Cacophony Forums
Unofficial Mackie User Forums => DL1608/DL806/DL32R/ProDX Mixers => Topic started by: takis on January 02, 2015, 06:40:06 PM
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Happy New Year to everyone, first off.
I bit the bullet to use the new system for a larger new year's eve gig this past week... ~300 poeple...
I did play around the software in my basement for about 2-3 weeks using only 2 speakers to test things out... So, the new year's gig set of 6 speaker setup (each speaker is a JBL 2-way with 15" and tweeter), thus the overall volume and mixing with the entire system was not really ever tested.
My band is a 4 piece band where the keyboardist plays left hand bass with right hand leads, drums, guitar, and bouzouki (greek lead guitar insturment). Thus, we are not your typical 'American' band mix.. (www.thestigmaband.com - live music is there for you to understand the style of music)
So here is the pros an cons (only one) itemized in no specific order:
1a) Overall, the sound was much, much tighter - the drums where the best I ever heard them sound - this of course was due to the gate+compresors per channel for each drum.
1b) Clarity of each channel was much cleaner - likewise the EQ settings are very sensitive - I have always used Mackie since their arrival in early 90's - I was using the Onyx 16-channel before the transition. Thus, I am comparing the EQ with the previous mackie boards.. overall an improvement
2a) The setup was so much easier... Every individual person in the band plugs into their own channels (thus, I did not have to do this as I have done before)... Only had to hookup speaker cables... no other peripheral splitter cables, etc.
2b) The breakdown was even quicker...
3) The EQ settings and compresor/gate settings of the Output Matrices I had setup are very, very importaqnt... The only way I truly was able to tweak them correctly was while we were playing at a louder volume - of course, this will change the mix of everything including vocals - make sure you are ready for this your first few gigs.
4) Vocal mics sounded the clearist I ever heard them sound.. which is very importatn in Greek music... in other words, the vocals are always much louder in volume than the overall mix. Even at the louder volumes we played at, there was no feedback - but I use QSC larger 700-800Watts per speaker (8 ohms), thus have much headroom.
5) The delay efffects are pretty good (used more of this effect since the reverbs were terrrible).
The ONLY negative, and for me, it is a big one, all the reverbs sounded like crap... Now, I tried EQing them, but overall, I did not find one that sounded like my Lexicons that I used in my previous setup.
So, if any one has any advice, these are the next steps that I need to try:
1) Try tweaking the reverb again with the EQ at the next gig, realease, decay, ect. at the next gig.. because in the basement, it sounded OK, but again, the volume was not that loud.
2) See if I can use an external software plugin into the Fader software of a 3rd party reverb I like
3) Wait until Mackie comes out with better reverbs (even if I have to pay a little extra) - I truly think the reverbs do not have long enough digital filters to get the better reverb sounds in their plugins (but this is too technical for this discussion)
4) Or figure out how to hookup the actual hardware Lexicon into the system and loop those effects in - of course, would rather not do this....
Overall, the gig went very well considering the first time using this type of system... Did not start drinking until after 12am due to this reason... By the way, it is important to mention, that I am the keyboard player, thus, I was doing the mixing and figuring out while we were playing... The good thing is that I had the 2-3 view setups ready, thus making it easy for me to toggle back and forht between views...
So, for those who will be trying this system for the first time, make sure you pay attention to the setup of each channel's compresor.gate setings.. even more important, the output comp/gate settings... you will have to adjust this throughout the the night until you reach your system's loudest volumen and may have to retweak again.. but then it may alter your overall sound of other instruments, especially the drums and/or bass to get louder/punchier, where again, you have to go back to the channel compr/gate for each and adjust.
Finally, the reverb effects are very bad... unless someone corrects me and/or tells me the best way to tweak them.
Good luck to everyone with the DL32R and again Happy New Year to everyone.
Taki
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There's a FAQ here about the reverbs - but yah, they aren't near as good as a Lexicon or most any other unit I've heard. 'Usable" at best. OTOH the first reviewer of the DL32R documented hooking up an external FX unit - did you miss that?
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=197.0
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Actually, I read that topic after I wrote mine. Actually, I feel good that I am not the only one that feels this way about the reverb..
But hooking up external hardware defeats the purpose of why I switched to this system... this will be my last resort...
I truly am hoping that Mackie will include some better reverbs. I understand with the better reverbs more processing power is needed from your iPad, but I have the newest one and for those who use older iPads, if there is a lag, can simply not use it...
It would be nice if I get a response from someone at Mackie addressing this issue, if it happens to be an issue with others.
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Sorry, just saw the link, and this was not the topic I read... Yes, I did not do it the correct way as he stated... OK, let's see if this works next time, and if it does, I am thouroughly content with this system.
Thanks
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I understand with the better reverbs more processing power is needed from your iPad
Absolutely not - the reverb is done in the mixer, not the iPad. Just shut off your iPad to prove this to yourself if needed ;) .
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Also curious why you bought a DL32R vs a DL1608 for a 4 piece band ?
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Drums take up 6 mics... keyboards with sequencer etc... could take up to 6 inputs... 3 vocals in the band.... guitar and bouzouki - 2 more inputs.. and our DJ system.... another 2 inputs.... I realize this adds to more than 16 inputs.... plus, we backup other musicans and singers from Greece that can lead up to 20-24 channels, where in the past I had to bring 2 mixers whcih is very cloogy...
But overall, I have been monitoring this way to go for the past 2 yeasrs and did not want ot buy things when somewhat proven in technology.. from throughput, things not crapping out.. like software locking, etc.
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The only good thing for me about the reverb is that i have learned a lot about using delays instead.... it really is very poor. Surprising Mackie can't do any better, my ancient SPX90 sounds far better. I've got lexicons and a TC but the whole point of going over to the DL was not taking so much stuff to gigs and as it sits on the stage I can't tweak the settings on outboard so no solution. So lets hope 3.1 not only works without so much lag but also that it has some better reverbs.
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Giasou Takis, Yiorgos Karras here from Dayton. Ive been using the 1608 now for a couple of years with excellent results, although the reverbs aren't the greatest, the delays are usable. I keep an ipod touch velcro'ed right on my bouzouki which makes life so much easier to make level adjustments on the fly out in the crowd. Good luck with the dl32r. It looks like a great unit. Na'se kala kai xronia pola.
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So, for those who will be trying this system for the first time, make sure you pay attention to the setup of each channel's compresor.gate setings.. even more important, the output comp/gate settings...
slightly off-topic, but i don't see where you'd ever want to gate an output, and personally i don't see many reasons to compress an output either, outside of setting up hard limiting that should ideally never kick in, like for IEMs or speaker protection.
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I've hooked up a outboard behringer FX processor to the 1608 and mixed the wet signal back in on one available channel.
It works but was more of a pain in the neck than in was worth. I now just make do
with the built in processor and tweek the presets. At least with the new software you can save these for future recall.
Glad to see another northern Ohio person here on the forum.
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takis,
I feel your pain and completely agree about the reverb quality.
Please watch the video I put on youtube that shows exactly how I use an external reverb unit.
It is in the back of the rack and always patched in and out and I never even think of it being there.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=787.0
Dan
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First off George.. Kalh Xronia! - Happy New Year....
Second... You are correct about the no Gating for the output AUX channels where the mix is going to speakers... All I was trying to state is that the default case, from what I recall, needing some tweaking.. maybe not the Gate, but the Compressor, for sure.
Third, I reviewed your vidoe for installation of an external unit... Thanks for taking the time btw... But I still have a few questions... I see how you use an actual channel for input and the 1 AUX for return. But, how do you hookup things in software to use the reverb across all channels, like an Aux channel... This you did not show... Or are you using teh effects unit for just one channel. Thanks
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Hi takis,
I much prefer my old $4,800.00 Lexicon 200 "reverberator" too but the TC is good enough. I use the TC because I got it for nothing from a friend and second, because it can provide two different effects simultaneously.
I use aux 9 for the send to the first processor and aux 10 for the second. I set both reverbs so that they were to my liking and saved the preset. I set the first processor (aux 9) for a normal reverb with a medium size room and reasonably short reverb time. The second processor input gets aux 10. The second reverb is a much larger room with longer reverb tail for ballads. The reverb has left and right outputs and both effects are present on this common stereo output which feeds channels 31 & 32. I link channels 31 & 32 and leave them turned up for the entire show. I use a mute group for aux 9 and another one for aux 10,.... aux 9 is labeled verb (lower case letters) and aux 10 labeled VERB (upper case letters) This keeps the name short. When I want normal reverb I mute aux 10, when I prefer a much larger reverb, I mute aux 9 and unmute aux 10. I never need to mess with the reverb and it just sits in the rack as if it wasn't there. Works great.
(http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/mute_group.PNG)
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Thanks for the better explanation... But from what I understand with the way you are doing it, is that you cannot adjust the amount of reverb per channel, per vocalist.. in other words, the same amount o reverb would be used for each cahnnel using that reverb. That will not work for me at all, because each vocalist uses a differnet amount of reverb.
Am I understanding this correctly?
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How would you have done this on an analogue desk? I'm not using MF3 or a DL32R but still on MF2 with my DL1608 but I'd be surprised if it wasn't possible. I will try to set the DL up in the studio tomorrow and give it a go, I'm sure if I can make it work on my 1608 it will be possible on the 32R/MF3 setup.
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The DL32R is totally new to me. I still am reading the manual, over and over....
But to answer your question... With my previous Mackie ONYX board, I would hookup the Lexicon to one of the 1 through 6 AUX busses (say 2)... and then Per each channel I would adjust the amount of reverb with the channel's Aux knob per channel. Hopefully, this makes sense.
Thanks
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So, for those who will be trying this system for the first time, make sure you pay attention to the setup of each channel's compresor.gate setings.. even more important, the output comp/gate settings...
slightly off-topic, but i don't see where you'd ever want to gate an output, and personally i don't see many reasons to compress an output either, outside of setting up hard limiting that should ideally never kick in, like for IEMs or speaker protection.
Hey Walter,
Years ago when desks and outboard gear were aplenty, I'd have gates on my LR last thing before the crossover just to kill off any bits and pieces of low level noise that had accumulated.......
In fairness, not much coming from my DL in the hum department, especially if used channels were muted.
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The DL32R is totally new to me. I still am reading the manual, over and over....
But to answer your question... With my previous Mackie ONYX board, I would hookup the Lexicon to one of the 1 through 6 AUX busses (say 2)... and then Per each channel I would adjust the amount of reverb with the channel's Aux knob per channel. Hopefully, this makes sense.
Thanks
I've been using the DL for a couple of years now, I'll try to work it out, I'm sure it must be possible.
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The DL32R is totally new to me. I still am reading the manual, over and over....
But to answer your question... With my previous Mackie ONYX board, I would hookup the Lexicon to one of the 1 through 6 AUX busses (say 2)... and then Per each channel I would adjust the amount of reverb with the channel's Aux knob per channel. Hopefully, this makes sense.
Thanks
The aux outs on the DL mixers work just like the aux outs on your old ONYX board -- they're just presented a little differently on the mixer app. So, if you connect the output of one of your auxes (say 2) to the input of your reverb, and connect the output to an input on the DL (say 32), and route that input to the LR main out. It will then function as your "return." Don't forget to set the aux send to be "post fader."
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If you want more reverb on one vocalist or instrument I would think you could simply go to the aux 9 (or 10)
Output and increase that particular channels send to the aux out. Just like if you were sending more of a channel to a monitor send.
I think the reverb signal coming back to the mixer going into channel 31 is just a "wet" signal and by raising that fader in the main mix you can add the reverb amount to your liking.
At least that is how I do it using my outboard FX processor when I feel like adding more work to my day.
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takis, thanks for your review. I just got my DL32R last week, and haven't used it in a live gig yet. I'm excited to do so. :)
As for reverb, I tend to use it very little, if at all. Do you use a lot? Do you use it only on vocals, or do you add it to the snare drum as well?
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All a matter of your artistic mind and the desires of the people you are working for.
Sound techs have to use the FOH as their canvas a little. Add only FX that add positive things to the music.
I have seen shows that the reverb or delay were so overkill that the mix sounded like mush.
One group I spent the last 3 years with the lead singer wanted a lot of verb.....a real lot !
While not my taste, it's his band, his sound and my job to make it happen.
On the other hand every other band member gave me free reign on doing what I felt enhanced the mix.
And yes, that meant some verb on snare if the song called for it. Some tunes got heavy reverb and delay on toms too, but just for the needed part, then back to normal. Never on kick as it takes out the punch
Experiment in small increments.
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takis,... you are not understanding my posts.
I use two aux sends....
one of them for regular reverb and a second one for larger reverb.
You still need to dial in how much reverb of the various channels that you want, just like you do with any console where a post fade aux send is used to feed a reverb.
I set sends (in my case 9 & 10) with both 9 and 10 turned up for inputs that I want to have reverb. This always feeds a dry signal to both reverbs, but keep in mind, one of the reverb send masters is muted depending on the reverb type I want at any given moment.
I did not mention that the dry/wet knob on the reverb needs to be full wet.
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Thanks for everyone's assistance... I redid the rack to include the Lexicon external hardware unit. I hooked it up per the direction of everyone. Actually, it is the same way as I hooked up with my Onyx... Did not realize it was that simple... Now I have a good reverb... Unfortunatley, at the cost of using one AUX and one input, whcih is OK since there a few to spare on both sides....
Something that I noticed, for now, is that the AUX main output volume does not go to unity when the slide is all the way up... could be the balanced cable I am using...
Other than that everything seems to be working... Will play around a little more.. But again, I really did not want to do this, since the software on the Ipad or the DL32R hardware should easily take care of this.
Just to recap Mono setup:
1) Hookup Lexicon mono input to AUX1 0- 1/4" to XLR female
2) Hookup Channel Input, say 30, to Lexicon mono/left output
3) Go to AUX 1 - place fader to unity - place channel to post fader
4) Go to channel input 30 - turn gain up and then fader to the point the hiss is no that loud
5) THen go to the microphone input, and on AUX 1 slider, place as much reverb you need.
Thanks for everyone's assistance, and I hope Mackie/LOUD improves the reverbs in the near future.
Taki
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I think you nailed it !!
We all hope they improve the FX's in the near future.
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Takis your quote "Something that I noticed, for now, is that the AUX main output volume does not go to unity when the slide is all the way up... could be the balanced cable I am using..." can't be due to a cable. The aux out depends on the collection of dry signals on the aux bus. You have level control over all input channels that are routed to the aux bus. The DL XLR to LEX 1/4" should be a TRS, all balanced but it would only affect the level into the LEX if it were unbalance TS by 6 dB.
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Takis,
since you have 32 inputs, you should connect both the left and right outputs of the Lexicon and pan them hard left and right (stereo)
unless your mains are mono.
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Used the systme with the external Lexicaon this past weekend. Worked very well.. Only thing noticed is that there was a small high hiss coming through the system because I had to palce the channel gains high enough for the reverb to take full affect. Not that big of a deal... Tried to work in a Gate, but it affected the tail fo the reverb...
Overall happy for now.
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Hi takis,
many digital reverbs have noisey outputs so you need to radically lower the "gain" trim on the rever returns and raise the input to to reverb to near clipping. That will give you clean results.
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Sounds more like an unbalanced cable in the mix somewhere. The DL's don't like unbalanced.
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Sounds more like an unbalanced cable in the mix somewhere. The DL's don't like unbalanced.
Are you 100% sure this applies to the DL32 since it has an internal PSU?
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The issue with the 1608 was to do with the impedance balanced aux outs rather than the PSU as such. The DL32 has a 3 pin mains connector with a safety earth where the 1608 has a two pin mains lead with no safety earth, not sure how that will affect things though.
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The issue with the 1608 was to do with the impedance balanced aux outs rather than the PSU as such. The DL32 has a 3 pin mains connector with a safety earth where the 1608 has a two pin mains lead with no safety earth, not sure how that will affect things though.
US version has a three wire IEC power cord w/ground - yous guys don't?
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Yes, I am using balanced cables for everything... I will try to fiddle around by lowering the output AUX1 volume and playing with the gain/trim on the input returns, to get rid of the hiss... Will check in sometime early next week with my analysis. Thanks for everyone's input again...
Did another small club gig this past weekend with just 3 speakers, no micing of the drums either... everythign was very clean... barely needed to do any tweaking of anything... again quick etup and breakdown and less equipment and wiring... so far so good.
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The issue with the 1608 was to do with the impedance balanced aux outs rather than the PSU as such. The DL32 has a 3 pin mains connector with a safety earth where the 1608 has a two pin mains lead with no safety earth, not sure how that will affect things though.
US version has a three wire IEC power cord w/ground - yous guys don't?
3 pin in France too.
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The UK version of the DL1608 PSU has a 'figure 8', I believe the DL32R is a standard 'kettle lead' euro 3 pin connector.
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The issue with the 1608 was to do with the impedance balanced aux outs rather than the PSU as such. The DL32 has a 3 pin mains connector with a safety earth where the 1608 has a two pin mains lead with no safety earth, not sure how that will affect things though.
Sam I unfortunately have to disagree with your assessment about the noise source. In my prior pin one evaluation of the DL1608 the problem stemmed from the simple fact that the DL grounding system is at fault. It has nothing to do with impedance balanced or active outputs. It has to do with the simple fact that there are 3 ground planes that must be carefully controlled in the mixer. These are the chassis ground, analog ground and the digital ground and their interaction and points of connection. The fact that the power supply in the DL1608 is in two physical parts ( a 12V AC to DC external converter and internal DC to DC converters for all required voltages) and the DL32R is one piece is not really relevant. The power supply circuit design certainly is. Next time you have a chance to read the UK issued PWS model # it would be informative since the UK has a different approach to AC than the US. For those interested in the various parts of the Worlds systems here is some info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
takis it would also be useful if you stated the model # of the LEX you're using.
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I'm happy to bow to your greater knowledge WK, but without the 'pin one' problem would the other questions not be moot?
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I'm happy to bow to your greater knowledge WK, but without the 'pin one' problem would the other questions not be moot?
Not sure what you mean by other questions? If you saying that the DL32R doesn't have a pin one problem has anyone tested for it? For those of you that may not be aware the output impedance of the DL32R is the antique 600 ohm Telco standard on all analog outputs. The Aux's on the DL1608 are 240 ohms balanced except for L&R at 600 ohms. What does all this mean? The recommended input/output impedance ratio should be 10 or higher to avoid introducing unnecessary noise. That means the LEX should have an input impedance of 6K or higher. I doubt that. Correct that if it's a PCM-90 a popular LEX it has 100K ohms input impedance, no problem there. There is however a consumer/pro switch which needs to be set to pro (0dBu) with the DL otherwise it easy to overdrive the LEX and it explains the low output from the LEX.
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I mean that if the DL series didn't have the 'pin 1' problem the PSU would not be the cause of noise.
Just occurred to me, IIRC the noise issue on the 1608 has only been reported on the auxs (usually when unbalancing using a TS lead), the DL32R has all it's outputs on XLR does that make a difference?
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I mean that if the DL series didn't have the 'pin 1' problem the PSU would not be the cause of noise.
Just occurred to me, IIRC the noise issue on the 1608 has only been reported on the auxs (usually when unbalancing using a TS lead), the DL32R has all it's outputs on XLR does that make a difference?
If there is no pin 1 problem then there should be little noise. The XLR on the DL1608 had the same results in my tests, but most other posters probably had a balanced L&R out in use.
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Yeah, that does make sense. I'd pretty much forgotten about the problem 'till this thread as all my rig is balanced.
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OK.. I took the advice of soemone where I boosted the Aux1 channel to the extreme - all the way to the top... and then lowered the return channels until a slight hiss started through the system - the fader went up about 1/2 way.... then on the say the vocal fader channel, went to aux1 to add the reverb from the Lexicon and palced it up about 1/2 way and got enough reverb that I needed without not allot of hiss... but there was just a little...
For me, the topic is over until I hope Mackie upgrades their reverbs, or a 3rd party vendor has some plugins to install...
Thanks again for everyone's assistance.
Taki