Vocal Harmonizer - 2nd Newbie question

[jpdennis]

I am wanting to use a vocal harmonizer with the DL1608L for all channels (or at least all available channels once I understand the challenges.)

[GOAL]

1) 1U rack mounted Vocal Harmonizer or TC Helicon VoiceLive Play based upon cost.
2) Route from (say) aux 6 to channel 16 and make sure I do not assign channel 16 to aux 6
3) Be able to use the effect 1 to 5 vocal channels as necessary

[QUESTION]

Is this doable or is this a "only one vocal channel can use this FX" situation?  What would the wiring really look like?

Dennis

[dpdan]

Personally, I think the sound that will be produced by any vocal harmonizer is going to be horrible with more than one voice.

[jpdennis]

Personally, I think the sound that will be produced by any vocal harmonizer is going to be horrible with more than one voice.

Very true!

I really want to use the FX for only the song lead vocal though not in every song.  And as a subtle enhancement in mid chorus or lead in; as an example.  Not as a full song overlay.  However, the thing is the lead vocalist will change based upon the song itself.  So the sound man would have to know when to chose the correct saved FX in the unit then apply it subtly only at that "right" moment and only to one of the four lead vocalist.

Just wondering.

Dennis

[EDIT]

Also wondered about this FX either being restricted to only one channel in practical use or bleeding into the other channels for some ungodly reason.  Not really a need, more a "what if" kind of idea

[dpdan]

you would not need to route channel 6 to 16, no need for that.
Just feed aux 6 output to the harmonizer's input,
then connect the output of the harmonizer to an available input let's say channel 16.
Make sure to not ever send channel 16 to aux 6.

You are correct about someone (soundman) making these mix changes appropriately and at the correct times.
 

[ToH2002]

Just a general remark/suggestion on the use of harmony processors on vocals:  In my band, we use these devices routinely and extensively. We are two lead singers; usually, one of us singing backing vocals while the other sings lead. The backing vocalist then uses a VoiceLive Touch to "thicken" backing vocals. If used for backing vocals, these devices can create a good and powerful vocal backdrop, without sounding overly artificial.

In our experience, this leads to vocalists "playing" their voice processors like an instrument; switching presets per song or song sections, using footswitches to turn them on or off for sections of a chorus, etc. It takes some time to learn this instrument, but it is definitely worth it.

Given this, I don't recommend putting a voice processor with the mix tech (especially when working with different techs in different locations) - better to have the singers operate these devices themselves and learn how to "play" this instrument.

My other question would be: if you have four vocalists, why use a harmony processor? Much better to have "real" harmony :-) We only use these devices because there are only two of us, which is a bit thin for a true backing vocals section.

Just my 0.02 EUR...

Cheers,

Torsten

[stevegarris]

Just a general remark/suggestion on the use of harmony processors on vocals:  In my band, we use these devices routinely and extensively. We are two lead singers; usually, one of us singing backing vocals while the other sings lead. The backing vocalist then uses a VoiceLive Touch to "thicken" backing vocals. If used for backing vocals, these devices can create a good and powerful vocal backdrop, without sounding overly artificial.

In our experience, this leads to vocalists "playing" their voice processors like an instrument; switching presets per song or song sections, using footswitches to turn them on or off for sections of a chorus, etc. It takes some time to learn this instrument, but it is definitely worth it.

Given this, I don't recommend putting a voice processor with the mix tech (especially when working with different techs in different locations) - better to have the singers operate these devices themselves and learn how to "play" this instrument.

My other question would be: if you have four vocalists, why use a harmony processor? Much better to have "real" harmony :-) We only use these devices because there are only two of us, which is a bit thin for a true backing vocals section.

Just my 0.02 EUR...

Cheers,

Torsten

This is exactly my experience as well. My band uses the TC Helicon VoiceLive Play, which sounds very good if not over-used. The musicians work the pedal which passes through their vocal mic's and is heard in both mains & monitors (IEM's). The only processing I do is to add delay or reverb.

[workingstiff]

Our band uses TC H1 to sweeten our harmonies. I'll echo other comments and say it can be a beneficial addition to your live sound but it can sound absolutely obvious (not in a good way) without some restraint. I use my guitar to control the harmonies but my lead singer's vocal is routed through the device. I run it only on her mic then straight in to her channel on the mixer. I've tried using it in a loop but eventually decided the extra hassle wasn't worth it. I set the mix so that the artificial harmony is just barely in the mix then I kick it on and off *a lot*, in short bursts it remains believable. It sounds great when used to add a third harmony line to our live two part harmonies.

[nedorama]

Unless you're using a rack mount processor for thickening or simple harmonies (unison, octave, 5th), you'll have problems with a melodic 3rd, either major or minor. We use the TC Harmony G-XT to add a 3rd harmony to mine and one other singer, and usually the mix is set around 1/3, so that you barely hear it but adds to the mix without being overbearing. The G-XT has a guitar thru so it can figure out the major/minor third based on the chords of the song, which makes a big difference. I've also got footswitch control, so that I can turn it on and off when needed - it's a lot easier for me to know when I want that harmonic third vs. an engineer, unless the engineer is always with the band and knows the songs by heart - and isn't doing the normal combat audio tweaking other parts of the mix, feedback, etc.

I'd keep it simple, and have the musicians control when it's being used, and adjust the mix ahead of time to use sparingly.

[ToH2002]

Unless you're using a rack mount processor for thickening or simple harmonies (unison, octave, 5th), you'll have problems with a melodic 3rd, either major or minor.

yup - you need to feed these beasts with the correct chords, either via MIDI from your friendly keyboard wizard or split a (clean!) guitar signal from somewhere in the guitarist's signal chain (I usually pull it from the pedalboard before any crunch gets applied). Some of these processors can also deal with a full mix, but that's pretty error-prone...

In my band, I supply MIDI or guitar signals (I change between keyboards and guitars) for all VoiceLives involved - the responsibility weighs heavily on my shoulders - when I mess up a chord, vocals sound horrible...

Cheers,

Torsten

[nedorama]

Personally, I think the sound that will be produced by any vocal harmonizer is going to be horrible with more than one voice.

Very true!

I really want to use the FX for only the song lead vocal though not in every song.  And as a subtle enhancement in mid chorus or lead in; as an example.  Not as a full song overlay.  However, the thing is the lead vocalist will change based upon the song itself.  So the sound man would have to know when to chose the correct saved FX in the unit then apply it subtly only at that "right" moment and only to one of the four lead vocalist.

Just wondering.

Dennis

[EDIT]

Also wondered about this FX either being restricted to only one channel in practical use or bleeding into the other channels for some ungodly reason.  Not really a need, more a "what if" kind of idea

Dennis - just to add on here to your post:

Asking the sound guy to add effects at different points of the song is always tough unless he or she is a dedicated part of your band and knows the material inside and out. For most bar band mixers, there are many other things fighting for their attention.

Harmonizers don't work well with a lot of extraneous noise, so if you're trying to use the unit for 1 of 4 different vocalists, that would require the aux sends from the 3 that aren't the lead vocal to be muted - which again is a lot of work for the mixer while doing other things. This means that the chances of the mixer getting the part of the song right and the right singer are for all intensive purposes never going to happen. If you get a soundcheck, it's to make sure that the overall FOH and monitor mixes are working - you won't ever be able to go over intricate song notes like "harmony vocal on for bridge on Mic 2." Just my experience, both in bar gigs and where we were the main attraction.

If it's a subtle enhancement, I wouldn't bother. If it's a harmony, with 4 vocalists in the band they should be able to harmonize some parts and again wouldn't bother. If you want to use it in addition to the internal echo/reverb as an effect send with just a thickening effect, you may be fine without it.

Or just do it old school - have two of the singers sing unison to double it up on certain parts. A little goes a long way.