Author Topic: A gaggle of Turkeys??  (Read 1826 times)

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
A gaggle of Turkeys??
« on: November 26, 2017, 02:51:03 AM »
Well couldn't leave well enough alone and was going for a Ui24. Well being heavily invested in Behringer I decided otherwise. So my new acquisitions are none other than a M12, M18, and yes a X-Touch. The trial by fire is Dec. 2 Christmas show. The X-Touch won't be part of that. Totally battery powered.
The gear is :
2- JBL LA50 CBT's
XY from 2 ADK SP-1
XY from 2 JM27 Joe Meek
2 wireless Sennheiser E835's
M12 Mixer (in the mail)
Yamaha keyboard etc.
Video Q4n Zoom
A small enough venue of ~ 300 to not require the chorus to be mic'd.
I'll do a comparison (X-Air vs. Mxx)  after the holidays to see if was worth it all.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 04:08:00 AM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 08:49:02 PM »
Well the first Turkey a M12 died after 6 hrs. of AP wireless connection. Yes the Midas died (no WiFi). I'll finally will see what their service is about. The Behringer XR12 did just fine for the show. I needed the stereo playback feature or I would have used the M18. It just needs a lot of extra junk (laptop). Noise was not any problem in a live show. I bought it for use in the studio.
When in doubt KISS

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 05:41:48 AM »
Not so fast here. It seems that the MR12 managed to get into a state where in the AP position the MR12 would not issue a beacon (not visible to other devices). AFAIK there are no options to hide the SSID when the  MR12 is in DHCP (server) mode. Yet I found the beacon gone in AP mode (WiFi analyzer). Solution was a paperclip (reset). I was about to send the unit back but decided to give it one more chance and start with the basics. Lesson learned one more time. There may be some combination of actions that need to be explored that would cause this. After all it's a computer and software.
When in doubt KISS

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2018, 06:42:55 PM »
Well the lesson learned is to follow your instincts. After many moons and a recent attempt to reuse the MR12 I found myself loosing connection again (takes a while (over 24hrs.) or lots of traffic). So I embarked on a more thorough  evaluation. Looks like I will find out what the Midas 10 yr. warranty is all about afterall. The MR12 Beacon looks more like a saw-tooth instead of what all other XR12/18 MR18 are giving (using Nuts-About-Nets Discovery software). No Software involved since there is no consistency between the MR12 and other units. Using Firmware 1.17 and current apps on iPad, Android and PC.  I see no need for packet analysis since the WiFi chip (already obsolete MRF24WG0MB) needs to be replaced at minimum. The unit will survive loss in beacon up to a point and then the only recovery I found was to restart the MR12, not good. Results send it back!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 12:04:46 AM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 10:22:03 PM »
When you think you have figured it all out up shows Murphy (Murphy's Law). Checking with more than one tool regarding Beacon strength I found too many discrepancies. Android's is a different app than the PC and none seem to be in sync. So I will need to haul out the big guns (RF analyzer Signal Hound) and have a look. Wire-Shark will require some additional hardware to deal with Wireless which I don't have yet  :). In any case it still fails and no longer reconnects from any of the control apps until a power cycle. I did notice that the Beacon reappears after switching to any other mode and back to AP so it acts like all 4 devices are in use but no control of MR12 and will not let others in. Stay tuned my Kitchen project has priority  :). Bottom line for now is use a wired connection certainly not the build in garbage. A quality wireless router using 5 GHz is a viable compromise. FYI Apple has discontinued all WiFi routers since April 2017. Get something else if you need one.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 11:44:05 PM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 06:08:26 PM »
A followup on the now reproducible failure on all three Music Tribe products. XR12, MR12, MR18 all fail if given sufficient time of about 48 hrs. If the typical usage is 4-8 hrs you probably won't experience it although on my MR12 it appeared after 6 hrs. This is done with 4 dynamic mics attached and one control surface a iPad 3 no activity other than screen refresh. Same results if a Android tablet is used. Not likely to be a hardware problem unless it is a design flaw in the MRF24WG0MB module. Since MG is using ucLinux a home-brew Real Time OS and possibly not using the Microchip Software complicates matters. Very little is known about the characteristics of the WiFi capabilities other than a bare bones implementation of 802.11 b/g. RSSI (signal power) is typically running 10dBm below any of my WiFi routers (Netgear, Cisco (Linksys), D-Link)). A packet analysis is required to dig deeper. My recent sink or swim test of about ~160 audience (probably about 100 phones of various makes) cut the time to minutes. This however could be just a overload of traffic in the 2.4 GHz band and was corrected by requesting phones to be set to Airplane mode. :) Lucky me since they complied with the request  >:D. MR12 power needed to be cycled for recovery however.
Getting Mackie and the Tribe confused  :eek:
« Last Edit: Today at 04:03:37 AM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

LeeSteel

  • Super Lee
  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: Newington, Connecticut
  • Posts: 111
    • Lee Steel
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 01:10:15 PM »
I have a co-worker who is also running the MR/XR18 and had severe trouble connecting to the onboard wi-fi at an outdoor show where they were very close to a lot of extraneous wireless signal traffic in the vicinity. They were blocked from connecting to the mixer, period. I will retain and use my Apple  Airport Express that I have had in the rack since my DL1608 days. So far, all my testing has been perfect performance. After seeing this message on the Tribe site, I tested my setup by running it overnight.
Plug up one ear and make it mono!

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 10:13:13 PM »
I would expect that. Normally I use a wired connection to a PC to run the X-Air series and wireless for initial setup. I don't need to be concerned about control disappearing on me. The above mentioned test of ~160 was due to my rearranging my setup (missing the external router at the time) when I was asked to do this gig (3 days prior and no time to add router). What better way to test out suspicions about the 2.4 GHz band. I don't have 100 phones. Normally I run the setup by wire but couldn't due to incorrect info about the setup (cables). When I have a chance I will try to use fixed IP as a workaround to see if it makes a difference (typical Black Box test). Normally the stations (iPad etc.) will start roaming processes once the RSSI gets to -65dBm or lower and that could affect connections. There is literally no access to the embedded module settings other than SSID, IP(fixed), mask, Gateway/DNS and channel. Here's hoping that simplification will bypass logic bugs :).
When in doubt KISS

LeeSteel

  • Super Lee
  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: Newington, Connecticut
  • Posts: 111
    • Lee Steel
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 10:36:29 AM »
With the camera kit attached to my iPad, should I be able to achieve a wired connection to the XR18? Because right now I can't seem to make that happen. WiFi is spot on. Also, contrary to what some others have posted, the USB to camera kit is not working to charge my iPad either.
Plug up one ear and make it mono!

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 06:51:28 PM »
First let me say that I wouldn't recommend that route. See the convoluted hookup and parts required for the iPad (only tested with the iPad 3 30 pin). The USB to Ethernet dongle also has to be one that Apple recognizes.
http://cacophony.aspinock.com/index.php?topic=1208.0
Android is much simpler and with current units (nothing cheap and make sure that it has a Ethernet function in setup, some older versions don't) only requires a OTG USB to Ethernet dongle (I used a OTG cable and USB to Ethernet dongle). Dave's Mixing Station Pro is what I would use for tablet work. Currently I use a laptop PC since I don't have a Windows tablet.  As far as charging the iPad or any other tablet forget it too many complications and I never had much luck with the dual USB A cables. Get a tablet that can last thru the Gig with a full charge.
The fixed IP only setup is currently running and good so far (12 hrs). Even if that's a workaround I would use it only as a last resort. FYI the Apple Express was never known as a great WiFi router (low power = distance).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 06:54:44 PM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

LeeSteel

  • Super Lee
  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: Newington, Connecticut
  • Posts: 111
    • Lee Steel
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 07:15:32 PM »
I have the "official" Apple Camera Connect Kit. Just stating that it doesn't work.
My Apple Airport Express WiFi has been perfect in every location. Even connecting the iPad outdoors from 100ft.
For my new setup, I will have an ethernet cable from the router to the MK18, a charger cable connected to the iPad and a USB recording to my MacBook running Cubase Elements 10
Plug up one ear and make it mono!

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 01:26:05 AM »
As I understand it you will be controlling the XR18 (MK18?) with the iPad (version ?) over WiFi (5 GHz). Recording and playback on MacBook via USB. That combo should work just fine. It however takes a lot more than the CCK from Apple for the wired hookup to an iPad.  All need to be the right type. Without knowing the hookup and all the parts involved I can't really comment. Apple also has the habit of changing things without notification.
When in doubt KISS

LeeSteel

  • Super Lee
  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: Newington, Connecticut
  • Posts: 111
    • Lee Steel
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 01:40:10 AM »
Most likely a powered USB hub. One extra piece I donít want to deal with. I have a large iPad Pro.
Plug up one ear and make it mono!

WK154

  • Door #3
  • Master
  • *****
  • Location: Valencia CA
  • Posts: 2161
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 05:01:13 AM »
They have since my tests about 5 yrs ago come out with a Lightning to Ethernet dongle that may even work.
https://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Ethernet-Yvelines-Converter-Connection/dp/B075TYL5J6/ref=asc_df_B075TYL5J6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241963357402&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12878487569609598776&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031169&hvtargid=pla-446159633011&psc=1
At least that's the claim. No bets on iOS12 etc. Seem to work on iOS10 and 11. Still no charging capability but for a short gig it should work.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 05:21:25 AM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

LeeSteel

  • Super Lee
  • Padawan
  • ***
  • Location: Newington, Connecticut
  • Posts: 111
    • Lee Steel
Re: A gaggle of Turkeys??
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 12:17:06 PM »
I found one that has lightning (charge), ethernet, and USB.  I'm gonna try this one out.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lightning-To-RJ45-Ethernet-LAN-Network-USB-Card-Reader-Cord-Adapter-For-iPhone-X/382588034761?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Now if I could just stream 18 individual WAV files to network attached storage, I could eliminate the need to bring the laptop.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 12:26:03 PM by LeeSteel »
Plug up one ear and make it mono!