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Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: RoadRanger on November 24, 2014, 05:50:17 PM

Title: Digital Trim
Post by: RoadRanger on November 24, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
What experience with this have folks had so far?

What do all you all think of it being post VU meter?

What about it being boost/cut? The only place I'd probably use the "cut" is the iPad channel, and because it's post-VU it doesn't really "fix" the "perceived" issue of that channel "clipping" when it's really not. Otherwise I can't imagine any particularly good use for "cut"?
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: robbocurry on November 24, 2014, 08:53:22 PM
I'd like it post so I can see it taking "effect".
Easier to keep tabs on things imho
It's caught me out a few times already on mic channels. The channel seems to have a good level, pop off the mute and it's too low. Would be a major bummer in that situation if it was way too loud :-[
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: RoadRanger on November 24, 2014, 09:50:18 PM
I think I would actually like it post on boost but pre on cut (except on the iPad channel x( ) .
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: sam.spoons on November 24, 2014, 11:04:15 PM
Pre-VU for sure..... It's crazy to have a trim control post VU meter, how the hell do you know what levels you have (without shoving it out of the outputs somewhere)?
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: Topsøe on November 24, 2014, 11:18:26 PM
The meter has to be before the trim as it shows the level out of the preamp , it would be nice to have another meter or to be able to switch it after trim but it is essential not to clip the preamp
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: sam.spoons on November 25, 2014, 12:19:21 AM
My X32 only has trim controls on the line inputs, where it is before the channel meter. Effectively it replaces the gain control which would be there on a mic channel. As the mic gains are digitally controlled on the X32 trims are unnecessary on the mic channels. On the DL I'd hope they'd suppliment the non-recallable gains and allow you use the channel meters to see your input levels (maybe bypassing them when a channel is soloed so you can still check the real preamp gains).
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: Robert on November 25, 2014, 02:08:31 AM
Can you Solo the channel and look at the LR output meter for an indication of the trim effect?
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: robbocurry on November 25, 2014, 07:40:54 AM
I'd like it post so I can see it taking "effect".
Easier to keep tabs on things imho
It's caught me out a few times already on mic channels. The channel seems to have a good level, pop off the mute and it's too low. Would be a major bummer in that situation if it was way too loud :-[
Typo, obviously ment pre not post vu (as you probably guessed from my gripe)b ;D
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: sam.spoons on November 25, 2014, 09:23:11 AM
Can you Solo the channel and look at the LR output meter for an indication of the trim effect?

I'd have thought it would be better the other way around but I haven't plucked up the courage to install MF3 yet in case my slow old iPads (2 and 3) become crippled. The iPad 3 is on iOS 6 so will have to make the jump to iOS 8 before I can get MF3.

I use solo to set the gains on my analogue desks and also my X32. That way you get the big main meter instead of the little channel meters showing the preamp level. Of course that's less of an issue on the DL as the channel meters are the same size as the mains.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 25, 2014, 06:16:27 PM
If you can spare an aux then you can monitor the post trim levels without possible DSP processing effects as long as Mackie saw fit to include the trim before the "pre" aux pick-off point. Simple test if you have MF 3 loaded. It's a band-aid solution to real digitally controlled preamps anyways best used with your ears. No fear of clipping using trim the numbers are too small to exceed internal processing limits. Too bad their block diagram isn't current.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: ijpengelly on November 29, 2014, 11:28:52 AM
I think that is why doing it on the dynamics page was quite good as it gave you the pre and post trim (gain) settings. I agree that you definitely need to see the pre-amp setting to make sure it isn't clipping (if this is possible, noting WK's comment above) and in the same token you really need a post trim meter to do the same and provide a reference. Perhaps where the input trim is, it should show you the pre-trim level and the main faders show the post trim? And in the little box where the trim preview is they could show the pre-trim.

Any idea why you would want a trim control on the DL32R when the gain is right there available?
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: dpdan on November 29, 2014, 12:14:27 PM

Any idea why you would want a trim control on the DL32R when the gain is right there available?

to me, that is the one thing that is really dumb on the 32R, especially if it does not control the real gain.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 29, 2014, 08:41:41 PM

Any idea why you would want a trim control on the DL32R when the gain is right there available?

to me, that is the one thing that is really dumb on the 32R, especially if it does not control the real gain.
On the Dl32r you have two input sources (preamp and something else USB,Dante) had the trim been on B but not both (A and B) it would have made sense. The I/O patch or limited matrix switch is another prize piece of work including the ridiculous example (Evil engineer ::) ) for it's use. Haven't spend much time on the manual but the DL1608/806 should have been separated out from the DL32R. Another cheapskate move from Mackie.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: sam.spoons on November 29, 2014, 08:52:13 PM
OTOH, it maybe that using one app to control both families of desks is a great idea as it doesn't spread the development team as thin, it will be easier to transfer from one to the other for the engineer in the field and (as you suggest WK) it'll be cheaper so more frequent updates will be possible (and, maybe, a longer shelf life for the old DL1608)....
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 29, 2014, 09:14:41 PM
OTOH, it maybe that using one app to control both families of desks is a great idea as it doesn't spread the development team as thin, it will be easier to transfer from one to the other for the engineer in the field and (as you suggest WK) it'll be cheaper so more frequent updates will be possible (and, maybe, a longer shelf life for the old DL1608)....
It's a common practice these days unfortunately, but you pay the price. Confusion on the users part in a hurry not paying attention etc. A good tech-writer could knock that out in less than a day with the tools today. I used Pagemaker in the Windows 3.1 days as a editor of a tech newsletter. I'm certain it's improved since then. The common app (I'm not sure it really is that) may be the reason for some of the slow response.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: RoadRanger on November 29, 2014, 10:05:41 PM
Interesting that Behringer decided to go with a different app for their new X-Air mixers...
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: Wynnd on November 30, 2014, 01:23:41 AM
Being married to a software database programmer, and having met studying Computer Science, I'm all for anything that makes maintenance and upgrading easier.  One software for all their digital/wifi mixers is one way to raise the level of software expertise on the product.  (Without hiring a large programming squad.)  They will always be working on the two software products.  (Master and My fader apps.)  They are probably putting most of their time into My Fader right now.  When that's done, I would expect them to go back to Master Fader for it's first update.  The bugs aren't big and the functionality of Master Fader is very good.  Wouldn't expect any additional features on that update.  (And with us still getting used to new interface, new features aren't necessary.)   

I wouldn't be against paying for the next upgrade.  (Wouldn't have minded paying for this upgrade.  We got a lot.) Just one thing to think about.  If we were to pay for upgrades, the incentive to do them would go up and the value of our DL1608 would continue to climb.  As long as this is only a cost for Mackie, they will eventually want to drop it.  (Hopefully not for at least 5 years.)  On the other hand as long as all their new digital mixers are tied to ipads and Master Fader, this could go on for a very long time. 
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 30, 2014, 03:45:49 AM
Being married to a software database programmer, and having met studying Computer Science, I'm all for anything that makes maintenance and upgrading easier.  One software for all their digital/wifi mixers is one way to raise the level of software expertise on the product.  (Without hiring a large programming squad.)  They will always be working on the two software products.  (Master and My fader apps.)  They are probably putting most of their time into My Fader right now.  When that's done, I would expect them to go back to Master Fader for it's first update.  The bugs aren't big and the functionality of Master Fader is very good.  Wouldn't expect any additional features on that update.  (And with us still getting used to new interface, new features aren't necessary.)   

I wouldn't be against paying for the next upgrade.  (Wouldn't have minded paying for this upgrade.  We got a lot.) Just one thing to think about.  If we were to pay for upgrades, the incentive to do them would go up and the value of our DL1608 would continue to climb.  As long as this is only a cost for Mackie, they will eventually want to drop it.  (Hopefully not for at least 5 years.)  On the other hand as long as all their new digital mixers are tied to ipads and Master Fader, this could go on for a very long time.
Hey Wynnd did you loose sight of the fact that you're the customer?? Mackie has to keep up with the competition  unless you're a Mackie Fan boy they will loose your business. They've certainly lost mine.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 30, 2014, 05:00:03 AM
Interesting that Behringer decided to go with a different app for their new X-Air mixers...
Different product different market makes a lot of sense. Just look at Mackies MF app 4+ gig on you iPad none of the competitors with more capabilities come even close to that footprint on the iPad. Why because Mackie also includes the DL software on the iPad. What's the point? Download to the DL and don't waste the space in the iPad. The word "Bloatware" comes to mind.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: TimmyP1955 on November 30, 2014, 08:45:15 AM
One of my regulars has an LS9.  I find myself using the digital trim from time to time, as it does not affect the monitor mixes as would the preamp gain.  Whether this is the case on other consoles I do not know.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: ijpengelly on November 30, 2014, 09:12:31 AM
Interesting that Behringer decided to go with a different app for their new X-Air mixers...
Different product different market makes a lot of sense. Just look at Mackies MF app 4+ gig on you iPad none of the competitors with more capabilities come even close to that footprint on the iPad. Why because Mackie also includes the DL software on the iPad. What's the point? Download to the DL and don't waste the space in the iPad. The word "Bloatware" comes to mind.

I'm not sure where you have got 4+GB from WK, according to the storage monitor on my iPad the Mackie has a smaller footprint than the Behringer X-32 Mix, though larger than X-Air (but that misses a lot of functionality) at 82.6MB... not that shabby in this day and age.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: robbocurry on November 30, 2014, 09:42:19 AM
Interesting that Behringer decided to go with a different app for their new X-Air mixers...
Different product different market makes a lot of sense. Just look at Mackies MF app 4+ gig on you iPad none of the competitors with more capabilities come even close to that footprint on the iPad. Why because Mackie also includes the DL software on the iPad. What's the point? Download to the DL and don't waste the space in the iPad. The word "Bloatware" comes to mind.

I'm not sure where you have got 4+GB from WK, according to the storage monitor on my iPad the Mackie has a smaller footprint than the Behringer X-32 Mix, though larger than X-Air (but that misses a lot of functionality) at 82.6MB... not that shabby in this day and age.
Same on my iPads too! Less than 100mb.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: nottooloud on November 30, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Interesting that Behringer decided to go with a different app for their new X-Air mixers...

Looks to me like there's a lot of functionality missing. I'd guess they don't want to scavenge from their own userbase, so these otherwise brilliantly designed little mixers will be severely feature limited.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: Wynnd on November 30, 2014, 04:17:35 PM
haven't forgotten that I'm a customer too.  Used to have a saying.  Alpha software didn't work and Beta software meant it still didn't work.  MF 3.0 is working way better than either of those.  (And better than some Microsoft final releases.)  So, I don't care what you call it, it seems like a final release to me.  Now from all the complaints, and they have been generally for very small issues, some tweaking of the modern EQ should be called for.  (As long as improving that doesn't cause more serious problems.)  Personally, I don't use the vintage mode and wouldn't miss it if it vanished.  Might be a good use of a poll to find out what percentage would be affected if it were dropped.  (Maybe it takes up a minuscule portion of software and it seems to work just fine.) 
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 30, 2014, 04:40:50 PM
Interesting that Behringer decided to go with a different app for their new X-Air mixers...
Different product different market makes a lot of sense. Just look at Mackies MF app 4+ gig on you iPad none of the competitors with more capabilities come even close to that footprint on the iPad. Why because Mackie also includes the DL software on the iPad. What's the point? Download to the DL and don't waste the space in the iPad. The word "Bloatware" comes to mind.

I'm not sure where you have got 4+GB from WK, according to the storage monitor on my iPad the Mackie has a smaller footprint than the Behringer X-32 Mix, though larger than X-Air (but that misses a lot of functionality) at 82.6MB... not that shabby in this day and age.
Same place with a value of 4.1GB and the detail lists 4GB as Documents and Data. That leaves 100MB as the run-time code. Claims App size of 72.0MB. This is under iOS 7.1.2 and MF 2.1.1. The manual is about 41.5MB as a PDF file, that still leaves a lot for what? Set-aside storage for snapshots and shows?Also listed is iOS8.1.1 at 2.9 GB even though it's not installed.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: robbocurry on November 30, 2014, 06:24:55 PM
Wouldn't have fitted on my iPad if it took more than 500mb. Quite a disparity in size there. Interesting.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 30, 2014, 07:02:10 PM
Found the reason for the large size. I had download upgrade enabled but do not install. But 4 GB as a install size!
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: ijpengelly on November 30, 2014, 07:17:24 PM
Something sounds a bit odd there. Have you got a load of recordings associated with it?

The download file is 69MB according to iTunes and two of us seem to have similar sized installs. There are not a lot of applications that require 4GB of space once installed, short of some games and high-end software like AutoCAD with large libraries.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on November 30, 2014, 09:53:41 PM
Something sounds a bit odd there. Have you got a load of recordings associated with it?

The download file is 69MB according to iTunes and two of us seem to have similar sized installs. There are not a lot of applications that require 4GB of space once installed, short of some games and high-end software like AutoCAD with large libraries.
Don't know what recordings would have to do with an install. The iOS 8.1.1 size is 2.9 GB that apparently will pare down to what is on your screen as ~966 MB. I don't use iTunes for any installs. Remember these two are not installed just downloaded waiting for installation.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: lightguy48 on November 30, 2014, 11:26:15 PM
The recordings are considered part of the app so if you have recordings made with MasterFader it will show those recordings as part of the app size.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on December 01, 2014, 12:36:33 AM
The recordings are considered part of the app so if you have recordings made with MasterFader it will show those recordings as part of the app size.
That would be zero in my case, I don't use record via MF. Mackie certainly does not have your recordings either so you saying that a upgrade download combines with recording data? To bad there is no directory content available.  :) Another Crab Apple feature. ::)
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: ijpengelly on December 01, 2014, 06:29:02 AM
Sorry WK, have I misinterpreted you post. Are you referring to the IOS update, not MF update as being best part of 4GB?
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on December 01, 2014, 08:57:19 AM
Sorry WK, have I misinterpreted you post. Are you referring to the IOS update, not MF update as being best part of 4GB?
Hmm I thought it was clear MF 3.0 was downloaded but not installed with a total size of 4.1 GB. This no doubt represents iPad code as well as DL code. It also includes MF 2.1.1 code and data. All iOS apps are sand-boxed into their own directory structure. I'm assuming the usage represent all of the apps directories. This of course will be reduced once the update is installed.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: ijpengelly on December 02, 2014, 06:39:26 AM
It was clear it was downloaded, but not installed, however, I was not aware that it bundled the previous version(s) in as well in the size calc. Still, it seems a massively overinflated value for the size of the installed app and the downloaded file.... would be interesting to see if anyone else has corroborating data, which might point to some kind of glitch.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: nottooloud on December 02, 2014, 01:39:05 PM
Hmm I thought it was clear MF 3.0 was downloaded but not installed with a total size of 4.1 GB.

I'm looking at MasterFader 3.0.ipa in the Mobile Applications directory on my computer, and it's 69 MB. I also keep 1.4.1 handy as the last one that never drops sync. It's 72.6 MB, so MasterFader has actually gotten smaller.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: WK154 on December 03, 2014, 09:54:46 PM
It was clear it was downloaded, but not installed, however, I was not aware that it bundled the previous version(s) in as well in the size calc. Still, it seems a massively overinflated value for the size of the installed app and the downloaded file.... would be interesting to see if anyone else has corroborating data, which might point to some kind of glitch.
Well when all fails use a tool for the job. iPad File Explorer (PC and Mac) an instant solution well worth the $14.95 (demo available). A 4 GB Wav file from the distant past 2012 was the culprit. There are no MF3.0 files that I could find so it must be a link to their Apps store only. Looks like about 1000 files that make up MF. We also know from Metacom that the DL is using about 3.8 MB and most of that is buffers lots of buffers to hold all the bus info. Sorry for the scare.
Title: Re: Digital Trim
Post by: ijpengelly on December 03, 2014, 10:12:42 PM
Tis all good, its not like you were suggesting the case was made of asbestos and we were all going to die in a week...  :lol: Still, nice to get to the bottom of the discrepancy.  :thu: