Author Topic: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas  (Read 2154 times)

WK154

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 08:39:28 PM »
For those of you unfamiliar with all the 802.11 specs here is a grouping  relating to the frequency range and the typical disclaimers provided by manufacturers. This one is from Netgear.

IEEE® 802.11 b/g/n/ax 2.4GHz
IEEE® 802.11 a/n/ac/ax 5.0GHz

Netgear " Maximum wireless signal rate derived from IEEE standard 802.11 specifications. Actual data throughput and wireless coverage will vary with network conditions and environmental factors, including volume of network traffic, building materials and construction, and network overhead, lower actual data throughput rate and wireless coverage. Up to 1300 Mbps wireless speeds achieved on AC1750 when connecting to other 802.11ac 1300 Mbps devices. NETGEAR makes no express or implied representations or warranties about this product’s compatibility with any future standards."

This points to an obvious bottleneck, the mixers 10/100 Mps speed connected to over 1000 Mps wireless connection. That's 10x faster than the mixer. Fortunately most AP's buffer the messages sufficiently not to loose them. I hope that you now understand my age old request (5 + yrs.) for the Manufacturers to go to 10/100/1000 Mps chips at no additional cost to them (possibly even savings). Lack of Engineering talent seems to exist.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 08:51:26 PM by WK154 »
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dpdan

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2019, 05:45:54 AM »
I will not insinuate that I know more about routers than some folks here because I don't,
but what I can tell you with 100% truth is this... I am going on five years with my first Mackie DL32R and I have done around 350 plus shows/events with it.
I have always used the same Apple Airport Express router, in fact,,, most of the time it lives sitting inside the SKB case above the DL32R along with an ADJ DMX Bridge and five Sennheiser wireless receivers.

Yes there have been a few times and I mean only a few times in all these years that I have lost a connection because I was just way too far away... after placing the Express router on top of the SKB case I am all good. 

The reliability of that little router is ABSOLUTELY STUNNING and mind boggling.

I did a job this past July fourth and walked well over 800 feet away from the DL32R sitting on the stage in a metal bandstand and had no problems or dropouts.
It probably has switched automatically between 2.4 and 5 Ghz many many times like Wynnd's but I didn't know or care.

just sayin'
 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 05:27:33 AM by dpdan »

SteveB

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 10:02:12 AM »
I have to say I know nothing about the intricacies of WiFi and the different bands. I have only ever used the Apple Express. I read all the reviews when I purchased and over nearly 3 years it has been as solid as a rock. Yes it has lost connection but rarely and I've always been able to get it back (and only ever a problem in 2 locations). I would not hesitate to recommend and have done so to many, even for those mixers with built in WiFi. It's not ht cheapest but I consider it an investment that was well worth it.   

WK154

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 07:17:25 PM »
I'm glad that two of you have had great luck with the Airport Express but why would you recommend a solution that has now been discontinued for almost a year and hasn't been updated for 7 years? This business moves much faster and responds to issues that exist such as overcrowding of the network and connection reliability with newer technology.
My view of this is that you're going to Vegas to be players while I would rather be the Casino owner  :)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 11:07:16 PM by WK154 »
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dpdan

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2019, 05:37:20 AM »
Even though Apple has indeed discontinued the production of WiFi routers, it is evident that they no longer desire to compete in the router business. Regardless of new technology, it doesn't change the fact that some people have dropout issues, and isn't it ironic that those people are not using an Apple router. Those of us who have hundreds and hundreds of jobs/events under our belt with flawless performance, it only makes sense that we recommend what has been fantastic for us.

I will put my little Apple Airport Express up against any router... and it may have limited signal strength compared to some units available right now, but I pretty much live by the rule...

if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
   
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 05:41:15 AM by dpdan »

WK154

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2019, 08:49:12 AM »
Dan I agree with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" up to a point. So for those interested in one of many opinions by people that do this for a living I suggest you read this. BTW that was a typo (800ft) about the range, I can believe 80ft. There are also lots of other WiFi routers tested. Take your pick.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/31800-apple-airport-express-2012-reviewed?limitstart=0
Since it also requires two devices to communicate the weaker one wins out. Apple also doesn't even meet the offical /n spec.
Both of you have had connections drop so that makes you lucky it didn't happen at a critical time like the OP. The OP started out with a Airport unit when it first appeared. Just sayin'
State tune for the next innovation by Apple the Applecart (electric car), watch out Elon Musk  :) . That's to replace the router business.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:36:19 PM by WK154 »
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dpdan

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2019, 06:06:33 PM »
as much as it may seem that I am a tree hugging, Apple lover I'm not :)

Here is a crappy video taken with my iPhone while holding the iPad in the other hand, unfortunately,
it does not prove that I still had control this far out, because I didn't show the iPad...... and I'm not sure the real distance either, but you can see the stage way way back there  :)

It is possible that the fact that the router was up high on the front edge of the stage allowed such a stable connection.

I won't be buying a car from Apple :)
 
https://youtu.be/PllxNCqp_II
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 06:09:21 PM by dpdan »

Wynnd

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2019, 06:22:36 PM »
If the guy with the light blue shirt in the beginning of your video is 20 feet away, then the stage is about 145 feet away.  If he’s really 30 feet away, then the stage would be 210 feet away.  Still 145 feet is pretty good for a portable router and matches my own experience. 

WK154

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2019, 08:16:50 PM »
Actually I figured it out. Dan walked 800ft in a circle that gave him 127ft distance from the router which is close enough to Wynnd's eyeball estimate of145ft  :) . Dan good thing your not hugging that Apple tree. Wynnd's stop loss at 25% should have kicked in by now. Apple is serious about Steve Jobs dream that he never got to realize, an Applecart. They leased an abandoned military base in the Bay area and their hiring automotive not audio engineers in Berlin according to the rumor mill  :)
When in doubt KISS

Wynnd

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2019, 01:48:36 AM »
Guess I mentioned that some of my IRAs are in Apple stock.  I'm not unhappy.  I bought at $20 a share and they have split 1 into 14.  I'm not rich but that really helped my portfolio.  My eyeballing was for the distance to the guy in the light blue shirt.  From there it was all trigonometry.  (Estimating people on stage were 6 feet tall and that the guy in the blue shirt would be about 10 inches in head height that was about the same in the video.  Basically 7.2 times the distance to blue guy.  Real nice crowd, but I'd bet not all were listening to the band.

dpdan

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2019, 05:45:46 AM »
well, isn't that special  (church lady)  :)



You are correct, it is just a wedding band, and they are there till the fireworks display begins at dark, that's when the system really gets used with music synced to the display.   
145 feet is way less because my DC16 was 90 feet from the stage because my yellow 12/3 power cord is one hundred feet and I always use it all.



none of this matters because I know how great it works,, I also know that there are routers that provide seriously better distance than the Apple stuff, just sad that the Express is the only router that has Airplay... that really is a cool feature,
WK, if I was to buy a new router with massive POWER  :) what would you suggest, I trust your judgement.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:59:58 AM by dpdan »

WK154

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2019, 08:08:10 PM »
Well Dan in your case that's a loaded question. You might have noticed only a few Axis systems being considered here. From the picture I see your power cord and the necessary Ethernet cable for Dante going to the stage. The Airport hockey puck can be at the DL32R or the DC16 end. I think you referred to it being on stage with the DL32R. Since the Dante network is nothing more than a Ethernet based wired network and the card IIRC is a 4 port switch you have configuration choices. In any case all your wired connections are 1Gps hooked to an 10/100 Mbps AP the AE. This certainly limits the network. Power is not the main concern although it certainly factors in the SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) the important factor. Your typical distance is not an issue even with the Airport Express (AE). Traffic would be my main concern. Since commands are limited to 100Mbps (theoretical but well known to be more typically 50% or less) a AP with 1Gps would be a better match. Higher speeds and directional antenna technology would be  a much better choice. Again the weak link limits the network along with all that backward compatibility causing overhead. Beacon frames are send out at 1Mbps  :( .  The /ax spec will be finalized this quarter barring any more political bickering. All the current /ax routers are of course not final but will mostly be firmware updated as in the past (Bug fixes included). A tip on your current use of the AE is to point the AP at your iPads in the vertical plane, since the antenna are on the PC board unlike the Extreme. It will help slightly. The /ax spec addresses most of the issues you will find at gigs. You of course are wired to the DL32R so no real concerns about WiFi except for those personal mix phones or if you walk around with a iPad. Basically how I now setup my M-Air mixers (no internal AP). I currently use a Netgear R7900 monster with no know disconnects ever. Multiple and wider data streams will also help as you add more control surfaces as in the R7900 with 3 streams. Currently the /ax is on the bleeding edge so be aware of this along with the $350-$400 cost. By 2020 it should be mainstream and lower cost.
Cheers
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dpdan

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2019, 09:10:42 PM »
thanks WK, I know about the Express' antennas laying down when it is sitting flat and as you said would help (a little) if I was having difficulty connecting which I never do. 

I was looking at the R6700 but won't need it or any other router until I begin to see the Express, or my Extreme no longer useable....


WK154

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2019, 09:58:47 PM »
As long as you use the DC16 Dante link your at 1Gbps wired not WiFi so what do you use WiFi for? The R6700 is certainly an upgrade to any AE not sure about the Extreme (what version).
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Wynnd

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Re: DL32r or Router locks up in busy areas
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2019, 11:16:55 PM »
I've gotten very wary of running long cords where an audience might trip over them.  Don't even care about the colors.  Don't know about the Dante power draw, but if you could run it off of battery/inverter power and wireless that becomes a serious improvement in safety and should make your insurance happier.  Wireless control along with ability to save different configurations were my primary reason for going to the DL1608.  Never regretted getting rid of the 100', 16 channel out, 4 channel return snake.  I do like having a small table and chair in the audience for a mixing position.  People don't seem to bother me when mixing on the iPad.