Author Topic: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?  (Read 335 times)

Wynnd

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Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« on: November 10, 2019, 11:23:42 PM »
What if MF 5.1 works perfectly on a Windows Computer and not on a Mac, should Mackie release MF 5.1 for windows and not for Mac?  I would think that's a good idea.  NOTE:  I don't know what MF 5.1's status is.  I don't know what works great and what doesn't.  I'm pretty sure if something works for the legacy mixers, they would probably prefer to only work on one type of controller than to not get it soon.  We are sure ready for its release and only Mackie knows how close or far that is.  They promised a lot with this update.  I'm not surprised it is coming slower than originally expected.  Cross platform sounds so much easier than it actually is.


nedorama

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2019, 12:10:48 AM »
I vote no. A partial release means only parts are working, and distracts the team from a GM release of the real thing. People are beta testing 5.1 - just not us.

If Mackie were to release a alpha or beta of 5.1 and list all the known issues per platform, it becomes self-selecting - only bleeding edge and early adopters will use, and regular users will stay away and not complain to Mackie.

Public betas also allow for more real-world data, especially for all the different flavors of Android devices and windows computers. Add in automatic data to be sent back to Mackie on crashes, and you have a much bigger testing platform in terms of data.

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Wynnd

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2019, 01:45:10 AM »
Very good points.  I remember the complaints of White Noise kicking in without warning on the ipad channel.  I personally never experienced it, but after enough complaints, Mackie took on fixing it and pretty much rewrote the entire app and that problem never raised it head again.   Personally, I don't understand what caused it, but with it gone, not much of a reason to think about it anymore.  (Folks, that was a long time ago.  It was fixed when the fader controls changed shape.  MF 2?) 

WK154

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2019, 08:27:43 PM »
Just to keep things correct about the historic "White Noise". You were right that Mackie denied it as their problem for about a year, pointing the finger at Apple  Many of us including myself worked the issue during that time with little response from Mackie's BenO. It was fixed by a release of V3.0 but no explanation was ever given by Mackie or BenO, even though I requested one. Clearly a bug that was marginal and difficult to duplicate but devastating for Live Sound. With a little co-operation this would never have been as big a problem as it turned out to be. Mackie I'm certain lost a lot of sales because of this and the readily available alternatives from B.....
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WK154

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 01:04:02 AM »
On the subject of providing a 5.1 release for the various platforms I agree with you on a partial release. Any bugs found can certainly be handled for each of the various platforms and the bugs will no doubt vary with the individual platforms as we have already seen in just the iPad/Android release of 5.0. I see no point in releasing them simultaneously. Had Mackie fixed the problem of running under the Bluetooth emulator BlueStacks 4 you would have already had a PC version. There is even a version for the Mac. My X-Air app works just fine on the XR18/12 and M18R/M12R units. Creativity at Mackie is waning  :(.
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Wynnd

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2019, 05:04:59 AM »
On the older DL mixers, even an iPad release of MF 5.1 would make them much happier.  I really like this mixer and hate to see people passing on it for MF 5.1 not being out yet.  Some will not be happy without the Windows or Mac version.   Still I'd like to see one version released even if the other versions are ready yet.  My take.

dpdan

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2019, 06:59:41 PM »
I want to go on record by saying.....
Mackie does not have to offer any updates to existing customers, however, we kinda expect these updates.
Any particular company who makes equipment based around "technology" should expect to lose customers to other companies who do offer and provide "FREE" updates.
I am thrilled beyond belief with my DL32R!!!!

And I eagerly wait for this new update.


« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 07:01:42 PM by dpdan »

nedorama

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2019, 09:11:21 PM »
I want to go on record by saying.....
Mackie does not have to offer any updates to existing customers, however, we kinda expect these updates.
Any particular company who makes equipment based around "technology" should expect to lose customers to other companies who do offer and provide "FREE" updates.
I am thrilled beyond belief with my DL32R!!!!

And I eagerly wait for this new update.

Well said.

I would also offer that the same people that kept asking for Android support, Windows support, Mac Support and Kindle Support - well, you're the problem here and the reason the updates are taking so long. If the Mackie team were still focused on iOS only, we would have a steady stream of updates from the small team there. But as soon as everyone wants any Android tablet to work, you've just screwed your development team over big time. Having spent the time to deal with this software development at 2 companies, it's more than 2x the work. QC on Android is a PITA.

I wish Mackie had just said "Nope, get an iPad" and left it at that.

So if you're angry that Mackie's been delayed in releasing 5.1 for some of us and you don't have an iPad, you're partially to blame...

food for thought.
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Nedorama
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WK154

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2019, 11:29:52 PM »
Yes you are all correct if you want Mackie to be non-competitive and eventually go out of business. I don't want that! As far as the internal software team is concerned I believe a lot is farmed out based on past history. The talent pool at Mackie including management needs to be refreshed. Mackie has had spurts of brilliance in the past and then there was no follow thru. Resting on your laurels and letting others pass you by is more their strategy and that needs to be eliminated.
When in doubt KISS

JohnMHoyt

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 03:36:05 PM »
Apple tablets are simply not something sound companies and churches DO NOT want to invest in. Not when there are far more affordable options. 
So, if Mackie wants to lose A LOT of sales to other companies who do support the other options, they should just keep on doing what they are doing.

I'm in dozens of churches and venues, and they are using the other guys simply because of the Apple vs Android expense.  Case in point, I now have a spare DL32R because a church I originally convinced to get one, just dumped it because their praise team members don't own iThings, and they were tired of supplying them and supporting them. It was cheaper to replace the mixer with something else and by inexpensive android tablets. They paid <100 bucks for their tablets this time.  Instead of over twice that.   Paid for the cost of the mixer they said just to buy everything new.

And no, Mackie should NOT release a partially completed product.  Not in my opinion.   
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 03:41:56 PM by JohnMHoyt »

nedorama

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 03:45:43 PM »
It was cheaper to replace the mixer with something else and by inexpensive android tablets. They paid <100 bucks for their tablets this time.  Instead of over twice that.   Paid for the cost of the mixer they said just to buy everything new.

And this is exactly the challenge for developers. Cheap Android tablet owners expect the exact same performance, regardless of their components, OS flavor, as an iPad, yet for a developer it's a nightmare to have to expand coding, testing, etc. to cover the gamut of cheap android tablets that may or may not be compliant. So yes, they may work and be less expensive, but in the end it adds cost and overhead to Mackie, which means longer delays for all of us. I don't blame you or the churches for wanting to spend less, but it's important to understand what effect that has on the developer - doesn't matter if they're coding in-house or using outside teams, it's more work.
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Nedorama
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JohnMHoyt

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2019, 03:51:32 PM »
Cheap android operators GET that performance too.  These churches are using brand b of mixer and have ZERO complaints with their users on their cheap android devices.  ZERO.  NONE.
But boy they have complaints when a screen gets broken on their iPads and it costs more than a cheap android to fix them.  And HUGE complaints when it comes time to replace/upgrade, which is happening now due to operating system changes, batteries dying off, etc.

Wynnd

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2019, 04:06:05 PM »
I've owned four iPads and only the first had a minor corner crack that had no effect on usage or functionality and that one I had owned since 2013 and it went to the new owner of my DL1608 with a still functional battery in January this year.  I have replaced the battery in my 2010 MacBook once, but I don't find myself replacing batteries on Apple products very often.  (And when I did replace the MacBook battery, I was still getting more than two hours use on a charge but having gotten more than 10 hours previously, I was feeling cheated.)  I'm still using the 2010 MacBook as I'm typing on it right now. I don't own an Android device, though my Wife's phone is one.  This isn't a complaint about Android, but a solid vote for iPads.  They work, they are stable.  And because they provide a lot of what I need, I take an iPad on my Motorcycle trips instead of my MacBook.

JohnMHoyt

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2019, 07:09:29 PM »
I've owned four iPads and only the first had a minor corner crack that had no effect on usage or functionality and that one I had owned since 2013 and it went to the new owner of my DL1608 with a still functional battery in January this year.  I have replaced the battery in my 2010 MacBook once, but I don't find myself replacing batteries on Apple products very often.  (And when I did replace the MacBook battery, I was still getting more than two hours use on a charge but having gotten more than 10 hours previously, I was feeling cheated.)  I'm still using the 2010 MacBook as I'm typing on it right now. I don't own an Android device, though my Wife's phone is one.  This isn't a complaint about Android, but a solid vote for iPads.  They work, they are stable.  And because they provide a lot of what I need, I take an iPad on my Motorcycle trips instead of my MacBook.

You are one user, who takes care of their gear.   A church or a sound company has many users, some of which don't care about other people's gear.  It's expensive to fix a screen, it's expensive to replace a battery, it's expensive to buy a new one, or to upgrade to when your OS is no longer supported.   That is why you are seeing less and less iPads and more Androids.
In my line of work, I deal with hundreds of users across many companies, providing IT for them... And I've watched the Apple products fading considerably in business too, for some of the same reasons.  Why invest in an expensive iPad when an inexpensive android will work with o365 just as well?   

I personally have 8 Apple iPads here at my office/studio.  Ranging from very old to the latest and greatest.  I don't care of them. I grab a little fire hd8 to browse on more often than not. It's lighter, and it runs my leviton software far better when I need it.   Really, the only thing I use the ipads for now is the Mackie, and only because I have to.

I've got some Apple computers around, super high end, but no longer use those either unless I am working on an issue a client is having and need a test bed.

Some examples of why Apple just is absolutely horrible...     Let's start with the company who had new Apple Macbook Pros that were part of "flexgate".    We had 40 some odd computers with the problem. Apple refused to acknowledge it existed for months and months!!!!!!  The company spent plenty of time with those geniuses.. hahahha    I had one of these computers too - I fixed it myself....  But if I had touched them for my client, it would have voided the warranty for all it was worth.   They shelved them and they sat there for months while their employees happily used cheap windows PCs.    Then they finally got them fixed when Apple FINALLY a year later said they would fix them.

iPhone battery repair is stupid...  Apple doesn't want to fix old ones... they want to sell you a new one - so now, on several models, if you attempt to replace the battery or screen, you get a compatibility warning, thanks to Apple being proprietary.   I've got clients with boxes of iPhones that they just replaced rather than take a chance on repair - but they replaced them with android phones.

You will never convince me that apple is better - not when I work with them every day and see the expenses my clients incur....

I can replace a standard 15.6" windows based notebook screen for <150 bucks including labor. I just paid 400 dollars for an apple panel.   
My cost was 200 bucks for a screen for a 21.5" iMac.. and a good bit of labor to replace it.    Compared to replacing the whole monitor for a client with a 27" one for 160 dollars on a standard windows PC.

But back to these Mackies...  Businesses and churches know these things, apple products are expensive, and they also know they are not getting any better performance or longevity out of them, so they are buying Androids, and Windows based PCs... Why so as they replace those pricey apple things, why would they want to purchase or use a product that REQUIRED THEM?  Like Mackie DLs?

I know I don't want to, and will not do it again.   I don't want to replace an iPad that is aging, just to use it for running sound on a DL32R for a band or event that pays very little in the first place.   
Additionally, I won't purchase any mixer that locks me to one hardware vendor again. That was a huge error in judgement on my part.   


nedorama

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Re: Should Mackie release a partial MF 5.1?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2019, 08:27:15 PM »
Again, this isn't about what's better or worse for the end user. My whole point is that when you only support one OS, things are easier/faster for the developer. Mackie started with iOS and it's a much easier ecosystem for development. B*(&nger started with Android for their system. Once you expand and try to be all things to every OS, something's bound to give. In this case, it's lack of updates.

I'm speaking from the developer side as someone who has had to go through this with 2 different iOT items at two different companies. Even starting with the same Unity codebase, supporting 2 OS versions is more work than non developers realize. If I were to start over, I'd stay with apple only because of much less testing, same OS on all versions that are supported, etc. Nothing to do with which is better.
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Nedorama
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