Author Topic: DL32r skips when I record  (Read 9483 times)

musicman7722

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DL32r skips when I record
« on: April 04, 2018, 09:26:49 PM »
Friends
I decided to have a go at the recording feature of the 32r.  I popped in a new 64gig flash drive.  When into the recording section and formatted it.  I was playing some music on channel 25 so I selected "A" and all 32 tracks then hit record.  I made about a minute recording then stopped it, waited and selected "B" and hit play.  For about 5 seconds it sounded great then it just starting skipping like a bad record the whole way through.

As it was a wave file I opened it with Audacity and it skipped there as well.

The 32r is sitting quietly on a work bench with no vibrations anywhere.

Help :(

dpdan

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 10:04:39 PM »
I would say the hard drive is bad, even if it's new :(

Weogo

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 01:48:20 PM »
Hi Musicman,

A couple firmware updates ago Mackie improved recording abilities on the DL32R,
so make sure you are using the most current firmware.

I have found some media doesn't work well with the DL32R.
Try different USB sticks, SSD and spinning hard drives.
I'm using a Sandisk SSD that connects with a short USB cable.

Good health,  Weogo



musicman7722

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 04:28:37 PM »
I will check but I think I am using the most up to date version of the software.

Thank you

musicman7722

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 07:31:43 PM »
I used a Western Digital USB drive and it worked fine and recorded the entire night

The great thing about being able to record on the fly is that I was able to record each song individually.

In fact during sound check the keyboard player was a bit skeptical about how he sounded.  So as he played rocket man and sang it I recorded it.  The I motioned to him to come out front and played it back.  He was amazed and liked the sound.

Wow thank you Mackie :)

ToH2002

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2018, 09:32:56 PM »
Friends
I decided to have a go at the recording feature of the 32r.  I popped in a new 64gig flash drive.  When into the recording section and formatted it.  I was playing some music on channel 25 so I selected "A" and all 32 tracks then hit record.  I made about a minute recording then stopped it, waited and selected "B" and hit play.  For about 5 seconds it sounded great then it just starting skipping like a bad record the whole way through.

As it was a wave file I opened it with Audacity and it skipped there as well.

Normal USB thumb drives are just too slow to deal with the onslaught of a full 32 track recording. They'll maybe cache the first minute (as you described), but then they'll not be able to write everything onto flash storage as fast as new stuff comes in - the skipping you hear is your flash drive first hiccupping and then screaming for mercy...

So you'll definitely need something that can process its input faster. I haven't had any problems with classic USB hard disk drives yet, but they are definitely more vulnerable to vibrations, so if you have your DL32 on a busy stage, I'd suggest you get an SSD USB drive (more costly, but almost immune to vibrations).

You can use USB thumb drives to record or play back stereo with no problems, but for serious multi-track recording, they're just too slow - it's just the technology inside...

Cheers,

Torsten

WK154

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 11:00:39 PM »
Stating that USB is too slow for 32 channels is not being informed. What is a "normal USB thumb drive"? V3.1 Super-speed + is specked at 10 Gbits/sec and 3.0 at 5.0 Gbits/se. more than enough to handle 32 channels at ~50Mbits/sec. Sort of like comparing a VW Super beetle to a Ferrari F1. You then state that a USB SSD is OK for the job, Really! V2.1 sticks probably won't work unless it's a real V2.1 High Speed (480 Mbits/sec). Keep in mind that Specs and real speed differ greatly. A speed check would be in order. Oh, does Mackie even spec their port? Then there is that USB driver that is in your system! Not so simple is it.
When in doubt KISS

ToH2002

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 02:29:14 AM »
Stating that USB is too slow for 32 channels is not being informed. What is a "normal USB thumb drive"? V3.1 Super-speed + is specked at 10 Gbits/sec and 3.0 at 5.0 Gbits/se. more than enough to handle 32 channels at ~50Mbits/sec. Sort of like comparing a VW Super beetle to a Ferrari F1. You then state that a USB SSD is OK for the job, Really! V2.1 sticks probably won't work unless it's a real V2.1 High Speed (480 Mbits/sec). Keep in mind that Specs and real speed differ greatly. A speed check would be in order. Oh, does Mackie even spec their port? Then there is that USB driver that is in your system! Not so simple is it.

OK, a bit less adrenaline and aggression, please...

I'm not uninformed - I wasn't stating that USB is too slow but that the typical USB thumb drive is too slow - and that's not because of the speed of USB, but of its internal speed of writing to flash storage. That's why I recommended a hard drive (HDD) or an SSD drive - because their internal writing speed is far superior to the garden-variety thumb drive.

When recording 32 channels, you create a data stream of around 4.6-5 MB per second. One of the more common USB 2.0 sticks, the Sandisk Cruzer 64 GB, can only write 3,25 MB per second. Now if the DL32 can't write the data to the drive at a fast enough rate, it will probably just drop chunks of the wave file while the drive isn't ready and only continue writing when the drive is ready again. Since the audio stream has since moved on, audio gets lost.That's what creates the glitches.

Yes, there are faster flash USB drives that can write 10MB per second and more, so it could be possible to keep up with the stream, but the problem here is that they'll realize that speed ON AVERAGE, so you can't be sure that there isn't a temporary hiccup where the writing speed will drop below 4.5 MB/s, creating glitches. So using flash drives for serious 32-channel recording is not something I'd recommend. If you really have a very fast flash drive, you should be sure that you test its long-term performance in advance of any serious recording.

A hard disk drive can write about 50-160 MB/sec, depending on its rotation speed (typically smaller portable hard drives don't run the 7200 rpm that higher-performance internal drives do) and other factors. A current SSD drive will even have a writing speed of around 500 MB/s. So these drives have definitely enough writing performance to easily keep up with the data flow from the DL32R, with a wide safety margin - that's why I say that they are OK for the job (because they won't get choked by the speed of incoming data).

It has nothing to do with the USB speed, so all the noise about USB V3.1, 3.0 or 2.1 isn't helpful at all here. USB speed is only the TRANSFER rate between the connected devices. What is the choking point here is the writing speed at the end of the transfer - sort of like the Ferrari F1 being stuck in a traffic jam...

In real life terms, USB 2.0 data transfer performance is around 35 MB/s, so definitely enough to transfer a 32 channel data stream. Therefore I'd assume Mackie has built a standard USB 2.0 port into the DL32R - no need to spend more on components if you don't need higher performance, right?  But all relevant USB3 external drives will work on a USB 2 connection (at USB 2 speeds), so yes, an external SSD drive could be a good solution to record on.

And not at all sure what you mean with the "USB driver that is in [my] system"? The only relevant communication here is between the DL32R and the USB drive - my system doesn't come into this at all.

So it actually is simple: any USB drive (2.0 and higher) that is internally capable of sustaining a writing speed above 5 MB/s (without ever dropping below it) is fit to do the job.

I recommended an SSD drive for busy / vibrating stages, because a hard disk (with rotating platters) has a mechanism built in that will park the read/write heads on an unused area when it senses stronger vibrations - to avoid so-called head-crashes, which can cause unrecoverable data loss. During this time, the drive will not be able to write data, so again writing speed will momentarily drop below 5MB/s - glitches will occur. An SSD drive has no moving parts, therefore is not as sensitive to vibrations.

Cheers, peace, love and good vibrations,

Torsten

musicman7722

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2018, 02:44:47 PM »
Thank you all.  Can anybody recommend a USB drive that will operate consistantly at the speed necessary?

TY

Chris

ToH2002

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 03:24:58 PM »
I assume your Western Digital Drive is a USB hard disk drive - correct? In that case, unless your stage vibrates wildly, you should be good to go - and your experience with it seems to confirm this.

I run a middle-of-the-road Toshiba USB2 hard disk drive, and it hasn't let me down yet in 3 years.

Unfortunately, I can't give a suggestion for a USB SSD drive - haven't seen the need to invest yet...

Cheers,

Torsten

dpdan

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2018, 08:31:07 AM »
I have a Sandisk SSD and use it all the time with the DL32R and no more skipping and unreliable recording sitting too close to subwoofer cabinets.

Tons of space for many 32 track recordings.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sandisk-extreme-500-240gb-external-usb-3-0-portable-ssd-black/4290140.p?skuId=4290140

WK154

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 05:49:50 AM »
Torsten,
This website could use a little more adrenaline and less interpretation of “un-informed” as aggression.
 I did ask what you consider a “typical” or “garden variety” thumb drive to be. The manufacturers don’t advertise under these descriptions. You mentioned a USB drive Sandisk Cruzer 64 GB a generic family name with quite a few models and speed ratings. Not too useful along with the data rate (3.25 MB/s) that suited your argument.
Actual sequential write test values certainly vary quite a bit hence the need to get real values for each drive instead of the advertised ones.  Since the USB 3 spec was released in Nov. 2008 that’s 9+ years ago I doubt if any manufacturer is designing for a V 2.0 product today. Most don’t even manufacture them anymore.  Since V3 is to be backward compatible with V2 we need to be realistic when buying today’s products including dealing with counterfeit versions. Real world test have shown the USB V2 to be ~10-20 MB/s slower with the same V3.0 device. That’s not irrelevant. The half duplex (V2) to pseudo full duplex (v3) handshaking is a major factor in this.  The Flash memory speeds and sizes have significantly changed over 9 years and are combined with today’s flash controllers. Interfacing with the USB data stream and the Flash memory is the job of the Flash Controller. Yes that driver is there both in the DL32 (iPad) and the thumb drive. That’s the “System” I am referring to, to remove any confusion. Mackie I believe was somewhat short sighted by only providing a V2 USB port. Cost is a wash.
Since I don’t own a DL32 several questions remain unanswered. Can the iPad/MF handle exFat or can it only deal with Fat32 file size and is it crippled aka Microsoft after W98 to 32 GB? Formatters exist that can format USB drives to the original 2 Terabyte limit. Fat32 file size unfortunately remains at 4GB.
SSD drives will certainly do the job but it's like driving a Ferrari in a 25 MPH school zone, impressive  :-)
Cheers
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 03:52:15 PM by WK154 »
When in doubt KISS

ToH2002

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 12:09:58 PM »
Last reply, then I'm going to leave this topic alone...

Calling someone's post "un-informed" is at the very least confrontational - and to me, impolite. Nuff said here.

Next: you state that you don't even own a DL32, so why really get into the debate - and with some very confusing assumptions? I am not sure why you write about the iPad connecting to USB or MasterFader dealing with exFAT etc?. It is the DL32R connecting directly to a USB drive, not an iPad. The iPad is only remote-controlling the DL32R - it has no connection whatsoever with the USB drive. This is different from the DL1608, where recording takes place on the iPad. Should not be confused here.

And why throw all that technical jargon about USB specs, versions, flash controllers etc around when the only key question is: what drive should the OP use to avoid getting glitches caused by the drive not being fast enough? Not sure what you are trying to prove here...

I stand by my statement, based on experience (with the actual DL32R!), that the safe bet to avoid glitches when recording is to use a HDD or SSD drive and avoid thumb/flash drives.

Period and out!

Cheers,

Torsten

WK154

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 03:21:39 PM »
OK so you're informed with bad information that you would like to pass along. The OP ask about Thumb drives not SSD or HD's so let stay on topic. We don't have enough information to give a definitive answer about his thumb drive. As to the division of labor between MF and DL32 only Mackie has that answer both (DL32 & iPad) however are involved in recording. Yes the USB output is via the DL32. There are plenty of thumb drives available that will work just fine without your FUD.
When in doubt KISS

JohnMHoyt

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Re: DL32r skips when I record
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2018, 03:15:48 PM »
boys boys boys....     you play nice now! =) =)

I've used some of the cheapest USB3.0 HDDs out there to record VERY reliably.  I have used a "thumb drive" exactly once because I record wayyyy too much, 2-4 hours a day with 20-24 channels....  I fill up 500GB and 1TB drives left and right.  Got about 8 of them here filled.   Shame I cannot look on them and see the date of the recording, because my DL32R's time stamp is off by, oh a few MONTHS....

Anyway...  Here's a track recorded at a rehearsal of my singer's other band last week on a Sans Disk Cruzer 16GB stick that I had with me.   Nothing special about it, but hey, only 8 channels or so recorded, so NOT that much throughput.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnQuSj9Q1r8