated) current to the iPad start at 1.2 amps and increase to 1.5 amps at 80 percent, that is a clear sign that the DL is not actually directly controlling the charging .  Most likely the DL just supplies a (supposedly) steady 5V and there is another circuit which is actually in the iPad, most likely also using another buck switcher to supply the battery with a constant current until the voltage comes up to ~4.1V.  As the battery voltage rises from say 3.3V (fairly well discharged) to 4.1V (mostly charged), the charge current to the battery stays the same, (probably around 1.7A, going by your numbers), but the current draw from the 5V voltage source on the Mackie increases. The actual charging buck switcher in the iPad has to pull more increasingly more current from the 5 volt rail provided by Mackie, in order to deliver a constant current source to the battery.

So - if you saw the current increase to the iPad as the battery state of charge increased, that is a sure sign that the actual battery charging regulator is on the iPad, not on the DL. No LIon charger increases the current during the CC phase. The DL must just supplying a dumb 5V rail to the actual charging circuit - which may be a good thing for our purposes, because a dumb 5v rail is usually simpler and easier to clean up than a variable voltage regulating circuit.

Now, once the battery voltage comes up to about ~4.1V, the charging circuit will switch from fast CC mode to constant voltage (CV) mode. During CV mode, the charging circuit will hold the battery voltage to ~4.1v and the current will decrease from ~1.7A down to almost nothing. The CV charge stage is terminated when the current reaches a small value, usually something like 0.02C, or in this case about 40mA. Beyond this point, the charger will stop, monitor the voltage, and if it drops below a certain threshold (usually 0.05 below the CV cutoff), a small "trickle" charge is periodically supplied to keep it up to full charge.

That is how LIon battery charging works in a nutshell. Keep in mind that you are never going to see a current as low as 40ma coming from the DL, because in addition to keeping the battery topped off, the 5v rail is also what is powering the iPad. So final current will be much higher than 40ma.

What is interesting in your case is that you reported a sudden drop in charging current, from 1.5 amps to 0.5 amps to the iPad. That is not how the CV stage of LIon charging works. Typically, you will see the current reduced in the shape of an exponential curve, from CC current (~1.7A to the battery, ~1.5A from Mackie's 5V supply) all the way down to almost nothing, over a period of about 90 minutes. Not a step decrease like this.

When you said that the unit "failed" at 80 percent when the current dropped to 0.5A, are you saying that Master Fader lost synch at this point? If so, then it seems to me that the failure could be one of three things:

a) If the 5V regulator circuit on the DL is not adequately sized, as the charging circuit on the iPad pulls more current, the rail could be getting hogged down, which will make it increasingly noisy. As voltage on the battery comes up, the current required from the 5V rail in order to keep the battery in constant current mode goes up, and the noise increases until it starts affecting data signals and something hiccups. This is actually the best case scenario because it ought to be relatively easy to fix a simple 5v regulator circuit

or (more problematic)

b) the fact that the current dropped right to 0.5A when the failure occurred is suspicious to me. Because that is the max current supplied under the normal USB spec. I havent delved too much into the apple charging particulars, but my limited understanding is that some USB signaling is involved which allows the iPad or iPhone to tell the wall wart "give me all the juice you can" instead of the normal 500mA. The fact that the current dropped right to 500mA when things went south is a troubling sign to me that Mackie might have used the same chip that Apple uses in their wall warts to supply the 5v rail to the iPad. And when the MF synch dropped, the USB signal from the charging circuit also dropped and the supply circuit on the DL went into dumb "I'm just a standard USB charger" mode. There really should be no need for Mackie to have used the apple chip, because there is no chance that anything other than an Apple product will be using the DL's USB circuit, hence no need to support the published USB spec, just give the device as much current as its onboard charger wants. However Apple is pretty good about bamboozling manufacturers into buying chips that they dont really need. In all likelihood, the apple chip can be removed and replaced with a simple 5v 2A regulated supply without too much fuss, but it wont be a pretty mod, and definitely not a drop in parts replacement or an easy factory BOM change like (a) is likely to be. This might also explain why Mackie hasnt fixed this yet - because its not really their problem. Under normal wall wart conditions, apple probably doesnt care if their regulated 5v is noisy as hell, but put it in a cable with a lot of other control signals and bad things can happen. Still this is fixable in the field.

or (worst case)

(c) Both MF and the iPad's charging circuit are both using the same USB data lines for control, with at least two devices on the DL (Apple's 5V supply chip, DL's control interface) and a single host controller, with multiple application interfaces (charge circuit control FW and MF) on the iPad. When the iPad battery needs more than 500mA of current, both the charge circuit and MF are using the same USB lines. In theory there is nothing wrong with this. The USB protocol supports multiple device and host endpoints on the same bus, but in practice, this can get tricky. I've worked on host mode USB drivers before and they can be a real bitch to get to be 100 percent reliable even when interfacing to known devices. In the case of Apple, there probably are not too many instances where an iPad will be both charging and doing some other critical control data over same USB lines at the same time, so Apple may not have spent a lot of time beating on their USB host controller firmware. In that case, there may have been a data collision in the USB host driver, which would have occurred on the iPad and it could take out both MF and the charging circuit. That would explain why MF drops out and the current drops to 0.5A at the same time (assuming that is what you saw). That would also explain why Mackie is having such a hard time fixing this. Apple is probably telling them that they are not using the USB host driver correctly, but the truth may be that Apples USB host driver has holes in it.

Fortunately for everyone having these problem, in the short term, no matter what the cause (assuming one of the above), the workaround is the same. Keep your iPad fully charged, so that it doesnt need to draw more than 500mA from the DL to charge its battery. Or, if your iPad's battery is old and doesnt hold a charge well, get a cable and cut pin 23





Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on September 26, 2014, 04:29:30 AM
Kevin I don't need a refresher course in Li recommended charging procedures, you're preaching to the choir. To make some headway on identifying this problem we first need FACTS. As I recollect you have certainly not shared any with us here. Perhaps it's all about conjecture. For everyone Else's benefit there are two regulating circuits in the charging system, one in the charger (DL) which is a Constant Voltage circuit  with a limiter, the other a protective circuit (iPad) that are in all Li batteries I'm aware off. The extend to the sophistication of the battery protection/regulation varies widely.
Apple has used Li-polymer batteries as far back as I can remember. The rating on these is 3.7-3.78V not 4.1V. Apple also stated that the 100% indicator is really not that but in close proximity to allow for a charge/discharge cycle to happen to accommodate permanently attached chargers. I would suggest that you read the USB Battery spec V1.2 (part of the USB 2.0 spec)  http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb20_docs/   I mentioned before and pay close attention to fig. 4-1 I'm sure it will answer a lot of questions. I'm not trying to create an issue here it's part of the FACT finding. As I see it until we have more measurements and closer to the subject we should all limit our conclusions. I will find some time next week to explore the cable measurements which will certainly be quite specific.  Since you're a contract engineer perhaps you could also take some measurements. I do have schematics on the  reference design by Apple's Engineering co. iWatt. http://iwatt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/EBC10007_Reference_Design.pdf  According to people that have taken the charger apart have stated that there are very minor differences. This is for a DCP (wall wart)  not a CDP which is what a DL should be. The specs are somewhat different but the constant 5V to the current limit are similar, the spec clearly defines that. iWatt designed the DCP and possibly also the CDP (Apple secret). iWatt design their own IC's. Here is another company in that game.  http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/4803
Some useful info from them. Perhaps we can get closer to identifying the problem without Mackie's help.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on September 30, 2014, 12:14:39 PM
So, just a random thought here from a newbie to this forum and the DL1608, but a long, long time "sound guy" and musician and broadcast engineer. This is in no way intended to throw gasoline on this fire, nor to make "excuses" for anybody involved. It's just meant to offer some food for thought.

I've noticed random spurts of audio interference from wireless devices, particularly those with GSM cellular features, although some CDMA-equipped devices do it as well. Here in the states, phones with AT&T service can cause audio system noise even when located 15-20 feet away from audio equipment. The noises have varied from random "squelch burst" white noises to sounds that reminded me of old dial-up modems. Sometimes, the sounds last only a couple of seconds, and sometimes, they last for quite a while. Proximity of the wireless device to the audio gear plays a role as well.

I have also noticed with my iPad Mini that, when it's connected to an amp via the "headphone" output, that moving my fingers across the display sometimes causes noises on the output.

I've noticed these noises with a variety of audio systems -- both analog and digital -- from Mackie, Allen and Heath, Presonus, Behringer, the cheap table radio over on my kitchen counter, my wife's car radio (but not mine, go figure) ... you get the point. Pretty random, but always pointing back to the cellular device, and most often, a GSM cellular device.

When the DL1608 was designed, wireless routers were not available in the 5GHz frequency band, and there may be some unknown issue there, especially with placing the router within inches of the mixer hardware. The same may be true of 2.4GHz, for that matter. And, there are a myriad of other cheap wireless and digital devices that could be spewing out random noise in the environments in which we work -- cordless telephones, wireless headsets and short range paging devices are now staples of the food services industry; the bands we're doing sound for are using stacks of wireless low-priced wireless gear in the VHF, UHF and now 2.4GHz bands, and stacks of plastic-cased digital effects units, all with high-frequency clocks and processors banging away. While these devices may be from well-respected brands like Shure and Senneheiser, I can pretty much guarantee that a $400 Shure PG- or BLX-series wireless system is not built to the same standard as their UL- and DL-series models. Oh, and let's not forget the trucker yammering on his hopped-up CB unit on the highway behind the venue.

So, as a tech and an engineer with quite a bit of experience in the "real world," I can certainly see a number of places where spurious noises can and do enter our audio systems or mixers. I know for a fact that Allen and Heath's iLive system is susceptible to some of these same sources of interference in certain circumstances, and I fully expect that every audio system may have some level of susceptibility to outside factors.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on September 30, 2014, 12:27:32 PM
Kevin I don't need a refresher course in Li recommended charging procedures, you're preaching to the choir. To make some headway on identifying this problem we first need FACTS. As I recollect you have certainly not shared any with us here. Perhaps it's all about conjecture. For everyone Else's benefit there are two regulating circuits in the charging system, one in the charger (DL) which is a Constant Voltage circuit  with a limiter, the other a protective circuit (iPad) that are in all Li batteries I'm aware off. The extend to the sophistication of the battery protection/regulation varies widely.
Apple has used Li-polymer batteries as far back as I can remember. The rating on these is 3.7-3.78V not 4.1V. Apple also stated that the 100% indicator is really not that but in close proximity to allow for a charge/discharge cycle to happen to accommodate permanently attached chargers. I would suggest that you read the USB Battery spec V1.2 (part of the USB 2.0 spec)  http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb20_docs/   I mentioned before and pay close attention to fig. 4-1 I'm sure it will answer a lot of questions. I'm not trying to create an issue here it's part of the FACT finding. As I see it until we have more measurements and closer to the subject we should all limit our conclusions. I will find some time next week to explore the cable measurements which will certainly be quite specific.  Since you're a contract engineer perhaps you could also take some measurements. I do have schematics on the  reference design by Apple's Engineering co. iWatt. http://iwatt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/EBC10007_Reference_Design.pdf  According to people that have taken the charger apart have stated that there are very minor differences. This is for a DCP (wall wart)  not a CDP which is what a DL should be. The specs are somewhat different but the constant 5V to the current limit are similar, the spec clearly defines that. iWatt designed the DCP and possibly also the CDP (Apple secret). iWatt design their own IC's. Here is another company in that game.  http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/4803
Some useful info from them. Perhaps we can get closer to identifying the problem without Mackie's help.

Just a couple of additions here...

All LiPo cells are rated at a nominal voltage of 3.7V. The MAXIMUM allowable charge is 4.2V, with an optimal charge being 4.1V. An individual cell works best if not drained below 3.0V, and internal damage to the cell will occur below 2.7V.

Not all LiPo cells have built-in or built-on protection circuits, although those used in cellular phones and similar devices generally do. However, there are many, many LiPo battery packs out there with no protection on the cells that rely on more sophisticated chargers that monitor and control the charge to each cell in the pack. This kind of control allows for optimal charging of each cell in the pack, which can prolong "run time" and overall battery life.

If you look at the pack, and it has more than two connection points (or a multi-pin connector of some sort), then the protection is probably external. Most laptops, for instance, that use Li battery packs us external protection and monitoring.

batteryuniversity.com is an excellent source of information on all types of batteries, including LiPo, LiFe and Lithium-Ion.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on September 30, 2014, 04:49:05 PM
gerenm63 welcome aboard.
my iPad 3 LiPo cells are rated at 3.78V by the manufacturer so not all are 3.7V. I didn't state the regulation/control of the battery is part of the battery but certainly part of the battery system. I should have been more specific. As I pointed out there are many levels of protection but all are protected, unless the company wants to be out of business overnight. We have pretty much ruled out outside RF as the cause of the noise. The sync problem clearly is a Mackie fixable issue.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on September 30, 2014, 09:57:21 PM
gerenm63 welcome aboard.
my iPad 3 LiPo cells are rated at 3.78V by the manufacturer so not all are 3.7V. I didn't state the regulation/control of the battery is part of the battery but certainly part of the battery system. I should have been more specific. As I pointed out there are many levels of protection but all are protected, unless the company wants to be out of business overnight. We have pretty much ruled out outside RF as the cause of the noise. The sync problem clearly is a Mackie fixable issue.

Thanks for the welcome, WK!

In another part of my life (what? I have a life? Or, do I have several? I don't know some times) I spend a lot of time dealing with battery systems. A 3.78V cell is probably actually a lithium manganese cell. And, I probably should have been more specific, too. The generic term LiPo is generally used in the industry to refer to Lithium-Ion Polymer, a variant of the standard Lithium-Ion cell that has been slightly altered so that it can be built to shapes other than cylindrical. Unfortunately, a lot of these different cell types get lumped under the generic term LiPo, and that's where a lot of problems come in. Assumptions in the case of lithium-based batteries can be extremely dangerous.

As far as ruling out RFI, it's some sneaky stuff. RF energy is everywhere, all the time, in constantly changing quantity and quality. And, as I said, we work in environments that are rife with it. And something as simple as an intermittent pin 1 on a mic cable can open the door for it to come charging into our audio systems. I've also heard all kinds of strange noises come from portable devices like iPhones and iPods, whether connected via Dock/Lighting connectors, or the headphone/line audio output.

I've not yet experienced the sync issue. My DL1608 is a B-stock/demo unit with a 30-pin Dock connector that I recently acquired from my local Mackie rep., who is also a long-time friend. His firm has used it at trade shows and various other demos without incident (I'm guessing he's expecting a DL32R soon, which is why he could part with the DL1608 so readily). As well as being a friend, he's also a brutally honest sort, and I know that if he felt I'd have any problems with a DL1608, he would have shoved me hard to go in a different direction. He's done that before, including telling to not buy certain items that his firm reps.

I should probably put some of these goings on to him, and see what his take is. He may be able to shed some insight. I'll report back when I can.

Cheers!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on September 30, 2014, 10:56:09 PM
For iPad internal info I found the iFixit guys to be very thorough and have torn apart every iPad since V1.
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad+3+4G+Teardown/8277
Too bad they're not interested in the DL1608. :)
My DL won't sing to me but I can consistently loose sync albeit with a 1M cable extension and battery charge at 80% or below.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 01, 2014, 08:05:51 AM
Thankfully I rarely see the loss of sync issue from both docked or wireless iPads.

In fact even using my otherwise shitty dlink router (2.4ghz only in mostly crowded venues) I rarely see a drop out of sync.

I don't give a shit about the white noise issue anymore. Apple? Mackie? Both? Don't care.
Its obviously an issue that ain't gunna be fixed so I've moved on...

After quite a few gigs with the DL I couldn't stand going back to a static mixing position on an analogue mixer that requires a ton of outboard gear for both FOH and monitors, which for past few years has been side stage, and at the last gig to be able to stand next to the relatively fussy bassist/vocalist and tune out the "honk or whatever" in real time is worth the price of DL1608 entry alone.

Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kev tyler on October 01, 2014, 09:28:05 AM
My mate has a pacemaker, it is affected by proximity to LCD monitors and other things, he has collapsed a few times and the people who make the implant deny that outside interference can possibly be taken serious.

I saw on the news that we will be charging all our  batteries by rf soon,

Progress?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 01, 2014, 10:05:09 AM
My mate has a pacemaker, it is affected by proximity to LCD monitors and other things, he has collapsed a few times and the people who make the implant deny that outside interference can possibly be taken serious.

Thanks for this little nugget, Kev. My dad has occasional problems with his pacemaker that no one seems to be able to figure out. He spends a lot of time on the computer -- particularly his laptop.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kev tyler on October 01, 2014, 05:44:31 PM
He said its all manner of leccy stuff, if it's too close, he gets a timing problem

Tell your dad to be careful testing this theory out

 :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kevin on October 01, 2014, 05:48:32 PM
Here are some measurements of the charge cycle for an 18 mo old Gen 3 iPad, with the DL1608, and Apple 10W and 12W chargers

To measure current from the DL, I popped the plastic housing off my old Patazon 3ft 30 pin cable, cut back about an inch of the jacket in order to separate out the red usb power wire (pin 23) and measured it with a current clamp meter (accurate to 1% and calibrated a few months ago).  Voltage readings were from Pin 23 to 15.

http://imgur.com/DQ6fL70

Under no load, the DL puts out 5.01v

With the iPad battery completely discharged, so that the iPad is unable to boot, the DL puts out 0.48A (dumb USB mode) and voltage drops a bit to 4.94v. Interestingly both the 10W and 12W apple chargers put out about 1A in this mode, and have a lot more of a voltage drop (~4.2v)

When the battery gets to 2 percent charge (so that the iPad is just barely able to boot), the current from the DL goes to 2.01A and the voltage drops to 4.69v. I put a scope on pin 23, expecting to see a sawtooth waveform on top of the rail, with a spike on the rising edge, but it actually looked pretty clean, with a solid 4.7v rail (I'm still not sure I believe this though, and might try to borrow a better scope for further testing).

At this point, the apple 10W charger was putting out 1.03A @4.21v and the 12W was putting out 1.05A at 4.24v. This is the most current that they put out during the whole charge cycle, and is only about half of what they should be able to produce. In order to measure these, I had to plug them through the 3 ft Patazon cable, so the total charge cable length was about 6 feet. That could have caused them to cut their current back, although the iPad did display "charging". If I can find an extra iPad charging cable, I might open one up like I did the Patazon and see how these two chargers work when there is only 3 feet of cable

The DL continued to put out about 2 amps until the battery was somewhere between 50 and 65 percent (I wasnt watching it closely enough to see exactly where it went into CV mode). By 65 percent, the current had cut back to 1.85A and it slowly dropped until it got to 1.50A at 95 percent - which is where things started to get a little strange.

At 95 percent, I was still seeing dropouts with MF, which was unusual. Then, while playing with MF, the SOC went straight from 95 to 100 percent in a blink. Next, when unplugging and re-plugging the cable to get my synch back, the current from the DL dropped from 1.50A to 0.89A, at which point I had a solid connection.  Unplugging and re-plugging the 30 pin cable, sometimes I would get ~1.5A, in which case MF could not keep the synch and sometimes I would get ~0.90A and have a solid connection.

What is probably going on here is that when the iPad first displays 100%, it is not really at 100%. This has been documented elsewhere. In reality, the battery is still halfway down the CV curve. It turns out that 0.89A is the current draw for my iPad running MF when the battery is completely charged. So at this point, the iPad's charger is having trouble deciding what to do. Plug the cable in once and the iPad thinks it still should be charging and pulls 1.5A. Plug it in again and it thinks the charging is done and just pulls what it needs to run the iPad. All the time, the battery display is 100%.

By this point it was getting late, so I disconnected the iPad from the charging cable and left it sitting overnight. The next morning it was at 97 percent and when I ran MF, it almost immediately dropped to 93 percent. That was not too surprising since it didnt really charge to a full 100 percent the night before (even though the display said it did). What was very strange though is that now when I plugged the iPad into the DL, it was only drawing 16mA, which is much less than the current needed to power the unit. The 10W and 12W apple chargers were only supplying 7mA and 8mA respectively, so this appeared to be an iPad issue, not a DL issue.  During this time MF would not synch at all, even though I would normally have no problems at 93 percent. Then, to make matters more confusing, the battery indicator ticked up to 94 percent. It was impossible that the battery could actually be charging because the iPad needs ~0.8A just to stay on and the DL was only putting out 16mA.  I then played some music through the iPad speakers, just to use more power and let it go for about an hour. During this time, the battery level crept up to 100 percent again, even though the most the iPad ever pulled was 17mA. Over the course of an hour with the iPad's display on and music playing, the actual battery charge would have dropped by about 3-4Whr - even though the indicator said it was charging! So clearly the iPad charging logic has some issues. At the end of the hour, I checked the iPad draw from the Apple chargers again, and they were still only putting out 7-8mA. I powered the iPad down and back up again and same thing. Unit displays 100 percent, and only draws a few mA from the DL or either Apple charger. This looks to me like some sort of bug in the iPad's charging circuit, which happens right around the time that the battery display goes to the false 100 percent charge (but battery is still in the middle of the CV curve). In retrospect, I should have tried docking the iPad to see if it had any effect. I might try this again to see if I can replicate it. I suspect that when the iPad gets into this mode - right at the onset of the "false 100 percent" charge, the iPad can lock up in a state where it wont synch to the DL and wont take a charge. This appears to be the iPad's issue, not the DLs. Running into this at a gig would really, really suck.

Next, I powered down the iPad and left it for an hour. When I powered it back on, the battery display was still at 100 percent, but the DL was putting out 1.5A again, so at least the iPad realized that it was supposed to be in CV mode and was drawing a reasonable current. I let the iPad go to sleep mode, at which point the charge current went to 0.87A and tapered down to 0.22A over 90 minutes. After 3hrs, it reached what seems to be a steady 0.11A.

At this point, the DL and iPad went back to being their old normal selves again. Power draw from the DL was about 0.8A to 1A while MF was running and MF had no problems keeping synch with other programs running. However playing around with the setup some more, I realized that "normal" is not quite what I thought it was.

It turns out that keeping MF from dropping out is not really so much of having the battery fully charged, but keeping the current draw from the DL below about 1.2A (for which a full battery is needed). If I increased the brightness of the iPad display to about 3/4, I would get periodic drop outs, and at full bright (about 1.5A), it wont hold synch at all. No problems at default and lower brightness settings.  Even my 6 ft Cable Jive cable (normally rock solid at full charge) drops out after about 15 min at full brightness on a fully charged battery. The 2ft Cable Jive has no problems at full bright (or any other condition that I've run into so far).

That's about all I have time for this week and still a lot of open questions, but I figured I'd throw these results up to see if anyone else has some insight as to what might be going on.

TLDR: Looks to me like the problem(s) might be with power distribution on the iPad, but further testing is needed. In the meantime, if you are having disconnect problems, make sure that the iPad battery is fully charged (not just displaying 100 percent - give it a good 2 hours of charge time after it gets to 100 percent). If you are still having problems and dont want to hack a 30 pin cable, try reducing your display brightness and see if that helps





Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: stevegarris on October 01, 2014, 06:23:54 PM
Thankfully I rarely see the loss of sync issue from both docked or wireless iPads.

In fact even using my otherwise shitty dlink router (2.4ghz only in mostly crowded venues) I rarely see a drop out of sync.

I don't give a shit about the white noise issue anymore. Apple? Mackie? Both? Don't care.
Its obviously an issue that ain't gunna be fixed so I've moved on...

After quite a few gigs with the DL I couldn't stand going back to a static mixing position on an analogue mixer that requires a ton of outboard gear for both FOH and monitors, which for past few years has been side stage, and at the last gig to be able to stand next to the relatively fussy bassist/vocalist and tune out the "honk or whatever" in real time is worth the price of DL1608 entry alone.

Yep. I've never heard white noise and my DL rocks!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 01, 2014, 11:24:10 PM
Kevin great job. :thu: I have yet to start with the cable test, waiting for a USB meter. I'm glad we both have the same iPad 3 and probably the same vintage DL which should make comparisons simple. Since I started at the "100%" battery charge point because I needed to be connected to see where it would drop sync my results are only centered around that issue.  From what I've read so far the results are similar in those areas. I tried to find a spec sheet on the power management chip that Apple uses but apparently that spec has been carefully purged from the Internet. The part is Qualcomm's PM8028correction Apple 343S0561. This is the mystery IC causing the strange results we observed. We can only speculate what happens to the battery beyond the 5V source unless you're up to taking your iPad apart. I will get to some of it by weekend. A separate load test on the DL should give indications as to who is dropping the current. The data lines need to be monitored for control status as well.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kevin on October 02, 2014, 04:10:28 PM
WK154 - Thanks for the link to the ifixit teardown of the iPad 3

The Qualcomm PM8028 looks like the power management chip for the cell radio subsystem, not the main power management chip.

The main power management looks like the Apple 343S0561, which you can see in step 19.  According to a teardown done by tech insight, this contains a Dialog D1974 power management unit. No datasheet for that either, but Dialog does make some similar stock parts that perform this function

http://www.techinsights.com/teardowns/new-apple-ipad-gen3-teardown-analysis/
http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/products/power-management

It looks like the DL1608's iPad charging circuit may be just a current source which responds to the controller on the iPad. Power comes into the iPad's main logic board through the ribbon connector on the bottom left hand side of step 19, and into the power management section immediately adjacent. Power to/from the battery appears to travel along the edges of the PCB and around the micro and BT/WiFi sections, to the five gold pins that make contact with the battery pack, that you see on the bottom left of the step 15 image. Not sure why the battery contacts werent located closer to the main power management section.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 02, 2014, 09:25:30 PM
Hummm missed that one but unfortunately the same problem, no specs. All in all we can't do anything about that anyways so we need to focus on what matters. I need to find out what kind of signalling exists between the DL and iPad via the D+- lines. This could be simple voltage levels or it could be messages as per USB spec. Of course who's paying attention to the spec? There is no point to focusing on LiPo charging since it has no real bearing on the problem. I'll make the assumption that Apple has that well under control from their track record via the power management chip. It's the actions of the DL and MF that determine sync status. Quite frankly the charging circuit should have nothing to do with the communications path. Mandolin is the protocol that send messages and data between the DL and iPad via 3 other lines TX,RX,Gnd. These along with iPad information apparently are used to determine sync status. Some of this will be cleared up when the D+- lines are monitored. Shutting down the communication link without serious transmission errors is lunacy, especially if it's based on charging status. The TX/RX lines need to be monitored and that requires a lot of work (reverse engineering Mandolin). If the decision is based on internal iPad indicators alone then code knowledge is required to determine that. Good luck getting your hands on that. Too bad my rig from DOS 5 days is gone, I designed and wrote a monitor for RS232C duplex communication. It payed for itself in no time. You can buy communications monitors but they are pricey and usually specific to protocols although most will give you raw data. The best we can hope for is to characterize the actions and avoid clear problems, Mackie is the one that can fix it. :(
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 05, 2014, 04:58:55 AM
I bought an iPhone 6 today. While I was at the apple store I also bought an apple 30 pin to lightning adapter lead which measures 200mm long.

I've used it to plug my iPad mini into the DL.

I've been playing music directly from the "docked" iPad mini for a cuppa hours now and have not had one incident of the dreaded "white noise".

This is a first for me!

Prior to this I used 3 full sized iPads, all with 30 pin dock connectors.

2 x iPad 2's, and my iPad 3.

These 3 iPads ALL produced the white noise blast with both the DL1608's I've had. (I sent the first DL back coz it was so bad. The current replacement is much better, but still has random white noise blasts)

The iPad 3 is on ios 7.1.2, and the iPad 2's are on iOS 7

I've got all my fingers and toes crossed the combination of iPad mini/iOS 8.0.2/30 pin - lightning adapter will remain white noise free.
Coz if it does I've just gained an extra 2 channels on the DL.

Wish me luck  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/96d4d49776659989cb700f5a8f66bb25_zpsedc7f943.jpg)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 05, 2014, 07:45:05 AM
That's the exact combo I use iBloke and never have problems. Hope it's the same for you  :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 05, 2014, 09:03:40 AM
That's the exact combo I use iBloke and never have problems. Hope it's the same for you  :)

G'day Robbo.

Reeeeeeeally good news....so far.

It's currently 7:40pm and my iPad mini has been running non stop for hours, (sorry I'm too drunk to work out the exact amount of time right now) but I've never been able to play music from the docked iPad uninterrupted for so long.
I've even tried to make the white noise happen by opening, and using as many apps, and mucking around with as many settings in master fader as I can.
I haven't been able to induce the white noise no matter how hard I've tried.

Now, I don't wanna jump the gun, and maybe Jinx myself, but this is the most stable behaviour I've seen from a DL1608, and I've had 2 so far.

As far as the technical issues behind this issue are concerned, I wouldn't have a clue.
WK154 has been incredibly helpful since I bought my first DL and quickly discovered its white noise thing.
As I've already said, I tried 3 different iPads (30 pin dock connector) and had the same white noise from each, to varying degrees.
 
And I've been told to "shut the f*** up", and to "f*** off" by one particularly ignorant cacophony forum member who blamed my white noise problem on both me, and the iPads I've used (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/smileys/nuts.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/smileys/shifter.gif)

Anyway it's nearly 8pm now and the music is still playing with zero incidents of white noise.

I'm quietly confident I now have a 16 usable channel DL :)

And after last nights incredibly successful gig I'm feeling pretty chuffed right now (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/smileys/yahoo.gif)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kev tyler on October 05, 2014, 09:22:06 AM
So what is different in your set up, is it the new lead, sorry just got up.
Cheers

Kev
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 05, 2014, 09:24:21 AM
Happy daze iBloke👍😉
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 05, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
So what is different in your set up, is it the new lead, sorry just got up.
Cheers

Kev
I went to the closest Apple Store today (200km round trip)

I bought an iPhone 6

While I was there I bought a 30 pin - lightning adaptor lead (shown in the above picture)

I am now able to plug my iPad mini (lightning dock connector) in to my DL1608 (30 pin dock connector)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 05, 2014, 10:21:40 AM
Happy daze iBloke👍😉

Thanks Robbo. Fingers crossed :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 05, 2014, 12:03:35 PM
... an apple 30 pin to lightning adapter lead which measures 200mm long.

I've used it to plug my iPad mini into the DL.

I've been playing music directly from the "docked" iPad mini for a cuppa hours now and have not had one incident of the dreaded "white noise".

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/96d4d49776659989cb700f5a8f66bb25_zpsedc7f943.jpg)

That's the same setup I'm using. Admittedly, I'm a new user, but when I first brought the mixer home and set everything up, I played music from the iPad for several hours, both from the iPad and an iPhone 5, while playing around with Master Fader and My Fader as well as other apps. Both of my devices are running iOS8. The whole time, I never had a white noise burst or a loss of communications.

Good to hear you had a good gig last night. I was set to debut the DL at our gig last night, but it got cancelled because the fellow who booked the gig failed to follow up with the venue/return their phone calls for a week-and-a-half.

Rock on!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kev tyler on October 05, 2014, 01:37:01 PM
So what is different in your set up, is it the new lead, sorry just got up.
Cheers

Kev
I went to the closest Apple Store today (200km round trip)

I bought an iPhone 6

While I was there I bought a 30 pin - lightning adaptor lead (shown in the above picture)

I am now able to plug my iPad mini (lightning dock connector) in to my DL1608 (30 pin dock connector)

Ok cheers.

Kev
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 05, 2014, 10:39:38 PM
G'day iBloke. I know why it's working, it's showing off in the Allen Heath cabinet. Take it out of there and it will go back to it's old Mackie habits.  ;D
On a more serious note China Post delivered my $8.69 toy, a USB meter. It of course arrived when I had an all day gig Sat. 7:00 am to 6:00 pm  of chorus coaching. My XAP800 system needed little attention so I worked on other things.  :)
So here are my results for the iPad charger a 10W unit. Full well knowing I would have to repeat all measurements once I add D+- test points for my memory scope. I did want a baseline so not all is lost. Since I ran down my iPad to 76% I started from there, I see no need to go to barely booting levels. Initially the charge started at 1.92 amps at 5.01V and over 3-4 hrs finally arrived at 100% at 1.18 amps 5.06V. So much for the USB V1.2 battery spec. Voltage range of 4.75V - 5.25V is OK but current exceeds 1.5 amps without shutdown. At this point 12:00PM I called it a day. I shut the iPad down and left it on the charger as I always do. Next day it was at 5.11V and 0.0 amps. so start-up of iPad that brought it to 100% and 5.11V @ 0.59 amps. I then tested the effects of screen brightness settings and found 0.44 to 1.75 amps as the range all at 5.06V. Re-plugging the charger brought it back to 1.6 amps with a slow decrease to 0.59 amps over ~40 minutes. Since brightness setting has a significant effect on current draw I set brightness at 50%. Re-plugging send it back to 1.6 amps and after 30 minutes it settled at 0.8 amps based on the new brightness setting. On to charging using a USB 3 port I found it at 0.45 amps and 4.96 V. reduced to a USB v2.0 spec. The iPad of course indicated no charging. No compliance with USB 3 out of Apple since it should have drawn 0.9 amps initially. Tomorrow I should receive my iPad load (.25 - 5.0 amp.) rheostat since I'm the impatient type not inclined to wait for batteries. Stay tuned cable test coming soon, before Oct. 15  :). Beginning to sound like Mackie's marketing dept..   >:D
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 06, 2014, 01:03:17 AM
G'day iBloke. I know why it's working, it's showing off in the Allen Heath cabinet. Take it out of there and it will go back to it's old Mackie habits.  ;D


Noooooooo!! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/gronk62/smileys/laugh.gif)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 06, 2014, 04:50:03 AM
Day 2 playing music direct using the mini as the "docked" iPad.

Hours of music playing and still zero incidents of the white noise blast.

Very Very happy so far!

So, does this mean the other three 30 pin dock connector iPads were "faulty" ?
And the iPad mini isn't?

Or does this mean that using a 30pin to lightning adaptor cable has somehow solved the issue for me?

Dunno. And really don't care. I'm 99% confident in doing gigs that require all 16 channels for the band, which means using the iPad mini docked via the cable to supply set break music.
Yes that means I'll need to carry a heavy mutha f***a iPad 3 to do wireless mixing but I can live with that for the few gigs I do that actually require all 16 channels for the mix.

Any other gig that only requires 14 or less channels for the mix I'm happy to dock the iPad 3, plug an iPod into channels 15 & 16, and wander around the venue with the nice light iPad mini.

I paid $48 for the 30pin to lightning adaptor cable. A lot of money, but that's just how it is down here in Australia.

MUCH cheaper than the $160 - $180 I'd need to spend on a Mackie iPad mini tray + lightning dock upgrade for the DL.

VERY happy  ;D
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 07, 2014, 12:37:24 AM
So, does this mean the other three 30 pin dock connector iPads were "faulty" ?
And the iPad mini isn't?

I wonder if maybe the charging load of the Mini is significantly lower than the older "full size" iPads, and so the charge circuit isn't be loaded to the point that the offending ripple is appearing on the line... And, maybe new "full size" iPads with Lightning also require less charging current... Hmm...
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 08, 2014, 12:50:17 AM
New revelations. I was for whatever reason under the impression that control and data were separated, well surprise their not  :-[. It would have made the analysis much simpler. Looking back at my notes from over a year ago I realized that the 30 pin board only handled USB and a few control lines and test point were brought out for TX, RX but never continued to the DL even though the serial ground line was . Good to read your own notes. So fall back and punt. That means ALL data and control messages are send over the USB channel and yes it's on one cable. Sorry Mackie engineer you did stick to convention. You however need a course in grounding techniques, NO tying of shield to signal ground!  ::) What's the point of a shield then? This communication method unfortunately keeps the USB lines busy and a Mandolin protocol analyzer is needed to make sense of D+- traffic. Not going to happen here. A few basic tests can be performed and signal noise can be evaluated but that's it. A note on extension cables here. The one's I've seen don't meet USB specs and a DIY custom cable may help that meets spec. The other lines should be OK with 22-24 gauge runs. The whole thing shielded but the right way, not by tying shields to signal ground. This would require a wire to the cables from the DL chassis ground, not difficult at all. Correction of Mackie's wiring is required as well, although it's probably incorrect on the motherboard. Reducing the noise on the MB may help, see pin one problem and solution. Now back to the sync/noise issue. Since reports have indicated that recording continued while sync was lost, that would rule out loss of control communications due to hardware. CRC's are in all USB control messages and for them retries are the norm for properly written drivers. S O F T W A R E is the only thing that can cause this loss of sync. I did have to pull the 30 pin board one more time just to verify the connections and a couple of minor corrections will be made to the prior board description.    http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=464.0
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 08, 2014, 01:08:58 AM
WK;

"S O F T W A R E is the only thing that can cause this loss of sync"

I am blown away with your technical knowledge. :thu: I understand some of what you just posted about the DL issue(s). With my limited computer skills I agree that it is a software problem. In that light, if I may ask a hopefully not too dumb question? Do you think that the updated soon to be released Master Fader will correct these issues?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 08, 2014, 01:11:10 AM
So, does this mean the other three 30 pin dock connector iPads were "faulty" ?
And the iPad mini isn't?

I wonder if maybe the charging load of the Mini is significantly lower than the older "full size" iPads, and so the charge circuit isn't be loaded to the point that the offending ripple is appearing on the line... And, maybe new "full size" iPads with Lightning also require less charging current... Hmm...
Offending ripple on what line? The shielded twisted pair D+- differential lines. I don't think so. Any change in the NRZ data would be picked up by the CRC check in a properly written driver. Here are the battery capacities for iPads.
iPad 1      6613 Mah
iPad 2      6944  "
iPad 3     11540  "
iPad 4     11560  "
Air           8837  "
Mini org.   4490  "
Mini curr.  6471  "
Doubt that this has any effect.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 08, 2014, 01:12:58 AM
WK;

"S O F T W A R E is the only thing that can cause this loss of sync"

I am blown away with your technical knowledge. :thu: I understand some of what you just posted about the DL issue(s). With my limited computer skills I agree that it is a software problem. In that light, if I may ask a hopefully not too dumb question? Do you think that the updated soon to be released Master Fader will correct these issues?
BenO would be the one to answer that, e-mail him.  ;D
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 08, 2014, 01:22:49 AM
Yes, but I may not unfortunately get a straight answer. I would appreciate and value your professional opinion, if you wouldn't mind?  :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 08, 2014, 02:13:18 AM
Yes, but I may not unfortunately get a straight answer. I would appreciate and value your professional opinion, if you wouldn't mind?  :)
You won't know until you try BenO.
Unfortunately my opinion isn't going to change the facts which will be clear once the software is available. I, like all others that have DL problems would like them to go away. What is not clear is when that event will happen. Oct. 15 or much later.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 08, 2014, 12:03:25 PM
You won't know until you try BenO.
Unfortunately my opinion isn't going to change the facts which will be clear once the software is available. I, like all others that have DL problems would like them to go away. What is not clear is when that event will happen. Oct. 15 or much later.

Very true. But thank you for your reply though. :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 12, 2014, 05:58:03 AM
Just an update on the noise issue.

Absolutely zero problems running my iPad mini + 30pin to lightning cable.
10's of hours music playback with no issue.

BUT, slide the iPad 3 (or either of two other ipad 2's) into the DL and the White noise happens within minutes.

I think it's conclusive enough for me to spend the ca$h on an iPad mini tray kit, and a lightning upgrade kit (about $180 down here in AUS)

Although 90% of my gigs only require less than 14 channels so channel 15 & 16 can be sacrificed to an iPod for set break music.

But then today I had a booking come in from a band that usually needs 18 channels. I asked him about the stage layout and he says that 9 channels are for drum mics.  ::)
I explained to him that the venue he has me booked for is a relatively small room (100-150 punters) and overhead mics are really not required. I've done many gigs in this particular room.
In fact due to the patrons at this venue and the small size of the room I've used only a kick drum mic, and 1 overhead mic which has been more than enough.

Sometimes it's necessary to explain the "real world" to cover band Musos who seem to think they need massive concert hall mic'ing.

Anyway if he's not happy with the gear supplied for my low budget quote I'm 100% cool with that. It's only a hobby for me these days, and I'm more than happy to pass on a gig with a band that has huge egos, and unrealistic requirements for tiny venues  ;D

My long term established client base knows what I can provide and are happy to save mega bucks compared to the almost double $$ the music industry charges for the same gear.

I may even drop my hire price more now that I don't ever need to run a mlulticore, and a big rack of FX & processors.
Last gig I found a nice comfy, high backed chair right at the back of the venue where I sat down and not only had a perfect position for mixing the show, but also being able to thoroughly enjoy the music. (A Fleetwood Mac tribute band)

Even though I'm a jaded, and seriously grumpy old bastard I'm finding that since owning and using a DL I'm actually enjoying doing gigs.

Who woulda thunk it eh!! :D
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 12, 2014, 09:49:09 AM
Good post iBloke, "you speaka my language"!
(He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 12, 2014, 10:32:52 AM
Good post iBloke, "you speaka my language"!
(He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich)

LMAO  :lol:
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Kev tyler on October 12, 2014, 01:46:03 PM
I hate sound checking drummers in tiny rooms, set up  2 feet behind the singer backing singer and guitar singer, as if you are not going to hear the kit.

 :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: sam.spoons on October 12, 2014, 08:45:15 PM
Good post iBloke, "you speaka my language"!
(He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich)

LMAO  :lol:

Bugger, I sang those very words on a gig last week  :facepalm:
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 27, 2014, 07:00:14 AM
A quick and positive update.

I own several iphones, IP3GS, IP4, IP5, and IP6. All of them are running their most current iOS version.

I also own three iPads. iPad 2, iPad 3, and iPad mini retina. (And my wife has another iPad 2)

Up until today the only iPad I own, or have access to, that doesn't play a part in the "white noise issue" is my iPad mini, which I connect to my DL using a 30pin to lightning adapter lead. Zero issues with it so far.

I finished updating all my iDevices to iOS 8.1 this morning, and have been playing music from my docked iPad 3 for several hours with zero incidents of the dreaded white noise.
Normally the iPad 3 would blast white noise within 30 mins of connecting.
Not a single squeak so far!

I'm a little bit excited that my white noise issue with the iPad 3 May have been sorted by the iOS 8.1 update, which basically means I've now got 16 channels to use for mixing bands again. And can play set break music from my docked iPad.

Fingers crossed :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: RoadRanger on October 27, 2014, 05:17:50 PM
Woo! :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 27, 2014, 06:18:20 PM
So most likely a software problem after all.....
Glad to hear all going well for you now iBloke!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 27, 2014, 06:40:39 PM
So most likely a software problem after all.....
Glad to hear all going well for you now iBloke!

And, if this holds true, an Apple problem, not a Mackie problem...
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 27, 2014, 06:48:16 PM
IIRC iBloke stated that in one of the tests during "white noise" he pulled the ipad from the dock and the noise continued. This would seem to eliminate the iPad altogether except for the possible initiator of it. Where does that leave the DL? No matter what the source it's a Mackie product ergo a Mackie problem. Apple is definitely not going to solve it. For those with short memories....    http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=700.msg6820#msg6820
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 27, 2014, 07:14:55 PM
Let's hope that iBloke is going to continue to have good luck and the white noise issue has been eliminated for him, no matter how it happened. My fingers are crossed. (no wonder I can't type!)   :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 27, 2014, 07:16:14 PM
IIRC iBloke stated that in one of the tests during "white noise" he pulled the ipad from the dock and the noise continued. This would seem to eliminate the iPad altogether except for the possible initiator of it. Where does that leave the DL? No matter what the source it's a Mackie product ergo a Mackie problem. Apple is definitely not going to solve it.

I can see where the iPad, for some reason, would through garbage at the D/A converters that would leave them in an ambiguous state. If the iPad is pulled out before good data is received, they could become "stuck" there. Might there be a way to error check that? Maybe. It all depends on the D/A converter.

As far as it being Mackie's problem and no one else's, that a load of crap. If you float the ground on an XLR cable, and that causes hum on your SSL board, is that an SSL problem? No, it's not.

If the singer spits into your SM58 one time to many and it gums up the transducer and the mic starts to sound more like crap than an SM58 usually sounds through the PA, is that the fault of the PA? No, it's not.

So, if the Apple product throws crap into the Mackie product, and it causes the Mackie product to react badly, it's not a Mackie problem, it's an Apple problem.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 27, 2014, 07:29:25 PM
IIRC iBloke stated that in one of the tests during "white noise" he pulled the ipad from the dock and the noise continued. This would seem to eliminate the iPad altogether except for the possible initiator of it. Where does that leave the DL? No matter what the source it's a Mackie product ergo a Mackie problem. Apple is definitely not going to solve it.

I can see where the iPad, for some reason, would through garbage at the D/A converters that would leave them in an ambiguous state. If the iPad is pulled out before good data is received, they could become "stuck" there. Might there be a way to error check that? Maybe. It all depends on the D/A converter.

As far as it being Mackie's problem and no one else's, that a load of crap. If you float the ground on an XLR cable, and that causes hum on your SSL board, is that an SSL problem? No, it's not.

If the singer spits into your SM58 one time to many and it gums up the transducer and the mic starts to sound more like crap than an SM58 usually sounds through the PA, is that the fault of the PA? No, it's not.

So, if the Apple product throws crap into the Mackie product, and it causes the Mackie product to react badly, it's not a Mackie problem, it's an Apple problem.
Hardly a "load of crap" Apple didn't write MF Mackie did. All your other examples are external to a fully functional DL. Yes they can affect the "Audio System" but we're talking about a DL here which does not function well without a iPad/isomething.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 27, 2014, 07:32:47 PM
Hardly a "load of crap" Apple didn't write MF Mackie did. All your other examples are external to a fully functional DL. Yes they can affect the "Audio System" but we're talking about a DL here which does not function well without a iPad/isomething.

If the iPad is spitting crap, the DL is going to pass that crap.

While your mind is VERY obviously closed to the possibility that it's not a Mackie problem, the rest of us will do the right thing, and 1) see what iBloke's longer test results are, and (2) update some iPads that are, in concert with their mated DLs, exhibiting the problem and see if it clears it up.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 27, 2014, 07:50:57 PM
Hardly a "load of crap" Apple didn't write MF Mackie did. All your other examples are external to a fully functional DL. Yes they can affect the "Audio System" but we're talking about a DL here which does not function well without a iPad/isomething.

If the iPad is spitting crap, the DL is going to pass that crap.

While your mind is VERY obviously closed to the possibility that it's not a Mackie problem, the rest of us will do the right thing, and 1) see what iBloke's longer test results are, and (2) update some iPads that are, in concert with their mated DLs, exhibiting the problem and see if it clears it up.
Your logic has more holes than my pasta strainer and you clearly don't understand the problem. You might want to read the whole thread and nothing but the thread so help yourself. :) As far as you speaking for the "rest of us" that's pretty presumptuous.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: gerenm63 on October 27, 2014, 07:54:25 PM
Your logic has more holes than my pasta strainer and you clearly don't understand the problem. You might want to read the whole thread and nothing but the thread so help yourself. :) As far as you speaking for the "rest of us" that's pretty presumptuous.

I've read ALL of the related threads. I DO understand the problem. I also have DECADES of troubleshooting experience with both analog and digital audio as well as analog and digital video systems, and continue to work DAILY with such systems. You simply refuse to believe this could be anything but Mackie's problem. Guess what. It's possible that you are wrong.

It's also possible that I am wrong -- I'll freely admit that. But, we now have evidence of at least one iPad that had a consistent problem, and an update to its software has altered the results.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 27, 2014, 08:08:10 PM


the rest of us will do the right thing, and 1) see what iBloke's longer test results are, and (2) update some iPads that are, in concert with their mated DLs, exhibiting the problem and see if it clears it up.

Couldn't hurt to give it a go. Nothing to lose by trying. ;)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 27, 2014, 08:14:01 PM
Your logic has more holes than my pasta strainer and you clearly don't understand the problem. You might want to read the whole thread and nothing but the thread so help yourself. :) As far as you speaking for the "rest of us" that's pretty presumptuous.

I've read ALL of the related threads. I DO understand the problem. I also have DECADES of troubleshooting experience with both analog and digital audio as well as analog and digital video systems, and continue to work DAILY with such systems. You simply refuse to believe this could be anything but Mackie's problem. Guess what. It's possible that you are wrong.
I guess it's in the definition of what is a Mackie problem and that according to your logic would make it the D/A manufacturer problem if that's what caused it, not Mackie's. ::) In that case I'm wrong.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 27, 2014, 08:27:18 PM


the rest of us will do the right thing, and 1) see what iBloke's longer test results are, and (2) update some iPads that are, in concert with their mated DLs, exhibiting the problem and see if it clears it up.

Couldn't hurt to give it a go. Nothing to lose by trying. ;)
Agreed or as Clint would say "make my day". Reminds me of a song by Garth "Blameless", was he singing about Mackie?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 27, 2014, 10:13:18 PM
IIRC iBloke stated that in one of the tests during "white noise" he pulled the ipad from the dock and the noise continued. This would seem to eliminate the iPad altogether except for the possible initiator of it. Where does that leave the DL? No matter what the source it's a Mackie product ergo a Mackie problem. Apple is definitely not going to solve it.

I can see where the iPad, for some reason, would through garbage at the D/A converters that would leave them in an ambiguous state. If the iPad is pulled out before good data is received, they could become "stuck" there. Might there be a way to error check that? Maybe. It all depends on the D/A converter.

As far as it being Mackie's problem and no one else's, that a load of crap. If you float the ground on an XLR cable, and that causes hum on your SSL board, is that an SSL problem? No, it's not.

If the singer spits into your SM58 one time to many and it gums up the transducer and the mic starts to sound more like crap than an SM58 usually sounds through the PA, is that the fault of the PA? No, it's not.

So, if the Apple product throws crap into the Mackie product, and it causes the Mackie product to react badly, it's not a Mackie problem, it's an Apple problem.
+1 to that. This is a definite possibility IMHO.
Weren't there other manufacturers audio devices experiencing white noise problems too? I'm sure I read that in an earlier thread??
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 27, 2014, 10:46:55 PM

Agreed or as Clint would say "make my day". Reminds me of a song by Garth "Blameless", was he singing about Mackie?

Yes it does.  :thu:
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: James91104 on October 27, 2014, 11:42:41 PM
Hello, though I have no firsthand experience or knowledge of the topic of discussion from which to draw from and contribute to this thread, I would like to share a thought process of mine for consideration to the DL, iOs, iPad blame game.

The Roland M-200 mixer has iTunes music control facilities from within the M-200 Remote iPad app with audio data transferred via a Roland supplied 30-pin proprietary connection cable, with the ability for the iPad stereo audio to be patched and routed to any of the inputs and/or outputs on the M-200. Currently only a 30 pin cable is available for the M-200, but a Lightning cable is soon to be released.           
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/m-200i-remote/id588276040?mt=8 

Of note, the Roland app is currently version 1.05, and is compatible with ALL iPads and ALL iOS 5.1 or later including iOS8. The same compatibility applies to the Roland M-300 & M-480 Remote apps for their respective mixers.
Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, The Roland apps appear to be the most fully and backwards compatible of any and all performance audio digital mixers corresponding iPad apps. In addition, where most manufacture`s apps have been updated to versions 2.XX and above, the M-200, M-300 and M-480 apps have remained at 1.XX with minimum updates.

Here again I have no firsthand experience with the Roland M-200, but more importantly and to a point, from the little I have found from internet searches and calls into Roland Systems Group there appears to be NO such end-user claims of white noise issues from that ipad/mixer app player.

Though I am certainly of no authority to point fingers much less issue an indictment of blame on the source of much discussion and debate, I am inclined to suspect the DL as the more likely culprit with what the Roland comparison can provide as any evidence, though admittedly proves nothing.

I fortunately have never had to experience the dreaded white noise blast, perhaps lucky or perhaps dependent on the very particulars of my past use of my DL. As it turns out that one is a dead parrot anyways, but that is another story.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 28, 2014, 01:04:04 AM
The saga may now be at an end with iOS8.1.
To blame Mackie for something which, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't occur until iOS6 seems unfair.
That's to say, the DL worked as expected at launch with the iOS available at the time.
Just my two pence worth :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 28, 2014, 01:13:08 AM

It's also possible that I am wrong -- I'll freely admit that. But, we now have evidence of at least one iPad that had a consistent problem, and an update to its software has altered the results.

I have zero knowledge of the technical details behind this problem.
And I've said that I don't care who's fault it is. Apple or mackie, or a combination of both.
I just wanted it to go away.

Since updating IP 3 to iOS 8.1 yesterday I've tried everything to coax the noise and so far it's remained 100% stable.
I have another gig tomorrow night and will use the docked IP3 to play set break music for the first time.
I'm feeling pretty confident  :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Wynnd on October 28, 2014, 01:42:03 AM
I'm hoping that everyone's experience duplicates yours.  It would be nice for a cure.  If the white noise was caused by some sort of loop, maybe Apple made some error handling changes that look for it and stop it before anyone notices.  Whatever caused it.  I'm waiting for someone else to do the update and still have the problem.  (And I'm praying that no one continues to have the problem.)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2014, 02:12:10 AM
Here's a possibility and we know this hasn't been fixed in MF since no update exists for iOS8.x. From Studio 6 Digital:

Here’s why some iOS 8 updates break our apps

Just figured this out this morning. Apple provides the ability to change the mic gain on many devices, including all iPhones. Prior to iOS 8, iPad 2, iPad 3, and iPad mini did not support this feature. The good news is that now those devices do have adjustable gain, but the bad news is that the gain factors are completely different than they were in all of the previous devices. So, when AudioTools starts up, it detects the adjustable gain and sets the mic to the values that worked before. Only now, those values result in the gain being set so low that the input basically shuts off.

We have a fix working here, but unfortunately we also need to update all of the modules for compatibility with iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus. We have both devices here, and we are making good progress. We hope to get an update to Apple this week, which likely would be approved by next week.

In the meantime, you can set the gain values for the internal mic to about 30, and you will get some results, but only for louder sounds.
If you quiet the noise will it bother you? They've since fixed that problem but there are more.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 28, 2014, 02:48:23 AM
Here's a possibility and we know this hasn't been fixed in MF since no update exists for iOS8.x. From Studio 6 Digital:

Here’s why some iOS 8 updates break our apps

Just figured this out this morning. Apple provides the ability to change the mic gain on many devices, including all iPhones. Prior to iOS 8, iPad 2, iPad 3, and iPad mini did not support this feature. The good news is that now those devices do have adjustable gain, but the bad news is that the gain factors are completely different than they were in all of the previous devices. So, when AudioTools starts up, it detects the adjustable gain and sets the mic to the values that worked before. Only now, those values result in the gain being set so low that the input basically shuts off.

We have a fix working here, but unfortunately we also need to update all of the modules for compatibility with iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus. We have both devices here, and we are making good progress. We hope to get an update to Apple this week, which likely would be approved by next week.

In the meantime, you can set the gain values for the internal mic to about 30, and you will get some results, but only for louder sounds.
If you quiet the noise will it bother you? They've since fixed that problem but there are more.


???????
Sorry WK, not following you!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2014, 03:16:01 AM
Robbo before I answer that I need to know from iBloke if he changed the music playback program since his other tests and what is it? Remember that MF may or may not process that data or whether it just commands the DL of what it's about to receive. Sorry I'm not privy to the code. :) Ah but I do know that the app like music which I believe was being used for the tests has been modified by Apple for iOS 8.x and it does control the volume before it's passed on to the DL (change number one). The DL then can further control the volume (iPad faders) before sending it on it's way to the PA. It actually get worst than that because Apple likes to control the World and may also pass the audio stream thru it's audio-limiter (Katz's answer to the loudness wars) if you haven't turned it off. :) Remember this is all digital audio till it hits the DL D/A's.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 28, 2014, 03:19:37 AM
Robbo before I answer that I need to know from iBloke if he changed the music playback program since his other tests and what is it? Remember that MF may or may not process that data or whether it just commands the DL about what it's about to receive. Sorry I'm not privy to the code. :)

I use both apple music app, and Tango music app. Tango give me the ability to set up play lists wirelessly.

These are the only 2 music apps I've ever used and the White noise was equally common in both. :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2014, 03:51:05 AM
I know that Music app has been modified for iOS8 has Tango and have you used it recently wired the October 7th version which includes iOS 8 fixes.?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 28, 2014, 03:59:28 AM
I know that Music app has been modified for iOS8 has Tango and have you used it recently wired?

Yep it was updated on the 15th October but still only requires a minimum of iOS 5
Tango Remote with Up Next Queue by Blue Atlas Technology, LLC
https://appsto.re/au/I3iLu.i

And I'm using right now to make playlists on the docked ipad3. 
It also plays very nicely with my airport :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: pytchley on October 28, 2014, 01:33:10 PM
IIRC iBloke stated that in one of the tests during "white noise" he pulled the ipad from the dock and the noise continued. This would seem to eliminate the iPad altogether except for the possible initiator of it. Where does that leave the DL? No matter what the source it's a Mackie product ergo a Mackie problem. Apple is definitely not going to solve it. For those with short memories....    http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=700.msg6820#msg6820
Not on my iPad3, white noise stops when I undock. No white noise with mini and apple adapter cable so far. I'm one of the "ten" by the way. It would be interesting to hear from the other "nine" who filled in Mackie's questionaire....see how many we really were.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2014, 03:32:34 PM
IIRC iBloke stated that in one of the tests during "white noise" he pulled the ipad from the dock and the noise continued. This would seem to eliminate the iPad altogether except for the possible initiator of it. Where does that leave the DL? No matter what the source it's a Mackie product ergo a Mackie problem. Apple is definitely not going to solve it. For those with short memories....    http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=700.msg6820#msg6820
Not on my iPad3, white noise stops when I undock. No white noise with mini and apple adapter cable so far. I'm one of the "ten" by the way. It would be interesting to hear from the other "nine" who filled in Mackie's questionaire....see how many we really were.
If that is indeed the case that by pulling the iPad stops the noise then that changes a lot of my assumptions. A buffer would only last a couple of milliseconds and I doubt if iBloke was that fast in shutting down his system to stop the noise. Don't know what to make of this yet. Yes you are one of the ten.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Nottoodeaf on October 28, 2014, 03:36:25 PM
I am one of the nine.  Can't help though.  I bought an x32 Rack about a year ago and haven't used my DL since.  Weird thing is, I haven't sold it yet.  I keep thinking that if I use freelance engineer on one of my multistage events that it would be much easier for him/her to get up to speed on the DL....the GUI is still one of the most intuitive.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 28, 2014, 11:12:23 PM
We can always approach this from a more general point of view. The playback which occasionally causes "white noise" played back by various programs on a whole lot of other PA equipment AFAIK has no reported "white noise" issues. If you know of any let us in on the secret (provide the link). So it only and rarely happens on Mackie equipment. iPads or iPhones aren't the issue because by now someone would have had a problem with other gear and posted it. I found the problem, it's MACKIE end of story.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 29, 2014, 01:18:14 AM
We can always approach this from a more general point of view. The playback which occasionally causes "white noise" played back by various programs on a whole lot of other PA equipment AFAIK has no reported "white noise" issues. If you know of any let us in on the secret (provide the link). So it only and rarely happens on Mackie equipment. iPads or iPhones aren't the issue because by now someone would have had a problem with other gear and posted it. I found the problem, it's MACKIE end of story.
I think you're jumping the gun with the blame game here WK.
I'm not happy to let you be judge, jury and executioner of Mackie, just on your presumptions.
You're becoming very "JL like" in what is sounding increasingly like anti Mackie rhetoric.

IMHO there are simply too many variables for you to state "it's MACKIE end of story."

Because there are so many variables I won't say that Mackie definitely aren't to blame either.
Just because the white noise does or doesn't manifest itself in other equipment, does not necessarily mean that Mackie are at fault here.

Bear in mind people, before apportioning blame:

1. AFAIK Mackie released a product that had no white noise issue with the iOS available at the time.

2. iOS8.1 seems to have solved the "issue".

3. Different audio interface manufacturers have different design & construction (obviously).
An issue deep in an iOS version may or may not have a bearing on a particular piece of hardware.
If a problem does occur, it doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware is at fault (especially when considering point 1 above)

You cannot say definitively that Mackie are at fault any more than I can say they are not at fault.
WK, you are well respected here by many because of your accrued technical knowledge.
As they say, "with power and influence comes responsibility" ;)
Until you have hard data to back up your claims, perhaps you should qualify your statements with "in my opinion"?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 29, 2014, 02:17:33 AM
It was a very early in my random experiments to try and find one particular thing that would recreate the white noise "on demand" and for the first few days I gave myself quite a few scares when random VERY loud blasts would happen without even touching the DL.

There was only one occasion in a moment of mad panic to stop the noise that I grabbed the DL and slid it away from the dock connector at the same time as frantically poking at mute buttons.

In hindsight there have been many times when the noise happened that I question myself as to whether the noise kept going for micro seconds after undocking on that one occasion simply because that was the only time I thought it happened.

Whether it did or didn't doesnt matter to me anymore because right now that same ipad 3 that stays docked, and without fail has been part of the noise blast dozens and dozens of times, has not produced one single incident since it's update to iOS 8.1 (previously 7.1.2).

So without having any technical knowledge I could simply point my finger at apple.
But then there are many other DL users that haven't updated to iOS 8.1 yet and are on the latest version prior to iOS 8 which is 7.1.2
If it was 100% the fault of apple then why are all these other iPad users not getting the noise issue?

If its an iPad hardware problem only affecting a few DL users, then why is my ipad 3 now "cured" ?

I just don't know, and don't really care anymore, as long as it stays "cured"  :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 29, 2014, 02:52:20 AM
We can always approach this from a more general point of view. The playback which occasionally causes "white noise" played back by various programs on a whole lot of other PA equipment AFAIK has no reported "white noise" issues. If you know of any let us in on the secret (provide the link). So it only and rarely happens on Mackie equipment. iPads or iPhones aren't the issue because by now someone would have had a problem with other gear and posted it. I found the problem, it's MACKIE end of story.
I think you're jumping the gun with the blame game here WK.
I'm not happy to let you be judge, jury and executioner of Mackie, just on your presumptions.
You're becoming very "JL like" in what is sounding increasingly like anti Mackie rhetoric.

IMHO there are simply too many variables for you to state "it's MACKIE end of story."

Because there are so many variables I won't say that Mackie definitely aren't to blame either.
Just because the white noise does or doesn't manifest itself in other equipment, does not necessarily mean that Mackie are at fault here.

Bear in mind people, before apportioning blame:

1. AFAIK Mackie released a product that had no white noise issue with the iOS available at the time.

2. iOS8.1 seems to have solved the "issue".

3. Different audio interface manufacturers have different design & construction (obviously).
An issue deep in an iOS version may or may not have a bearing on a particular piece of hardware.
If a problem does occur, it doesn't necessarily mean that the hardware is at fault (especially when considering point 1 above)

You cannot say definitively that Mackie are at fault any more than I can say they are not at fault.
WK, you are well respected here by many because of your accrued technical knowledge.
As they say, "with power and influence comes responsibility" ;)
Until you have hard data to back up your claims, perhaps you should qualify your statements with "in my opinion"?
Robbo let me remind you of the following and I haven't changed my mind.  http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=236.msg1194#msg1194
I am neither judge or jury certainly not executioner and I resent the "JL' comparison. It's however time for Mackie to fix THEIR problem and I hope they do. I have had many a discussion with BenO, far more than I have stated here regarding the DL, that I feel are private. This however does not give Mackie a license to ignore the customers that are experiencing this problem especially since Mackie has publicly acknowledged the problem. I am not as I stated many times before experiencing this issue. This makes my diagnosis dependent on other peoples input. Do you feel that it's tough luck for those that have experienced "white noise"? As to 8.1 having fixed the problem I feel it"s premature.  What I post here has ALWAYS BEEN MY OPINION what would change that? I have had "hard facts" that anyone else could verify but did Mackie correct their problem (pin one), NO. I tend to judge companies by their track record with me.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 29, 2014, 08:02:44 AM

If its an iPad hardware problem only affecting a few DL users, then why is my ipad 3 now "cured" ?

I just don't know, and don't really care anymore, as long as it stays "cured"  :)

Ok I spoke to soon. I'm set up for a gig and have been running back ground music from the docked ipad, and it just spat the white noise for the first time in 3 days.

So not "cured" after all  :(
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: redwood on October 29, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
well that's a drag

FWIW beno said (with fingers crossed, his words) that it was fixed in MF3.0, coming out in November
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: iBloke on October 29, 2014, 01:14:33 PM
well that's a drag

FWIW beno said (with fingers crossed, his words) that it was fixed in MF3.0, coming out in November

I hope he's right.

I really thought the problem was cured due to the nearly 3 days, and tens of hours of music playback from the docked ipad 3.
It's never gone longer than an hour or two before. And sometimes it happened within minutes of booting up.

Oh well.. I've had a ton of gigs this past month and have a pocket full of spending money which may get thrown at a new iPad air + tray & lightning kit.

Or maybe at the very least an iPad mini tray kit so it can become the docked ipad. I've never once had a hiccup with it docked via the 30pin to lightning adaptor lead. (200mm apple branded)

It turned out to be a great gig tonight, despite the 20 seconds of embarrassing white noise which turned the heads of every punter in the pub until I finally reached the DL and shut it off.
I'm so glad I only had the background music set very low as it was dinner time  :-[
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 29, 2014, 02:29:56 PM

If its an iPad hardware problem only affecting a few DL users, then why is my ipad 3 now "cured" ?

I just don't know, and don't really care anymore, as long as it stays "cured"  :)

Ok I spoke to soon. I'm set up for a gig and have been running back ground music from the docked ipad, and it just spat the white noise for the first time in 3 days.

So not "cured" after all  :(

Just when you think everything is okay...   :facepalm:  Let's hope MF3 with the firmware update is the ticket.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 29, 2014, 03:55:13 PM
well that's a drag

FWIW beno said (with fingers crossed, his words) that it was fixed in MF3.0, coming out in November
Where did you read that? Link if possible. I clearly missed that.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: redwood on October 29, 2014, 04:02:05 PM
well that's a drag

FWIW beno said (with fingers crossed, his words) that it was fixed in MF3.0, coming out in November
Where did you read that? Link if possible. I clearly missed that.
[/quote]

scroll down to read the conversation in the (different) topic here:

https://mackie.uservoice.com/forums/97035-dl-series/suggestions/3013706-add-virtual-subgroups-to-allow-group-processing-of

for the record I'm John Penovich
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 29, 2014, 04:29:22 PM
Thank you John. BenO's answer leaves much to interpretation. He implies that he hopes it's fixed.

"beno (Admin, Mackie) commented  ·  October 16, 2014 11:38  · 

Fingers crossed, white noise is fixed in 3.0."
 

Had Mackie found the source and solution to the problem he would have been far less tentative "Fingers crossed". But we all hope it's fixed, I'm getting tired of hearing about it.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: James91104 on October 29, 2014, 04:34:54 PM
Fingers crossed. Seriously? So moving forward is this how to keep the faith of the existing customer base and instill confidence for any future customer purchases of Mackie DL products ? Service after the sale has and is a significant factor in many individuals and businesses purchase decisions. Proceed with caution Mackoids, and perhaps cross yer toes as well.   
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: redwood on October 29, 2014, 05:36:33 PM
we'll just have to see....I'd rather have him under promise and over deliver than tell us "oh yeah man it's definitely fixed" and have it be incorrect.

don't get me wrong I want this fixed as well, but I'm not gonna get wrapped around the axle because they are being cautious about promising something that requires predicting the state of a great many variables.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Wynnd on October 29, 2014, 05:56:12 PM
I want it fixed for others that are experiencing it.  (Not me.)  It's a large blemish on a basically great mixer.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: redwood on October 29, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Absolutely...I'm willing to be patient for the moment. But with the arrival of the Behringer X series stuff (which looks very cool) Mackie is gonna have a hard time competing if it's not fixed.

A lot will be riding on this next release, as I'm sure they are aware. This may be their Antares rocket time.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: James91104 on October 29, 2014, 07:54:46 PM
Wrapped around the axle. have not heard that in a long while ;D
Sitting on the sidelines for near the entirety of this thread and related posts, just feeling sympathetic for the afflicted and conversely so for the suspected.
I concur with the desire for ultimately a fix for any and all who have had the unfortunate experience of what I can only imagine as what could be at minimum a public embarrassment and annoyance or worst a possible heart stopper & lawsuit producing event from The Blast.
Yes, we all await to see, hear and experience a fix, in ironically what should really equate to nothing, nothing unexpected that is.
As an aside, I myself am most curious to hear of user impressions post release  MF 3.0 of the stated` tons of great sounding reverbs and delays' on the DL32R and possible implementation of any such effects for the 1608/806 as that was the primary MF upgrade suggestion I had responded in favor of.
To borrow from a once aspiring campaign slogan, `Hope for Change'.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 08:38:51 AM
Thank you John. BenO's answer leaves much to interpretation. He implies that he hopes it's fixed.

"beno (Admin, Mackie) commented  ·  October 16, 2014 11:38  · 

Fingers crossed, white noise is fixed in 3.0."
 

Had Mackie found the source and solution to the problem he would have been far less tentative "Fingers crossed". But we all hope it's fixed, I'm getting tired of hearing about it.
I'm tired hearing about it too. Anybody experiencing it, use a channel instead of playing Russian Audio Roulette.
You'd think it was impossible to work around and was as bad as spontaneous combustion of the unit.
Perspective please. If this is the only problem people can grind on as an excuse to buy a Behringer, it's very sad.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 30, 2014, 01:51:45 PM
Thank you John. BenO's answer leaves much to interpretation. He implies that he hopes it's fixed.

"beno (Admin, Mackie) commented  ·  October 16, 2014 11:38  · 

Fingers crossed, white noise is fixed in 3.0."
 

Had Mackie found the source and solution to the problem he would have been far less tentative "Fingers crossed". But we all hope it's fixed, I'm getting tired of hearing about it.
I'm tired hearing about it too. Anybody experiencing it, use a channel instead of playing Russian Audio Roulette.
You'd think it was impossible to work around and was as bad as spontaneous combustion of the unit.
Perspective please. If this is the only problem people can grind on as an excuse to buy a Behringer, it's very sad.

I agree, that's why I don't even tempt fate. I always use CH. 15 & 16 for audio playback. Never ever used the iPad channel. In a perfect world this shouldn't happen. Then reality comes along and you have to work around or avoid the potential issues.

I always go to a gig with quite a bit of backup stuff for just in case. Spare mixer, cables, etc. etc. etc. You just never know what could happen. This is all for small venues. Don't do big productions and can't imagine how much gear and backup is carried around. A logistical nightmare indeed.   ;)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Nottoodeaf on October 30, 2014, 04:27:31 PM
Thank you John. BenO's answer leaves much to interpretation. He implies that he hopes it's fixed.

"beno (Admin, Mackie) commented  ·  October 16, 2014 11:38  · 

Fingers crossed, white noise is fixed in 3.0."
 

Had Mackie found the source and solution to the problem he would have been far less tentative "Fingers crossed". But we all hope it's fixed, I'm getting tired of hearing about it.
I'm tired hearing about it too. Anybody experiencing it, use a channel instead of playing Russian Audio Roulette.
You'd think it was impossible to work around and was as bad as spontaneous combustion of the unit.
Perspective please. If this is the only problem people can grind on as an excuse to buy a Behringer, it's very sad.

I agree, that's why I don't even tempt fate. I always use CH. 15 & 16 for audio playback. Never ever used the iPad channel. In a perfect world this shouldn't happen. Then reality comes along and you have to work around or avoid the potential issues.

I always go to a gig with quite a bit of backup stuff for just in case. Spare mixer, cables, etc. etc. etc. You just never know what could happen. This is all for small venues. Don't do big productions and can't imagine how much gear and backup is carried around. A logistical nightmare indeed.   ;)

There are many other reasons to buy an x32 Rack entirely unrelated to the white noise issue.  If you don't need 16 channels then I'm sure you tire of hearing from those that do, and are not in a position to dedicate 15 and 16 to music playback.  I bought a 16 channel DL1608 and got a 14 channel board instead.  So if you used 12 channels regularly, bought a 12 channel mixer, and only 10 of them worked, and the manufacturer said they could not fix those two channels, you would surely make some noise (hopefully not white).  Someone might tell you to just "Y" a few mics together and quit complaining.  Acceptable?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 05:08:05 PM
Since we're into analogies here it's like buying a car and it has 4 wheels and a steering wheel in the showroom, but when your ready to drive it of the lot you're told that it comes with 2 wheels standard (no record/playback) and no steering wheel (no iPad). Would you be a happy buyer? It's also not about Behringer, that's just one of the many other alternatives A&H, QSC, Yamaha etc..
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: sam.spoons on October 30, 2014, 05:14:23 PM
I'd change the analogy to an 18 wheeler, but when you buy it it has only 16 wheels. It still works but can't carry quite as heavy a load  ;)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 05:42:10 PM
Uhh, I didn't buy the DL for the iPad playback or record facility - which co-incidentally work perfectly as designed on mine. (just thought I'd remind you)
If you really need all 16 channels, all at once, immediately after you've finished playback from your iPad and happen to have the white noise issue, then that's bad luck.
If you are still are experiencing issues and you don't even own a DL mixer, that is extremely bad luck too.
With this non-issue being the high topic of conversation here (I'm helping perpetuate it, ironically), no wonder Mackie closed their forum down.





Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: redwood on October 30, 2014, 05:54:42 PM
Whether or not it's a big deal or not and can be solved with a workaround is beside the point. Did I buy it for the ipad playback? No, but it's included as a feature and ALL features should WORK.

That said as I've said in other posts I'll be patient until they work it out. To be honest I'm more jazzed about the other features in MFv3.0 than the possible white noise fix, but if it isn't fixed I'll be disappointed. Will I sell my DL1608 if it's not fixed soon? Probably not but the new X series stuff has some cool features, that - truth be told - had I waited I might have gone that way. The multitrack recording alone is very nice.

More importantly though, the ability of a manufacturer to address technical issues promptly informs us in our future purchasing decisions.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Nottoodeaf on October 30, 2014, 06:00:31 PM
Robbo, that's where the "perspective" that you urge comes into play.  You don't need or depend on the features that Mackie sold me on.  From your perspective, it's all good.  You are not lucky, you just got all that you were looking for.  I am not unlucky, I just didn't get what I was promised.  You have not seen me anywhere on this forum bashing Mackie or praising Behringer.  I think the DL1608 is a great 14 channel mixer!  I bought it as soon as available and it was a game changer for me (even though I have had to swap out two inputs before and after every set to avoid white noise).  The x32 rack has just expanded on that, but I'm not here to convince anyone as to the merits of either.  Peace out.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 06:22:13 PM
To be fair it really is a 16 channel mixer just not a reliable 18 channel one as described in their spec sheet. If they had removed the record feature from the manual (one paragraphs worth) and stated balanced i/o only, none of this discussion would have taken place and a Black eye would have been averted. Just a few more feature request would have been the results. A hard lesson to learn. Did it get them more sales? I doubt it.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 06:28:55 PM
To be fair it really is a 16 channel mixer just not a reliable 18 channel one as described in their spec sheet. If they had removed the record feature from the manual (one paragraphs worth) and stated balanced i/o only, none of this discussion would have taken place and a Black eye would have been averted. Just a few more feature request would have been the results. A hard lesson to learn. Did it get them more sales? I doubt it.
At what percentage of failure rate would you deem something unreliable?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 06:48:47 PM
To be fair it really is a 16 channel mixer just not a reliable 18 channel one as described in their spec sheet. If they had removed the record feature from the manual (one paragraphs worth) and stated balanced i/o only, none of this discussion would have taken place and a Black eye would have been averted. Just a few more feature request would have been the results. A hard lesson to learn. Did it get them more sales? I doubt it.
At what percentage of failure rate would you deem something unreliable?
It's not about numbers it's about a borderline feature that has embarrassed enough customers to warrant ~600 posts on this forum alone. An admission by Mackie that they have a problem. Who would have the actual numbers? Not even Mackie.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 07:09:23 PM
To be fair it really is a 16 channel mixer just not a reliable 18 channel one as described in their spec sheet. If they had removed the record feature from the manual (one paragraphs worth) and stated balanced i/o only, none of this discussion would have taken place and a Black eye would have been averted. Just a few more feature request would have been the results. A hard lesson to learn. Did it get them more sales? I doubt it.
At what percentage of failure rate would you deem something unreliable?
It's not about numbers it's about a borderline feature that has embarrassed enough customers to warrant ~600 posts on this forum alone. An admission by Mackie that they have a problem. Who would have the actual numbers? Not even Mackie.

Ten people, 60 posts each ;)
Or maybe 150 posts by people who actually own the mixer and 450 from those who are just along for the ride......or want to stick it to Mackie?
Unreliable it is not.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Nottoodeaf on October 30, 2014, 07:16:44 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 07:20:59 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Exactly my thinking.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Wynnd on October 30, 2014, 10:12:51 PM
The obvious cure is to remove the ipad channel.  No more white noise.  Problem cured.  I've rarely used it.  I went instead for using airplay and with one exception, airplay has worked everywhere I've tried it.  I like being able to play music while setting up.  And that takes up two channels.  (The way I do it.)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 10:56:52 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Exactly my thinking.
18,000 Visitors and counting on what certainly is not a mainstream forum about a very specific product and it's problem "white noise and sync". Do you think for one minute that your conclusions are even reasonable. I would much rather be discussing the feature set and addition of missing features than problems with this unit. That is if you can even get past the NAME issues.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: redwood on October 30, 2014, 11:02:38 PM
do those 18000 visitors have discreet IPs?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 11:04:43 PM
AFAIK the forum software tracks this. Try it see if the count goes up. Be sure you flush your cache.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 30, 2014, 11:07:37 PM
The obvious cure is to remove the ipad channel.  No more white noise.  Problem cured.  I've rarely used it.  I went instead for using airplay and with one exception, airplay has worked everywhere I've tried it.  I like being able to play music while setting up.  And that takes up two channels.  (The way I do it.)

That's exactly how I play walk-in-out music. Airplay and 2 channels used for it.   :thu:

Noob questions: Does the DL32R have an exclusive iPad Channel? If so, how does it work with no iPad dock?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
The obvious cure is to remove the ipad channel.  No more white noise.  Problem cured.  I've rarely used it.  I went instead for using airplay and with one exception, airplay has worked everywhere I've tried it.  I like being able to play music while setting up.  And that takes up two channels.  (The way I do it.)

That's exactly how I play walk-in-out music. Airplay and 2 channels used for it.   :thu:

Noob questions: Does the DL32R have an exclusive iPad Channel? If so, how does it work with no iPad dock?
No, that's how they solved their problem. No dock connector. Only mainstream USB and Ethernet connections.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 11:22:09 PM
One specific test I have no data on regarding this "white noise" issue is eliminating MF out of the mix once the initial connection setup is completed. That means making a connection with the DL then playing back music with whatever app you use and terminating MF. Does "white noise" appear after some time?
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 11:26:46 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Exactly my thinking.
18,000 Visitors and counting on what certainly is not a mainstream forum about a very specific product and it's problem "white noise and sync". Do you think for one minute that your conclusions are even reasonable. I would much rather be discussing the feature set and addition of missing features than problems with this unit. That is if you can even get past the NAME issues.
I think you are deluded if you are trying to imply that 18,000 visitors have come here just to read about the mythical white noise and sync issues :facepalm:
Post some figures to back that up please.

Maybe 18000 visitors since the site started.
As mentioned earlier, all the important stuff has been sorted out and now there are just "ten" people doing all the posting!
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 30, 2014, 11:26:54 PM
The obvious cure is to remove the ipad channel.  No more white noise.  Problem cured.  I've rarely used it.  I went instead for using airplay and with one exception, airplay has worked everywhere I've tried it.  I like being able to play music while setting up.  And that takes up two channels.  (The way I do it.)

That's exactly how I play walk-in-out music. Airplay and 2 channels used for it.   :thu:

Noob questions: Does the DL32R have an exclusive iPad Channel? If so, how does it work with no iPad dock?
No, that's how they solved their problem. No dock connector. Only mainstream USB and Ethernet connections.

Thanks!   :thu:
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 30, 2014, 11:35:31 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Exactly my thinking.
18,000 Visitors and counting on what certainly is not a mainstream forum about a very specific product and it's problem "white noise and sync". Do you think for one minute that your conclusions are even reasonable. I would much rather be discussing the feature set and addition of missing features than problems with this unit. That is if you can even get past the NAME issues.
I think you are deluded if you are trying to imply that 18,000 visitors have come here just to read about the mythical white noise and sync issues :facepalm:
Post some figures to back that up please.

Maybe 18000 visitors since the site started.
As mentioned earlier, all the important stuff has been sorted out and now there are just "ten" people doing all the posting!
I added up the 12 or so topics regarding "white noise and sync" and that's the number of views. You can gather your own data if you can add. It's all forum statistics. I'm sure everyone is trying to inflate the stats here. ::) I'm sure RR has access to more stats and trends about this forum.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on October 30, 2014, 11:40:43 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Exactly my thinking.
18,000 Visitors and counting on what certainly is not a mainstream forum about a very specific product and it's problem "white noise and sync". Do you think for one minute that your conclusions are even reasonable. I would much rather be discussing the feature set and addition of missing features than problems with this unit. That is if you can even get past the NAME issues.
I think you are deluded if you are trying to imply that 18,000 visitors have come here just to read about the mythical white noise and sync issues :facepalm:
Post some figures to back that up please.

Maybe 18000 visitors since the site started.
As mentioned earlier, all the important stuff has been sorted out and now there are just "ten" people doing all the posting!

That means I’m one of the 10 in a very tolerant, intelligent and professional group, of which I am very glad I’m a member of this particular forum. Haven’t regretted one moment since day one.  8)  :thu:

That was genuine, not sarcasm on my part.  :)
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 30, 2014, 11:49:34 PM
Keep in mind this forum probably reaches a fraction of the DL owners.  As things have been hashed out over many months the forum seems to have dwindled to a chat room for 10 or so people.   ;)  At any rate, I continue to monitor when there is an ios update or MF update.  I'm out.
Exactly my thinking.
18,000 Visitors and counting on what certainly is not a mainstream forum about a very specific product and it's problem "white noise and sync". Do you think for one minute that your conclusions are even reasonable. I would much rather be discussing the feature set and addition of missing features than problems with this unit. That is if you can even get past the NAME issues.
I think you are deluded if you are trying to imply that 18,000 visitors have come here just to read about the mythical white noise and sync issues :facepalm:
Post some figures to back that up please.

Maybe 18000 visitors since the site started.
As mentioned earlier, all the important stuff has been sorted out and now there are just "ten" people doing all the posting!
I added up the 12 or so topics regarding "white noise and sync" and that's the number of views. You can gather your own data if you can add. It's all forum statistics. I'm sure everyone is trying to inflate the stats here. ::) I'm sure RR has access to more stats and trends about this forum.
18000 views is one thing, 18000 different visitors is another thing altogether. You stated "18000 visitors" in your first quote. Which is it now?
People like me reading the pages over and over again in disbelief at some of the stated "facts", have undoubtedly bumped up the view count.
"You can gather your own data if you can add." How condescending and rather typical of you.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on October 31, 2014, 12:02:50 AM
Robbo:
18000 views is one thing, 18000 different visitors is another thing altogether.
People like me reading the pages over and over again in disbelief at some of the stated "facts", have undoubtedly bumped up the view count.
"You can gather your own data if you can add." How condescending and rather typical of you.
I'm tired of answering your "Fanboy" rhetoric. Provide some proof to back up your assertions. As to condescending what do you call this  xxxx?
I think you are deluded if you are trying to imply that 18,000 visitors have come here just to read about the mythical white noise and sync issues :facepalm:   :)
OH and then this pile of BS about the forum and it's members including yourself.

Welcome to the forum.  :)
Here are a few pointers to help you navigate between the truths and lies:
1. Please be advised that there are many different opinions here on the forum regarding the DL series of mixers.
2. Do not take post frequency and reply length as a sign of unchallenged authority or knowledge on any issue.
3. Some people posting do not currently, or have never owned a DL series mixer, they will not identify themselves but will usually have plenty to say.
4. The minority may seem like the majority and vice-versa. What becomes "reality" is directly proportional to the amount of time one has to post. :)
5. Facts do not have to be backed up with proof but with long winded posts and condescension. The truth? Who needs that anyway, it's the internet!
6. Mackie will be attacked frequently and blamed for everything, even climate change and global recession. But remember, if it wasn't for them, you wouldn't be here!
7. Try to avoid being sidetracked by following hyperlinks to rambling boredomsville.
8. Don't forget your pinch of salt with every "known fact" or statistic!
9. Behringer have their own forum but why go there? Stay here and agitate people who prefer not to buy that brand. "False Superiority Complex" is the name of the game!

Dear new visitor, best of luck as you navigate the forum :thu: :)

Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: robbocurry on October 31, 2014, 12:31:06 AM
Robbo:
18000 views is one thing, 18000 different visitors is another thing altogether.
People like me reading the pages over and over again in disbelief at some of the stated "facts", have undoubtedly bumped up the view count.
"You can gather your own data if you can add." How condescending and rather typical of you.
I'm tied of answering your "Fanboy" rhetoric. Provide some proof to back up your assertions. As to condescending what do you call this?
I think you are deluded if you are trying to imply that 18,000 visitors have come here just to read about the mythical white noise and sync issues :facepalm:   :)
If you can't understand the subtle difference between my quote and your quote I'll not bother trying to explain it to you.
Please add me to your ignore list. I've had enough of you too, and will be adding you to mine.


Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: RoadRanger on November 18, 2014, 05:47:20 AM
Fixed in V3.0 !
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=763.msg8251#msg8251
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=765.0
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on November 18, 2014, 07:39:19 AM
Fixed in V3.0 !
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=763.msg8251#msg8251
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=765.0
Time will tell since the operative word is "should". No explanation so far as to the cause but then who cares.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Keyboard Magic on November 18, 2014, 08:00:17 PM
My Soapbox:

We shouldn’t have to worry about whether or not the sync and white noise issues are fixed. Any of these platforms should work out of the box until the day they die. No questions. Period. A software/firmware update(s) should fix it if needed. We shouldn’t have to set up at a venue and either cross ourselves, say a prayer, bring in an exorcist, or a truckload of backup gear and hope that when that power switch is turned on, the blessed thing works every time.
Unfortunately, it seems like every new product, in the real world too, is in the same “sittin’ on the fence” category in this day and age.

I’m really getting old to remember when most products were built, way back in time, they almost out lasted us. Not anymore. Oh well. I guess if we didn’t have issues with stuff there wouldn’t be forums like this one to be a part of. There’s not a whole lot we can do about it. Even if we choose not to buy a certain product and go elsewhere, we’re going to run into, if not the same issues, different annoying problems. That’s life.

Fingers, Eyes and Toes Crossed!

Enough said.

Getting off Soapbox now.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Wynnd on November 18, 2014, 08:44:32 PM
I've had one car out of three brand new North American built cars with no problems straight off the show room floor.  Perfection is the exception, not the rule in brand new products.  Mackie should be worlds ahead by making Master Fader 3.0 work for all their ipad centric mixers.  And thanks for the incredible upgrade for our DL1608s.  I fully don't expect things to ever be perfect, and so far I've never been surprised when things aren't perfect.  I am pretty happy when things are functional and generally, my DL1608 experience has been quite functional.  It was a good purchase for me.  It has become a better one with each Master Fader upgrade.  (Wasn't expecting that.)  My only question is will this mixer carry me through my retirement from this business.  Only time will tell.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: nottooloud on November 19, 2014, 07:40:21 PM
Unfortunately, it seems like every new product, in the real world too, is in the same “sittin’ on the fence” category in this day and age.

I had very high hopes for the QSC TouchMix. They released with only onboard wifi, and only ad-hoc networking. It's barely functional under good conditions. They've promised to fix it, but they're not saying exactly how or when.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: WK154 on November 21, 2014, 05:50:40 PM
Unfortunately, it seems like every new product, in the real world too, is in the same “sittin’ on the fence” category in this day and age.

I had very high hopes for the QSC TouchMix. They released with only onboard wifi, and only ad-hoc networking. It's barely functional under good conditions. They've promised to fix it, but they're not saying exactly how or when.
They promised Jan 22 2015 V2.0 will fix a lot of WiFi. Another more powerful dongle with both Frequencies as I mentioned would go a long way to range and interference issues. Let's see if they meet their deadline.
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: nottooloud on November 21, 2014, 09:42:41 PM
They promised Jan 22 2015 V2.0 will fix a lot of WiFi. Another more powerful dongle with both Frequencies as I mentioned would go a long way to range and interference issues. Let's see if they meet their deadline.

Where did you see that date?

I'm more interested in them implementing normal networking than I am in buy a new dongle to suffer all the issues with ad-hoc from a little farther away.

[EDIT]

I hit this forum first. I'm really impressed. I never expected them to go all in. Ad-hoc is to be joined by access point, normal use connect to network, and even my fondest wish, USB/ethernet. And a release date. Wow.

http://forum.qscservice.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4489&p=17855&sid=fb0827ba6b3efb07f86b843670da7493#p17855
Title: Re: The mackie DL1608 white noise saga continued..
Post by: Rdmitch on November 22, 2014, 11:58:42 AM
I've had one car out of three brand new North American built cars with no problems straight off the show room floor.  Perfection is the exception, not the rule in brand new products.  Mackie should be worlds ahead by making Master Fader 3.0 work for all their ipad centric mixers.  And thanks for the incredible upgrade for our DL1608s.  I fully don't expect things to ever be perfect, and so far I've never been surprised when things aren't perfect.  I am pretty happy when things are functional and generally, my DL1608 experience has been quite functional.  It was a good purchase for me.  It has become a better one with each Master Fader upgrade.  (Wasn't expecting that.)  My only question is will this mixer carry me through my retirement from this business.  Only time will tell.

My feelings exactly !
got to be pleased that at least Mackie is making the effort to continually upgrade and take ownership of any problems.  The product works.  Like Wynnd said,  just want to get thru the next few years. Might only upgrade 1 more time before I call it done and that's ONLY if more steady work comes in and i feel the need to go to 32 channels.   
with the DL and powered speakers my set up time and back pain has been wonderfully reduced. Wheels on subs and ramps for the van has made life a bit better too.
Ultimately I want to do a permanent install at a nice club, and just show up a few nights a week carrying only an Ipad.