Is anyone using SSD AudioTools or other RTA with the iPad and DL1608 ?

[Kevin]

Yeah, I know there were some threads on this in the old Mackie Forum and I was planning to re-read these old threads last weekend to see if maybe I can ditch my rack mount RTA, but noooooooo....

So anyway, sorry if you've answered this before - but is anyone using SSD AudioTools, Sinusoid AudioKit or other RTA with the iPad and DL1608?

Specifically - I already have a Rane rack mount RTA with a reference mic. I'm hoping to ditch the rack unit,  plug the mic into one of the DL1608 inputs, dock the iPad during the room EQ check, and have the RTA app use the DL1608 docking adapter to send out pink noise through the "iPad" channel and get the mic response back through the same input that Master Fader uses for recording. That way all I should need is the RTA software and dont need to go out and get another reference mic that works with the iPad in order to EQ the room.

edit > turns out that this doesnt quite work because there is no way to get the reference mic signal to the DL's 32 pin connector, without also running it through the mains (which would cause feedback), so you have to bring the reference mic signal out through either one of the auxes or the solo headphones out - and from there to the iPad mic input. So an adapter like this one is necessary: http://www.kvconnection.com/product-p/km-iphone-mic42-a22.htm

From what I have read, once the room has been EQ'ed, the iPad's internal mic should be good enough for identifying feedback frequencies, should they appear. 

Is this possible? Is anyone doing this, and does it work well enough to lose the rack mount RTA? It looks like some of the RTA software is a big improvement in functionality over my rack unit, but I dont want to buy another reference mic or have to use the built in iPad mic if I can help it.

It would be nice if I could split the iPad screen with Master Fader on one half and an RTA on the other - then no need to swipe between Master Fader and RTA. Swiping to Master Fader takes waaaay too long for MF to re-establish communication with the mixer, although that is something that should be easy enough to fix in a release

[RoadRanger]

Sounds like something they should add into Master Fader .

I use this app:
https://itunes.apple.com/ke/app/jl-audio-tools/id388648626

[Kevin]

Sounds like something they should add into Master Fader

I agree. From what I can tell from looking through the google cache of old threads, there are a few 3rd party iPad RTA apps that some members liked, but nothing that really does what I want without buying a lot of extra hardware. If I can find a reliable extender cable, then I think AudioTools is about as good as what I currently have for helping to tune for the room. Not really so much for helping to find feedback live because while the FFT is nice for telling you exactly the frequency that something is ringing, it doesnt help you find what input is the problem. On my old board, I ran the solo out to my rack RTA so that if I start to hear a ring I could start soloing the most likely suspect channels and often find the culprit before it got too bad. Sending the solo out to an FFT display instead would be much better, as you can often see a persistent ring on a FFT, even if its level is lower then everything around it... but no way to do this with 3rd party tools without a lot of jerry rigging.

So what I would really like to see in 1.5 is for Mackie to add just a single FFT block to their DSP code that is always fed by the solo, maybe with a variable time window.

On the iPad, when you hit the solo button for any channel or output, a 3x5 inch FFT display pops up over the slider area, showing the FFT output of the solo'ed channel or output. Touch any area outside the FFT display and the FFT window disappears. Touch any other solo button and that channel/output comes up in the FFT window. Touch inside the FFT window area and it pops to full screen, with the FFT on one half and the channel or output EQ (preferably parametric) on the other. This makes me probably 5X more effective on identifying the feedback source at the first start of a ring.

For ringing out the room, the LR output gets a solo button (which I admit seems non-intuitive, but it allows you to pull up the FFT and EQ window for the mains in a way that is consistent with everything else) and the DL would have an internal pink noise generator that is controlled by a button in the full screen FFT view. Since the iPad mics dont have good low frequency response, I dont really see an alternative to walking around with a reference mic - but since you also have the iPad, you can now walk around and have a much better idea of where the low frequency nodes and swells are, and now the EQ is already in your hands if you want to change something.

Something like that would kick my rack RTA's ass and would probably be relatively easy for Mackie to implement. Most DSP vendors already have canned FFT code blocks already available so most of the work would be on the iPad interface. Mackie gets the drop on berringer with a real useful new feature, I sell my rack RTA and pay off another chunk of my DL. Someone with an analog deck gets a sweet deal on a rack RTA. Everyone wins.

I use this app:
https://itunes.apple.com/ke/app/jl-audio-tools/id388648626

Yep, I've been using that one too. If I can get it to work reliably with the extender, then I'll probably spring for the full version to get the pink noise and FFT. That will be almost as good as what I have now, but not as good as the RTA that I want Mackie to put in v1.5

[RoadRanger]

Other sound apps I have loaded up:
Feedback Detector - Identifies the loudest frequency, maybe good for ringing out monitors.
FreqCounter - Similar to Detector except can show the five loudest.
UE SPL - Ultimate Ears SPL meter.
Decibel 10th - Yet another SPL meter.

If you only load up one make it the "JL Audio Tools" app .

[Kevin]

If you only load up one make it the "JL Audio Tools" app

Yep, cant beat the price. Also here are some test audio files that you can put on your iPad and send to the DL via Airplay for evaluating room response
http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtestsaudiotesttones_index.php

Its too bad that the iPad doesnt have a better mic, because then you would have a nice portable RTA that you can walk around the room with.

The iTest mic looks nice, but pricey
http://www.studiosixdigital.com/itestmic/itestmic.html

The UMIK-1 looks good and only 75 bucks. Not sure if it would work with my USB/30 pin cable. Anyone work with one of these?
http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

edit > Looks like Dayton Audio iMM-6 iDevice Calibrated Measurement Microphone is the cheapest option for a reference mic - 24 bucks delivered - got one on order
https://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-810
 
BTW - What happened to Greg C? IIRC, he was using the SSD Smaart plugin, which looks interesting, but Im not sure how useful it really is without a better iPad mic and some way to get test  tones back to the DL

[LeeSteel]

I have Audio Tools and Octave. Both are perfect for dialing in the wedges.

[Kevin]

I have Audio Tools and Octave. Both are perfect for dialing in the wedges.

Can you elaborate? Are you using the built in mic on the iPad? Do you swipe back and forth between MF and RTA/FFT on the iPad or do you run the RTA on an iPhone? Will the Pro version of AudioTools run in the background (one of the annoying things about their free version is that if you run the RTA and swipe to MF, when you swipe back you have to restart the RTA). Thanks.

[LeeSteel]

Both RTA and Octave are running in the background and allow you to use the 4-finger push up and change app in real time. I typically use them on my iPhone though. I like the graphics in Octave better but Audio Tools comes with SPL meter and other tools. I have also run both of these from my iPod Touch using a tiny plug-in mic that I bought on eBay.

[Kevin]

Here are a few more useful free RTA tools:

AKLite - This is a free version of Audio Kit FFT.  It has a nice FFT that shows the value of the loudest frequency. It doesnt have enough low frequency resolution to be useful for EQ'ing a room but there is more than enough mid and high resolution to be useful for ringing monitors. It should also be great for looking at inputs and aux outputs once my attenuator cable shows up. For some reason it displays upside down in landscape mode, but hey, its free! -  https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/aklite/id423519680   

iAnalyzer Lite - another free FFT tool. I dont like the display as much as AKLite but it has some interesting time domain analysis - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/ianalyzer-lite/id342456044

Test Tones - Plays test tones (pink noise and frequency sweeps) and Airplay enabled. Much easier to use than playing test tone files through iTunes  - https://itunes.apple.com/app/test-tones/id532639314

Now for the sad part (for me): These tools all work great independently, but AKLite,  iAnalyzer Lite and JL Audio Tools all kill the Airplay on my iPad. So if I am sending pink noise from my iPad to the DL, either from Test Tones or by playing test tone files with the default iPad music player, swiping to either of these three analyzer utilities kills the test signal source. So for now, I am still using my rack RTA to source the pink noise, although I am going to put some test tone files on my phone and see how that works out (not an iPhone, so I'll have to use the headphones out). If you have two iPads or an iPhone, then this shouldnt be a problem.

I'm not sure why AKLite,  iAnalyzer Lite and JL Audio Tools all kill the iPad's Airplay - I suspect that they may be trying to take control of the iPads music outputs and inputs, even though they really just need the inputs. I'm planning to do a little more investigation this morning. If anyone has any insight to share on this, I'd be much obliged.

Lee (or anyone else using Octave, Audio Tools or others) - do the paid versions of these tools also kill Airplay? I was looking at Octave in particular because a 1/12 octave RTA would be nice for EQing the room, and Octave looks to be the cheapest 1/12 octave RTA I could find - but I'd like to find something that wont kill Airplay, so I can do everything from my iPad. Same question for Audio Tools: Can you use the RTA or FFT without killing Airplay?

For anyone who is looking for some inexpensive RTA options, here are some of the ones that were recommended in the old forum discussions, plus a few others that I found. There are also a few much more pricey options available - these are just the budget ones. If there is something that I am missing (particularly any inexpensive 1/6 octave or higher resolution RTAs that play nicely with AirPlay), please add to the list:

JL Audio - 1/3 octave RTA - Free -  https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/jl-audio-tools/id388648626
Octave - 1/12 octave RTA with tap and hold - 4.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/octave-an-rta-for-the-iphone/id386083594
Analyzer - 1/1200 octave RTA with FFT - 14.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/analyzer/id454225351
AudioTools - 1/3 octave RTA with FFT, Smaart (as $50 in-app purchase) - 19.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/audiotools/id325307477
bs-spectrum - FFT - $3.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/app/bismark-bs-spectrum/id327802142
Audio Kit - FFT - 6.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/audio-kit/id376965050
Spectrum Analyzer - 1/6 octave RTA, FFT, Spectrograph - 14.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/spectrum-analyzer/id490078884
Octave RTA - 1/6 octave RTA - 4.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/octave-rta/id569156857
iAnalyzer - FFT and other tools - 19.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/app/ianalyzer/id335449113
iAudioTool - 1/6 octave RTA, FFT, spectrograph, tones, sweep - 6.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id580740399
PocketRTA HD - 1/6 octave RTA, FFT, spectrograph, tones - 39.99 - https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/pocketrta-hd-spectrum-analyzer/id378074484

[diggo]

Latest AudioTools (with or without Smaart) is much better now that it stays awake and keeps analyzing while Master Fader has the focus.
Makes it much easier to switch quickly between apps.

[Kevin]

The main issue that I have with AudioTools is that it doesnt support AirPlay - so if I want to go wireless, there is no way to get test signals back to the DL. None of the other RTA apps seem to support this either. AudioTools does have the ability to control a generator remotely if you have two IOS devices (which I dont - although playing around with audio apps on the iPad is making me seriously consider switching to an iPhone).

I've been playing around some more with RTA tools and music apps, and it appears that opening any of the free RTA or recording apps I have will shut down any free audio output app, whether the audio output app is running over Airplay, the 30 pin cable or the iPad's built-in speakers. The only music app I have that doesnt do this is GarageBand which, if background mode is enabled, can continue to play through the 30pin connector or speakers while any of the RTA tools are active. That suggests to me that (1) the issue is probably with audio handling in the music playing app, not the RTA app, (2) its possible to for a music playing app to be active in the background while another audio input app is active, but most do not handle this (besides Test Tones, and the default iPad music player, I also tried Planetary and OPlayerHD Lite)

Anyone have any insight as to what is going on here? Is anyone using a music player app, either free or otherwise, that supports AirPlay and DOESNT stop when an audio input app like AKLite or JL Audio RTA is opened? Any RTA apps, free or otherwise that wont kill the iPad default music player?

For now, I've just got some test tone files on my phone, which is a little clunky but works. I wouldnt mind spending a few bucks to be able to play test files from my iPad via AirPlay while using an RTA on the iPad, assuming that it is indeed possible to do this (without buying another iPad or iPhone)

[Kevin]

I had a look through the IOS developer library, and it looks like the main reason that these free iPad audio and analysis apps dont play very well together is that the default IOS "Audio Session" handling assumes that the application is doing both input and output. So even if an app only needs input (RTA/FFT) or output (music player), its just easier for the developer to use defaults and get both. Co-existing with other apps requires additional event and callback handling - so its less likely that this shows up in a free version. Supposedly if an app uses the defaults then IOS "handles" of the audio routing for the app, depending on whether a mic is plugged in vs the built in mic, knowing whether to use 30 pin I/O, AirPlay etc. If there was a way for a user to force IOS to connect certain apps to particular I/O interfaces, rather than IOS trying to figure it out for you,  based on what it thinks the app wants, that would be very useful, but would almost certainly require jailbreaking the iPad, which seems like a PIA.

On a more positive note, my attenuator cable showed up today and it works like a champ. Now I can send the solo bus from the headphones to the ipad mic input and see all my inputs and auxes with an RTA or FFT. I'm really liking the AKLite FFT tool for soloing inputs. The JL Audio RTA works well also. Swiping back and forth between MF and AKLite is not too bad, although it would be really nice to have an iPhone for running AKLite. Then you can move around a lot faster on Master Fader while keeping a steady visual on the solo bus. The attenuator cables come in a number of configurations. I already had some long 1/4 inch stereo phono cables on hand, so I went with this configuration of the attenuator:  http://www.kvconnection.com/product-p/km-iphone-mic42-a22.htm   If you want to keep your phones for the solo bus, just use a Y, put the attenuator after the Y and now you have phones and a nice visual for your solo bus. Its not quite as good as having a full wireless RTA, but definitely a step up from what I had. I'm looking forward to putting this to use.

[LeeSteel]

I have a suite of pink noise. Full spectrum and individual bands. I used Tango Remote to play them back from an attached iPod. You can change back and forth from MF to SSD or Octave but I found it easier to use SSD on my iPhone and MF on the iPad. Hope this isn't too confusing. I'm talking about 3 different devices.

[Kevin]

That makes sense. There are a lot more usable RTA options if you have two or more IOS devices. For now, I just have the iPad, although the additional RTA options are enough for me to strongly consider switching to an iPhone.

Even with a single IOS device, using an attenuator cable works great for running the solo bus to your RTA/FFT app. If you have the RTA running on your iPhone, then it would work even better because the iPhone becomes a RTA/FFT window into your solo bus while you are mixing off the DL