Author Topic: Compression onstage monitors  (Read 628 times)

slystewart

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Compression onstage monitors
« on: May 14, 2017, 04:05:42 PM »
I'm using a DL32R and as the bass player for the last few months had to work the mix from stage  and learning as I go along not my choice but  doing ok so far.  . band member asked about compression on stage monitors as this band has two front men ....im not sure about this  any help on this  Thanks

shufflebeat

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2017, 09:03:44 PM »
The problems with compression in the monitors are (in musicians' terms):

1 - takes some of the cut from the monitors, encouraging greater volume to compensate, inviting feedback.
2 - takes some of the dynamic edge off a performance, encouraging harder playing than necessary.
3 - makes everything disappear into everything else.

Some of these might be artistically pleasing but it takes restraint and understanding to stay on the right side of subtle. Better to EQ well and control your own dynamics by performance technique.

Compression/limiting can be useful to protect speakers by fine tuning gain structure but is not a substitute for good planning.

nedorama

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2017, 01:09:47 AM »
No compression for me on monitors - otherwise how do you know if you're too loud, especially with 2 front men? They need to learn to blend and the only way to really do that effectively is to control dynamics the old school way - singing softer, backing off the mic, and hearing what the other person is doing.

I'd work to ensure they can hear their vocals above everything in the mix before adding compression.

what vocal mics and what monitors are you using?
Regards,
Nedorama
DL1608
Mains - QSC HPR122i, KW181
Monitors - Alto SXM112

4mal

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 04:12:23 AM »
Generally it is a great way to have a singer blow their voice out.  Uncompressed, uneffected monitors are the way I roll...

dpdan

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 05:31:54 AM »
shufflebeat,
so well stated!
if it ain't broke fix it till it is

stevegarris

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 04:43:36 PM »
A contrarian view I suppose, but I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH. I typically use compression sparingly, but aggressively if required. My monitor mix is excellent... everyone is always very happy and no singer has "blown his or her vocals" while I was mixing. It is imperative that the same channel EQ correction takes place in the singers mic as the FOH, IMO. YMMV

nedorama

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 04:54:52 PM »
A contrarian view I suppose, but I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH. I typically use compression sparingly, but aggressively if required. My monitor mix is excellent... everyone is always very happy and no singer has "blown his or her vocals" while I was mixing. It is imperative that the same channel EQ correction takes place in the singers mic as the FOH, IMO. YMMV

Great that it works for you, but for most people, compression in the monitors doesn't work as vocalists don't learn dynamics, and if they do, they can't hear a difference in the monitors. It's even more important when you have multiple singers so they can learn to balance their levels. Slapping a compressor on their monitors defeats that purpose. What some will do is have dynamics on the mains and not on monitors, but not on both.

No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.
Regards,
Nedorama
DL1608
Mains - QSC HPR122i, KW181
Monitors - Alto SXM112

dpdan

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 03:51:19 AM »
I practice the same approach as Steve,,, even though I said shufflebeat stated his position clearly.
I too use compression on vocals in mains and monitors and that same "identical" compression as well as EQ goes to their mixes.

More than one way to skin a cat  :)
if it ain't broke fix it till it is

stevegarris

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 05:43:39 PM »


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

nedorama

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 05:54:13 PM »


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

Steve - yes it is, so if you apply channel EQ or dynamics, it does get sent out to mains and monitors. If you mult the signal with an aux send, I believe you should be able to do different EQ or dynamics. Or, just have different dynamics for mains and monitors for all signals. At my level, I run the same EQ for both, but know of many folks who will run main and monitor EQ for a money channel (lead vocalist) on 2 separate channels.

As Joe Meek used to say, if it sounds good, it is good! Great to be able to have this kind of flexibility available in this small of a space.
Regards,
Nedorama
DL1608
Mains - QSC HPR122i, KW181
Monitors - Alto SXM112

shufflebeat

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 07:44:35 PM »


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

That's confused me as well. Surely "pre DSP" is the setting I'm promoting. Signal to monitors is tapped before any processing (comp/EQ).

Have I missed something?

stevegarris

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 08:45:38 PM »


No one's talking about different channel EQ for mains and monitors, although there's no reason you couldn't given they're reproducing sound for two completely different reasons.

OK I could be wrong, but isn't the comp part of the DSP that includes the channel EQ?

If you mult the signal with an aux send, I believe you should be able to do different EQ or dynamics. Or, just have different dynamics for mains and monitors for all signals. At my level, I run the same EQ for both, but know of many folks who will run main and monitor EQ for a money channel (lead vocalist) on 2 separate channels.


I'm not sure what you're saying here: "mult the signal with an aux send". Also, I do not have enough channels to split every vocal channel, nor do I want to take the time to do that.
I still personally believe that my monitor and main mixes are excellent, due to my ability to effectively use the parametric channel EQ and compressors. I receive nothing but complements at every show, to the tune of "best ever" house guy & the like.

nedorama

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2017, 09:10:25 PM »
Steve -

What works for you is great, it may not be how I mix or how others mix. I wasn't commenting on how your mixes sound as I haven't heard them, and at my level, I couldn't really offer much.

Multing the signal is just a way of duplicating a signal on a mixer to perform different EQ, dynamics, etc. for different routing. If you have one money vocal channel it may or may not be worth it, but in your case I'd just stick with what works for you. I'm certainly not recommending changing your workflow.
Regards,
Nedorama
DL1608
Mains - QSC HPR122i, KW181
Monitors - Alto SXM112

Weogo

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2017, 04:21:18 PM »
Hi Steve,

I'm confused.

You wrote," I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH."

A) Compression and EQ are always active on L/R House channels.
B) If you switch a monitor mix to Pre DSP, you have no channel EQ or compression in the monitors, only the monitor master EQ.
C) So how can you have a Pre-DSP monitor mix, and the same compression and EQ in Monitors as FOH?

Years ago a Split to House and Monitor mixers was common, as was a separate monitor tech.
Alternately, XLR-Y cables were often used for splitting some inputs to two channels for mixing monitors from FOH.

Enter, in 2003, the modest-budget Yamaha 01V96 digital mixer, which allowed one analog input to be sent to two or more channels.
Only Gain and Pad were shared on the split channels, allowing for a virtual House mixer and another Monitor mixer on one console.

These days I still do some shows with smaller input counts on a DL1608, and pull out the XLR-Y cables.
Once the gig gets over a few inputs, I switch to the DL32R, which allows one input to be split to two channels.

I work with some vocalists that can sing fairly softly, and then so loud it will take your head off.
Modest compression on the house mix channel keeps the audience happy, no compression in the monitor mix channel keeps the vocalist happy.

Another use for split channels:
I work with a Fiddler who is a State Living Treasure, who does not hear high frequencies very well, and wants them turned up in the monitor.
While at the same time, to make the Fiddle sound good in the house, I am turning the High's down.(Also,
this is the channel that gets sent to other musicians on stage.)


Whenever I do an open mic show, one channel goes to house and monitors  ~  there just isn't time for dealing with separate channels.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo

stevegarris

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Re: Compression onstage monitors
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2017, 05:50:00 PM »
Hi Steve,

I'm confused.

You wrote," I use pre DSP on all channels, having the same compression & EQ in monitors as the FOH."

A) Compression and EQ are always active on L/R House channels.
B) If you switch a monitor mix to Pre DSP, you have no channel EQ or compression in the monitors, only the monitor master EQ.
C) So how can you have a Pre-DSP monitor mix, and the same compression and EQ in Monitors as FOH?

Years ago a Split to House and Monitor mixers was common, as was a separate monitor tech.
Alternately, XLR-Y cables were often used for splitting some inputs to two channels for mixing monitors from FOH.

Enter, in 2003, the modest-budget Yamaha 01V96 digital mixer, which allowed one analog input to be sent to two or more channels.
Only Gain and Pad were shared on the split channels, allowing for a virtual House mixer and another Monitor mixer on one console.

These days I still do some shows with smaller input counts on a DL1608, and pull out the XLR-Y cables.
Once the gig gets over a few inputs, I switch to the DL32R, which allows one input to be split to two channels.

I work with some vocalists that can sing fairly softly, and then so loud it will take your head off.
Modest compression on the house mix channel keeps the audience happy, no compression in the monitor mix channel keeps the vocalist happy.

Another use for split channels:
I work with a Fiddler who is a State Living Treasure, who does not hear high frequencies very well, and wants them turned up in the monitor.
While at the same time, to make the Fiddle sound good in the house, I am turning the High's down.(Also,
this is the channel that gets sent to other musicians on stage.)


Whenever I do an open mic show, one channel goes to house and monitors  ~  there just isn't time for dealing with separate channels.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo

My bad - I said Pre but meant post! Yes, I'm familiar with splitting channels, but so far have not had the need for it. I might try it some day.